No resources that actually teach you how to fight and live. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

No resources that actually teach you how to fight and live.

It occurred to me after years of playing this game that I can only reliably play one class and build with out dying and rage quitting on any content past Season 2. There are not enough dodges, and not enough cds to take the punishment you face when a swarm of enemies gets in your face doing their special attacks in staggered intervals unless you get lucky and kill them faster than they can kill you (that seems like bad game play to me where in a game like ESO I have the resources to block all attacks I need to block, and interrupt all attacks I need to interrupt).

For example if I'm playing Reaper no problems there I basically win in attrition fights anyway 85 to 90 percent of the time.

Guardian I don't have enough blocks and blinds when I have more than 2 enemies trying to kill me (sometimes 2 will even kill me off).

Every other class might as well not even exist for me, Warrior and Revenant make me want to punch holes through my office wall, Mesmer feels like a probability gambling game where sometimes you win and other times you die terribly on Chronomancer following a rotation from Snowcrows.

Maybe it's because I play in the Open World as a solo player that only plays with others when they're around but I just find it hard to believe that after 5 years I'd still be this bad at GW2 playing anything other than a Reaper.

So I'm looking for resources, I just watched a few combat basics videos on YouTube which at this point are not what I'm looking for since that's like being taught the difference between primary and secondary colors, I know what buffs are, I know what blinds are, I know how stability works, I understand blocks, I can't aim a dodge to save my life literally I'll sometimes dodge face first into an enemy. (hell as a Dragon Knight in ESO I don't even bother dodging I just block and interrupt).

“The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

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Comments

  • Zeefa.3915Zeefa.3915 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm I have been able to solo play everything story related on my ranger/soulbeast, maybe a bit tough at points, but very much doable.
    I have also solo played everything up to the point LS3 episode... something... on my thief/daredevil, the points where I struggle vary a bit from when playing ranger, but so far its indeed doable.
    It would surprise me very much if I was unable to do the same on my necro, ele or engi. Although the struggles may be different and stuff.

    Non of them run meta builds... its whatever I feel like wether it is considered the most efficient or not. And honestly it makes sense to me that one might struggle more with classes/builds one is less familiar with.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know...try asking for advice in the Profession sub-forums for each Profession?
    I don't seem to have that problem on Professions that I play, more or less, regularly. I do fail miserably on Professions I rarely ever play, of course.

    Good luck.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Zeefa.3915 said:
    Hmm I have been able to solo play everything story related on my ranger/soulbeast, maybe a bit tough at points, but very much doable.
    I have also solo played everything up to the point LS3 episode... something... on my thief/daredevil, the points where I struggle vary a bit from when playing ranger, but so far its indeed doable.
    It would surprise me very much if I was unable to do the same on my necro, ele or engi. Although the struggles may be different and stuff.

    Non of them run meta builds... its whatever I feel like wether it is considered the most efficient or not. And honestly it makes sense to me that one might struggle more with classes/builds one is less familiar with.

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I don't know...try asking for advice in the Profession sub-forums for each Profession?
    I don't seem to have that problem on Professions that I play, more or less, regularly. I do fail miserably on Professions I rarely ever play, of course.

    Good luck.

    It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

    If it all breaks down to specific classes with completely unique mechanics then I can see why no one can balance properly.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dunno. Try the Wiki? The Online Manual? The Extended Online Manual?

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I dunno. Try the Wiki? The Online Manual? The Extended Online Manual?

    This is the 21st century I was looking for a GW2 partner that has actual guides and not videos like 'This is my guide to playing a (fill in the blank)' which is nothing more than a montage of some one playing a class in a skimpy outfit while blaring bad Metal or Techno music.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Honestly I think a lot of it comes down to practice. The professions I find easiest to play are the ones I've spent the most time playing. If you want to learn to play a new profession I think the best way is just to make a character of that profession and level them up by playing naturally - not grinding or power levelling, no Tomes of Knowledge or scrolls and no/limited XP boosts. Experiment as you're going along - when you unlock a new skill or trait equip it for a while and see what you can do with it and how it affects your character. Same when you get a new weapon or get equipment with 'less desirable' stat combinations. Even if it seems like something you won't want to use try it and find out, you can always swap back later.

    But also you need to remember that not all professions are the same, otherwise there would be no point in having more than 1. For example a guardian probably can't block or blind as much as a reaper (necromancer is the profession I've played least so I'm not that familiar with them), but they have a lot more self-heals, boons and condition removal skills, and several teleport/leap skills. So instead of blocking the attacks they absorb or remove the damage or move out of the way (which could be dodging or teleporting).

