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How would you redesign the elementalist?


Lonami.2987

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More fields types (at least an earth field maybe more such as alternative version of fields such as water and ice but with other types so an air field a lava field a if they add in earth a sand field etc..)More finishers (blast is nice but that the main thing ele has i want to see a good leap projectile and whereirl and even more)More finishers added effects (just giving fury from blasting fire is nice but it feels waited when ele has more then fire fields to play with and one hopes more finsher type effects with leap projectile and wheiril).

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  • 2 months later...

New idea, sounds crazy, but stick with me:

Remove Earth and Air attunements, merging them into Fire and Water.

Yeah, you read that right. This would leave the elementalist with only two attunements, Heat (Fire+Earth) and Cold (Water+Air). Thematically, there are no problems there, fire comes from the earth anyway (lava), and water combines well with air (storms). Consequences of this:

  • Two attunements allow the design to focus on a dual role (attack/defense), unfeasible with four attunements. Easier to balance and create cool combos.
  • We can move away from a single weapon set with 20 skills, and enable weapon swap for two weapon sets with 10 skills each. Solves the melee/ranged role problems.
  • Two attunements don't have the workload of four, and thus, we can keep the unique skills in each mode. No normalization is needed, like in my previous ideas.
  • Like in previous ideas, conjures can be removed, and turned into new weapons. I would enable shortbow and greatsword usage, with similar roles as their conjure originals. The conjure slot skill family would then be replaced by minions, which would become independent from glyphs and current attunement. The skill summoning a fire elemental would summon a fire elemental no matter your current attunement.
  • Original attunement distinction for slot skills would remain intact, since they aren't affected by the current attunement anyway. Skills like Signet of Fire and Signet of Earth keep their original names.
  • We can focus on burning and chilling conditions much more.

How would this redesign affect the elite specializations?

  • Tempest gets burst skills instead of overloads. These burst skills change depending on the current weapon and the current attunement. Burst skills are now "bigger and better", almost like an ultimate, but take longer to use.
  • Weaver loses the Dual Attack mechanic. Instead, we get a temporary attunement fusion, like the warrior's berserker mode, with a stat boost and five new weapon skills. Off-hand sword is enabled. Stances are moved to the core profession, swapping them with glyphs, which fit weaver better now. Glyphs have a different effect depending on the two attunements and the fusion.

I love my four attunements, but I think this could be a pretty good solution, and solve most of the problems, if not all of them. What we have now is kinda pointless most of the time. Great for aesthetics, but a burden for gameplay.

So, opinions? I know it's pretty drastic, but I'm surprised it works so well.

@Blue.1207 said:Remove conjures from Ele and you have a good class with a fun rotation.

I wish conjures were actual weapons, and we had weapon swap. So tired of not being able to switch between ranged and melee without needing to exit combat.

@MyPuppy.8970 said:I would make them the masters of the elements.

Everybody and their mothers can burn or chill more potently than eles these days.

Jack of all trades, master of none. That's the problem. This is the post that inspired me to write the above idea with only two attunements.

Sometimes, more is less, and less is more.

@"Swagg.9236" said:Without going into any detail, the best thing I could imagine would be re-balancing everything around Elementalists only having access to two elements at a time. Weaver is still one of the dumbest, bloat-inducing designs that I have ever seen in video games (just slaps on more buttons and shuffles the same, 5-year-old weapon skills around the bar like they're supposed to suddenly be fresh and new). I'd probably tear the blasted thing apart and make it use a not terrible version of conjured weapons. Tempest is mostly in the same ballpark as Weaver (extra buttons slapped on top of old ones; the rawest form of braindead powercreep much like every other elite spec).

Point being, give Elementalists only an F1 and an F2. Within those slots, they can take up to two respective elements. Elementalists suddenly can get skill rosters that aren't meant to be all blown easy-going in a line. They can have real, concrete playstyle options instead of playing patty-cake with the idea of having any fixed party role.

I hadn't seen this one before writing the above, but yeah, I now agree wholeheartedly. However, I would make those attunements a fixed thing, not "choose 2 out of 4". You get two, and those are the two you stick with.

It's the only way we can get some real balance and useful skills once and for all.

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@"Lonami.2987" said:

Something that weaver really needs though, is a new mechanic skill, F5, letting you turn weaving on and off whenever you want for as long as you want, pretty much like Unravel, which would be removed.

