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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@Vinceman.4572 said:

Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

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@Bakeneko.5826 said:

Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

That's what I was saying but @Trevor Boyer.6524 has a different opinion.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

That's what I was saying but @Trevor Boyer.6524 has a different opinion.

I mean, if someone wants to show how good they are, they can try, because it is possible, but it will look even worse when it fails

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So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

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@"Martimus.6027" said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created? Do you want to, by Developer force, tell someone else how they have to play this game? That's the road you are going down.

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs. But don't go to the city council hall meeting and tell the mayor to force your neighbor to cut his grass and landscape his yard according to your own idea of how it should be.

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@Martimus.6027 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with. So the idea of what you said: "Just make your own group" half of the time, isn't working. Why isn't it working? Because of discrimination vs. even slightly off meta builds.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

.........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it. What they did was garbage. Not arguing that. But what do you expect to be done about it?

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

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@Martimus.6027 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

.........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

.........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

People are always going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

Do you guys read anything? I'm talking about the very frequent scenario that every other poster is also talking about, where it is the guy who is running slight off meta who is being vote kicked. He can't just turn around and vote kick 2 or 3 people who are trying to vote kick him and expect all of those players to be vote kicked by each other. The inevitable happening is that the player being discriminated against, is going to be the one who gets kicked, even when he does not want to leave the party, even when he has contributed adequately, and even when he was the one who started the LFG to begin with.

You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance. It does happen often. Not so much to those of us with 30k APs, most people see 30k AP and they give you the benefit of a doubt when you're running some custom build. But players with like 6k APs, they get vote kicked almost immediately. Don't even respond and act like you haven't done this yourself during CMs. Even I have.

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@Martimus.6027 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

.........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

People are
always
going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

Again, if you had read anything in this thread at all, you'd see that we've already come to this conclusion multiple times over, and that is -> Don't blindly discriminate based on raid meta elitism. Give players a chance to prove their worth first. If they're bad, holding the group down, and need to be booted, no one is questioning that type of party kick.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Martimus.6027 said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

.........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

People are
always
going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

Again, if you had read anything in this thread at all, you'd see that we've already come to this conclusion multiple times over, and that is -> Don't blindly discriminate based on raid meta elitism. Give players a chance to prove their worth first. If they're bad, holding the group down, and need to be booted, no one is questioning that type of party kick.

I am not going to read 14 pages of posts, but those aren't solutions. You're right though I should have read more than I did, and I accept fault for that. My apologies. But..... That's attempting to change human nature and wanting people to play how you want them to.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:So to sum up:

"Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

Do you guys read anything? I'm talking about the very frequent scenario that every other poster is also talking about, where it is the guy who is running slight off meta who is being vote kicked. He can't just turn around and vote kick 2 or 3 people who are trying to vote kick him and expect all of those players to be vote kicked by each other. The inevitable happening is that the player being discriminated against, is going to be the one who gets kicked, even when he does not want to leave the party, even when he has contributed adequately, and even when he was the one who started the LFG to begin with.

You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance. It does happen often. Not so much to those of us with 30k APs, most people see 30k AP and they give you the benefit of a doubt when you're running some custom build. But players with like 6k APs, they get vote kicked almost immediately. Don't even respond and act like you haven't done this yourself during CMs. Even I have.

It's so common it happens to a handful of people a handful of times out of the who knows how many fractal runs that happen on a daily basis. Total epidemic

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Hmm, the problem of a label "T4 Dailies" is you can get both meta and off-meta people. The label can have a wide range of expectation. Either the attitude "I don't care, let's just play T4s. We'll do it." or "This group needs to be a successful team to finish T4s." (I made it vague on purpose here. It can also mean a lot more.)

If you want to make sure to not get certain players you should be very precise with your lfg. Something like "T4 Dailies - relaxed run but know your stuff" will help much more finding relevant players. I bet 99% of meta players will ignore it or if they join don't say any word at all unless it's not a big disaster a.k.a. wiping over and over again on a certain encounter. Meta players just do it the other way round. They set up requirements and strict class selection to ensure they get the people they want to clear stuff in their favorite style/speed.Sure, sometimes you get "wrong" players into your group. Happens to both variants, I know. But let's be honest it's not that this happens at remarkable numbers.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance.