    (Also ESO is fairly similar in that respect. I assume since you said you have enough resources to block, interrupt or dodge all the attacks you need to that you play a stamina based character, probably with a shield. Try playing a magicka based one, especially a warden or nightblade and let me know how you do using the same tactics. I once spent a month almost exclusively playing my DK tank then switched back to my nightblade and I was dying to everything until I remembered I had to move out the way instead of letting them hit me and blocking it.)

    Alright, so if I typically play tanks then I guess Reaper and Dragon Hunter might be the only thing that works for me I assume.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @Zeefa.3915 said:
    Hmm I have been able to solo play everything story related on my ranger/soulbeast, maybe a bit tough at points, but very much doable.
    I have also solo played everything up to the point LS3 episode... something... on my thief/daredevil, the points where I struggle vary a bit from when playing ranger, but so far its indeed doable.
    It would surprise me very much if I was unable to do the same on my necro, ele or engi. Although the struggles may be different and stuff.

    Non of them run meta builds... its whatever I feel like wether it is considered the most efficient or not. And honestly it makes sense to me that one might struggle more with classes/builds one is less familiar with.

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I don't know...try asking for advice in the Profession sub-forums for each Profession?
    I don't seem to have that problem on Professions that I play, more or less, regularly. I do fail miserably on Professions I rarely ever play, of course.

    Good luck.

    It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

    If it all breaks down to specific classes with completely unique mechanics then I can see why no one can balance properly.

    That's correct. Dodge does two things: it physically moves you in the direction you dodge (faster than normal running speed), but it also gives you a second of invulnerability. Either one of these things will stop an attack hitting you, but which one is most useful depends on what you're dodging. For example if an enemy is dropping an AoE under you then moving out the way is the most important thing, because once you're outside the range it can't affect you. But if it's a quick acting AoE, one that starts doing damage as soon as the circle appears, then there may not be time to move out the way. But that second of invulnerability mean that even if you're still in the circle it won't hurt you. (You can tell if the attack was stopped this way because white text comes up saying 'evaded'.)

    And yes, this applies to all incoming attacks. As long as they hit during the dodge animation you'll evade them.

    It's also worth remembering that you can combine dodging with normal movement. If an AoE circle appears but doesn't immediately do damage you can start moving towards the edge and only dodge when the damage starts (or just before ideally, but that requires knowing the boss and how long their attack takes to hit, I don't think there's a clear timer). Or for a fast AoE dodge right away and then run the rest of the way out the circle - you'll take some damage but not as much.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "In this town, we call home, everyone hail to the pumpkin song! In this town, don't we love it now? Everyone's waiting for the next surprise!"

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.
    But primarily, draw fewer enemies

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.
    But primarily, draw fewer enemies

    I was under the impression that groups of mobs were tied together other than the obvious culprits like Pocket Raptors, so say I'm on a Guardian if I hit one with a scepter then only that enemy will come at me?

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • juhani.5361juhani.5361 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    literally I'll sometimes dodge face first into an enemy.

    Just curious-- do you have melee assist turned on? If you dodge head-on into the enemy, that function makes sure you stop right in its face. Turn it off, you phase through the enemy instead. I've found that alone makes a huge difference in my survivability in higher level maps. Because, frankly, I stink at dodging. My direction is whatever key I'm double-tapping at the moment-- usually forward ;)

    I know you're looking for real solutions, so this probably isn't what you're looking for. Apologies. It's made a huge difference for me, though.

    My other "success" tip is taking a look at those meta guides, matching whatever build and gear they suggest as best you can, then giving it a test in low-stress, easy areas until you can get the intuitive feel for what everything does.

    Guardian was actually easy for me once I got past level 11. Before that, it's probably one of the hardest classes I've tried to play. Keep aegis up, and whatever sigil skill it is that keeps your health regenerating, and you'll be almost untouchable. Firebrand takes its base survivability down several notches.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.
    But primarily, draw fewer enemies

    I was under the impression that groups of mobs were tied together other than the obvious culprits like Pocket Raptors, so say I'm on a Guardian if I hit one with a scepter then only that enemy will come at me?

    Some are (like your pocket raptors), some aren't. Always depends on the mobs.

    As to your first post, in this game quite a lot depends on knowledge of your class. Know how to use its tools and you'll breeze through most stuff in no time. If you don't know, it's quite a bit harder, though blasting away every open world mob below elites shouldn't be an issue with any class if you have a proper build. The same applies to packs of these mobs.

    Praise delta!

