Please do something about permanent stealth - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please do something about permanent stealth

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  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Reroll a warrior, double endure pain, on my mark has reveal, greatsword 5 to run away.

    Because stealth is broken in this game, it will forever be broken in this game, I'm sure there's an anet dev laughing with glee playing their deadeye ghost sniper recon wars 2.

    You know. This 'theme' was the major argument aginst rifle thieves before the sneak peek of the HoT elite specs, it was a heated debate too. I do not know if there's a dev out there laughing with glee about that because it took quite a while for that spec to appear the way it is. On my point of view it feels like they're giving that theme a shot, even if it's quite absurd.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

    you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

    Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

  • googel.3278googel.3278 Member ✭✭✭

    nah permanent stealth works wonders, the only thing that needs nerf is scourge. we need more broken mechanics and no hate on teefies!

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

    You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your rude "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

    you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

    Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

    I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

    Not even close since nothing you stated has any bearing or context to anything you quote me saying, .#context, .#rc. maybe if what you stated was at all relevant to anything of what I said but even then.. Yeah nope still wouldn’t be relevant.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    "You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic."

    I'm taking the time to generate a healthier discussion about this topic.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

    you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

    Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

    I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

    Not even close since nothing you stated has any bearing or context to anything you quote me saying, .#context, .#rc. maybe if what you stated was at all relevant to anything of what I said but even then.. Yeah nope still wouldn’t be relevant.

    "You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your rude "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic."

    Edit- And instead of just reporting you to the mods...

    You- "But again those pesky facts."

    Other poster- "Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question."

    I'm taking the time to generate a healthier discussion about this topic.

    Still no bearing on what I stated, those pesky facts again on what I stated, .#context, .#rc.

    Reporting me to mods? I haven’t insulted or targeted anyone for ridicule, or been rude etc. so yeah fun facts.

    Unlike some people in this thread

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    Of course it does, but you’re having a hard time processing it.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

    you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

    Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

    I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

    Not even close since nothing you stated has any bearing or context to anything you quote me saying, .#context, .#rc. maybe if what you stated was at all relevant to anything of what I said but even then.. Yeah nope still wouldn’t be relevant.

    "You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your rude "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic."

    Edit- And instead of just reporting you to the mods...

    You- "But again those pesky facts."

    Other poster- "Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question."

    I'm taking the time to generate a healthier discussion about this topic.

    Still no bearing on what I stated, those pesky facts again on what I stated, .#context, .#rc.

    Of course it does, but you’re having a hard time processing it.

    Pretty sure it doesn’t since you have disproven anything I stated, or even replied to my comments with any form of context of the discussion with those other two players. .#context, .#rc

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    I don’t need to disprove anything, I’m adding to the facts.

    This discussion is about issues with the unhealthy nature of “permastealth”, so we need to present all the facts related to stealth.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld
    "Remove revealed and stealth yourself.
    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s"

    You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    City of Heroes...

    A fully developed stealth system…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception

    Your stealthy “thief” class design…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker

    Had a special stealth skill for every build…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide

    And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?
    You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment

    So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?
    -Attacking made you lose stealth.
    -Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.
    -See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

    Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

    You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?

    I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....

    -Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.

    -Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    -RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths

    -30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.

    -Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth

    “The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

    • Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
    • Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
    • Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
    • Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
    • Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
    • Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
    • Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”

    -Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat

    “Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”

    https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker

    “Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”

    -Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...

    “Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”

    ...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.

    I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.

    I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

    Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

    Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

    And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

    Those pesky facts.

    And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

    Here is another in-context fact...

    Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

    If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

    Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

    And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

    I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

    Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

    you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

    Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

    I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

    Not even close since nothing you stated has any bearing or context to anything you quote me saying, .#context, .#rc. maybe if what you stated was at all relevant to anything of what I said but even then.. Yeah nope still wouldn’t be relevant.

    "You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your rude "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic."

    Edit- And instead of just reporting you to the mods...

    You- "But again those pesky facts."

    Other poster- "Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question."

    I'm taking the time to generate a healthier discussion about this topic.

    Still no bearing on what I stated, those pesky facts again on what I stated, .#context, .#rc.

    Of course it does, but you’re having a hard time processing it.

    Pretty sure it doesn’t since you have disproven anything I stated, or even replied to my comments with any form of context of the discussion with those other two players. .#context, .#rc

    I don’t need to disprove anything, I’m adding to the facts.

    This discussion is about issues with the unhealthy nature of “permastealth”, so we need to present all the facts related to stealth.