This is what I really want. I love my ele and I find the sword skills fun. I have been trying to make unravel work in PVP and just can't get it to click. It's not enough. The ability to turn the weave OFF is what I need even if that means losing the dual skills as the cost.

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Make atuments a bit more vary in there attks types so for each wepon set aside a ranged atument and a melee atument at least one of each. Letting you have real ranged attks on dagger and sword but also letting you have melee or near melee attks on staff scpter.

As for weaver i would like to see the duel skill not inate you still have your normal 3ed skills for your main atument but by hitting an f5 you flip the 3ed skill into that duel skill. This will lets you have more control over all to what skill you want to use and keep duel skill usable moment to moment. Put the F5 on a 5 sec cd or less making it not a slow down but simply a fix for weaver to not be pushhished for having a duel skill effect as a class tool.

For tempest i would like to see stronger aura not more boons on auras as well as something more with shouts then just might and weakness. The GM need major reworks as well.

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@"Lonami.2987" said:I love my four attunements, but I think this could be a pretty good solution, and solve most of the problems, if not all of them. What we have now is kinda pointless most of the time. Great for aesthetics, but a burden for gameplay.

There are no problems with the class mechanic, it works like a charm, it's great thematically (which your "solution" isn't) and I strongly disagree with your assessment of it. I fail to see how it is a "burden". It's versatility. You don't use it all the time - duh! - you use it when the situation is right and you need it. This is a big part of what makes ele feel so great. You're "solving" non-issues, introducing real ones. Like, weapon swap, really? You realize most weapons will have to be gutted for that to happen, don't you?

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I wouldn't redesign the whole class, but there are bits and pieces that could do with looking at.

Weapon skills could do with being a bit more versatile OR conjures more usable in general so that eles aren't constantly range-locked. Some utility skill types and their associated traits are a bit half-hearted (conjures again, signets, most glyphs) and the elite specs are really badly done. Tempest is a whole elite spec based on not changing attunements, which is just absolutely wrong at a conceptual level. That whole spec should basically be thrown out and built again from scratch, but of course that'll never happen. Weaver isn't quite as bad since it actually respects that elementalist is about juggling attunements but all its mechanics are strict downgrades from core and the only reasons to ever use it are for its dps boosts in pve or riptide heal burst in pvp. Very boring and weak execution.

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I would begin by changing the skills of the dagger of water and air: instead of a Lightning Whip we would have a Water Whip (as well as water dominators in Avatar [Katara]) and instead of a Vapor Blade we would have an Air Blade. Sorry for that but I can't deal with that and neither with the air specialization use lightning that actually comes from the fire. :lol: :innocent:

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I'd completely redisign Sword. I think when most players wanted Elementalist sword, they wanted a high damage weapon that captures that spellsword feel, like playing Elderscrolls and using a sword in one hand an a spell in the other. In my mind, I wanted something similar to scepter but with a much potent, meaty melee autoattack. Right now it's just extremely bland.

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I liked the djinn idea someone mentioned and I like the concept of Weave Self, so I would do some sort of attunement count, once you reach x attunement changes, you gain access to f5, f5 transforms you in a djinn based on the attunement you were in (massive damage, support, heal).

Change either the conjures or signet into wards (unstrippable effects)Examples (temporary names):Ward of Taimi - while in this ward foes move 33% slower.Ward of broken dodge key - while in this ward foes are exhausted and endurance gain skills don't workWard of slow - while in this ward foes attack and cast 50% slower.Ward of no F skills - while in this ward foes can't activate F skills.

Edit: For reference: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ward_spell

Something like that I guess.

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I don't believe that the class needs a complete redesign. But the biggest flaw with balancing elementalist at the moment is the huge amount of damage modifier traits that it possesses. No other class has so many damage modifiers and for good reason. Elementalist can be the best DPS under optimal conditions, but the DPS becomes complete garbage as soon as you have to trait defensively, which is why elementalist struggles to kill enemies with most builds that are used in competetive environments. Half of the damage modifiers should be removed and the base damage of elementalist should be increased. That way the class will no longer be much more trait dependant than other classes. This will also result in greater versatility in builds. You know versatility, something that elementalist is supposed to represent.

