Will anything happen to make Ascalon great again?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Imba.9451 said:Well, Grawl basicall could do the same. And thats the same level I categorized charr back then: A primitive species. Like the Orks in W40k, it's all about stompin' an' smashin'.

In Prophecies, we could also see grawl congregating around monuments made by other species (which led some players to speculate they worshiped the then Five Gods), and were constantly seen fighting each other (particularly in Regent Valley). They never wore metal armor either, just crude cloth, the most intricate thing being the feather-and-stick crowns; and their weapons tended to be sticks and stones rather then metal (what metal weapons they had could be attested to scavenged given they lived where civilized races lived - charr, humans, dwarves, and tengu).

The charr had metal armor and weapons, fine woven clothe and leather, and a pretty obviously strict and notable societal hierarchy in Prophecies alone, even if not speech.

There were similarities, to be sure, but the charr were still pretty clearly above the level of grawl without either Eye of the North or Nightfall.

[Stramatus.5219]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

No. Charr did conquer Ascalon before humans who conquered it from charr, but it wasn't theirs originally.

Charr took it from others (given the hints we see, from grawl and dwarves) and claimed it for themselves.

Less than a generation later

, humans took it from charr and held it for over a thousand years.

So the charr held Ascalon for less than a century.

Sources:

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Grawl

"Somewhere in these depths rests the legendary Kathandrax's Crusher. Kathandrax Steelsoul was a great Dwarven hero who repelled the Charr time and again. The Charr came to view Kathandrax with respect, and his weapon with fear."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Swithin_Nye

And lastly, in Edge of Destiny novel, Logan, Caithe, and Rytlock stumble upon an ancient dwarven town underneath southern Ascalon not far from Ebonhawke and ogre territory (so somewhere underneath Fields of Ruin is most likely).

Given all this, it is clear that Ascalon

truely

belongs to the grawl, not charr nor humans.

MakeAscalonGrawlAgain

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

All of that was GW2 era. Back in GW1 we didn't even know that there

were

separate Legions- as far as we were told, all charr had always been burning sacrifices alive. The only motive we were provided was that they were bloodthirsty and served at the whim of malevolent entities with a grudge against humanity.

We were told in Prophecies that charr came from 'the north', and in EotN we got a region called the Charr Homelands (what GW2 renamed as the Blood Legion Homelands). Never any indication that they'd been in Ascalon before humans, although we did know they'd been launching raids into Ascalon for centuries.

(Incidentally, you can argue that Ascalon originally belonged to the grawl, not the charr. Even the GW2 lore grants that they didn't start in Ascalon; they expanded into it and subjugated whatever races were living there beforehand.)

It is technically from The Ecology of the Charr, which was released shortly after Eye of the North's release (October 2007 iirc); years before GW2. So one could argue it was GW1 era.

Though it wasn't really stated to be grawl territory before the charr until Planet of the Grawl, which came out late 2011.

Thank you! The whole premise of Ascalon being "charr homeland" and the propaganda perpetrated by the game (and subsequently the players whose entry into the series was with GW2) of the Charr as "reclaiming a homeland" through the GW2 story/world has been nothing short of infuriating to me as a GW1 veteran. I get it somewhat as the saying goes history is written by the victors.

But my god, they have totally trampled on Ascalonians. It's like give me a paper cut. Ok now go ahead and pour some lemon juice on it. Ok...now why don't you rub some salt in too while you're at it for good measure. What makes it worse is as a player I have a chance in the Dead Sister path of the human personal story to choose my heritage as Ascalonian (and PROUD of it), and then never in the game since then have I been able to play through that heritage identity. It's sing and hold hands kumbaya with Rytlock who inexplicably (going on 6 years now) has Rurik's sword, go help the charr kill your old countrymen (yeah ok, I get it, foefire, but still), oh and here's a fractal where we make you a charr and go kill all the Ascalonians.

And not only that, in GW1 the Charr crossed the Shiverpeaks to attack Kryta, and the Crystal Desert to attack Orr which lead to Vizier Khilbron enacting the Cataclysm that sunk Orr. Am I to believe those are Charr homelands too? Give me a break.

[Imba.9451]

I am looking forward to the sub forum in about 3 weeks to ask these questions. Anet hasn't forgotten about us. And while I am at it, I want the Mursaat back. As playable race.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Stramatus.5219 said:Thank you! The whole premise of Ascalon being "charr homeland" and the propaganda perpetrated by the game (and subsequently the players whose entry into the series was with GW2) of the Charr as "reclaiming a homeland" through the GW2 story/world has been nothing short of infuriating to me as a GW1 veteran. I get it somewhat as the saying goes history is written by the victors.

