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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Bakeneko.5826" said:Raid comps let bad players do good in fractals, there is no more old "you fail, you die", meta made it "You fail, druid will outheal the damage in no time". Time and time again I join n+ KP runs and people fail Oasis, which is pure pre rework fractal experience - you get hit a few times, you die, because they expect druid to just outheal the damage. Social Awkwardness can be ignored by druid, because how much healing he can dish out. Fractals need harsher Agony punishment do stop druids just out healing high hitting attacks in 2 seconds and letting players ignore SA

So much wrong stuff in your post, sigh.
  • You can't outheal social awkwardness and you cannot ignore it. Try standing inside each other and you'll wipe.
  • I don't believe you about your joining of KP runs and a lot of failure on Oasis. The most experienced groups are using around 100 KP and they barely fail. Maybe they wipe from time to time but that's not the general outcome.
  • The real meta comps breeze through CMs + T4 and it's most likely that you have no clue about the skill level and speed those groups have. Sometimes I run t4 fractals - not cms - on my twink account - non-meta and meta groups. Usually both are terrible compared to the high KP groups I join on a daily basis on my main acc.

Yeh lol SA can be painful.The group support role needs to be more alert and manage agony stack lol there was one Maitrin t4 a while back and SA was mislock. A war in the group kept typing to me - druid stack with group to heal (&we werent even suffer all HP and might were full lol) /sigh

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@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

20ish minutes maybe slightly more

Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

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I recommend u guys to turn DPs meter off in fractal and enjoy the run lol ??You see fractal daily reset daily.. if everyday you have to get angry with the run then you better don't do it.. bad for health :p turn that dps meter off if you can't prevent urself from nosing how other play lol .. Try some meditation... Find ur inner peace.. amen

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@Eramonster.2718 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

20ish minutes maybe slightly more

Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

Nope, so what happened is we had a chrono for the entire run and their internet went out right before arkk (they were another friend of ours). So we filled their spot with another chrono who was the one complaining about a quick arkk kill. We explained that we one shot the fractal and they didn't really give a kitten. We didnt do it the way they wanted us to and flamed for it. There isnt any reasonable explanation for their bevahior other than being an unacceptable child that wasnt raised properly.

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@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

20ish minutes maybe slightly more

Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

Nope, so what happened is we had a chrono for the entire run and their internet went out right before arkk (they were another friend of ours). So we filled their spot with another chrono who was the one complaining about a quick arkk kill. We explained that we one shot the fractal and they didn't really give a kitten. We didnt do it the way they wanted us to and flamed for it. There isnt any reasonable explanation for their bevahior other than being an unacceptable child that wasnt raised properly.

Sound like dat chrono pug had a bad day ?? forgive him lol

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I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

This wouldn't change anything. Even if raids or fractals would be tuned down, most of the players will always ask for the best comp to do the content in pugs. That's the nature of the beast. Look at WoW. Different difficulty levels for raids and inis and the forums is full of complains about ''elitisim'' in terms of way to high conditions to join or be accepted in pugs even for the lowest difficult level. Guilds or premate groups are the best thing to avoid this. In my guild we take everyone into every type of content except raids. We do fractal runs with 3 bearbows and 2 necros.

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@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

GW2 raids are casual when compared to other MMOs. No need to go below the already existing easy mode.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

GW2 raids are casual when compared to other MMOs. No need to go below the already existing easy mode.

Pls stop comparing to others this is gw 2 not another mmo if ppl think its to hard its for them in their perspective

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@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

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People that need to be solo-carried by such builds won't complain about you playing them (because they likely run weird builds too).

Its the people that do not need to get carried that complain.

You can carry people with full glass dps builds, there is no need to go defensive in fractals anyways.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

I understood nothing.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

  1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
  2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
  3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
  4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
  5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

I understood nothing.

What he is saying, basically - if you are kicked from party, you stay in instance, aka troll, by not letting another person in

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@Bakeneko.5826 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

I understood nothing.

What he is saying, basically - if you are kicked from party, you stay in instance, aka troll, by not letting another person in

What it should do is kick that person out of the party's instance, but boot him into his own instance, as if the party had left his instance. I have no idea how the servers work or if this is even possible, but that would be ideal. Then the discriminated player can just LFG and reform his own party.