  • sitarskee.5738sitarskee.5738 Member ✭✭✭

    I started out with GW2 as a thief - never had any problem with OW, PS and LWS. Then I repeated it with Mesmer, Warrior and Elementalist and almost done with Guardian. Still hadn't occured any problems. You learn how to play by playing and learning from your mistakes. Learn your class skills, time your dodges, remember to switch weapons to maximize damage output. You can try building yourself to have more survivability but IMO it's the best to go full berserk and just kill your enemies before they kill you.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I spend a LOT of time in the north end of Wayfarer Foothills (outside of Crossroads Haven) testing builds. There is a wide variety of enemies with different attacks (AoE, melee, ranged, etc and even a champion from time to time) that usually won't gang up on me in large numbers. At higher levels, nothing up there should be able to outright kill me. This gives me the opportunity to observe different attacks and to tinker with different builds, traits and rotations without worrying about dying. And even if I'm downed, there is a repair NPC in the Haven nearby so I don't have to go far to get back to tinkering.

    You might try something like this to practice with a class/profession that you wouldn't otherwise try?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also, I agree with the posted who mentioned scrolling through the profession sub-fora. Most of what I've read there pertains to PvP or WvW, but it helps to give me ideas on how others perceive class mechanics work. I've taken suggestions from there, tried them out and then modified the builds to my own tastes/preferences for owPvE.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just because.......

    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    "Help! I need saving"
    How do I save you?
    "Run up and tap F, then shake controller to free me"

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.
    But primarily, draw fewer enemies

    I was under the impression that groups of mobs were tied together other than the obvious culprits like Pocket Raptors, so say I'm on a Guardian if I hit one with a scepter then only that enemy will come at me?

    Pocket Raptors demand AoE, Rolling Devils demand CC, Mordrem Snipers demand moving to the side; each of these HoT mobs, and to a fair degree the mobs in all content thereafter, have their own unique style, and appropriate responses that make them relatively easy to deal with.

    The two things that made a big difference to me:

    First one was learning that. Once I figured out how the enemies work -- and many of them use skills identical to players -- I was much better able to counter them. Pocket Raptors used to make my cry, and typically die, but once I figured out the trick, bam, no longer a concern.

    The second one was to learn to save abilities for when they were needed. If there was a risk that those pesky raptors were gonna get involved, make sure I retain some AoE damage, or at least an AoE cripple, to let me avoid their burst damage.

    Beyond that, you might find it helpful to look at the WvW builds on metabattle. Those focus more on survivability than the other builds, and that can be a big help. You are right, though: those mobs are much harder than the core ones, and it definitely is a steep learning curve.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This game is not good for tank style play, IMO. The first thing you should do is to play a really fragile profession to become accustomed to the constant need of movement, active defense, dodging and kiting. Going in and out of the attack area is a must for many professions, and is what makes the game fun for me at least.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    This game is not good for tank style play, IMO. The first thing you should do is to play a really fragile profession to become accustomed to the constant need of movement, active defense, dodging and kiting. Going in and out of the attack area is a must for many professions, and is what makes the game fun for me at least.

    This. Once you play a glassy mobile class that forces you to move to survive, playing a more durable class is easy mode (and might screw up your sense of play on your glassy characters).

  • Cregath.7628Cregath.7628 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834

    Step 1 for surviving the Open World: Forget the Meta builds!
    They are aimed at a party of 10 in most cases for raids where someone else does the work for YOUR survival. However, they are a good starting point. If you take one of those builds and make some changes to it: like adding Vitality and Healing Power for Guardian and the likes, as well as swap out several Utility skills, you can solo every non-group (and some group) content with any of the professions you choose. Additionally, dodging is a HUGE part of surviving. Spend some time mastering it. You don't even need to aim it, because most attacks can't hit you while dodging even if you are inside their area.
    Depending on individual skill some can survive with any kind of build, but even they will find themselves using some more defensive utility skills.

    Step 2 is knowing the enemies. When will they do what? Why do they do that? What is that ability actually doing?
    Stuff like this. They can be figured out by experimenting and seeing it for yourself. For example, if you have a lot of Condition removal/transfer, then you don't really need to care about the big red circle that stacks burning on you, because you can remove that with ease. If your profession can produce a lot of Aegis then you should avoid getting hit by abilities that do little damage or better yet, keep your Aegis for a big spell that you won't be able to avoid anyways. For example if a monster does one big AoE attack and then just normal hits, then ignore the hits and keep fighting, then when he does the big bad thing, then just put on an Aegis and keep fighting, don't even bother dodging in that case.

    A huge portion of the Open World content is based around adapting (as well as certain other parts of the game) and knowing what you and the enemy is capable of. Just getting a build from the internet, then going into a fight and being surprised that you die isn't gonna cut it sadly. :(
    This is basically the only revelation you need. Just because something looks good on paper, that is still just something on paper. If you are bad with dodging and can't improve at all, then build for something that doesn't require you to do it often.
    Yeah something like that.
    I don't think what you are looking for exists sadly.
    If you really want a guide, then I'd recommend checking out Metabattle for this rather than Snowcrows. They have an Open World section for each class. Didn't try those builds myself, but you can give it a go.