    But it doesn’t in context to who I was replying to and the discussion in regards to that, you add nothing to that conversation not in the slightest.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    stealth stacking should still be allowed if someone else triggers a blast finisher. nerfing combo fields and team play even further would be bad for the game.

    you could also have revealed trigger even if the player doesnt attack from stealth.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again. But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again.

    the same time is granted to the attacked person, if you can reliably defeat the stealther so well he can try and fail again -what of it?

    But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    the only time i need longer stealth is against a group of opponents while i am solo, being partially visible would kill me there as stealth != invuln.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

    condition are mostly applied by a hit, avoiding this hit will avoid the condition. therefore conditions are allways weaker then power damage as conditions can be avoided on application and removed before their damage is done. if the thief remained visible , how would you get rid of the conditions?

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

    yes i know wich ones are typically used. none of these are used specifically to apply reveal tho but because of secondary effects/skills that come with it. also the strongst one you forgot but it is a trait not a skill : lock on. it only goes on cd when actually revealing and has 2 seperate cooldowns of 20s each.
    again my point stays if you do not put in a reveal skill spcially to counter stealth , then stealth is not such a threat , not so common or both.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The stealth effect should just max out at 5s to prevent stacking.

    Then rework SA to give benefits for entering and leaving stealth rather than camping it, and rework SR or reduce its cooldown.

    Why I've had to echo this since 2012 is beyond me.

    Then just nerf stealth uptime on scrapper and mesmer and we're all set.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again.

    the same time is granted to the attacked person, if you can reliably defeat the stealther so well he can try and fail again -what of it?

    But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    the only time i need longer stealth is against a group of opponents while i am solo, being partially visible would kill me there as stealth != invuln.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

    condition are mostly applied by a hit, avoiding this hit will avoid the condition. therefore conditions are allways weaker then power damage as conditions can be avoided on application and removed before their damage is done. if the thief remained visible , how would you get rid of the conditions?

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

    yes i know wich ones are typically used. none of these are used specifically to apply reveal tho but because of secondary effects/skills that come with it. also the strongst one you forgot but it is a trait not a skill : lock on. it only goes on cd when actually revealing and has 2 seperate cooldowns of 20s each.
    again my point stays if you do not put in a reveal skill spcially to counter stealth , then stealth is not such a threat , not so common or both.

    Lock On is fantastic for holosmith. I just wish Anet had left the engi traitlines of Alchemy and Inventions alone as their attempt to strengthen Inventions and weaken Alchemy left the traitlines seeming to be companions to each other, leaving other traitlines like Tools out in the cold when it comes to trait synergy.

    My experience in WvW is that perma stealth thieves can definitely be a threat but they're less common than condi builds of various flavors or builds running a lot of cc. Stun breaks and condi clear take priority (for me) over reveal skills when those skills do neither.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again.

    the same time is granted to the attacked person, if you can reliably defeat the stealther so well he can try and fail again -what of it?

    But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    the only time i need longer stealth is against a group of opponents while i am solo, being partially visible would kill me there as stealth != invuln.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

    condition are mostly applied by a hit, avoiding this hit will avoid the condition. therefore conditions are allways weaker then power damage as conditions can be avoided on application and removed before their damage is done. if the thief remained visible , how would you get rid of the conditions?

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

    yes i know wich ones are typically used. none of these are used specifically to apply reveal tho but because of secondary effects/skills that come with it. also the strongst one you forgot but it is a trait not a skill : lock on. it only goes on cd when actually revealing and has 2 seperate cooldowns of 20s each.
    again my point stays if you do not put in a reveal skill spcially to counter stealth , then stealth is not such a threat , not so common or both.

    Lock On is fantastic for holosmith. I just wish Anet had left the engi traitlines of Alchemy and Inventions alone as their attempt to strengthen Inventions and weaken Alchemy left the traitlines seeming to be companions to each other, leaving other traitlines like Tools out in the cold when it comes to trait synergy.

    My experience in WvW is that perma stealth thieves can definitely be a threat but they're less common than condi builds of various flavors or builds running a lot of cc. Stun breaks and condi clear take priority (for me) over reveal skills when those skills do neither.

    see they are not common enough or not powerful enough for you to take those skills. again if stealth was strong , people would run revealing skills mainly for the reveal and everything else on it as bonus and not ask for skills they like to get reveal as a bonus.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again.

    the same time is granted to the attacked person, if you can reliably defeat the stealther so well he can try and fail again -what of it?

