An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 13 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:
    After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:
    Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

    i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.

    1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).
      Attention: Silent Scope does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

    if you evade the inital hit , you still are not in combat = no stealth. they will remove the incombar restriction tho according to a dev post in the other thread as it is already limited by endurance wich doesnt generate faster out of combat i guess.

    So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

    this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

    1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).
      These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

    Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.
    You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

    we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

    1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.
      Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).
      Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

    i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.

    In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):
    Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
    There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.
    If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

    a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.
    i would prefer to have short duration unblockable buff option (e.g. while revealed), preferably replacing MI so we actually need to attack to get malice but we also have an easier time hitting our target then with that traited against heavy projectile hate.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:
    After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:
    Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

    i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.

    Well, maybe there is a difference of player-quality here.
    My opponents seem to have constant-evade,block/reflect up-time.
    Right now, there is no reliable dodge/stealth!
    I could play as aggresive with the old Knee/stealth system! (which was reliable)

    1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).
      Attention: Silent Scope does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

    if you evade the inital hit , you still are not in combat = no stealth. they will remove the incombar restriction tho according to a dev post in the other thread as it is already limited by endurance wich doesnt generate faster out of combat i guess.

    We will see.

    So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

    this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

    ...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!

    1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).
      These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

    Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.
    You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

    we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

    Well, it used to take max. 20-21 seconds (not1-2min) to build-up 7 malice stacks. You have to reach 7 stack to get initiative back (which I didn't need to be honest)

    1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.
      Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).
      Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

    i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.

    If you don't have issues hitting your targets, then you don't need malice at all, because they'll be dead by your none steath-finishers. ;-)

    In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):
    Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
    There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.
    If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

    a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.

    Maybe those who have run haven't heard about those changes yet. xD
    Usually they gather around those who are marked, good luck with fighting a larger group.
    I used to pick out single players even in a larger group on my own. Now, you can't because they will rezz them before you can down them!

    i would prefer to have short duration unblockable buff option (e.g. while revealed), preferably replacing MI so we actually need to attack to get malice but we also have an easier time hitting our target then with that traited against heavy projectile hate.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2018

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:
    After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:
    Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

    i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.

    Well, maybe there is a difference of player-quality here.
    My opponents seem to have constant-evade,block/reflect up-time.
    Right now, there is no reliable dodge/stealth!
    I could play as aggresive with the old Knee/stealth system! (which was reliable)

    i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.

    So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

    this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

    ...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!

    yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.

    1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).
      These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

    Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.
    You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

    we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

    Well, it used to take max. 20-21 seconds (not1-2min) to build-up 7 malice stacks. You have to reach 7 stack to get initiative back (which I didn't need to be honest)

    it did take 18-21 seconds without attacking and now it takes 1-2 mins without attacking, because the people on the recieving end didnt really enjoy this. the amount of players that will tryhard wait 1-2 minutes is alot lower then the amount of players that will wait 20s for a oneshot. ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.

    1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.
      Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).
      Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

    i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.

    If you don't have issues hitting your targets, then you don't need malice at all, because they'll be dead by your none steath-finishers. ;-)

    that is correct, many are so low when m7 kicks in that i go for another TRB/spotters instead of dodge and dj as it is faster. also endure pain and signet of stone are awesome malice sources. crit for 0 dmg => 2 malice :3

    In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):
    Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
    There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.
    If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

    a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.

    Maybe those who have run haven't heard about those changes yet. xD
    Usually they gather around those who are marked, good luck with fighting a larger group.
    I used to pick out single players even in a larger group on my own. Now, you can't because they will rezz them before you can down them!

    i did run into many DEs since patch in WvW testing the changes, they were indeed no threat at all. but after killing people a few times they will start to fear your mark again.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2018

    This could be fixed by having one of the offhand pistol skills give stealth. As it is, it's the only weapon set that can't stealth itself somehow (rifle has one, but it is clunky, being the use of #4 for the field, and kneel #4 for the finisher).

    The fly in the ointment here is d/p which already has high and easily stackable stealth access. Put more on off hand via Pistol and the dynamics of that entire spec change. Off hand Pistol with Headshot with its interrupt and potential PI and Black powder, with its Pulsing blind, smoke field and stealth access via leap are already very potent and trying to fit in added stealth will force a takeaway on one of the existing skills. Now it POSSIBLE that the last shot of the unload chain be deemed a blast finisher but that will load too much into that singular skill and we will still get the reveal when that last shot hits.

    SB is nother weaponset that does not have self stealth. The only real way to stealth while staying in SB is to Utility up a smoke field and this no different really then p/p using a utility for stealth.

