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Why so few engineers?


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@Ardid.7203 said:

@Leodon.1564 said:From the beginning, Engineer has remained my least favorite class cause I just don't like immobile turrets. I've heard Holosmith plays differently so my interest in the class has been piqued.

You know almost no engie build uses turrets (except healing turret, which is insta-blasted anyway), right?Scrapper doesn't use turrets, Core doesn't use turrets, Holo doesnt use turrets... The few static discharge builds that use rifle turret don't actually use the turret itself, only the Toolbelt Skill. Basically the only engies that play with immobile turrets are the AFK farmers...

Well Engies from the start were touted as the class with turrets and that theme never really jived with me. Sure, you can play the class without turrets but turrets are a big part of what defines the class. If you're not interested in using turrets, what reason would a new player have in choosing an Engie over a different class?

Your argument is sort of like saying I can play a Ranger without using a pet. If I didn't want to use a pet, why would I choose a class that has a pet as part of its core identity?

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engineers connected to "Turrets" whic in this game is the worst skill of all, the most useless of all, there u go the reason, engineers should connected between chemical and mechanical theme, but what I see here in this game, its more like An sorcerers in other MMORPG games, throwing bombs? same like throwing fireballs, Flamethrower? same like breathing fire, stun with electrical thingy? same like casting force lightning in star wars old republic..wanna know the most ridiculous one? throwing med kit on the ground and wait people run there to get a very small healing..is just a dumb sorcerers dressed as an engineer..

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@Leodon.1564 said:

@Leodon.1564 said:From the beginning, Engineer has remained my least favorite class cause I just don't like immobile turrets. I've heard Holosmith plays differently so my interest in the class has been piqued.

You know almost no engie build uses turrets (except healing turret, which is insta-blasted anyway), right?Scrapper doesn't use turrets, Core doesn't use turrets, Holo doesnt use turrets... The few static discharge builds that use rifle turret don't actually use the turret itself, only the Toolbelt Skill. Basically the only engies that play with immobile turrets are the AFK farmers...

Well Engies from the start were touted as the class with turrets and that theme never really jived with me. Sure, you can play the class without turrets but turrets are a big part of what defines the class. If you're not interested in using turrets, what reason would a new player have in choosing an Engie over a different class?

Your argument is sort of like saying I can play a Ranger without using a pet. If I didn't want to use a pet, why would I choose a class that has a pet as part of its core identity?

I'm super sorry, Leodon, but you are extremely wrong. Turrets were only one possible reason (and a wrong one) to choose Engie. As new players most choose engie because the technological theme. Others simply tried many professions and stayed with the more frenzy one. Some of us simply love the flamethrower.

While I understand in most games turrets are an integral and distinctive part of an "engineer" class, that is not the case on GW2. Turrets has always been optional for the Engie, even in the brief times they have been truly useful. In GW2 the distinctive and "integral"(quotes because how clunky is the mechanic) skills are the Kits. Because Kits engie has no weapon swap, because kits the toolbelt exist. Because Kits the Engie is known as a "piano" class. You can play without kits, but is not easy.

You can completely forgot about turrets. You can play without them since day 1. Most builds don't use them. Most players consider them dead skills.Turrets are NOT part of Engie's core identity. So, if you don't like "immobile turrets", you SHOULD BY ALL MEANS play Engie. It is one of the most mobile and varied professions in the game. It doesn't use immobile turrets.

IMO, the only reason you haven't tried the class is a prejudice coming from other games, that has never applied to GW2 Engie. Leave that behind and enjoy.

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In general I think the class has always felt extremely “clunky” for lack of a better word.

Kits and such aside some of the weapons just aren’t designed very well IMO. Rifle sends you flying all over the screen which isn’t optimal when red circles are all over the ground. Seems like I see more people running around just auto attacking than using the actual weapon skills.

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Honestly for me, hyped as I was, the class just feels... disjointed?

There's many elements which I feel would individually be enough for a classes' "thing", if fully developed. Instead a ton of half-developed ideas like kits to swap weapon skills, toolbelt skills as secondary effects for non-weapon skills, autonomous pets, throwing out potions as a way of supporting, laser weaponry... they're all thrown in there.

