Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

See. It's not that I'm

defending

kicking. I'm

explaining

why it will always happen and you can do nothing against it. Complaining is pointless. You got kicked? Go on an make your own LFG. You get kicked again? Go on and make another. Kinda sucks, but it's the thing you can

actually

do. Whining that players shouldn't do it won't change anything. And let me also say that if the pattern of kicking persists, then

perhaps

you're stretching yourself too far. Perhaps you're overestimating your own contribution, or perhaps you're underestimating the difficulty of the content, perhaps because you're often being carried through it. Not necessarily, just perhaps.

And it cycles back around again for the bump and the troll. Look, I'm not posting this on behalf of myself. I run all meta builds on all classes and have no problems clearing T4 and CM fractals. Sometimes I do run random custom things in T4 normal though, out of curiosity/wanting something different, particularly core builds. I like to see if I can arrange them in to something semi-viable. I am posting this from a standpoint of community awareness, seeing as how elite raid meta has blinded players from weighting their vote kicks correctly. This doesn't happen 100% of the time I am playing so don't put words into my mouth. But it does happen somewhat frequently and I see a few really unfair kicks a week, at the least. Things like this:

• People generally leave a bad group if wipe at MAMA, the mindframe is usually "just leave now before it's a waste of time" <- Not a problem here
• Party wipes once or twice at Siax. Siax is a DPS based challenge yes, but it also about surviving. After that bad wipe or two, people get weird with wanting to ensure their slot in the party so they start pointing fingers at anyone but themselves. So if 4 guys are running meta builds, unless one of them stands out greatly as the source of a problem, they will look at some guy who is running a slightly lower DPS benchmark than a meta build and begin vote kicking him because it's easy to do and it's the 1st step towards staying in the party to get your credit. The point being is that I'll see that the wipe was not due to a lack of DPS, but rather people just dying and stupid times. But lo and behold they cry "not enough DPS" or "we need a chrono, not this guy" as if it has anything to do with surviving the snake phase. Sure you could argue that faster DPS equates to survival, and in some situations it indeed does, but not always. In some situations, people just need to stay alive to be able to DPS in the first place. But this new elite mentality creates aversion from the source of actual problems and allows discrimination to blame anyone who is not running meta. It is an ignorant practice. Is it fair for the guy who was surviving and dealing enough DPS to solo his own snake? No it's not. You can argue that "party kicking just happens so deal with it" but that's not the point.
• Party wipes at Ensolyss due to sheer inability to survive the cap phase. Again, some guy starts getting frustrated and rather than acknowledging that the wipe is happening due to INABILITY TO SURVIVE, he starts complaining about 1 or 2 players lower DPS because it is frustrating him that it is taking longer to DPS Ensol back to the cap phases, than expected benchmarks. Out of sheer frustration, they begin vote kicking anyone who is not on a meta build, because they want the run to go faster. Again, it is an ignorant practice. The players who were lower DPS were the players capable of solo capping their own node easily and who sometimes were able to double cap before going down. If the entire party were comprised of those types of builds/players, they would 1 shot Ensolyss. It may take the amount of the time of two speedy high DPS Ensol kills combined, but it gets done. So rather than acknowledge that those players should stay and get the credit they have worked for and carried for, they get vote kicked because a meta elitist is getting frustrated with a lower DPS count down vs. the cap phase. When in reality, the source of the problem are the meta elite DPSers who are not able to survive on their meta builds. They should be getting kicked, not the guys with lower DPS who can actually complete the fractal.
• ect.. ect.. ect.. Same thing in 100. I see it happen the most frequently directly after the first boss, regardless of fail or success. Even if a successful 1 shot, just about every other time I am in a 100 CM, some guy has to pick out someone who he feels isn't meeting DPS standards, and tries to kick him. Is it fair that a player gets kicked because he will add +2 minutes onto the completion time of a 100CM? No it isn't, that's ridiculous.

Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

[Alaya.8765]

Well I do not know about normal T4 toxic elitists but if you look at the way everyone behaves online it is easy to see that the less information a LFG gives you the higher the randomness of said LFG group can be.