    The underlying issue is we have a very limited range of weapons for off hand , that being Dagger and Pistol. If ONE of them does not allow stealth access then this affects half the builds we can make for two weapons. Fundamentally , just as staff and SB have no innate stealth access , there nothing wrong with a two weapon build not having the same issues within their skillset. The issue is there should be MORE weapon sets than not that can allow this if we are going to have a traitline that requires that stealth.

    As such I think the issue is really our variety of off hand weapons. I really think to address this the next expansion needs a NEW off hand weapon and this new offhand weapon has innate stealth access.

  • i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.

    I was talking about Spellbreaker actually. Hardest to kill due-to like 100% evade/block-time these days with right equipment/skills.

    ...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!

    yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.

    I was talking about opponent players here, not you. No need to feel offended.
    Good Spellbreaker and Holosmiths will hit that area and get them revealed the second a deadey will dodge-stealth towards a specific direction, if they can see where the dodging goes and stealth afterwards.

    ... ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.

    Deadeyes where able to spam DJs twice in a row (no skill in between needed) even if it cost 12 Initiative (even without Trickery; but with Shadow's Rejuvenation).
    I did it all the times. High risk, high reward. If they evaded the first, the 2nd did hit them more offen than not! xD

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2018

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:

    i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.

    I was talking about Spellbreaker actually. Hardest to kill due-to like 100% evade/block-time these days with right equipment/skills.

    oh spellbreakers, well they are melee usually and aside from bullscharge and triggered FC can be hit during each of their hits. so i kite them with mainly DR , if they want to attack or close gap other then bullscharge they will let me hit them. when they use shield, no matter how much malice i will fire a DJ , they can cancel block with dodge then or eat the shot. i dont wait till they are in melee with DR / stealth.

    ...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!

    yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.

    I was talking about opponent players here, not you. No need to feel offended.
    Good Spellbreaker and Holosmiths will hit that area and get them revealed the second a deadey will dodge-stealth towards a specific direction, if they can see where the dodging goes and stealth afterwards.

    no worries i am not offended but playerskill on their part is valuable as much as playerskill on yours. if you know your opponent is good enough to spike instantly the end of your roll, before you can leave that spot, then dont let them come that close to you before you go into stealth or only if you can dodge multiple times if you want to bait their attacks.

    ... ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.

    Deadeyes where able to spam DJs twice in a row (no skill in between needed) even if it cost 12 Initiative (even without Trickery; but with Shadow's Rejuvenation).
    I did it all the times. High risk, high reward. If they evaded the first, the 2nd did hit them more offen than not! xD

    i know i did it aswell. mostly put in 1-2 AA tho so they stop being defensive and try hit me while 2nd DJ hits them. for a pure oneshot rifle build that is correct that got nerfed. oneshot dagger got buffed in potency while probably nerfed in efficiency due to longer wait now. but as we can now use endurance for stealth and get ini back for reaching m7, we do have alot more resources we can use to attack our opponents. this promotes a more aggressive playstyle rather then just wait m7 and shoot.

    IMO the overall potential of a DE with a rifle in hand is alot better now simply cause better resource management and alot of uninterruptable stealth access.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jay Felger.2510 said:
    3. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.
    Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).
    Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

    In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):
    Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
    There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.
    If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

    That was something I had thought might happen with the change, i.e. the change to malice being at best (outside of dagger/dagger), only used to get some bonus effects from cantrips and other effects you might get form it are just extras, and at worst, just not using mark at all.

    Along with removing the glowing orb over someone's head (so at least the foes can't see it), making it instant-cast would also be welcomed.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    Deadeye as a trailtline is (mostly) fine.

    It really isn't. A quick list of issues, in my opinion, from a PvE perspective.

    • The new M7 mechanic is broken for dagger/dagger so either dagger/dagger or M7 needs a rework. It is hard to determine how well it will work with rifle given how bad rifle is currently. M7 should be the trait we take for higher sustained damage in instanced PvE.
    • Be Quick or Be Killed is still a higher sustained DPS option and this has no interplay with the new Malice mechanic. This trait should be for burst builds in PvP and open world PvE, not the best option for sustained raid encounter damage.
    • Fire for Effect doesn't provide enough Might and Fury for long enough (it needs to be 10 might on 10 people for 20 seconds or so) to offset a huge opportunity cost.
    • Collateral Damage is too weak and competes with One in the Chamber - the two should really be merged as they have different usage scenarios.
    • Payback is sadly useless in instanced PvE but could be a very interesting trait if it worked differently. Having Payback trigger when consuming Malice and the amount of cooldown reduction being proportional to the amount of Malice used would be a good interplay that would add a slight amount of complexity to Deadeye rotations.
    • Premeditation needs more concentration at a minimum if Fire for Effect isn't reworked since support Deadeyes have no access to Seeker's gear in PvE.