In all honesty, the situation is pretty similar to Jerusalem and who "deserves" to own that holy city. There are many factions proclaiming rights, due to their ancestors having owned it at one point or another, so there's no clear "owner".

In the sense that the charr ruled Ascalon before humans, they would be reclaiming a homeland.

But in the sense that charr owned Ascalon longer than humans, they wouldn't be.

It's a matter of "how does one define who has the right to rule".

Many fantasy stories will often proclaim that the "rightful king" is not the one who currently rules and has for several decades or even generations, but the bloodline of the original lineage, who nowadays happens to only be found in this peasant who fought for the people's rights.

In all honesty, the charr's claim follows that exact same trope. "We were here first, so it is ours." / "It was my ancestor who founded this land, so the crown is mine by rights."

Though in technicality, it would be second, but those who were there first - dwarves and grawl - are either extinct thus no right to rule, or so disorganized and primitive they couldn't maintain a nation even if their hand was held through the process.

@Stramatus.5219 said:And not only that, in GW1 the Charr crossed the Shiverpeaks to attack Kryta, and the Crystal Desert to attack Orr which lead to Vizier Khilbron enacting the Cataclysm that sunk Orr. Am I to believe those are Charr homelands too? Give me a break.

They were never conquered, just assaulted.

[Stramatus.5219]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In all honesty, the situation is pretty similar to Jerusalem and who "deserves" to own that holy city. There are many factions proclaiming rights, due to their ancestors having owned it at one point or another, so there's no clear "owner".

I do agree with that analogy. I just go down the path that says which race did ANET retcon? That would be the Charr. Every lore indication says that Ascalon was never their original homeland. And if you look at the land area of Ascalon compared to the rest of the Charr territory north and east of it, Ascalon is a very small part of it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Stramatus.5219 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In all honesty, the situation is pretty similar to Jerusalem and who "deserves" to own that holy city. There are many factions proclaiming rights, due to their ancestors having owned it at one point or another, so there's no clear "owner".

I do agree with that analogy. I just go down the path that says which race did ANET retcon? That would be the Charr. Every lore indication says that Ascalon was never their

original

homeland. And if you look at the land area of Ascalon compared to the rest of the Charr territory north and east of it, Ascalon is a very small part of it.

There was no retcon, really. Not in the way of "replacing old lore with new". This was just adding new lore where we had nothing before. We knew that Ascalon was taken by humanity in 100 BE, and we even knew that in 115 BE there were immense wars that Doric had been a part of, and that King Doric was crowned in ~100 BE in Ascalon. While we never knew the context of those 115 BE wars, it would be no real retcon to say "it was against the charr in taking Ascalon for humanity".

As for size, I would say that much like Jerusalem, it's not about the number of acres that is covered, but more the principle of owning it. The loss of Ascalon to humanity was the very first time the charr had suffered a major defeat, ever. That is a huge blow to pride, one that as we see with our own history for why various groups despise each other, is not unrealistic to last generations and centuries. Especially if the battles last that long too.

[Dustfinger.9510]

Tbf, the Charr allowed the original inhabitants to remain there while they ruled. So, technically, they didn't take the land from them. They simply destroyed any enemy who challenged their rule.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

There is no hint of dwarves in Ascalon in GW1, so they were definitely forced out it seems, and grawl got displaced into the Shiverpeaks due to the charr (or otherwise enslaved until humans came along), so I wouldn't say they allowed the original inhabitants to remain.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There is no hint of dwarves in Ascalon in GW1, so they were definitely forced out it seems, and grawl got displaced into the Shiverpeaks due to the charr (or otherwise enslaved until humans came along), so I wouldn't say they allowed the original inhabitants to remain.

Perhaps those were the ones who couldn't stomach serving and refused to fight to the death about it? Either way, ecology says they subjugated or destroyed those who defied them.

How is enslaving not allowing them to remain?

[Castigator.3470]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There is no hint of dwarves in Ascalon in GW1, so they were definitely forced out it seems, and grawl got displaced into the Shiverpeaks due to the charr (or otherwise enslaved until humans came along), so I wouldn't say they allowed the original inhabitants to remain.

However, we do not know to what extent the dwarves settled the ascalonian basin, nor do we know which faction eventually drove the dwarves back. There are dwarven ruins in what is today the Blood Legion Homelands, the lack of dwarven remains suggests, however, that these places were abandoned, rather than conquered. It is likely that the dwarves evacuated due to the presence of both Primordus and Kralkatorrik, who would have made it impossible to hide either above or underground.

