[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage

[Kaiser.9873]

@Redponey.8352 said:I'm not angry about necro and condition damage , but more on the fact that is no fun at all and it rely on 1 attribute instead of at least 2or 3. It's funny to see how a robutness vitality condi will destroy you so easily with random dodge and tanking your dps , because he has 30k hp and more than 3k armor which is more than my frontline gardian. Anet has always explain their change by the reason of «balancing» but do nothing about this ...

1 attribute is a fallacy, and I believe you are being disingenuous by saying that. A frontline guard with less than 3K armor is NOT a frontline guard, and you want to talk about a class facetanking damage? SB can facetank a single condi Scourge all day.

A condi build has to have toughness and vitality as well as condition damage to even hope to compete with a power build. Without toughness and vitality the condi build dies before they have half a chance to ramp their damage. Power builds do NOT NEED to ramp damage as they hit hard with every attack. Therefore a power build stacks power/crit/ferocity to do max damage.

Power build: Power/crit/ferocityCondi build: Condi/Tough/Vit

[Oozo.7856]

@Kaiser.9873 said:A condi build has to have toughness and vitality as well as condition damage to even hope to compete with a power build.

Nope. You ever heard of vipers or grieving armor?

IMO, someone running full tank condi (like dire) should have the same lethality as someone running PVT.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Kaiser.9873 said:A condi build has to have toughness and vitality as well as condition damage to even hope to compete with a power build.

Nope. You ever heard of vipers or grieving armor?

IMO, someone running full tank condi (like dire) should have the same lethality as someone running PVT.

Not really speaking of PvE, and yes I've woven some Viper's(weapons) into my WvW setup. Point is that to be effective in WvW you must survive long enough to ramp damage. You are not going to survive long enough in WvW setting in full viper's/grieving to ramp damage. A power build delivers a huge chunk nearly immediately. A condi build, not a hybrid build, but full condi takes significantly longer to reach maximum. Pure Viper's and/or Grieving on a 900 range Scourge is a suicide waiting to happen.

[Oozo.7856]

@Kaiser.9873 said:You are not going to survive long enough in WvW setting in full viper's/grieving to ramp damage.

Depends on the class, yes? That is a non issue for thief and mesmer and more of an issue for necromancer but that is because they lack defensives and mobility. How many berserker power necros do you see running around?

[Mokk.2397]

The problem is condition damage is based on vitality a toughness.Super tanky can deliver maximum damage with no mitigation .No sacrifice is made . Power builds have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to achieve maximum damage that is mitigated by armor .That,s messed up .Condition damage needs mitigation at the core level such as direct damage is mitigated by armor .Resistance needs to be removed from the boon line and made a core attribute to mitigate condition damage .I made a similar suggestion herehttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/505267/#Comment_505267

[jsp.6912]

the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the fuck is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the fuck they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

[Strider Pj.2193]

@jsp.6912 said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

[Aeolus.3615]

Maybe players that go for sturdiness need to get skills casting more delayed, or spam less stacks :P

Maybe a rework on stats need to be done.....

[Oozo.7856]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"jsp.6912" said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

Without really trying too hard (and never running anything like this):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJBLh4IZooWCyLwPHJAA-j1xCQBrY/BUqEsgq/AgTAQ90DcsHAQFV+FA4Aw93f/93fft/+7v/+7v/+7vvUATqTD-w

You'd have over 2K condition damage with full condi stacks, just short of 30K health and would be pushing 3.8K armor with minions and condtions applied to enemy. So, he's exaggerating but not by too much. Pretty easy to have over 3K armor, around 30K health and 2K condition damage though.

[Oozo.7856]

The big issue is that you can build that tanky and still do ridiculous damage due to condition stacks. If it was up to me (which it isn't), I'd make condition stacks have some serious diminishing returns in pvp and then add a stat or rework an existing stat (like precision) to relax the diminishing returns on condition stacks.