    Can you expand on your issues with Payback. I’d like to add this to the consolidated thread OP.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Doctor Hide.6345Doctor Hide.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    I just don't understand why any of these changes were made.

    If a certain build was dealing too much damage, then nerf the damage that skill combo was creating.

    Completely reworking the Deadeye, has destroyed the concept of the class as a "sniper".

    This class made Guildwars 2 better than any MMoRPG with the first Sniper class.

    These changes were unnecesary, and this balance patch was rushed and not tested properly before being implemented.

    Please redesign the DeadEye again, you failed Anet this time. Although I appreciate you trying to make changes, this time you royally screwed up.

    I have to correct you on something. While yes, I agree the changes were not necessary; GW2 was not the first MMORPG to have a Sniper class. Other MMOs have had Sniper classes before in the past. GW2 was just the first to do it some justice.

    If Life gives you lemons, put the lemons in a sack and beat up Life for giving you lemons in the first place.

  • Bish.8627Bish.8627 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't have any issue with the damage, but I think malice should be removable or lost when target is out of line of site. In WvW it can be attached to you, you can go far away and it remain, even if the thief can't see you.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2018

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Can you expand on your issues with Payback. I’d like to add this to the consolidated thread OP.

    @saerni.2584
    By all means. My issues with Payback primarily stem from how useless it is in instanced PvE, particularly fractal CMs and raids.

    As the talent stands it does the following:
    "When Renewing Gaze triggers, this trait restores a portion of the recharge time needed by your healing, utility, and elite skills."

    It activates as a result of Renewing Gaze which is gained by:
    "Deadeye's Mark recharges if your mark is defeated. Gain regeneration when this recharge occurs."

    Therefore, to reduce the recharge time of healing, utility and elite skills, the Marked target needs to die. In raids, this isn't going to happen very often - in some cases it will only be when the boss itself dies! The trait also offers little synergy while competing with Silent Scope (for Rifle) and Premeditation which are both likely to work out much stronger following fixes.

    If Payback also worked with Malice consumption to reduce recharge times of healing, utility and elite skills it would be a more valid choice in instanced PvE such as raids and would have far better synergy. For example, if the trait additionally offered "The recharge time needed by your healing, utility, and elite skills is reduced by 0.5 / 1 / 2 seconds when consuming three, five or seven Malice" as well then Payback could become a serious option in instanced PvE while offering far better synergy with the new Malice mechanic and M7. In addition, should we end up with a dagger/dagger heartseeker (x3), cloak and dagger, backstab rotation for a good DPS option, being able to choose Payback and thereby reduce other cooldowns would break up the monotony of the rotation by changing how often abilities like Shadow Flare can be used.

    It would create further usage scenarios - can you be sure of 9 boons? Run Premeditation. Are you using Rifle? Run Silent Scope. Happier with a more complex rotation for more frequent utilities or can't be guaranteed enough boons for Premeditation? Use Payback. One of the frequent complaints leveled at Thief is the simplicity of possible rotations - a Malice consuming Payback would add much needed complexity to dagger / dagger rotations.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @bearshaman.3421 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Yeah they really should put the stealth back onto the rifle #5 especially since the dodge roll requires you to use the rifle when doing it. Plus its not a daredevil so it has no endurance management and then weapons stated like s/p and p/p have very little access to stealth to use their malicious attack.

    This could be fixed by having one of the offhand pistol skills give stealth. As it is, it's the only weapon set that can't stealth itself somehow (rifle has one, but it is clunky, being the use of #4 for the field, and kneel #4 for the finisher).

    Yeah is just too much micromanagement in an actual fight in wvw to get instant stealth out of that rifle #4 then switching to a dagger or standing up to hit #4 standing rifle skill to activate stealth. I think they should change it to where the kneel out of combat stealths and then dodge roll while in combat would balance it. Then for like the offhand pistol some kind of stealth which also brings the shortbow one has a lot of condi application if it didn't reveal you like the projectile issue with rifle does too and better access to stealth than wasting a 30 second cd or the elite when you don't want to use it yet.