    But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    the only time i need longer stealth is against a group of opponents while i am solo, being partially visible would kill me there as stealth != invuln.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

    condition are mostly applied by a hit, avoiding this hit will avoid the condition. therefore conditions are allways weaker then power damage as conditions can be avoided on application and removed before their damage is done. if the thief remained visible , how would you get rid of the conditions?

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

    yes i know wich ones are typically used. none of these are used specifically to apply reveal tho but because of secondary effects/skills that come with it. also the strongst one you forgot but it is a trait not a skill : lock on. it only goes on cd when actually revealing and has 2 seperate cooldowns of 20s each.
    again my point stays if you do not put in a reveal skill spcially to counter stealth , then stealth is not such a threat , not so common or both.

    Lock On is fantastic for holosmith. I just wish Anet had left the engi traitlines of Alchemy and Inventions alone as their attempt to strengthen Inventions and weaken Alchemy left the traitlines seeming to be companions to each other, leaving other traitlines like Tools out in the cold when it comes to trait synergy.

    My experience in WvW is that perma stealth thieves can definitely be a threat but they're less common than condi builds of various flavors or builds running a lot of cc. Stun breaks and condi clear take priority (for me) over reveal skills when those skills do neither.

    see they are not common enough or not powerful enough for you to take those skills. again if stealth was strong , people would run revealing skills mainly for the reveal and everything else on it as bonus and not ask for skills they like to get reveal as a bonus.

    I wouldn't mind seeing more reveal skills in the game spread out over more professions. Deadeye could've even gotten one in their rework (it would've made sense thematically; the deadeye has you in his sights).

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

    your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.
    what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.
    if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

    avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

    you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

    Time. Skills have recharges and resource costs like initiative. If your assault fails and you can simply go into stealth to move away within a large area, then you can easily return with all skills fresh and try again.

    the same time is granted to the attacked person, if you can reliably defeat the stealther so well he can try and fail again -what of it?

    But if you have a limited time for 'invisible' stealth and past that time moving under stealth is partially visible, after you move away they will see you coming when you come back, and get ready for that. Stealth would still work for tactics, not letting the enemy know whether you are moving behind them or away, but only for a few seconds. Use it or lose, so to speak.

    the only time i need longer stealth is against a group of opponents while i am solo, being partially visible would kill me there as stealth != invuln.

    Stealth that can stack and be maintained for too long also allows stacking lots of conditions on someone and wait them out. If that someone removes the conditions, stealth allows them to wait while hiding until the condition skills are ready again, and try again while the enemy has several of their
    condition removal recharging.

    condition are mostly applied by a hit, avoiding this hit will avoid the condition. therefore conditions are allways weaker then power damage as conditions can be avoided on application and removed before their damage is done. if the thief remained visible , how would you get rid of the conditions?

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

    so either stealth heavy play is so weak noone uses it or its so weak you mostly can deal without using a reveal.
    just like you could run the first years in roaming without condi cleanse altho there always was the option to play condi, it was just deemed 'cheesy', because people didnt want to consider fighting conditions in their build as that would mean they have to give up stuff they need to fight other power builds. not every trait and skill is usefull against every opponent, but if you option not to use a reveal skill or trait, while you got one and then complain about not having enough reveal - thats on you.
    one thing also to be considered , this game is balanced around group play, therefore you are not supposed to solo deny any access to stealth especially if a build can as you say rely on stealth.

    There are only 4 reveal skills that typically see use (Sic 'Em, Detection Pulse, Gaze of Darkness, and Spear of Justice). The last three are tied to HoT professions that struggle to stay viable after the release of PoF and scourge (hammer herald being the exception).

    With PoF Anet gave reveal to one new elite only (spellbreaker). I don't know why they favored it so much in one expansion (three out of nine professions got it) and so little in the next.

    yes i know wich ones are typically used. none of these are used specifically to apply reveal tho but because of secondary effects/skills that come with it. also the strongst one you forgot but it is a trait not a skill : lock on. it only goes on cd when actually revealing and has 2 seperate cooldowns of 20s each.
    again my point stays if you do not put in a reveal skill spcially to counter stealth , then stealth is not such a threat , not so common or both.

    Lock On is fantastic for holosmith. I just wish Anet had left the engi traitlines of Alchemy and Inventions alone as their attempt to strengthen Inventions and weaken Alchemy left the traitlines seeming to be companions to each other, leaving other traitlines like Tools out in the cold when it comes to trait synergy.