That way if someone wants to run heavy vitality and toughness with conditions they have the same basic lethality as someone running PVT. And, if someone wants to do 3K+ poison/torment stacks and 5K+ burning stacks they have to sacrifice either health or toughness or both.

The problem for anet is breaking things for PvE. They probably don't want to add another stat, but reworking precision could possibly work and makes some sense since a lot of condition builds rely on precision to start with.

The intent would be to lower condition damage overall and require a cost to boost it back up and force condition players to make the same kind of tough decisions that power players have to make when considering stat distribution.

[jsp.6912]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@jsp.6912 said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

I exaggerate with 30 health and 4k armor but the problem is u can be a fucking tank and have fucking high condi damage

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"jsp.6912" said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

Without really trying too hard (and never running anything like this):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJBLh4IZooWCyLwPHJAA-j1xCQBrY/BUqEsgq/AgTAQ90DcsHAQFV+FA4Aw93f/93fft/+7v/+7v/+7vvUATqTD-w

You'd have over 2K condition damage with full condi stacks, just short of 30K health and would be pushing 3.8K armor with minions and condtions applied to enemy. So, he's exaggerating but not by too much. Pretty easy to have over 3K armor, around 30K health and 2K condition damage though.

Cool. Thanks @Oozo.7856

Not sure I would run it, but looking at stats and how it impacts others is always helpful.

[Oozo.7856]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"jsp.6912" said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

Without really trying too hard (and never running anything like this):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJBLh4IZooWCyLwPHJAA-j1xCQBrY/BUqEsgq/AgTAQ90DcsHAQFV+FA4Aw93f/93fft/+7v/+7v/+7vvUATqTD-w

You'd have over 2K condition damage with full condi stacks, just short of 30K health and would be pushing 3.8K armor with minions and condtions applied to enemy. So, he's exaggerating but not by too much. Pretty easy to have over 3K armor, around 30K health and 2K condition damage though.

Cool. Thanks @Oozo.7856

Not sure I would run it, but looking at stats and how it impacts others is always helpful.

Yeah, no thought there as to viability whatsoever. Just crunching the stats. :)

[Strider Pj.2193]

@jsp.6912 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@jsp.6912 said:the only problem with condi in wvw is just the stuff how the kitten is possible to have 4k armor 3k health and 2k condi damage, seriosuly how the kitten they don't balance it like they did it in pvp.(same problem with gear full bunker heal)

Send me a copy of that build. I assume you meant 30k health,, but yeah, send me that link.

I exaggerate with 30 health and 4k armor but the problem is u can be a kitten tank and have kitten high condi damage

Fair enough! ( I never exaggerate :flushed: ).

But @Oozo.7856 gave a reasonable facsimile of what you noted.., so even if you were exaggerating, it can be done. Like I noted above, it kind of helps to see what people likely would need to sacrifice to pull it off.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

First: I Play both, condi builds and also power builds, roaming in WvW.

I got "scolded" yesterday again for using a condi roaming build in WvW and this from a holo which has one of the highest possible condi cleanses out of all classes.

I really can't understand why People have Problems with other ppl playing condi. Sure a condi build can add a looot of vita + toughness to it making it very tanky, however, the equivalent of vita/toughness on a condi build is simple condi cleanse to give you the same "tankyness" against condi classes.

IMO condition damage gives the whole battle System another Dimension, you have direct damage that can be reduced/negated by vita/toughness/protection/blocks etc. and you have condition damage that can be reduced/negated by condi cleanse and resistance. And ANY good roamer should simply have all of those aspects in his build. I have absolutely NO Problem fighting against condition classes simply because I always take a fair amount of condi cleanses with me. And those who say their class does not have enough clenase, there are sigil/rune/buffood Options that reduce the condi pressure a lot.