While we are at it, it would also be nice if certain weapon skills were easier to land. Every weapon has skills that are too slow for their impact, but sword and warhorn are by far the biggest offenders here.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:I don't believe that the class needs a complete redesign. But the biggest flaw with balancing elementalist at the moment is the huge amount of damage modifier traits that it possesses. No other class has so many damage modifiers and for good reason. Elementalist can be the best DPS under optimal conditions, but the DPS becomes complete garbage as soon as you have to trait defensively, which is why elementalist struggles to kill enemies with most builds that are used in competetive environments. Half of the damage modifiers should be removed and the base damage of elementalist should be increased. That way the class will no longer be much more trait dependant than other classes. This will also result in greater versatility in builds.

It actually wouldn't. It will only make ele feel more like the other classes. If I wanted something that felt like the other classes, I would play, you know, another class. The charm of ele is precisely it's high damage potential and the intricate playstyle it takes to make it happen.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:I don't believe that the class needs a complete redesign. But the biggest flaw with balancing elementalist at the moment is the huge amount of damage modifier traits that it possesses. No other class has so many damage modifiers and for good reason. Elementalist can be the best DPS under optimal conditions, but the DPS becomes complete garbage as soon as you have to trait defensively, which is why elementalist struggles to kill enemies with most builds that are used in competetive environments. Half of the damage modifiers should be removed and the base damage of elementalist should be increased. That way the class will no longer be much more trait dependant than other classes. This will also result in greater versatility in builds.

It actually wouldn't. It will only make ele feel more like the other classes. If I wanted something that felt like the other classes, I would play, you know, another class. The charm of ele is precisely it's high damage potential and the intricate playstyle it takes to make it happen.

I'm not advocating to change the playstyle or reduce the damage potential. Just to make a bit more of that damage baseline.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:I don't believe that the class needs a complete redesign. But the biggest flaw with balancing elementalist at the moment is the huge amount of damage modifier traits that it possesses. No other class has so many damage modifiers and for good reason. Elementalist can be the best DPS under optimal conditions, but the DPS becomes complete garbage as soon as you have to trait defensively, which is why elementalist struggles to kill enemies with most builds that are used in competetive environments. Half of the damage modifiers should be removed and the base damage of elementalist should be increased. That way the class will no longer be much more trait dependant than other classes. This will also result in greater versatility in builds.

It actually wouldn't. It will only make ele feel more like the other classes. If I wanted something that felt like the other classes, I would play, you know, another class. The charm of ele is precisely it's high damage potential and the intricate playstyle it takes to make it happen.

I'm not advocating to change the playstyle or reduce the damage potential. Just to make a bit more of that damage baseline.

But that will change the playstyle. It's about aligning all the modifiers. If you remove them and roll the damage into the baseline, what will you be aligning?

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:I don't believe that the class needs a complete redesign. But the biggest flaw with balancing elementalist at the moment is the huge amount of damage modifier traits that it possesses. No other class has so many damage modifiers and for good reason. Elementalist can be the best DPS under optimal conditions, but the DPS becomes complete garbage as soon as you have to trait defensively, which is why elementalist struggles to kill enemies with most builds that are used in competetive environments. Half of the damage modifiers should be removed and the base damage of elementalist should be increased. That way the class will no longer be much more trait dependant than other classes. This will also result in greater versatility in builds.

It actually wouldn't. It will only make ele feel more like the other classes. If I wanted something that felt like the other classes, I would play, you know, another class. The charm of ele is precisely it's high damage potential and the intricate playstyle it takes to make it happen.

I'm not advocating to change the playstyle or reduce the damage potential. Just to make a bit more of that damage baseline.

But that
will
change the playstyle. It's about aligning all the modifiers. If you remove them and roll the damage into the baseline, what will you be aligning?

If you are worried about the playstyle of the group PvE builds changing you should take a look at all the relevant damage modifier traits. Yes, some of them need to be aligned and that dictates playstyle. However, there are also many of them that are essentially passive when in a group. Burning rage, bolt to the heart, swift revenge and bountiful power require no effort on your part to maintain during your raid rotations. Your supports do all the work there for you.

You can just remove the most passive ones and keep the ones that you actually have to align, it's enough. There need to be damage modifiers, just not the overwhelming amount we have now. I never said to remove all of them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would make the Tempest overcharging effects much more powerful, and redesign them.