If a group says "T4 Daily Meta only" you can expect a kick for anything not core meta since ppl want it that way even if it mostly can be nonsense but the LFG said so.

If a group says "chill run" , "fun run", "no meta" etc you can assume it is going to be exactly as it was advertised. Well you can still get someone annoying who does not shut up about build, dmg or whatever who either joins just so he can flame and has fun annoying ppl or whatever reason you could have but well even in real life you have ppl buying a slice of pumpkin pie and complaining about it tasting like pumpkin so what do we even expect here.

If the group says "CMs+ T4" and has a kp requirement and wants specific classes it is because the ppl making the group have enough of new players who have no idea about mechanics etc and are just doing it the way it works. Naturally a fancy build you had no idea existed can work out well but the emphasis lies in "CAN" so most ppl just do not care to try since it can fail just as much. (well if a friend of mine whom I do know off that the build works joins it is a different story but not pugs ^^) Also most of them are farming it just for the gold etc like I do myself. I rather wait 10 minutes in lfg while doing something different on my second monitor or watching TV than carrying someone failing mechanics or doing not enough (I do not care about benchmark dps myself but if the weaver has a hard dps race against the chrono well I am not even going to discuss it) dps. Well even here we have ppl faking kp with chatlinks but you sometimes think well lets just try him even tough he faked if he does good fine if not we can kick either way and also it cuts the waiting time. Here we also have the famous ppl leaving after either of the CMs or whenever but this is a different problem.

If a group only flags "T4 Daily" you can expect a healthy mix of either saying nothing, having a "T4 Daily Meta only" feel, a "chill run" feel or a "CM" run feel since the LFG did not specify anything.

I may have been a bit long winded but well it is just to show my point that in my opinion a longer LFG text restricts the kind of player that joins a group but if you only have a bland "T4 daily" everything can swarm in from elitist to noob. So it honestly is less of a raid elitism happening in fractals but more of a you get what you are looking for kinda situation.As if in you a LFG without any extra mentions it is a lucky draw with your 4 members and it can go from nice to "I so hate that one guy".A lot of ppl do not care about how they behave online since "why should I care not like anyone can do anything either way as long as I do not overstep my bounds" and a lot of ppl find enjoyment in pissing others off when they can do nothing against it.

So there are 2 options one can picka) Deal with the group you get from a bland "T4 daily" LFG as in go along with the elite crying one, ignore him or kick him and move on.b) Make a longer LFG text that sorts out ppl or join a group with the requirements you like.

In the Internet the moment you show any kind of reaction to a troll (or in our case someone crying about skills classes or dps in a bland "T4 daily" group) as in answering or starting a discussion or calling him out on his mistake you lose.

While all of the groups I mentioned can have exceptions most of them won't. You naturally can get a super skilled person to carry the whole group all the way without any kind of dissatisfied voice of said person. You can also get the exact opposite.

tl;dr : Join a group with specific requirement even if it is "chill run" and resolutely boot anyone complaining about said requirement and never ever start to discuss the content of said requirement since the moment you do you lose.

[Vinceman.4572]

Happened at the same rate before HoT.

Thing on Siax is: The more dps the easier. Worse dps than "ok'ish" results in high pressure for most of the dps classes and they don't stand a chance to survive that long even with druid and chrono. So yeah, if you phase Siax fast it's way more relaxing. I can totally understand pointing the fingers on low dps peeps. Since DH isn't very good any longer I'm still managing to do enough dps to not getting into trouble with my groups. The player you describe here must be a terrible part of the team.Same goes for Ensolyss, the less dps the more mechanics you have to play. If you also have no vigor it'll become a pain in the xxx for glass cannons and the possibility for errors and chain reactions are highly increased, especially before the 2nd cap phase. (Btw. if the team can't even manage the first they are all unskilled players). I also expect a low dps players to be good on mechanics then so he should be able to finish the cap phase.