Of course you do then less damage, or have less toughness or less vita, but that is exactly what I love on this game, you always have a tradeoff when choosing your build properties and you can model it all you want.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

I don't have any problems with conditions ... Then again, I play antitoxin-scrapper...In our guild raids we very rarely have problems with conditions... then again, we have 2 scrappers and 2 tempests... (not per group)...All Necros that tried out condition based builds during our raids dealt a lot less damage than power scourges.Probably because enemies also had scrappers and tempests.

Still, this shows a general problem with conditions in my opinion.Why do guilds run so much condi cleanse when there isn't even a condi build in the current meta for zerg play?In my opinion, that's because power scourges and other classes spam cheap conditions with high frequencies.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:I don't have any problems with conditions ... Then again, I play antitoxin-scrapper...In our guild raids we very rarely have problems with conditions... then again, we have 2 scrappers and 2 tempests... (not per group)...All Necros that tried out condition based builds during our raids dealt a lot less damage than power scourges.Probably because enemies also had scrappers and tempests.

Still, this shows a general problem with conditions in my opinion.Why do guilds run so much condi cleanse when there isn't even a condi build in the current meta for zerg play?In my opinion, that's because power scourges and other classes spam cheap conditions with high frequencies.

But then we are now at the soft-CC part and not the damaging conditions anymore, some bleeding from a power scourge won't hurt you much, right?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Prinzsecond.4863" said:First: I Play both, condi builds and also power builds, roaming in WvW.

I got "scolded" yesterday again for using a condi roaming build in WvW and this from a holo which has one of the highest possible condi cleanses out of all classes.

I guess I would ask: ‘why care’?

They sent salt because they were not prepared enough to bring enough condi cleanse.

Send them a smilie face back and tell them to have a good day. Or ignore them.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:But then we are now at the soft-CC part and not the damaging conditions anymore, some bleeding from a power scourge won't hurt you much, right?

I dare say, a burn-guard will look pretty sad against such a setup. cover conditions don't work there.Most Soft-CC usually is not a problem thanks to the superspeed scrapper and tempests provide.Only dangerous one is immobile since you can't dodge, move, or overwrite it with superspeed or stability.If you are unlucky, you are 1s immobilized, which might bring you heavily out of position.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.

[Anput.4620]

If condition damage is supposed to ramp up over time then why is that time 1,5 seconds until you die for mesmers?

[bq pd.2148]

@Anput.4620 said:If condition damage is supposed to ramp up over time then why is that time 1,5 seconds until you die for mesmers?

because cleanses are working on damaging conditions so there needs to options to overcome these. => nerf cleanses.

[Anput.4620]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Anput.4620 said:If condition damage is supposed to ramp up over time then why is that time 1,5 seconds until you die for mesmers?

because cleanses are working on damaging conditions so there needs to options to overcome these. => nerf cleanses.

But we also have protection and flat reductions along with, you know, toughness?

[bq pd.2148]

@Anput.4620 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Anput.4620 said:If condition damage is supposed to ramp up over time then why is that time 1,5 seconds until you die for mesmers?

because cleanses are working on damaging conditions so there needs to options to overcome these. => nerf cleanses.

But we also have protection and flat reductions along with, you know, toughness?

i see you dont understand the difference.power damage is reliable as your target will simply lose the HP once the attack connects, it doesnt matter if the have protection or thoughness you still do damage.condition damage is unreliable as the target can potentially remove every damage condition in no time, even high stacks with a single cleanse + lets not forget about resistance.this results in the same condi build not being able to deal damage to target A who has brought a lot of condi cleanse while it completly obliberates target B with the sheer amount of condis.now imagine condi cleanses and resistance only working against soft CC, not against damage conditions but in return severly lower condi ticks/applied stacks and increase durations. this would make them ramp up even against players. but as long as we got these options to deal with condis, condis will be unviable or they will burst.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Anput.4620 said:If condition damage is supposed to ramp up over time then why is that time 1,5 seconds until you die for mesmers?

Because you like to spam skills with 20 stacks of confusion and refuse to bring proper condicleanses. Thats why.