  • Adamsdjr.1350Adamsdjr.1350 Member ✭✭

    Things I can get over:
    -Lack of Stealth utility skills
    -Having Burst tied to stealth
    -A cumbersome and messy play style
    -The overall feel that you're playing a beta spec
    -The fact that the dead eye is somehow even more non-intuitive than it was before
    -The fact that Rifle is possibly the worst PVE weapon in the game

    What I can't get over:

    • The totally unpredictable, head-scratching, and frustrating way this game coded stealth. Seriously, if you're going to tie deadeye to stealth even harder, you HAVE to improve how stealth behaves. I've resorted to actually TURNING AROUND FROM MY TARGET, so a random auto attack doesn't break me out of stealth WITHOUT shooting DJ. If you're channeling an auto before you go into stealth to proc DJ, it'll actually break you out of stealth WITHOUT proccing DJ and puts your stealth utility on CD. It feels like actual garbage. Why would ANYONE bother with such a headache when you can just run p/p?
  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adamsdjr.1350 said:
    Things I can get over:
    -Lack of Stealth utility skills
    -Having Burst tied to stealth
    -A cumbersome and messy play style
    -The overall feel that you're playing a beta spec
    -The fact that the dead eye is somehow even more non-intuitive than it was before
    -The fact that Rifle is possibly the worst PVE weapon in the game

    I think that is one of the more interesting aspects of how badly this rework went. As Thieves, we've put up and shut up with a lot of bad changes or general neglect in PvE. I remember being completely mystified why Hook Strike received the 1 second stealth attack CD when the issue was clearly d/p, not staff. And Daredevil has been left basically untouched aside from a QoL change (Weakening Charge) and the Stolen Skills since about two years ago.

    We've tolerated quite a bit of questionable design as a community but with this rework we are finally speaking out, some of us for the first time. As a profession which can only offer DPS, we do that poorly compared other professions which can offer decent DPS and utility and support builds in PvE. Hopefully with these discussions that will change for the better.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    I only started trying out DE rifle this weekend . It took a while to get used to the changes but I am starting to get the hang of it. It if anything more survivable then before and
    DJ shot is not as bad as i was expecting it to be based on what I was reading here. I think if they get the stealth after the dodge a lot of issues solved. I would not mind seeing snipers cover be a bit more smooth such as auto place of the Smoke field or another second on duration. DJ damage it not as it once was on a singular hit but the unblockable nature of it results in me getting more hits in. It does not have the same "sniper feel" it once did but I am starting to prefer this more active form of malice over the one built on over time.

    I rejigged my build and found TR is no where near the must have it once was albeit the daze from SOH missed given there no longer an Unforgiving. Cursed bullet missed but I am switched over to rending shade to get that boon steal. It was just such a nice combo with Cursed. I really think there a place to put Cursed back. I am currently using DA/DE/SA .

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    Changing the steath from the beginning of the dodge roll to the end won't fix everything, if you use a short it will give you the reveal just as it does now...

    @Elrond.9486 said:
    The saddest part of it all is that from a mechanical, action point of view, GW2 has the best PvP combat in any of the big MMOs. And they completely waste it with the trash balance and by basically ignoring it for months and months.

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    The issue I have with the stealth at the end of the roll is that the opponent know where you will land. Yes, we can move after the roll, but I see this as a nerf in Pvp.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Volrath.1473 said:
    Changing the steath from the beginning of the dodge roll to the end won't fix everything, if you use a short it will give you the reveal just as it does now...

    I am not so sure on that. While I did have shots that revealed me current system , I started adapting to that so as to ensure it did not happen. Easier said then done in many instances when you also need that dodge to avoid damage but I would like to see end of roll as a comparison.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    The issue I have with the stealth at the end of the roll is that the opponent know where you will land. Yes, we can move after the roll, but I see this as a nerf in Pvp.

    The KNEEL for stealth did not require he knew where you landed as your stealth location was where you kneeled. I am not sure what the issue is here. When I used the old mechanic I tended to relocate once I used a kneel so as to prevent the area I was in getting bombed. I would do the same with Stealth at end of roll.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    The issue I have with the stealth at the end of the roll is that the opponent know where you will land. Yes, we can move after the roll, but I see this as a nerf in Pvp.

    In some ways yes, in other ways it's better as you'll have more stealth/evade uptime again as the two won't overlap like they do now.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'll be honest tho. I was skeptical before, but I actually hate these changes.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I know it was suggested Silent scope work with p/p on dodge allowing stealth after. I would suggest this.

    Silent scope works on dodge for stealth on dodge on ANY pure ranged weapon set. This means it would work with Rifle , it would work with P/P and it would work with shortbow but no other set would qualify.

  • Ghostt.1293Ghostt.1293 Member ✭✭✭

    Sadly I’m not happy with the rifle update revert DJ back to 4 and make standing rifle lots stronger tyvm for asking us for feed back

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    I just don't understand why any of these changes were made.