But nothing feels thoroughly designed. And the class just becomes annoying to play in the end :(

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Looking over the replies, I think for the most part it's because most people seem fixated on optimising damage and making the game as easy (and boring) as possible. Personally I enjoy engineers of all types/specs, because I don't measure fun by how fast I can melt mobs, but by how engaging I find the mechanics.

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Turrets were never a necessary part of the core Engineers identity. Turrets were never the 'Ranger's pet'. (Toolbelt.)

Turrets are a utility type, objectively no more the main reason to play Engineer than Spirit Weapons are the reason for playing guardian.

If any utility type were the reason one would play Engi, it'd be kits because Engi is balanced around taking 1 mandatory kit minimum.

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@Ardid.7203 said:

@Leodon.1564 said:From the beginning, Engineer has remained my least favorite class cause I just don't like immobile turrets. I've heard Holosmith plays differently so my interest in the class has been piqued.

You know almost no engie build uses turrets (except healing turret, which is insta-blasted anyway), right?Scrapper doesn't use turrets, Core doesn't use turrets, Holo doesnt use turrets... The few static discharge builds that use rifle turret don't actually use the turret itself, only the Toolbelt Skill. Basically the only engies that play with immobile turrets are the AFK farmers...

Well Engies from the start were touted as the class with turrets and that theme never really jived with me. Sure, you can play the class without turrets but turrets are a big part of what defines the class. If you're not interested in using turrets, what reason would a new player have in choosing an Engie over a different class?

Your argument is sort of like saying I can play a Ranger without using a pet. If I didn't want to use a pet, why would I choose a class that has a pet as part of its core identity?

I'm super sorry, Leodon, but you are extremely wrong. Turrets were only one possible reason (and a wrong one) to choose Engie. As new players most choose engie because the technological theme. Others simply tried many professions and stayed with the more frenzy one. Some of us simply love the flamethrower.

While I understand in most games turrets are an integral and distinctive part of an "engineer" class, that is not the case on GW2. Turrets has always been optional for the Engie, even in the brief times they have been truly useful. In GW2 the distinctive and "integral"(quotes because how clunky is the mechanic) skills are the Kits. Because Kits engie has no weapon swap, because kits the toolbelt exist. Because Kits the Engie is known as a "piano" class. You can play without kits, but is not easy.

You can completely forgot about turrets. You can play without them since day 1. Most builds don't use them. Most players consider them dead skills.Turrets are NOT part of Engie's core identity. So, if you don't like "immobile turrets", you SHOULD BY ALL MEANS play Engie. It is one of the most mobile and varied professions in the game. It doesn't use immobile turrets.

IMO, the only reason you haven't tried the class is a prejudice coming from other games, that has never applied to GW2 Engie. Leave that behind and enjoy.

How can I be wrong about my own opinion on whether I like a class or not?

What's the first thing that pops out to you? For me, it was turrets. Sure, you can include the other things like a rifle, grenade, mortar, etc being a part of the Engineer's toolkit but it makes no difference to me as none of these things appeal to me. This thread is about the reasons why people don't choose Engineers and there is no right or wrong to people's preferences.

I'm not saying Engie is a bad or good class; I have very little experience with it. I'm just pointing out the reason why I don't choose to play it which is mainly that I feel the theme is bland/generic/boring. The class looks like a footsoldier, rather than an interesting hero archetype.

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@Leodon.1564 said:Well Engies from the start were touted as the class with turrets and that theme never really jived with me. Sure, you can play the class without turrets but turrets are a big part of what defines the class. If you're not interested in using turrets, what reason would a new player have in choosing an Engie over a different class?Your argument is sort of like saying I can play a Ranger without using a pet. If I didn't want to use a pet, why would I choose a class that has a pet as part of its core identity?

@Leodon.1564 said:I'm not saying Engie is a bad or good class; I have very little experience with it. I'm just pointing out the reason why I don't choose to play it.

You've changed your tune, in first post you definitely mis-labeled the core/defining features of the spec, and definitely implied that if a new player didn't like turrets, Engi was not for them. Neither true.

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@Leodon.1564, you have the right to like or despise anything you want. I wasn't saying you were wrong on having an opinion.

@"Leodon.1564" said:From the beginning, Engineer has remained my least favorite class cause I just don't like immobile turrets .

I was only pointing your valid opinion is based on incorrect information.