No, you're missing the ultimate point. You can't force others to behave like you want them. Discrimination will always happen, regardless what you do. Just learn to deal with it. It isn't that hard, really.

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@Feanor.2358 said:No, you're missing the ultimate point. You can't force others to behave like you want them. Discrimination will always happen, regardless what you do. Just learn to deal with it. It isn't that hard, really.

Lol this.. wish I've seen the look on their faces when they were dealt with.. but knowing is enough. ^^

@Trevor Boyer.6524, I feel you.., but people like that aren't going away anytime soon without enforcement.. and they make out about a good portion of the people lurking in PvE at the moment, don't think its healthy for any game to just rip a hole into its populace.. Thus said better to stop wasting your time here, its far more rewarding being proactive, just take screens/ solid proof and report improper actions accordingly.

Also, honestly GW2 is pretty low on the toxicity scale compared to a lot of other mmorpgs out there.. thats because it is actually being enforced to a certain degree.. have faith in the system. ;D

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You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

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There is this thing in game called "chat window". It is used to communicate.If you are playing an off-meta build just inform the group (even if its you own lfg) what you wanna play and if its okay. If they say it isnt then kick/leave and find a new party, if they give you a chance then prove yourself. Most of these "discriminating" and "kitten the elitists" complaints can be avoided by communicating with others.

Play with those people that have the same mentality as you. And because they cant read your mind you have to inform and tell them (in chat, in lfg) what and how you wanna play.

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@"vaxjani.9073" said:There is this thing in game called "chat window". It is used to communicate.If you are playing an off-meta build just inform the group (even if its you own lfg) what you wanna play and if its okay. If they say it isnt then kick/leave and find a new party, if they give you a chance then prove yourself. Most of these "discriminating" and "kitten the elitists" complaints can be avoided by communicating with others.

Play with those people that have the same mentality as you. And because they cant read your mind you have to inform and tell them (in chat, in lfg) what and how you wanna play.

Now see, that's just more discrimination.

  • Expect the person who made an LFG, who opened the fractal to begin with, to ask other people if it's ok that he plays his build in a plain labeled "T4 Dailies"? And if not, he is supposed to leave the game he opened initially and go make another, waiting for acceptance from other players that it is ok to play his build before he plays the game? No, just no. That's dumping all responsibility of this issue onto the head of the guy who isn't "playing a meta". Whilst you mention nothing about the responsibilities of good communication and etiquette on the part of users who are "playing meta". Apparently they can do whatever they want and others should have to just deal with it. That behavior is the very definition of discrimination.
  • Play with others who have the same mentality as I do? I just don't care who I play with, that's the point. I make a bland "T4 Dailies" each day, and complete it in 30 to 45 minutes, regardless of who joins. Sometimes the group is amazing, sometimes it's a group I have to carry in a little red wagon behind me, the entire way through. If it's a fractal that I require teammates who SURVIVE to be able to complete, such as 2 panels and 1 mechanism, then sometimes I also have to vote kick. But I always give players a chance to prove they are capable of completing the fractal before vote kicking based on blind raid meta discrimination. The point being is that when you LFG you don't know who is going to join your group. Because I label it bland "T4 Dailies" does not mean that elitist players won't join. Because I label it "T4 Dailies Meta Only Need Chrono/Druid", doesn't mean that those players will join. Because I label it "T4 Dailies All Welcome", doesn't mean some 2 man team who joins who are elitist, won't get impatient with some new player and begin to vote kick him just because they noticed his DPS was lacking. If a 3rd person vote kicks that guy, he gets booted out and there isn't anything I can do about it as the person who opened that "All Welcome" fractal. Is it fair that the new guy got booted out of a group that said "All Welcome"? No it isn't, and it's a petty thing to do to someone after joining an obviously bland labeled or all welcome fractal.

Players need to take responsibility for their own behavior rather than trying to push it off on others.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

See. It's not that I'm defending kicking. I'm explaining why it will always happen and you can do nothing against it. Complaining is pointless. You got kicked? Go on an make your own LFG. You get kicked again? Go on and make another. Kinda sucks, but it's the thing you can actually do. Whining that players shouldn't do it won't change anything. And let me also say that if the pattern of kicking persists, then perhaps you're stretching yourself too far. Perhaps you're overestimating your own contribution, or perhaps you're underestimating the difficulty of the content, perhaps because you're often being carried through it. Not necessarily, just perhaps.

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