    If a certain build was dealing too much damage, then nerf the damage that skill combo was creating.

    Completely reworking the Deadeye, has destroyed the concept of the class as a "sniper".

    This class made Guildwars 2 better than any MMoRPG with the first Sniper class.

    These changes were unnecesary, and this balance patch was rushed and not tested properly before being implemented.

    Please redesign the DeadEye again, you failed Anet this time. Although I appreciate you trying to make changes, this time you royally screwed up.

    It seems like they always screw up with thief and somehow buff the already over performing mesmer :(

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    I just don't understand why any of these changes were made.

    If a certain build was dealing too much damage, then nerf the damage that skill combo was creating.

    Completely reworking the Deadeye, has destroyed the concept of the class as a "sniper".

    This class made Guildwars 2 better than any MMoRPG with the first Sniper class.

    These changes were unnecesary, and this balance patch was rushed and not tested properly before being implemented.

    Please redesign the DeadEye again, you failed Anet this time. Although I appreciate you trying to make changes, this time you royally screwed up.

    It seems like they always screw up with thief and somehow buff the already over performing mesmer :(

    Pretty much every profession aside from Druid was buffed to an extent in the most recent patch. Including Thief with the change to Thieves Guild and Assassin's Signet cooldowns. The only problem is that they weren't sufficient enough to pull Thief out of the doldrums of low DPS and low utility and they were coupled with this astoundingly bad Deadeye rework.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @Necronaut.6028 said:
    • The Thief class is so far behind other classes in PvE it's almost scary, since we have no other option but to play as a DPS class. In Fractals alone, it's really embarrassing.

    And even more embarrassing in raids. I don't feel I can join pugs anymore as Thief since I know that basically any other profession can provide more DPS and more utility. It has really killed my enjoyment of the game and I've gone from squeezing in full raid clears (with multiple repeat bosses) and plenty of open world despite a 60 hour work week to only logging in for dailies and for a couple of wings with friend groups that haven't yet told me I can't (occasionally) play Thief.

    I really hope Anet are doing something about this - when axe Mirage was nerfed due to the Confusion changes, their Confusion was changed to Torment within two days despite the profession having incredibly viable power and support options at the time as well as an okay staff condition build. Thief has nothing else to turn to - no healing, no support option - and Anet is taking even longer to put us into a reasonable place despite a few numerical changes likely enough to make us mediocre DPS without utility instead of a bad DPS without utility.

  • Doctor Hide.6345Doctor Hide.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @Necronaut.6028 said:
    • The Thief class is so far behind other classes in PvE it's almost scary, since we have no other option but to play as a DPS class. In Fractals alone, it's really embarrassing.

    And even more embarrassing in raids. I don't feel I can join pugs anymore as Thief since I know that basically any other profession can provide more DPS and more utility. It has really killed my enjoyment of the game and I've gone from squeezing in full raid clears (with multiple repeat bosses) and plenty of open world despite a 60 hour work week to only logging in for dailies and for a couple of wings with friend groups that haven't yet told me I can't (occasionally) play Thief.

    I really hope Anet are doing something about this - when axe Mirage was nerfed due to the Confusion changes, their Confusion was changed to Torment within two days despite the profession having incredibly viable power and support options at the time as well as an okay staff condition build. Thief has nothing else to turn to - no healing, no support option - and Anet is taking even longer to put us into a reasonable place despite a few numerical changes likely enough to make us mediocre DPS without utility instead of a bad DPS without utility.

    Haven't they always been this way about the Thief though? Scared to change it out of some fear it will make us too OP in PvP even though there are prof that trump everyone OP wise. Yet, they don't seem to care that prof is OP...Cough mirage

    If Life gives you lemons, put the lemons in a sack and beat up Life for giving you lemons in the first place.

  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited May 16, 2018

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @Doctor Hide.6345 said:
    Haven't they always been this way about the Thief though? Scared to change it out of some fear it will make us too OP in PvP even though there are prof that trump everyone OP wise. Yet, they don't seem to care that prof is OP...Cough mirage

    It is somewhat sad how some professions, especially Mesmer, have the world in pretty much every game mode. Good in PvP, a support build so essential it makes up 20% of raid and fractal compositions, a strong power DPS option and one of the best condi DPS options in the game with the option for some pretty good utility in the form of heavy CC. Similar things can be said about warrior, especially now that it sits at the top with condition DPS and Spellbreaker while still having brilliant support capacity because banners are far too good.

    Meanwhile, professions like Thief have so little, particularly in instanced PvE, and are still subject to botched reworks. It gets harder and harder not to feel like there is an inherent bias in the balance team.