Last but not least I don't know what groups you are playing with. I barely have someone going tilt mode or blaming others in CMs. People in my runs (100 KP+) are rather focused to get it done and they usually don't care about some dps differences between players. On the other hand if it is absolutely obvious that a player cannot carry his weight he will be called out to perform better or kicked. These are the rules and that's why I run high kp groups. I won't set any foot into beginner groups unless I want to teach friends or gildies because I have been in a lot of them and they definitely are not funny if you are able to bring bosses down properly.

So, as I said: Declare your lfg right and don't use "T4 dailies" just to have an excuse that there are so many elitist players.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

[Rodrick.1942]

@Talindra.4958 said:I recommend u guys to turn DPs meter off in fractal and enjoy the run lol ??You see fractal daily reset daily.. if everyday you have to get angry with the run then you better don't do it.. bad for health :p turn that dps meter off if you can't prevent urself from nosing how other play lol .. Try some meditation... Find ur inner peace.. amen

I cant agree with you more.. But im afraid if we turn off dps meter , some of us might just quit gw2.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

• T4s are not difficult content.
• Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
• In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
• It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

5. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

I don't understand where you're finding all of this difficulty in fractals. Each day I quite seriously create "T4 Dailies" with no other listed requirement, and then I complete the dailies within 30 to 40 minutes without ever having a single fail or need to boot someone from a party. Sometimes with the right party, we can clear in 25 minutes'ish. Then I do a separate LFG for CMs "CMs Pots & Food", I take in every player regardless of team comp and begin play. If a player is struggling I take the time to teach them the fractal and 9/10 times we succeed after a simple 60s explanation of the CM. The only time I ever have to boot players is the truly rare occurrence that someone joins a T4 CM who is inexperienced with a completely inadequate build like you mentioned before, some cleric/soldier bunker, who is somehow still dying during the fractal. If the party can't pull his weight, then we have to boot, but usually people just let these guys tag along and we finish the fractal anyway, not a big deal.

I just don't understand where player are finding such difficulty in fractals where, if they don't put together perfect raid subgroup metas, they wipe over and over and can't succeed. Like... most of the T4 content is solo'able, outside of things like "stand on 2 panels while 1 person gets on mechanism".

Yeah, i mean, there have been situations where kicks were afforded but that's like a 10% deal probably.It's a statement of how much you slack if one gets constantly kicked.

But i don't agree with your last paragraph. Sure most are soloed, but the speed at which you solo a Fractal, or the speed at which people will do a fractal while carrying one or more poor players, is very different than the speed you'll do it with a good group. And a lot of people simply don't have that time to afford to other people slacking off..

Also, i doubt anyone will tell you you need a raid sub-group for Fractals, especially if they're really elitists, since Raids will usually put some emphasis on Condi damage, for Fractals, usually really meta elitist CM speed runner groups will ask for power builds almost exclusively.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

I'm as Elitist as the next guy, and i never have or seen someone comment when a person adjusts their build for a fractal, me personally, i'll switch around one or two utilities for a lot of fractals. For example if i'm playing Mesmer in Aeitherblade, i'll usually slot in blink and portal for the traps section since it allows you to skip most of it, i'll use portal a lot for swamp. I usually have Feedback equipped on the Ice Elemental in Snowblind, etc.

On Guardian i'll usually take Hallowed Ground for Ensolyss' last section to avoid getting ping-ponged around by the Krait, will also sometimes slot in "stand your ground" for the Aetherblade boss to avoid people getting pulled through the lasers, etc.

If anything it's more likely that people will question why others aren't adapting their utilities to the encounter than criticize them for doing so. Unless of course one's doing really dumb swaps that have no use for that fractal, but that's not questioning breaking the meta, just the dumb swaps.In fact, often meta guides will include a list of skills that should be used per class to adapt to each encounter.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

The stupid meta idea(with its fancy benchmarks) has to die both in t4 and raids so all can play how they want no matter performance . For how others play is not anyone else bussnies

[Feanor.2358]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

The stupid meta idea(with its fancy benchmarks) has to die both in t4 and raids so all can play how they want no matter performance . For how others play is not anyone else bussnies

It won't die. Precisely because how others play is not anyone else's business. So when I want a competent party that doesn't result in a 2 hour clown fiesta instead of a decent fractal clear, that's my decision and you have no say in it.