As far as removing a party's ability to boot a player out of an instance, I believe that would cause more problems than it would fix. Example: A player who truly is holding a party back "because it does happen" could refuse to leave the instance for the party to be able to pick up an adequate teammate. This would force 4 players who deserve to finish the fractal, to have to restart the fractal. This wouldn't help matters any.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.
  1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
  2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
  3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
  4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
  5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.
  1. I said" play however you want, unless you detract from the group success". Not sure why you got confused.
  2. With number 1 in mind, any build that gets the job done within reasonable time is good. Again, not sure why you mix up things. Dps reve? Sure. Is it meta? No. Do i care? No.
  3. Didnt watch, sorry.
  4. Why do you call it bad build? The fella obviously WANTED to play however HE wanted. You disagree with yourself? Small headsup here, not every person who wants stuff done within a reasonable time frame is an elitist. Anything goes, heal fb/engi heal/dps reve /dps reaper etc. But they need to actually kill stuff and clear stuff and not wipe 12 times at the chaos boss. Will the t4 take 10more mins to clear with a non meta group? I dont care. You bring a bad build cause its inconvenient for you to carry your own weight/dont understand basic stuff? That may be a problem.
  5. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

Finally, you put a lot of words in my mouth. You could just reread what i wrote. "elitism this elitism that" is all you keep spewing left and right. For the Last time, I do not care if your build is not in metabattle/snowcrows. You pull your own weight? Thats more than fine. You suck at what youre supposed to do? Dont take being kicked as discrimination/elitism. Just get better at What is expected of you.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.

You seem to be misunderstanding something here.In both cases you most often can finish the encounter when somebody dies. I've killed Matthias on multiple occasions with 5/10 people dead. The point of wiping usually isn't that you can't finish, it's that it makes no sense. When you wipe, it's because it's the faster and safer way. Which I'd pick 10 out of 10 times instead of relying on someone who does no damage to eventually wear the boss down. And if he insist on soloing it, frankly I'd kick him with no hesitation and no regrets.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:
  • T4s are not difficult content.
  • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
  • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.
  1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
  2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
  3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
  4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
  5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.
  1. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

I don't understand where you're finding all of this difficulty in fractals. Each day I quite seriously create "T4 Dailies" with no other listed requirement, and then I complete the dailies within 30 to 40 minutes without ever having a single fail or need to boot someone from a party. Sometimes with the right party, we can clear in 25 minutes'ish. Then I do a separate LFG for CMs "CMs Pots & Food", I take in every player regardless of team comp and begin play. If a player is struggling I take the time to teach them the fractal and 9/10 times we succeed after a simple 60s explanation of the CM. The only time I ever have to boot players is the truly rare occurrence that someone joins a T4 CM who is inexperienced with a completely inadequate build like you mentioned before, some cleric/soldier bunker, who is somehow still dying during the fractal. If the party can't pull his weight, then we have to boot, but usually people just let these guys tag along and we finish the fractal anyway, not a big deal.

I just don't understand where player are finding such difficulty in fractals where, if they don't put together perfect raid subgroup metas, they wipe over and over and can't succeed. Like... most of the T4 content is solo'able, outside of things like "stand on 2 panels while 1 person gets on mechanism".

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@Feanor.2358 said:

  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.

You seem to be misunderstanding something here.In both cases you most often
can
finish the encounter when somebody dies. I've killed Matthias on multiple occasions with 5/10 people dead. The point of wiping usually isn't that you
can't
finish, it's that it makes no sense. When you wipe, it's because it's the faster and safer way. Which I'd pick 10 out of 10 times instead of relying on someone who does no damage to eventually wear the boss down. And if he insist on soloing it, frankly I'd kick him with no hesitation and no regrets.

It just amounts down to what is going to be faster, solo finish in 5 minutes from a reliable player or /gg. I mean, if the party wipes when a boss is 50% yeah of course you want to /gg, but if the party wipes when the boss is like 3%-5% health, it just depends on who it is that is still alive.

You also have to consider that strong players get tired of /gging with a group that they know has a high chance of wiping in the same exact way again, and then having to /gg again. So if a boss is less than 10% health and they know they can just finish the damn fractal without needing to /gg, they do it and it saves time. I've had to do this many times in 99CM specifically vs. MAMA and Ensolyss. People always get salty about it but w/e, I'd rather get through the fractal in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours due to politely /gging for inexperienced players over and over.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

  • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.

You seem to be misunderstanding something here.In both cases you most often
can
finish the encounter when somebody dies. I've killed Matthias on multiple occasions with 5/10 people dead. The point of wiping usually isn't that you
can't
finish, it's that it makes no sense. When you wipe, it's because it's the faster and safer way. Which I'd pick 10 out of 10 times instead of relying on someone who does no damage to eventually wear the boss down. And if he insist on soloing it, frankly I'd kick him with no hesitation and no regrets.

It just amounts down to what is going to be faster, solo finish in 5 minutes from a reliable player or /gg. I mean, if the party wipes when a boss is 50% yeah of course you want to /gg, but if the party wipes when the boss is like 3%-5% health, it just depends on who it is that is still alive.

You also have to consider that strong players get tired of /gging with a group that they know has a high chance of wiping in the same exact way again, and then having to /gg again. So if a boss is less than 10% health and they know they can just finish the kitten fractal without needing to /gg, they do it and it saves time. I've had to do this many times in 99CM specifically vs. MAMA and Ensolyss. People always get salty about it but w/e, I'd rather get through the fractal in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours due to politely /gging for inexperienced players over and over.

Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

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