    My experience in WvW is that perma stealth thieves can definitely be a threat but they're less common than condi builds of various flavors or builds running a lot of cc. Stun breaks and condi clear take priority (for me) over reveal skills when those skills do neither.

    see they are not common enough or not powerful enough for you to take those skills. again if stealth was strong , people would run revealing skills mainly for the reveal and everything else on it as bonus and not ask for skills they like to get reveal as a bonus.

    I wouldn't mind seeing more reveal skills in the game spread out over more professions. Deadeye could've even gotten one in their rework (it would've made sense thematically; the deadeye has you in his sights).

    first we just had stealth, then we got reveal. after a while reveal skills, then more of em and now the first reveal remove. with more reveal will surely come more reveal remove. now if you rely on stealth you will take any reveal remove you can, but will you take any reveal you can if people already dont use their reveal, then adding more reveal and anti reveal will favor those using anti reveal.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    But back on topic of the Thread, @DeceiverX.8361 has the best way of going about managing this as I have also stated similar things in previous threads, promote the active use of stealth through entering/leaving and not camping

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    Sure, and I added to the ongoing facts being talked about, as part of a discussion on stealth stuff. Maybe some players knew, maybe they didn’t know about the reveal counter... This is a discussion about permasteath so I’m sharing some info and thoughts. That’s how conversations go and evolve.

    There are obvious issues here with stealth that need to be discussed and explored, but if you don’t like what a poster posts then you are free to ignore.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    Sure, and I added to the ongoing facts being talked about, as part of a discussion on stealth stuff. Maybe some players knew, maybe they didn’t know about the reveal counter... This is a discussion about permasteath so I’m sharing some info and thoughts. That’s how conversations go and evolve.

    There are obvious issues here with stealth that need to be discussed and explored, but if you don’t like what a poster posts then you are free to ignore.

    Again it had zero relevance to what myself and those others were discussing, same with you bringing up other games, they don’t have any relevance in this discussion since this is Gw2 not either of those non existent games. So please stay on topic.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    Sure, and I added to the ongoing facts being talked about, as part of a discussion on stealth stuff. Maybe some players knew, maybe they didn’t know about the reveal counter... This is a discussion about permasteath so I’m sharing some info and thoughts. That’s how conversations go and evolve.

    There are obvious issues here with stealth that need to be discussed and explored, but if you don’t like what a poster posts then you are free to ignore.

    Again it had zero relevance to what myself and those others were discussing, same with you bringing up other games, they don’t have any relevance in this discussion since this is Gw2 not either of those non existent games. So please stay on topic.

    I brought up a fact about reveal mechanics and alternative stealth system ideas and thoughts... in a topic about permastealth issues...

    Doesn’t matter what game they are from, they are stealth mechanic ideas. You act as if game developers don’t look for, and share, ideas about game mechanics...

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    Sure, and I added to the ongoing facts being talked about, as part of a discussion on stealth stuff. Maybe some players knew, maybe they didn’t know about the reveal counter... This is a discussion about permasteath so I’m sharing some info and thoughts. That’s how conversations go and evolve.

    There are obvious issues here with stealth that need to be discussed and explored, but if you don’t like what a poster posts then you are free to ignore.

    Again it had zero relevance to what myself and those others were discussing, same with you bringing up other games, they don’t have any relevance in this discussion since this is Gw2 not either of those non existent games. So please stay on topic.

    I brought up a fact about reveal mechanics and alternative stealth system ideas and thoughts... in a topic about permastealth issues...

    Doesn’t matter what game they are from, they are stealth mechanic ideas. You act as if game developers don’t look for, and share, ideas about game mechanics...

    You brought up a reveal counter in a discussion between three people that wasn’t about Counters to Reveal in any way shape or form, and bringing up non existent games in a discussion about a different existing game is really off topic since those games have zero Relevance especially since they don’t even exist in the market.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Sure it does... You say that there are sources of reveal, and I'm brining up the fact that you can remove reveal... I'm also bringing up the fact that GW2 doesn't have a fully developed stealth system in competitive modes, like some other games had, or will implement... and that's part of the larger discussion at hand.

    Again you did not add to the discussion between myself and the other two posters, since nothing you said has any bearing on what I stated and doesn’t change anything of what I stated, because you know someone else said there was no skills in gamer that can remove or stop stealth and another asked me to clarify what majority of classes meant, so bringing up SM has no relevance to either of those, them pesky facts, and bring up Dead games and upcoming games have zero bearing on this one since this is GW2 and not that Dead or that upcoming games. So try to keep it on topic.