I would make Fire Overcharge cause a very big meteor to land that knocks enemies down in the area and does heavy damage.

I would make Water Overcharge cause a cool tidal wave effect to wash across the screen and heal friendly/damage enemies.

I would make Air Overcharge cause a Tornado to appear and do heavy damage and stun enemies, pulling them towards the center

I would make Earth Overcharge cause a huge earthquake that does heavy DoT during its effects and causes bleeding to enemies in the area.

I would make Staff ground spells be instant cast, reduce the cast time of meteor shower, increase water damage and healing, and totally redo the Air attunement staff skills. They are terrible. 1 is decent but needs better damage. 2 is just awful. I would change it to a big blast of ball lightning that moves slowly and continually strikes enemies as it passes by for moderate damage. I would remove 5 altogether and change it to a big lightning strike on a rather long cast time that stuns and does heavy damage at completion. I would make 4 last a bit longer than it does.

Weaver is fine.

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I would keep it the way it is now. The elementalist has its own unique flavor of gameplay, with its perks and challenges. Maximizing your strengths while compensating for your weaknesses is the whole idea behind the concept of having different professions. On elementalist, the distinct flavor is having both more and less options within the same weaponset, which really opens up a different style of gameplay.

Most of the suggestions I see here are 'turn the ele into another profession, because I like that one better'. My solution would be to suggest to those people to play that other profession instead of changing the ele. The variety is what makes the game fun for everyone and changing a profession, that clearly works well for a large number of players. At such, changing it isn't something that should be done on a whim, because you'd end up disappointing a large number of players that really enjoy the way things are now. But I guess that goes for any profession.

TL;DRKeep what makes the ele unique and only make alterations that allows for its playstyle to remain the way it is.

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@ThiBash.5634 said:I would keep it the way it is now. The elementalist has its own unique flavor of gameplay, with its perks and challenges. Maximizing your strengths while compensating for your weaknesses is the whole idea behind the concept of having different professions. On elementalist, the distinct flavor is having both more and less options within the same weaponset, which really opens up a different style of gameplay.

Most of the suggestions I see here are 'turn the ele into another profession, because I like that one better'. My solution would be to suggest to those people to play that other profession instead of changing the ele. The variety is what makes the game fun for everyone and changing a profession, that clearly works well for a large number of players. At such, changing it isn't something that should be done on a whim, because you'd end up disappointing a large number of players that really enjoy the way things are now. But I guess that goes for any profession.

TL;DRKeep what makes the ele unique and only make alterations that allows for its playstyle to remain the way it is.

The class has been changed dramatically since launch , it has gone through a tough cycle of nerfs and subpar buffs that did nothing to fix the fundamental issues of the class : heal gear or die instantly - heal burst or die. The playstyle is the same since launch : water/arcana or die....but at the same time other professions have evolved , their traitlines overhauled and weak weapon skills buffed....people only want to see a fair treatment for this class

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Arheundel.6451 said:people only want to see a fair treatment for this class

That can be done while keeping the ele's unique playstyle though. I'd rather not they scrapped all of the potential ele has to offer, simply because certain meta builds are very popular. There's so much things an ele can do that are, at the moment, simply underpowered. If tuned correctly, they could open up a ton of fun gameplay.

For example, I know people hardly use it, but there's a fun little combo in staff where blasting Frozen Ground with Ice Spike and/or Eruption casts an AoE Frost Aura. Instead of removing Frozen Ground in favor of some random dps or healing skill, I'd rather see that combo become a viable option during regular gameplay (getting auras to stack in duration would and/or mimic ranger spirit buffs would be one way to achieve said goal).

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  • 1 month later...

Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus some new elite specialization ideas to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

  • Elementalist: We're now down to 2 attunements instead of 4. These new attunements are Flame (Fire + Earth) and Frost (Water + Air), located in mechanic slots F1 and F2 respectively. Flame focuses on condition damage and toughness, and frost focuses on direct damage and healing. All weapon skills are redesigned recycling the originals, and made more powerful than what they are now. Weapon swap is enabled, and the following weapons are unlocked for the core profession: axes, shield, greatsword, hammer, and shortbow. Conjure slot skills are removed, replaced by minions. Glyphs including minions are modified to have different effects. Elementalists gain a new mechanic, elemental combos, allowing them to combine skills with unique properties to perform stronger attacks. For example, performing a fire field over an ice field counts as an elemental combo, destroying both fields to create an explosion of steam that burns enemies and heals allies.