If you were to say, for example, "I hate Engie because kits are too convoluted", I wouldn't have tried to clarify anything.

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@Ardid.7203 said:@Leodon.1564, you have the right to like or despise anything you want. I wasn't saying you were wrong on having an opinion.

@"Leodon.1564" said:From the beginning, Engineer has remained my least favorite class
cause I just don't like immobile turrets
.

I was only pointing your valid opinion is based on incorrect information.

If you were to say, for example, "I hate Engie because kits are too convoluted", I wouldn't have tried to clarify anything.

Fair enough but that doesn't really change that's how my mind works when I'm looking at the different classes and trying to decide on a class to play. I have a hard time trying to pin down what differentiates Engies from the other classes and the thing that comes up for me personally is turrets. I don't really see guns, mortars, flamethrowers, and all the other things that an Engie has as being particularly interesting and class defining.

Holosmith in comparison to the core Engie looks like a suped up techno-warrior wielding lightsabers, and has that "it" factor which I find missing in the base profession. (At least on the surface; it could suck game-play wise.) If we had Holosmith instead of Engineer from the beginning, I would have definitely considered it as one of the first classes to play.

I did level an Engie for a little bit as my 5th or 6th profession several years ago and didn't stick with it because I wasn't a fan of all the ground-clicking I was doing using grenades. Plus, I hate complex, arbitrary, and fixed rotations (this is the quintessential definition of "unfun" to me) which Engie seems to be the king of.

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"Class defining" is down to class primary mechanics which tend to be default keybinded to your F1-F5 or something involved in them.

The engineer's is toolbelt skills, not turrets. It is a defining feature because no other profession can slot a utility skill and get a 2nd skill in their F1-F5 corrresponding to that skill with a different effect.

Outside of mechanics, the Engineer is also defined by being the only profession that doesn't use any form of magic, and is highly distinctive in that manner. In fact, the lack of flashy overbearing skills in core, make it stand out in a crowd of bloated and oversaturated "look at me!" Classes.

Saying Engineer is defined by turrets is like saying, Ranger is defined by shouts, or Thief is defined by traps etc...

To define a profession by 4 of their utility skills which are optional to take, where no primary profession mechanic is (neither is the toolbelt), is misguided.

What is more accurate, is that your very valid dislike for engineer stems from your interest in the turret concept but your dislike in its implementation, and there is nothing else in the Engineer theme or skillset which interests you. Even if the turrets were to your liking, I would advise you reconsider playing a class you only like 4-5 utility skills of.

In addition I would disagree with the "fixed rotation" assessment. Engineer is actually one of the most reactionary and make your own combo professions out there, filling a Swiss army knife concept.

Ele is far more rotation centric, having a rhythmic pattern in how it ties together attunements, while engineer is about creating your own melody based on the situation out of disjointed tools. It is why it has some of the most finishers in the game, and can as many posters have said "feel unintuitive". It requires the user to fill in that intuition gap.

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@"PistolWhip.2697" said:"Class defining" is down to class primary mechanics which tend to be default keybinded to your F1-F5 or something involved in them.

The engineer's is toolbelt skills, not turrets. It is a defining feature because no other profession can slot a utility skill and get a 2nd skill in their F1-F5 corrresponding to that skill with a different effect.

Outside of mechanics, the Engineer is also defined by being the only profession that doesn't use any form of magic, and is highly distinctive in that manner. In fact, the lack of flashy overbearing skills in core, make it stand out in a crowd of bloated and oversaturated "look at me!" Classes.

Saying Engineer is defined by turrets is like saying, Ranger is defined by shouts, or Thief is defined by traps etc...

True but your viewpoint is coming from someone who has played an Engie and understands what toolbelt skills are and the benefits of being able to switch them out via utility skills. All this info is going to go over the head of a new player who is looking at the broad context of things when choosing a profession to play.

This thread is about why people don't play Engineer and I was giving my reasons as a person who doesn't play Engineer. Most of the people commenting are Engineers and you guys have a different perspective than me. I'm not saying my reasons are right or even makes sense; these are just my reasons.

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@"Chaith.8256" said:Turrets were never a necessary part of the core Engineers identity. Turrets were never the 'Ranger's pet'. (Toolbelt.)

Turrets are a utility type, objectively no more the main reason to play Engineer than Spirit Weapons are the reason for playing guardian.