    Praise Joko!

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

    Yet if you dwell on the question for more then 2 seconds, not only is the OP wrong there not being resources, but action games are more intuitive, with a fair share of deductive reasoning, because there are only so many things you can teach a person when the game play is driven by analytical response. The problem the OP has is one of practice, and how explain the myriad of things to process in a step by step "rotation"?.

    Secondly, you can tell weaved throughout the post, his desire is to make the game adapt to how he does things, rather then the other way around. "I want to block and interrupt everything like a Tank" when the game itself isn't designed around that. He understands the concept of dodging, but doesn't like, and avoids trying to use it..... but its so fundamental to the combat, you can't simply not use it and expect do well.

    No amount of explaining the game mechanics he needs will help, because he's already aware of them, and actively wants to dismiss them. So only has 2 choices..... learn to use the abilities hes already aware of, or overcompensate with defensive stats, and suffer the consequences of doing so. I can't explain that concept any harder then anyone else here has thus far.

  • jbrother.1340jbrother.1340 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

    You know I tend to agree however it is obvious that either the OP does not have the desire or the patience to simply practice. Regardless of what was said either they have the ability to practice and get better or they practice and don't get better in which case even attempting another class would be futile.

    I tend to believe that this OP will get better with practice if they simply play more with purpose and some back reading about the class and style before, then go practice starting in simple ways that do not crush their spirits.

    Go check out all the skills on a training dummy but seriously if you want something done right do it yourself don't expect others to do it and limit your need to have someone else teach you by teaching yourself to learn in new ways.

    Start a lvl 1 character and run the story from start to finish and see how you are doing at the end maybe?

  • Maikimaik.1974Maikimaik.1974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    The resources are there, if you don't want to use them that's fine, but you shouldn't be complaining about it then. Most things can be done in this game with a little bit of practice. If you don't know which tactic you should use when fighting a specific enemy, you have two options: Either look that enemy up and learn how to fight it with the help of the internet or just fight that enemy over and over again until you understand how to defeat it. The latter way works just as well as the former, you just need more patience.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jbrother.1340 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

    You know I tend to agree however it is obvious that either the OP does not have the desire or the patience to simply practice. Regardless of what was said either they have the ability to practice and get better or they practice and don't get better in which case even attempting another class would be futile.

    I tend to believe that this OP will get better with practice if they simply play more with purpose and some back reading about the class and style before, then go practice starting in simple ways that do not crush their spirits.

    Go check out all the skills on a training dummy but seriously if you want something done right do it yourself don't expect others to do it and limit your need to have someone else teach you by teaching yourself to learn in new ways.

    Start a lvl 1 character and run the story from start to finish and see how you are doing at the end maybe?

    The issue with starting a lvl 1 character and running all the way through the story is that the mobs in story instances, including arah are very very weak compared to regular mobs, so that i dont think is a good way to learn.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Donutdude.9582Donutdude.9582 Member ✭✭✭

    My recommendation would be to explore every single skill option for each class.

    Part of the skill element to any game is to learn the class and/or mechanics in order to excel. For me, I found this was best accomplished through experimentation.

    To lend my thoughts to the Guardian class, I would high recommend looking at the following:

    • Shouts: These are great for granting defensive boons. "Hold the Line" grants Protection, which is gives you 33% damage reduction for a time.
    • Shield and Focus skills: These two off-hand weapons have some powerful defensive skills that are worth looking over.
    • Traits: These will be some of your main sources of survivability. Honor, Valor and Virtues are fantastic for defensive traits.
    • Defensive stats: Invest into some toughness and vitality for increased armour and hit point to survive those tough encounters.

    If you need more advice for the Guardian class, feel free to drop me a private message or whisper in-game.

    Good luck!

    My Wiki Profile
    Honorary Seraph Captain
    Guardian Expert

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jbrother.1340 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

    You know I tend to agree however it is obvious that either the OP does not have the desire or the patience to simply practice. Regardless of what was said either they have the ability to practice and get better or they practice and don't get better in which case even attempting another class would be futile.

    I understand the frustration that you, and @starlinvf.1358, feel about that. In other contexts, people who do similar things have me ready to drive my head through a table, and I have an unfortunate history of similarly getting frustrated, and regrettably mean, if they insist on continuing to declare that they must be right, regardless of all evidence.

    I'm just as wrong when I let that frustration turn into unhelpful comments in forums, and I'm working hard to improve on that front. The same is true here: the best way to deal with that foolishness for everyone is that you, I, and everyone else who is that frustrated just steps away. You can't help people who don't want help, and what you describe certainly fits into "don't [really] want help" from my perspective.