    Well to be fair, they added pretty cool stolen skills for us in raids. At least it´s something in the right direction. That was a while ago tho...

  • Cameryn.5310Cameryn.5310 Member ✭✭✭

    I really wish the developers would come into this thread (or post a separate one) about how they're listening to all of this.

    Removing my issue (the uselessness of malie in a P/P deadeye build, because there are no inherent stealth traits built into the weapon spec) from the equation for the moment, it's very obvious that the deadeye changes were received incredibly poorly by most of the people posting here. I've seen them jump in fairly quickly on other specs/professions before, so I'm thinking maybe they just have absolutely no idea what to do. But it would be nice to know they're going to do SOMETHING.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah if this were the daredevil where its centered around endurance the dodging might be okay if the bugs didn't exist. Although it seems like they were trying to make it where you used sword/dagger right after using rifle for endurance but that just puts you in more of a bind as it is. They should just revert the trait back on the rifle for stealth but keep the rest of the way it is.

  • @Jay Felger.2510 said:
    After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:
    Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

    1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).
      Attention: Silent Scope does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

    So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

    1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).
      These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

    Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.
    You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

    1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.
      Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).
      Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

    In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):
    Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
    There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.
    If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

    Maybe leave the orb visible to us, but not the target. I have found it very useful for tracking mesmers through their clones.

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    @Robert Gee.9246 @Gaile Gray.6029

    Are you still paying attention? Will you commit to fixing thief in instanced PvE?

    https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

    An entirely selfish thief is now the third worst condi option of the benchmarked professions. Only scourge (which has epi and utility) and engineer (poor condi engineer) benchmark worse.

    Power deadeye and daredevil are now the two worst power DPS options of those benchmarked. We give up a lot of utility and CC to achieve that bottom of the barrel DPS and the damage patterns are such that we lack the burst advantage of other power DPS and the consistent damage away from the boss of condi. We have the worst of both worlds.

    Any sort of further statements on this would be really appreciated.

    Thieves were already borderline decent. To the point were even pugs would kick us out of the daily fractal quests party...

    Thief has no identify nor a role to fill in any aspect of the game...

    DPS wise we're at the bottom... Direct dmg or dot we can't keep up with the other professions.

    Less survivability then most, worst support in game and don't give me the mobility bs because in pve is worth noting, and in PvP other professions can outrun us.

    So where/how does the thief stand out from the other professions? (In a positive way)

    @Elrond.9486 said:
    The saddest part of it all is that from a mechanical, action point of view, GW2 has the best PvP combat in any of the big MMOs. And they completely waste it with the trash balance and by basically ignoring it for months and months.

  • @Volrath.1473 said:

    Thieves were already borderline decent. To the point were even pugs would kick us out of the daily fractal quests party...

    Thief has no identify nor a role to fill in any aspect of the game...

    DPS wise we're at the bottom... Direct dmg or dot we can't keep up with the other professions.

    Less survivability then most, worst support in game and don't give me the mobility bs because in pve is worth noting, and in PvP other professions can outrun us.

    So where/how does the thief stand out from the other professions? (In a positive way)

    You know, playing a weaver in fractals is like pulling teeth. Especially in pug groups. All of the big damaging skills are long channels (meteor shower, glyph of elements, ice bow 4, ice bow 5), or they require me to be in melee range (lightning hammer 4, FGS 4). Nearly all of them require the enemy to stand in one place for a long period of time, or else all the damage goes out the door. Now, a lot of these aren't issues in raids, but fractals are full of vets that do 14k damage in a single hit, while also running scattering about with ill defined areas of engagement. There's no worse feeling than when the Archdiviner decides to warp across the entire map just as you're dropping all your AoEs on him. It's so bad that I don't even run the max DPS spec: I keep arcane shield on my bar, just so I can complete my darn channels. I'm also locked in elements, so if I happen to need to CC or cleanse, tough cookies. The weaver is the only power DPS spec that has trouble solo killing the anomaly in CM100.

    Playing a thief, I have none of those problems. My evades are plenty, so it is really easy to survive. My damage is fast, consistent and chases the enemies. My CC is some of the best in the game. I have ample blind fields to disable vets or stop projectiles. I have a group condi cleanse/panic button in Signet of Agility. I can solo an anomaly just by using fist flurry. All the enemies get permanent weakness from all the spinning I do. When it comes to ease of use and defensive utilities, the Thief is really good. Shadow Refuge still shows its utility in places where players like to skip.