If any utility type were the reason one would play Engi, it'd be kits because Engi is balanced around taking 1 mandatory kit minimum.

And then what? That statement valids for Engineer having less skilltypes than other profession? They are much more predictable than other profession? I mean gadget are good, but have you seen them use anything other than rocket boots? We don't have any signet to scale our stats, and we don't have any "invulnerabilty" that lets us attack at the mean time, but yeah sure give mirage, warrior or ranger to be invulnerable to certain damage types, while using an escape skill or bludgening us to death.

Are the turrets toolbelts is good enough, even if you are forcibly taking a reflect shield under inventions? There are just so many question I would want to ask the developers, why are they making engineer life harder to build and synergise. I didn't say the traits are underpowered, but they like to throw in garbage traits we had to get to use the important ones. Is it because they wanted to make the profession so "intellectual" to build it useful in any kind situations?

Again, engi as a whole, screams dumb ever since the turret nerf. The engi turret is, referenced by the devs themselves, to be close as possible to TF2 engi where you control a capture points and decap them. It has no mobility, it has no range to kite, it has no good melee (before holo). So turret IS, the main reason people play engi. It was meant to be turtling slow, no dash or gapcloser, just bunkering up an important chokepoint to spearhead defenses and static play.

Now even when the defensive play is gutted, is why people leave engi. The only good thing left in the core was condi cleanse from elixir gun and protections, and some CC options and dual blocks (which also means you are sacrificing offhand for hammer or the kitten shield). And I repeat my previous statement. People do not give a single kitten about condi cleanse or blocks, because nowadays everyone can do unblockable attacks, and resistance boon is easily obtainable. Its all bout the oneshots combo is the hot kitten kids like to smear themselves with.

Pick a oneshot build off internet, attempt the oneshot combo, then disengage to reload your cooldown if it fails, and jump back it again for another oneshot attempt. That's why you see deadeyes, daredevils, holo, one shot mirages clowns dancing on WvW and pretend to be some sort of combo god after pressing three button to down an enemy.

And holo isn't even a proper engi where it can't swap kits in holo mode. It's just a berserker in disguise. Engi is dead. Anet needs to reiterate whether bunker builds are viable to versus with high mobility.

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@stone cold.8609 said:I blame the hobo sack appearance that the kits had when the game first launched. Anyone else remember these? I know that they put me off engineer for a while!

Lol! I know, right? I felt the same way about having my pretty backpieces hidden by the hobosack. The funny thing is that now I use the hobosack skin as my backpieces on my engi. XD

I think it's a combination of things though, each which drives its own set of players away from playing engi:

Fashion Wars:

  1. The hobosack
  2. Leather armor/trench coats
  3. Lowest selection of weapon choices
  4. Kits being used more than the actual weapons and not being affected by equipping legendary weapons, making it almost pointless to go for legendaries
  5. The aesthetic of the class as a whole is much less glamorous than other professions

Gameplay:

  1. Meta builds requiring multiple kits and complicated combos to pull off what other professions do with much less effort
  2. In wvw there is very little use for engi outside of roaming, which could be done better by mesmers, warriors and thieves.
  3. In PvP they have a holomancer build that works, but isn't an essential part of any team. It's okay, but nothing special or worth going out of your way to play engi for.
  4. They have a reputation as being the Jack of all trades, master of none, and there is not much demand for them in any game mode.

Additional notes:

  1. Their trait lines have a history of being a mess with nothing matching up right and no theme for each line being present.
  2. They have historically had more bugs than other professions that went unfixed for way too long. First there was a 50 page thread about the hobosack, then the tool kit, rocket boots, function gyro, gadgets, healing turret, and everything else. Listing what has never been bugged for engi would take less time.
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@"Kako.1930" said:

  1. They have a reputation as being the Jack of all trades, master of none, and there is not much demand for them in any game mode.

This. I've yet to see engi being a "jack of all trades" in anything right now, or even historically.

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  • 1 year later...

As an Engi main (scrapper) with a boatload of hrs in the game I can tell you that the main issue, at least for me, is that an Engi has to work ten times as hard to do what most classes can do with little to no effort AND there are very few weapons to choose from. It's the difference between learning Chopin on the piano, because you want to hear it, as opposed to just pushing play on your iPod. That said, I just love class and its utility.

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