    Like, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. I'm definitely not saying your frustration is wrong, or misplaced, or imaginary. I'm also not saying we should humor someone behaving as you describe.

    I'm just saying we shouldn't let that frustration get the better of us, and instead, we should try and live up to our best selves: swear about it in the real world, and walk away without putting it into the forums.

    (As a bonus, enough times I got suckered into long arguments that just kept getting more frustrating, because the other party just ignored every correct, or worse, absorbed them, and regurgitated them as if it was their original idea ... just completely wrong on every front. Life got better when I stopped letting them waste my time. You may find the same.)

  • To quote the Monster Hunter community: "Don't get hit. Hit them until they die"

    Infinite variations of that phrase are how you git gud. Really that's all there is to it. Positioning is important, dodging or avoiding enemy attacks is important, learning how to do good DPS is important, and knowing how to prioritize targets is important. Most combat in this game is a puzzle, with multiple solutions. Once you figure out the trick for each enemy, then combat becomes a piece of cake.

    I run around the overworld in full glass cannon gear on every class except for warrior and ranger, and I have no problems. Probably the biggest secret to my success is good DPS. There are a lot of enemies that are rendered harmless just by killing them faster than they can get their attack off. After that, circle strafing renders most attacks useless.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OP is correct ... there is a massive jump from scrub level play in core world to HoT. It's one of the failings of the game and at this point, probably not much can be done about it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suggest WvW roaming builds for open world use. These builds typically pack more condi cleanse, stun breaks, resets, and general survival tools than your typical PvE meta builds. There are also quite a few guides on youtube on the usage of various roaming builds. Not everything will carry over from one game mode to the other ofc, but if you can hold your own roaming, you should be just fine out in the world.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

    This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

    Yet if you dwell on the question for more then 2 seconds, not only is the OP wrong there not being resources, but action games are more intuitive, with a fair share of deductive reasoning, because there are only so many things you can teach a person when the game play is driven by analytical response. The problem the OP has is one of practice, and how explain the myriad of things to process in a step by step "rotation"?.

    Secondly, you can tell weaved throughout the post, his desire is to make the game adapt to how he does things, rather then the other way around. "I want to block and interrupt everything like a Tank" when the game itself isn't designed around that. He understands the concept of dodging, but doesn't like, and avoids trying to use it..... but its so fundamental to the combat, you can't simply not use it and expect do well.

    No amount of explaining the game mechanics he needs will help, because he's already aware of them, and actively wants to dismiss them. So only has 2 choices..... learn to use the abilities hes already aware of, or overcompensate with defensive stats, and suffer the consequences of doing so. I can't explain that concept any harder then anyone else here has thus far.

    I actually use my dodge when ever it's available I just suck at going where I want to go, I have it hot keyed to Mouse 4 button, I'm not that good at moving out of things unless I have a long tell like they have in ESO, unfortunately I find by the time I notice something to move out of I'm already half way dead then after moving something else finishes me off unless I'm playing a Reaper. Thankfully I've found a GS Guardian has a fair amount of defense built right into it's abilities such as its blind, whirl finisher that I believe has reflect on it, it's retaliation symbol, I think standing in the middle of that Blade Trap also provides a Whirl finisher while blinding the enemies if you use F1, I don't bother with the other F keys because it seems it's better to get your Christmas Aegis, and trickle healing. Other Utility choices throw me off though, I know there are talents that make some utilities provide Retaliation which I like because it provides the same feel as a Diablo 3 Thorns build, I suppose Shelter would be good because it provides an extra block and it seems throwing retreat in there for a block would be a waste, I found using Hammer for my second Weapon was good for longer Boss fights with the 33% protection and CC for Break Bars.

    I suppose the Dragon Maw Elite tank is better for drawing in some spread out mobs, but then supposedly GS5 does that as well, but I thought you were not supposed to pull them to leave burning on the mobs.

    That's just it though it feels like I know enough to get my self in trouble as the saying goes.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Donutdude.9582 said:
    My recommendation would be to explore every single skill option for each class.

    Part of the skill element to any game is to learn the class and/or mechanics in order to excel. For me, I found this was best accomplished through experimentation.

    To lend my thoughts to the Guardian class, I would high recommend looking at the following:

    • Shouts: These are great for granting defensive boons. "Hold the Line" grants Protection, which is gives you 33% damage reduction for a time.
    • Shield and Focus skills: These two off-hand weapons have some powerful defensive skills that are worth looking over.
    • Traits: These will be some of your main sources of survivability. Honor, Valor and Virtues are fantastic for defensive traits.
    • Defensive stats: Invest into some toughness and vitality for increased armour and hit point to survive those tough encounters.