    Of course, none of this is true for the deadeye, which is a pretty big problem right now.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2018

    Not much of what you've written is even applicable (or useful) for Daredevil though. Firstly, it is worth checking https://discretize.eu/builds. It is out of date now but the reasons for taking Weaver over pretty much any DPS for 99 and 100CM still remain. It is absolutely the top pick still due to the massively high burst DPS which with frequent breaking of break bars puts Weaver miles ahead. The weaknesses of Daredevil haven't been resolved either.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    Playing a thief, I have none of those problems. My evades are plenty, so it is really easy to survive.

    Really though, unless you are doing something wrong your evades aren't that much more plentiful because you have to use them rotationally. Survival also isn't an issue when Druids give constant protection and Chronomancers put out as many boons as they do. So having (and needing to use) more dodges isn't really that beneficial.

    My damage is fast, consistent and chases the enemies.

    Your damage isn't actually that fast. You have no burst. Certainly Daredevil has consistent damage but you actually want burst damage in fractals so that it can be overlapped with break bars being broken. Your damage also doesn't "chase" the enemy - you aren't condi with the build you've been describing. What you mean is that you physically chase the boss or add spawns.

    My CC is some of the best in the game.

    True, but CC isn't a problem - which is why multi-Weaver groups are considered meta and the best for speed killing. CC can be adequately brought by other people. Sure we can backup and have some emergency CC but so can pretty much every other DPS spec. Our heaviest CC (Basilisk Venom) also depends on people being stacked before post-break bar burst phases. That isn't always the case.

    I have ample blind fields to disable vets or stop projectiles.

    And how often do you see people advertising in LFG for "blinds"? This is a non-issue since trash in fractals and raids is trivial and there are better and more plentiful sources of damage mitigation. Blinds are also pretty useless utility on bosses which is what instanced PvE should be balanced around as it is what matters.

    I have a group condi cleanse/panic button in Signet of Agility. I can solo an anomaly just by using fist flurry. All the enemies get permanent weakness from all the spinning I do. When it comes to ease of use and defensive utilities, the Thief is really good. Shadow Refuge still shows its utility in places where players like to skip.

    Signet of Agility is lovely, I adore it but, again, we are backing up a role that should already be covered. Fist flurry really isn't brilliant burst damage and other professions can also solo an anomaly easily. Weakness and vulnerability are plentiful from other sources. The defensive utilities we have aren't useful on bosses. Again, it is bosses where what we can bring is truly important.

    Of course, none of this is true for the deadeye, which is a pretty big problem right now.

    And, sadly, not much of it is really useful for giving merit to Daredevil in raids and fractals - which is why other posters, including myself, have plentiful experience of being kicked from pug raids and fractals for being a Thief of either spec, your kill proof and experience be damned. This is because what we bring, as outlined above, isn't actually that useful, it isn't unique and it certainly doesn't make up for us being absolutely bottom of the barrel for power DPS (we are nearing Power Reaper and Renegade level) while also lacking the burst damage profile of power DPS which makes them desirable when bosses have break bars. It isn't just Deadeye that needs substantial improvements, Daredevil and even core Thief do as well. We aren't in a good place.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2018

    Update concerning fractals available here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8kdu89/dt_balance_patch_0508_fractal_meta_changes/

    I'll just quote from them directly because it highlights an issue that all variants of Thief face in PvE;

    The changes to Deadeye didn't do anything, while it's easier to generate Malice now, the problems with missing burst and general scaling still exist. Thief remains an awkward, below average DPS build.

    If Anet doesn't want to make one variant of Thief decent in instanced PvE, then fine. It is their game. But if that is the design direction, can we get some communication so we can all either reroll or jump to a game that treats players of less popular professions decently?

    It's been well over a week and we have no updates aside from fixing an obvious bug. That alone won't do anything to help PvE Thief out of the hole it is in.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    If Anet doesn't want to make one variant of Thief decent in instanced PvE, then fine. It is their game. But if that is the design direction, can we get some communication so we can all either reroll or jump to a game that treats players of less popular professions decently?

    this exact thing has been on my mind recently, it's why i stopped playing regularly (only logging in now playing my ele to help PvE with my friends) because i have come to the conclusion that Anet doesn't care about my favourite class (thief).

    now i don't demand it to be the top DPS but just something that does viable, respectable output.. enough to be considered as an alternative to the present meta. the dev's lack of regular communication and/or cherry picking responses regardling all the issues and complaints regarding thief is enough to tell me that they don't care much. one thing i miss from FF14 coming to gw2 was that dev's there listened and made/reverted changes as needed when people gave enough evidence/facts and/or complained enough that a certain issue or balance breaking thing isn't to be overlooked or ignored.

    of course, i'd like the devs here to change my mind and convince me otherwise but i doubt.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2018

    Many of the advantages you've outlined, aren't actually advantages. I implore you to log some of your runs. See how useful those blind fields are in a PvE environment where trash doesn't matter because of what other professions bring. See how Daredevil (and Deadeye) doesn't have burst DPS compared with other professions, despite Fist Flurry and Bound / Vault rotations - this is pretty well agreed on by anyone that looks at benchmarks or damage patterns from Arc DPS and is one of the reasons why Thief isn't well accepted in instanced PvE.