    Sure I did. I added an additional fact to you answering a question, and additional thoughts for all posters about the stealth issue. This thread is not about any 1 or 2 people, it’s about ongoing problems with stealth mechanics, that are now exasperated.

    That additional fact had zero relevance to the discussion myeself anf those others were having, since no one stated there was no counter to Reveal, it was about Reveal existing and it existing on the majority of classes,.#context,.#rc and all the other added irrelevant anecdotes that you brought up about A Dead game and a game that doesn’t exist gets since you know they aren’t Gw2.

    So please try to stay on topic and not derail the thread.

    Sure, and I added to the ongoing facts being talked about, as part of a discussion on stealth stuff. Maybe some players knew, maybe they didn’t know about the reveal counter... This is a discussion about permasteath so I’m sharing some info and thoughts. That’s how conversations go and evolve.

    There are obvious issues here with stealth that need to be discussed and explored, but if you don’t like what a poster posts then you are free to ignore.

    Again it had zero relevance to what myself and those others were discussing, same with you bringing up other games, they don’t have any relevance in this discussion since this is Gw2 not either of those non existent games. So please stay on topic.

    I brought up a fact about reveal mechanics and alternative stealth system ideas and thoughts... in a topic about permastealth issues...

    Doesn’t matter what game they are from, they are stealth mechanic ideas. You act as if game developers don’t look for, and share, ideas about game mechanics...

    You brought up a reveal counter in a discussion between three people that wasn’t about Counters to Reveal in any way shape or form, and bringing up non existent games in a discussion about a different existing game is really off topic since those games have zero Relevance especially since they don’t even exist in the market.

    Told you I added a stealth fact of my own... Again, doesn’t matter where they are from, it’s idea sharing... You may not like it, and that’s your prerogative, but this thread is not about any individual poster... It’s about issues with permastealth...

    If you have any ideas to share, then share... If you want to ignore feedback, then ignore feedback... simple right?

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AfroMetal.5394 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @AfroMetal.5394 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    Ah yes, you talking about solo spellbreakers that kite around 30+ zergs?

    show me one, pls i beg you, no spellbreaker can survive even 3 ppl that read their skills and know when to use them, try again pls

    Really thanks for lowering difficulty threshold, cause couldn't find those of more trollish situaton when spellbreaker give his all into running away from zerg trying to kill him (for some they may be fun, but for some may be considered boring or shameful because no killing and running from fight) and I do not have time to look for really accurate evidence vid that would support my claim (~30 ppl zerg). Still got sth nice for you (3+ ppl):

    And next one, careful, spoiler - this spellbreaker will die at the end, but how long he/she played around...

    both vids almost a year old now, so many nerfs in the meantime, also enemies didnt read their skills, (they hardly even use anything) like i mentioned before, try again boi

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    those skills dont rly are viable, are hard to hit especially if he blinked away or just walked into another direction, and have to be equipped before the thief engages, nobody uses them while running around normally, because they are sooo bad

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    wait, u want to remove thiefs mobility? did u ever play thief?
    go run thief and dont use any mobility skills bet u wont win a single fight vs any player that has a avarage skill lvl.

    i said it needs a drawback, its just simply too kitten unfair and frustrating for everybody who has to deal with that
    cut down mobility or stealth durations/ ways to apply stealth

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    DE has an incredible amount of dodges? More than other professions? I mean...maybe if you take SoA and use it's active you'll get one extra dodge every 30s...
    Please explain.

    Simply using 40% endurance regen food allows for comparable dodges from the meta Mirage and Warrior/SB builds - and Mirage dodges are better.

    well deadeye maybe not so much but i wasnt talking about that alone, the othet aspect have lots of stealth etc too, also you can still trait to get better vigor etc
    and the fact that the dodge stuff was your only argument tells alot

  • FASTCAR.7831FASTCAR.7831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Velran.1052 said:
    It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

    I have NP or issues with thieves...that said : Some classes get 5-6 sec reveal on LONG CD.THis is just silly and useless 99.99999% of the time
    Any thief will shadow away or dodge or cleanse reveal and they keep attacking

    How about ranger pets can spot stealth full time :)

    LEGENDARY FASTCAR
    YOUTUBE BOOSTEDLASER

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