    If you need more advice for the Guardian class, feel free to drop me a private message or whisper in-game.

    Good luck!

    I think the armor on my Guardian is Knights atm with zerker Trinkets and weapons, I'll try the Shouts, I was trying to build utilities toward Retaliation before.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Ashabhi.1365Ashabhi.1365 Member ✭✭✭

    Something that may or may not help as well:

    If you want to learn a profession, don't start at 80. Make a new character, go through the leveling process, and do the stories, and yes, the side quests. Sounds boring, eh? That may be true, but it's the best way to learn a profession. Everything you do in leveling up to 80 is meant to teach you how to use your character. Many times you'll outlevel the zone you're in before you're through with everything.

    Look, it's the easiest thing in the world to use that level boost ticket, but then when you're insta-80 and you want to ragequit because you can't generate those big numbers like (insert name) can, or you don't have the survivability that a website said you would have, it's just not worth it. I've done it both ways, and from my point of view, leveling from scratch is a much better way of learning a profession.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    I suggest WvW roaming builds for open world use. These builds typically pack more condi cleanse, stun breaks, resets, and general survival tools than your typical PvE meta builds. There are also quite a few guides on youtube on the usage of various roaming builds. Not everything will carry over from one game mode to the other ofc, but if you can hold your own roaming, you should be just fine out in the world.

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.
    But primarily, draw fewer enemies

    I was under the impression that groups of mobs were tied together other than the obvious culprits like Pocket Raptors, so say I'm on a Guardian if I hit one with a scepter then only that enemy will come at me?

    Pocket Raptors demand AoE, Rolling Devils demand CC, Mordrem Snipers demand moving to the side; each of these HoT mobs, and to a fair degree the mobs in all content thereafter, have their own unique style, and appropriate responses that make them relatively easy to deal with.

    The two things that made a big difference to me:

    First one was learning that. Once I figured out how the enemies work -- and many of them use skills identical to players -- I was much better able to counter them. Pocket Raptors used to make my cry, and typically die, but once I figured out the trick, bam, no longer a concern.

    The second one was to learn to save abilities for when they were needed. If there was a risk that those pesky raptors were gonna get involved, make sure I retain some AoE damage, or at least an AoE cripple, to let me avoid their burst damage.

    Beyond that, you might find it helpful to look at the WvW builds on metabattle. Those focus more on survivability than the other builds, and that can be a big help. You are right, though: those mobs are much harder than the core ones, and it definitely is a steep learning curve.

    I'll look into these WVWVW builds, I focus too much on the PVE builds not realizing they only function in the vacuum of an instance.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Steve The Cynic.3217Steve The Cynic.3217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:
    It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

    Most enemies do have basic tells of some sort. There are tracks, circles, and so on that appear on the ground, but there are also things like their animations. Watch the enemies as well as the ground.

    Example: Ettins. Ettins have a knock-down attack that they are fond of. There's no ground-marker tell for it, though. Instead, you must watch for them "winding up" to deliver it, and when you see that, you dodge, run back, interrupt, or invoke stability, as you see fit(1). If you don't watch for it, you'll miss it, and you'll have to eat the knock-down, and that hurts.

    So no, it's not haphazard in any way. It's a mix of profession-specific things and mob-specific things. This mob attacks like this, so you have to invoke that list of defensive techniques, depending on your profession, but the mob always attacks like that, and when it does, it animates like that or puts that marker on the ground. The Ettin always looks like that when it's winding up the knock-down.

    (1) Or other things, depending on your profession. A Spellbreaker with enough Adrenaline might activate Full Counter, while a Daredevil with enough Initiative available might simply Vault behind the Ettin.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To my critics both kind and harsh I should have been clear that I'm looking for Youtube guides to explain how these concepts work to make sure my own understanding is correct or flawed. For example I found great beginner videos that explained what boons were and how to dodge but that's preschool level, breakbars I figured out on my own.

    Everything else though.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    there are a few approaches to playing this game

    play something glassy and force yourself to get good or die. this is a fine approach and seems to be the most popular advice in general
    play something tanky and just don't worry about it. there are plenty of builds that can do a lot of damage without being glass
    play something tanky and use the leeway it offers to practice dodging and such without the severe consequences for failing and downtime between attempts

    I went with option 3, myself, but if you do that you have to take extra care to ensure it doesn't slip into option 2 if your goal is indeed to get good

  • Sinful.2165Sinful.2165 Member ✭✭✭

    What changed MMOs for me was getting a mouse with 12 thumb buttons. That might sound excessive and indeed it was so I down graded to a mouse with “only” 6 thumb buttons.

    In combination with shift and ctrl I could keybind another 12 easy to push buttons on top of the 6.