[Blocki.4931]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

• T4s are not difficult content.
• Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
• In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
• It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

Your damage is always going to be worse with a bad stat combination, you can't argue against that lol Soldier is 2 tank 1 damage stats compared to having 3 damage stats, that's trolling when you're supposed to deal damage and there is no way around it.

Doesn't mean you're not allowed to play it, but don't call your damage good if your only way of not getting kicked out of groups is hiding the damage you deal lmao

[Jasonbdj.4021]

People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!

But we all know the meta religion system and the ppl who follow it will never change sadly.

[Feanor.2358]

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!

But we all know the meta religion system and the ppl who follow it will never change sadly.

That's only true if you're comparing two bad performances. Meta exists for a reason, and the reason is that it is optimal. A good performance on a meta build will always outperform the non-meta one.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!On a high skill level, meta builds will always outperform anything else. On lower levels, that may no longer be the case, but it will still take a thorough understanding of the class and a build that's probably not too far away from the meta builds if you want a decent performance.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!On a high skill level, meta builds will always outperform anything else. On lower levels, that may no longer be the case, but it will still take a thorough understanding of the class and a build that's probably not too far away from the meta builds if you want a decent performance.

'decent' is relative. if you are enjoying a casual race you don't need a F1 car to have fun, in fact its uncomfortable.

[Jasonbdj.4021]

Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

[Feanor.2358]

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

That's technically true, but in reality a sensible and well played off-meta build will likely be accepted more often than not. The things that will be straight out kicked are those that are straight out bad. And no, you can't be reasonably efficient on a bad build. You have every right to not trust me and figure that on your own, but I have every right to not be a part of that process.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

• T4s are not difficult content.
• Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
• In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
• It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

Your damage is always going to be worse with a bad stat combination, you can't argue against that lol Soldier is 2 tank 1 damage stats compared to having 3 damage stats, that's trolling when you're supposed to deal damage and there is no way around it.

Doesn't mean you're not allowed to play it, but don't call your damage good if your only way of not getting kicked out of groups is hiding the damage you deal lmao

You guys keep referencing off-meta builds as always being: "soldier's" "cleric's", that's an extreme embellishment concerning the discussion in this thread. When we are referencing off-meta builds, we are talking still running DPS gear of course, but maybe using a different weapon or slight variation in traits/utilities from what is listed on a site. No one is saying "it's ok to run cleric's warrior in T4 fractals".

[Jasonbdj.4021]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

That's technically true, but in reality a sensible and well played off-meta build will likely be accepted more often than not. The things that will be straight out kicked are those that are straight out bad. And no, you can't be reasonably efficient on a bad build. You have every right to not trust me and figure that on your own, but I have every right to not be a part of that process.

I do understand your view, extremely useless bad builds do exist, reason why raids is so stricted as its quite easily access by newbies with silly builds. But fractals at T4 people should have the experience to know what is useless and whats not.

Been in non-meta groups which have been smoother and faster runs than the meta groups lol.

I see both bad and good points from both sides (do fractals daily and done some raids) but I dont agree on meta restrictions in T4 fractals (ppl can be carried in raids and farm LI in escort so sadly i do agree on meta restrictions there).

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You guys keep referencing off-meta builds as always being: "soldier's" "cleric's", that's an extreme embellishment concerning the discussion in this thread. When we are referencing off-meta builds, we are talking still running DPS gear of course, but maybe using a different weapon or slight variation in traits/utilities from what is listed on a site. No one is saying "it's ok to run cleric's warrior in T4 fractals".So we're talking about stuff like no-kit sword holo vs the rifle meta build, for example.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You guys keep referencing off-meta builds as always being: "soldier's" "cleric's", that's an extreme embellishment concerning the discussion in this thread. When we are referencing off-meta builds, we are talking still running DPS gear of course, but maybe using a different weapon or slight variation in traits/utilities from what is listed on a site. No one is saying "it's ok to run cleric's warrior in T4 fractals".