    I could spend some time discussing all the points further but clearly that isn't worth it given;

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You're trying to defend someone who said that thieves have no identity, no role, poor survivability, the worst DPS, and no support in any aspect of the game, and this is blatantly false. Your argument for this is that none of the thieves skills are valuable, because you like to play exclusively with comps built to make their support redundant and in content where all you do is sit in one place attacking a single enemy who was designed specifically to be out-healed, and you don't feel like every other place in the game should count. This is a terrible argument. Quoting someone else who makes the same terrible argument doesn't make it stop being terrible. You can make it gigantic and fight people on every single phrase they say, but meticulous madness is still madness.

    One of your quotes works perfectly here.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    steaming pile of misinformation

    I run Fire for Effect Might share Thief in raids and fractals where I can. I also play this pretty much permanently in open world and dungeons. I've Might shared to help unsure Druids and new players successfully on encounters like VG, Samarog and Deimos (before the changes to Rifle) amongst others while running meta and off-meta builds as my groups allow. I've done 99CM and 100CM as a Might share Deadeye with my partner playing Magi Tempest healer and tend to prefer the T4 groups where you bring whatever and make it work. I certainly do not go out of my way to build compositions which let me "sit in one place attacking a single enemy". My raid groups typically run slightly off-meta compositions too, valuing the additional utility that professions can bring. Before PoF, I loved running Fractals as Daredevil and sure, way back at the beginning of HoT, those blinds and bounds definitely proved useful however with PoF and the immense amount of power creep, growing player experience as they tackle content that is over two years old and the increased utility of other professions, what Thief brings really isn't that special, unique or even useful.

    But this is the problem that happens when you decide to attack the person through straw men - you don't actually know how that person plays and when you come out with fabricated scenarios that don't hold weight it just makes you look silly. That I'm having to defend personal attacks because people don't like hearing of Thief being in a bad spot in raids and fractals is kind of sad, especially when all evidence points to that fact.

    Now, that isn't to say you have some good points. I agree with you fully on how DPS should be balanced, I've already expressed my sympathies in this thread and others regarding other poorly balanced professions and I definitely agree that condition builds are undervalued in fractals. I'd also like to apologize since my discussions and arguments contrary to your points apparently weren't well received and I don't think discussions devolving to this level are useful when we're both, ultimately, trying to achieve much the same thing otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing the terrible state of a profession we both clearly love.

    But you went for the personal attacks. You talk me down as squabbling and arguing minutia, and proceed to be worse. You try to discredit by constructing personal falsehoods. So you can take your own advice;

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Don't try to "win", don't try to "get what you want", try to have a broad perspective aspire to have a critical mind.
    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In the future, have an ounce of damned respect for someone

    And again, my apologies for making you feel such a post was necessary.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    On a happier note;

    I'll say that I was pleasantly surprised with how the new Malice interaction with Backstab is working on fights like Keep Construct during the stun phase. For a quick band aid number fix, making the Malice consumption damage increase even 12% instead of 10% would work well. It still doesn't fix the gameplay loop though and I'd be concerned that a heartseeker heavy rotation for Deadeye would hamper us further by removing the small amount of cleave that we do bring.

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭

    Hate to say it but it is official...

    I have reactivate my wow account and with the expansion coming up in August... I'll come back next year to see how things are.

    Until then gl and hf.

    /Out

    @Elrond.9486 said:
    The saddest part of it all is that from a mechanical, action point of view, GW2 has the best PvP combat in any of the big MMOs. And they completely waste it with the trash balance and by basically ignoring it for months and months.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @Volrath.1473 said:
    Hate to say it but it is official...

    I have reactivate my wow account and with the expansion coming up in August... I'll come back next year to see how things are.

    Until then gl and hf.

    /Out

    I'll admit to being in a similar spot. Despite playing Guild Wars 2 pretty much exclusively since mid 2015, I've now started to dabble with Warframe, recently reactivated WoW and I'm thinking of downloading FFXIV again.

    Ironically, I got back into GW2 during 2015 because the class I was playing in another game felt gutted by a rework and the new play style didn't sit well with me and I started trying out older games I had drifted away from.