    This way there is no fumbling on the keyboard. I can dodge using a mouse button exactly when I need to and in the direction I want to go. I have all essential combat functions on the thumb buttons of mouse and so many hot keys left over that I have each mount hot keyed as well.

    I could never go back to gaming with anything short of a good MOBA gaming mouse.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    That's correct. Dodge does two things: it physically moves you in the direction you dodge (faster than normal running speed), but it also gives you a second of invulnerability. Either one of these things will stop an attack hitting you, but which one is most useful depends on what you're dodging. For example if an enemy is dropping an AoE under you then moving out the way is the most important thing, because once you're outside the range it can't affect you. But if it's a quick acting AoE, one that starts doing damage as soon as the circle appears, then there may not be time to move out the way. But that second of invulnerability mean that even if you're still in the circle it won't hurt you. (You can tell if the attack was stopped this way because white text comes up saying 'evaded'.)

    And yes, this applies to all incoming attacks. As long as they hit during the dodge animation you'll evade them.

    That's not entirely true. Dodge gives you evade frames, which is enough in almost every case, but you can still be hit by some skills (like shocking aura or guardian's pulls) or objects.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    But also you need to remember that not all professions are the same, otherwise there would be no point in having more than 1. For example a guardian probably can't block or blind as much as a reaper (necromancer is the profession I've played least so I'm not that familiar with them), but they have a lot more self-heals, boons and condition removal skills, and several teleport/leap skills. So instead of blocking the attacks they absorb or remove the damage or move out of the way (which could be dodging or teleporting).

    WUT?! @[email protected]

    Did I accidentally slip into an alternate dimension? The only time a necro has more blocks than an guardian is when that scourge bug was around which essentially gives the scourge infinite block against anything with aegis. Reaper has a total of two projectile destruction skills and they can get aegis if someone sets them on fire first ...

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭

    When I'm fighting, I tend to pull the camera out as far as I can, so I can get a good view of the battle. This allows me to see if there are any AoEs I need to dodge and allows me to see the enemy and any indicators of a direction of attack. Also, I try to dodge only if I'm unable to walk out of the danger zone. If I can walk or run, I do that. I used to be bad about dodging right into an attack because I was trying too hard, eventually I started to focus on the boss and my surroundings and I started to do a little better. I don't know if this will help, but I hope it does.

    “I have never listened to anyone who criticized my taste in space travel, sideshows or gorillas. When this occurs, I pack up my dinosaurs and leave the room.” - Ray Bradbury

  • Cifrer.6013Cifrer.6013 Member ✭✭✭

    The biggest thing with dodging is to hold the direction you want to move in before you hit the dodge. You don't have to be holding it very long, but getting into the habit of doing so will make it so that you don't just dodge randomly or accidentally hit the direction after you hit the dodge.

    Most of the big attacks that will either hit hard or incapacitate you in some way do have tells to them. Generally either a long windup or a red AoE marker. A circle, or half circle, or line, etc. They aren't significantly long tells, so you have to keep on your toes.

    Learning what attacks to avoid, mitigate, or ignore gets to be fairly important so you don't waste your blocks or evades on weaker attacks leaving yourself open to the stronger ones. Best way to do that is to just fight the mobs in as low a number as you can find and take your time fighting them to see what they do. Pay attention to how far you need to be to avoid being hit, how long it takes the mob to actually make their attack, what the attack looks like so you can recognize it. Sure, you can watch a video about that, but I honestly believe it would be easier and more intuitive to do it yourself.

    Knowing what skills to use, and when to use them is also very important. Avoiding damage is always the preferred method in GW2. Sure, you can mitigate damage or remove it or block it, etc. You don't have enough skills on the bar with fast enough cool downs to do that with everything though, so avoiding damage ends up taking priority.

    Positioning is very important. Even being just outside melee range can make a big difference. Enough so that there are times where it's worthwhile to step in to make your hit, then step back when the enemy starts their big windup to try to smash you(ettins are a great example of this).

    Personally, I think a lot of people focus too much on "rotations, rotations, rotations." A lot of combat can be viewed more intuitively than simply what number do I hit when to get as much damage off as quickly as possible. That type of mechanical efficiency works best in isolated settings, such as dungeons, raids, or pvp. In open world, it's better to know what your options are and use them when appropriate as opposed to trying to tie yourself to some specified set of attacks for every encounter. This is of course at the detriment of doing the absolute maximum DPS, but it significantly aids in survivability. Being willing to step out of the rotation mindset to adapt to ever evolving conditions is important in solo play.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tsakhi.8124 said:
    When I'm fighting, I tend to pull the camera out as far as I can, so I can get a good view of the battle. This allows me to see if there are any AoEs I need to dodge and allows me to see the enemy and any indicators of a direction of attack. Also, I try to dodge only if I'm unable to walk out of the danger zone. If I can walk or run, I do that. I used to be bad about dodging right into an attack because I was trying too hard, eventually I started to focus on the boss and my surroundings and I started to do a little better. I don't know if this will help, but I hope it does.