Swapping an utility skill or even a trait is not off-meta.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vinceman.4572 Oh really? At what exact point does something become off meta?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"Jasonbdj.4021" said:I do understand your view, extremely useless bad builds do exist, reason why raids is so stricted as its quite easily access by newbies with silly builds. But fractals at T4 people should have the experience to know what is useless and whats not.People should have that experience, but reality clearly indicates that's not the case. In the most extreme cases (happening every now and then), I battle presumed dps players with my magi/harrier/minstrel heal druid. Those cases do not happen too often, but in T4 pugs with no special requirements, it's standard that one or two "dps" will do something like 3-4k in situations where a good player hits 10-15k.

[Jasonbdj.4021]

People running meta can also achieve low dps, roughly the same chance of a bad run as in off-meta group.

The way i see -

Meta - high skill - enjoyment = flawless

Off meta but reasonable - high skill - enjoyment = great but are kicked anyways due to not following meta religion.

Meta - low skill - bored and careless = poor performance/dead weight to the group, usually can be out-performed by above. Half of ppl are at this level on board on the easy train.

Off meta - low skill - bored and careless = the worst but are quite rare in T4.

Fractal really isnt that hard with no long boss fights as raids.

[Feanor.2358]

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Jasonbdj.4021 said:Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

That's technically true, but in reality a sensible and well played off-meta build will likely be accepted more often than not. The things that will be straight out kicked are those that are straight out bad. And no, you can't be reasonably efficient on a bad build. You have every right to not trust me and figure that on your own, but I have every right to not be a part of that process.

I do understand your view, extremely useless bad builds do exist, reason why raids is so stricted as its quite easily access by newbies with silly builds. But fractals at T4 people should have the experience to know what is useless and whats not.

Been in non-meta groups which have been smoother and faster runs than the meta groups lol.

I see both bad and good points from both sides (do fractals daily and done some raids) but I dont agree on meta restrictions in T4 fractals (ppl can be carried in raids and farm LI in escort so sadly i do agree on meta restrictions there).

Again, it is technically true that once in a blue moon you can find an off-meta group which runs smoother than some meta groups. But on average? Meta groups perform far, far better. This doesn't make that big of a difference on T4. Usually. But I want to clear the CMs as well. And there the differences become pretty important. So there. I don't mind getting an unconventional dps. Or a different healer, for that matter. But I'll insist on the chrono. Others will have different tolerance toward straying off meta. And it is their own choice.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Vinceman.4572 Oh really? At what exact point does something become off meta?

In theory if you swap something out which leads no longer to the best possible result. However, since we have so many “meta-builds“ right now, what skills you should bring in a meta-group highly depends on the classes and builds in your group and the encounter.

Though i find this discussion rather pointless, instead of pointing fingers at those which rather enjoy metagroups, the main problem is once again that people (and yeah also metaplayers, its a commen sickness in this game) are to lazy/stupid to make proper lfgs or read them, and that fractalgroups also need a partyleaderfunction.

Nobody has the right to say how someone has to play( for meta, semimeta, off-meta or whatever someone calls his style^^). But also noone has the right to say who i have to play with. If i rather enjoy a full meta group and i join/create such a group (and in theory kick all non-meta builds), well then people have to accept it. Such as i have to accept that a t4 chilled run group is not a meta group and that i shouldbe kicked if i start flaming in there.

Are there good off-meta builds? Of course, many even were once meta before they got nerfed or further developed. I dont even have a problem with them in my meta-group, as long as i have a support-chrono in the group and dps-players dont fight with the chrono about their dps-position (~4k).

You will always have black sheeps though, but just as there are “toxic elitistic metaplayers“, there are also “toxic stubborn casuals“ who join our proper listed lfg which was looking for a support chrono, he joins in as a gs wielding core mesmer with no boons or dps at all (we started the frac instead of waiting until we were full) and kicked him after the first boss where we carried him through after he ignored our request that he should pls play what we were looking for or leave, resulting in multiple whispers to us what he thinks about us.