  • Tempest: New mechanic skill F3 contains a burst skill, dependent on the current main-hand weapon and the current attunement. A new resource accumulates automatically the longer you don't swap neither weapons nor attunements. This resource increases the effectiveness of the burst skill when used, turning them into a very powerful attack at maximum energy.

  • Weaver: Dual Attacks are gone. You can now temporarily fuse both attunements into one, using mechanic skill F3. During this fusion, every time you use a weapon skill, it changes to the other attunement for the next time, letting you combine multiple weapon skills from each attunement without needing to swap the whole set every time. This phase is temporary, but its duration can be extended by performing elemental combos, which is far easier than normal thanks to the fusion process. Weapon swap remains available during the attunement fusion, but swaps attunements for each skill slot.

  • Dervish: New mechanic skill F3 allows the elementalist to transform into a djinn spirit, replacing your weapon skills with new djinn abilities, while also giving you a health and attribute boost. You choose one out of three djinn forms, each wielding a different djinn weapon for different transformed skills, these being Scythe, Staff, and Trident. Attunement swap is still available while transformed, and turns you into the other attunement's djinn form when used. The new weapon is the scythe, and the new slot skills are wells.

  • Shaman: The new mechanic is an effigy pet, with controls located at mechanic slots F3, F4 and F5. There's three to choose from: Arcane (asura golem, like Zojja's, direct damage), Forged (Flame Legion construct, condition damage), and Sand (Olmakhan elemental, support). The effigies are affected by attunement swaps, healing and gaining alternate abilities. Constant swapping makes the effigy stronger. The new weapon is the longbow, and the new slot skills are totems, working much like engineer turrets.

  • Chaplain: The new mechanic is a relic, much like Ventari's Tablet, controlled through mechanic slots F3, F4, and F5. The active relic is tied to the current attunement, Flame spawning an Anvil and Frost a Cauldron. The relics empower the support abilities of the chaplain, and can be turned into enemy objects for the chaplain to attack, gaining more bonuses the more damage he does to it. The new weapons are maces, specially designed for smiting the relics, and the new slot skills are mantras.

@"TheQuickFox.3826" said:I would increase the Elementalist's base health from 1,645 to 5,922 to be on par with the mesmer. (Caster profession, cloth armor)

Yeah, that's an important one. Elementalist should be in the mid health tier, swapping places with mesmer, who fits the glass cannon role much better.

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I am probably one of the the few who enjoys the solo aspect of ele in camping a single element.

If such a thing were viable for play - not just the back line wvw fire camper; but rather the chosen element being brought into a new light.

A potential of this being base stat buffs (hp) for being in the chosen element along with a small buff to CD's.

Keys 1 and 5 would be changed to something a bit more powerful/fitting as current auto's are lacking.

The other thing I would like to change would be how conjures work.Have them as non shareable wearable 'mantles' as Kael'thas of Warcraft and his floating orbs.

You can choose a particular element in whatever element you are in - abilities now look more like some of the greater elementals we fight (the earth golem at the start of the human tutorial).This gives a real master of the elements view.

The elite on the other hand is set to your chosen element and cannot be mixed and matched - due to this; it is similar to its base counterpart but with damage/multipliers increased and a change to an ability or two

Giving the impression of a savant ,master and legend in the chosen element

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'd make it horribly OP and break the game because I don't really know anything about game design. Numbers don't lie though and player experience should count for something. It should be fun, feel good, work thematically with your class.

There's something off if another class can do a two button rotation and achieve near what your class can do only under a very strict rotation and only under the most ideal of circumstances.

Elementalist is the glass canon mage of the classes and it doesn't feel like the canon part of the equation pays out for the drawbacks of the glass bit in high end content. It'll "work". Elementalist is and will be the "top DPS"... by like 2-5k damage.

But given what the elementalist has to do and what has to be built around the ele to achieve these numbers that other classes can approach with a much shorter skill ceiling?

Dedicated speed clear guilds may have a place for an ele. But the average player meta will probably push them out in favor of classes that can achieve near the same damage more consistently with less risk.

I don't want that to happen. So uhh... whatever makes that not happen. Without screwing up or scrapping what we already have established.

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