    Dodging into(as in forward) is actually a good idea. Usually that means even if you mess up the timing a bit you will still avoid the attack by being behind the attacker.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

    If it all breaks down to specific classes with completely unique mechanics then I can see why no one can balance properly.

    It isn't and they do. There is a sound that plays and a flash that appears during big, "you should get out of the way now" attacks, and every attack is telegraphed before it happens. If you need practice, go visit Queensdale and Train With the Local Militia (heart quest) around Beetletun.

    The "class specifics" they refer to are the different ways each class has for mitigating damage. The simple fact is, you can't be reactive to damage any more. You have to be proactive. This is going to be hard at first, Heart of Thorns is a big difficulty spike from the original content... until you figure it out.

    Learn how and when these enemies attack. Look at how they move, what they're doing. Raptors are going to flank you and launch a coordinated spike. Mordrem wolves will charge through you, and destroy you from behind. Mordrem Leechers leave acid trails but won't necessarily chase you. It's all about observation.

    Positioning is your best friend. Always keep moving. See where enemy attacks are going and don't be there. You can avoid a lot of attacks simply by walking to a safer place. Very few attacks root you in place, so stay as mobile as you can.

    Work together. You aren't a lone hero adventuring anymore. Sometimes the best way to avoid taking damage is getting it to hit someone else. Make use of your AoE CCs and team support options so you aren't getting everyone killed. Again, be alert, be aware. Look for your opportunities or chances to create them.

    Don't be afraid to turn tail and run. Retreat is always an option, especially if you can harass or create hazards along the way. Use your experience to reevaluate your approach. Stealth is incredibly powerful, but won't stop an attack in progress.

    Examine and adapt your build. If you're getting swarmed by raptors faster than you can evade them, then switch to an AoE weapon and nuke them down before they can hit you. If you can't avoid enough damage by blocking, try combining your blocks with other battlefield controls like barriers and pushes. (Again, positioning is your best friend). If you're not sure when to use a CC, just throw one out and see what happens. Sometimes you just need ranged weapon, or a bigger/faster Heal skill (and remember to use it).

    I completely understand your frustration. But, at the risk of being branded an kitten, these are very much "learn to play" issues. You'll get the hang of it, and when you do, you'll feel like such a badkitten.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2018

    Something like this is what I'm talking about.

    The thing is on the recent episode of TeaTime, Mighty Teapot and Company were discussing that there were not enough resources in game to help teach people coming in, the consensus was literally congratulations on saving Shaemor by pressing 1, welcome to the world and dance in front of cows, good luck your on your own except for a brief dodging game.

    I can only hope one of these partners steps up to the plate and makes something as comprehensive as Dottz Gaming has for ESO.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Marleen.8549Marleen.8549 Member ✭✭

    This link is not about different classes and its not youtube but you might find some usefull stuff there about moving and dodging.
    https://whyigame.wordpress.com/the-beginners-guide-to-movement-in-combat-guild-wars-2/

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Marleen.8549 said:
    This link is not about different classes and its not youtube but you might find some usefull stuff there about moving and dodging.
    https://whyigame.wordpress.com/the-beginners-guide-to-movement-in-combat-guild-wars-2/

    Thanks, that's helpful.

    I'd like to say most of these posts on this thread have been helpful.

    I only updated this because I recently found Dottz's updated guide for ESO, while recently watching Tea Time where they're talking about things mentioned in my OP. I figured it was worthy of an update.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭

    tl;dr all posts, so if it's been said ... sorry.

    One main difference between Gw1 and Gw2 is the hopes Gw2 people will naturally group together and fight as a group instead of being solo (with mercs) like in Gw1.
    The only place I really see people grouping up are Events that require numbers, bounties, and HP/MP trains.

    Reaper/MM is my "goto", I have World Completion, HoT completion, and PoF completion with it.
    My others (ranger, DD, Dragonhunter, and Revenant) all come in far behind.

    "That's what" -- She

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    tl;dr all posts, so if it's been said ... sorry.

    One main difference between Gw1 and Gw2 is the hopes Gw2 people will naturally group together and fight as a group instead of being solo (with mercs) like in Gw1.
    The only place I really see people grouping up are Events that require numbers, bounties, and HP/MP trains.

    Reaper/MM is my "goto", I have World Completion, HoT completion, and PoF completion with it.
    My others (ranger, DD, Dragonhunter, and Revenant) all come in far behind.

    That's how I roll as well.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

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