• Ascalon, or rather its south was inhabited by the forgotten, who at some point retreated south into the Crystal Desert. Before that, the charr avoided any area with a larger presence of forgotten by using the mountains as fallback positions. as stated in the "Ecology of the Charr". So if we're super pedantic the forgotten may have been the earliest documented inhabitants of (southern) Ascalon within the last cycle of elder dragon activity. If I recall correctly that cycle ended on a sour note. The Mursaat phased out, the Seers swore vengeance, the Jotunn abandoned their magic in order to survive, the dwarves hid underground and the forgotten hid in the Mists, while maintaining some presence on Tyria.
• There were also sparsely distributed grawl tribes, many of which exist to this day, but since they have been annoying, but never threatening to the other races, there was never a large campaign to get rid of them. In fact not even the Flame Legion has attempted to drive out the grawls, they did employ them as slaves, though, see the Pig Iron Mine in Fireheart Rise. The book "Ecology of the Charr" also states, that the charr subjugated or destroyed anyone who opposed them. "Planet of the Grawl" even mentions the existance of charr artwork depicting charr leaders, who recieve tribute from the grawl, so it's safe to say the grawls were not driven out, but milked for tribute.
• The next sentient race to settle the land is the charr, who were quick to claim Ascalon and in the absense of the forgotten declare themselves undisputed rulers of the land. This coincided with the unification of the charr warbands under a leader so ferocious and awe-inspiring, that he managed to put an end to their infighting. Thanks to another event, we can somewhat accurately date the charr settlement of Ascalon somewhere between 200 B.E. and 100 B.E., but much more likely somewhere between 150 B.E. and 100 B.E. Since charr seem to mature at about the same rate as humans, that's about one generation, with one generation of charr being born in Ascalon.
• The humans arrived on the surface of Tyria in 786 B.E. in Cantha, brought into the world by their gods. The Kingdoms of Orr, Istan and Elona were all founded around 205 B.E and it took them another 105 years to arrive in Ascalon in 100 B.E. The human arrival coincided with the assassination of the Khan Ur, which made the charr vulnerable and easy to push out of the immediate area. And while the Kingdom lasted an incredible 1190 years, I presume, that Ascalon in the time of 100 B.E. until 1 B.E. was a sparsely settled Kingdom centered around its initial settlement and gradually expanded into the surrounding countryside. In the year before the Exodus, however, the humans were granted immense magical power by the gods, which allowed the humans to really crank up the expansionist attitude, subjugating, or driving out all the other races, encouraged to do so by Balthazar. The charr, like other cats, are incredibly stubborn and put up a fight. While they were pushed back more and more, they did not give up. Instead they constantly led assaults on Ascalon, which led to the construction of the great wall. Even if the territories north of the wall got periodically overwhelmed, the humans could always bounce back from the wall's protection. Until 1070 A.E when the wall was breached by the Searing. Without the wall, the Ascalonians valiantly held out for another 20 years, but in 1090 A.E their capital fell. The ascalonian basin still has a human population in Ebonhawke at the southern edge of the region. The duchy of Ebonhawke is a de facto vassal of Kryta, however.
• Ascalon is also home to the Harpies, who seem to be similar non threats to the charr. They have migrated from Elona, sometime after 1090 A.E.
• The newest sentient race to enter the land is the ogres, who push into Ascalon in search of land and creatures to tame. The ogres seem to have increased their efforts in 1320 A.E. but they are periodically pushed back into the Blazeridge Mountains by both humans and charr.

[Imba.9451]

So #MakeAscalonForgottenAgain?

To me the point still stands, that humans built the greatest social, cultural and historical legacy in Ascalon. Before them, every other race has simply "been there" at some point, but noone actually did anything worth remembering. The Charr as a race have been in their social-evolutionary infancy, hardly able to stop infighting let alone build anything of cultural importance.So, judging not by "who was there first" or "who put up da best stompin'n'smashin'", the humans actually made best use of the land they inhabited/conquered. Imho, thats worth something.Charr took another few hundreds of years until they finally have been able to settle down and built something thats worth calling society. And they still could get some inspirations on how to build some nice-looking architecture :DThats where the Jerusalem Analogy lacks. Ascalon ain't some form of "holy site", it simply is a case of Charr stubborness and fragile pride.

[norbes.3620]

I would not say that the Charr did not build something woth calling a Society. we still dont know much about that. but we can assume that the charr control the biggest area and just to Keep an area like that is not easy to accomplish. maybe they lack of high cultural stuff like Theater or stuff like that. but thats more to the fact that their whole Society is more militaristic and functional then what ur used too. they simply do other stuff for fun like gladiator fights for example.and u can say the same about the architecture.. (i hate it really its super ugly) still its functional they build the black citadell into a fortress made of metal scrap and junk they did not Need for warmachines(at least it Looks like that, but i think i read something regarding this in the wiki- someone wanna do some Research?)

the charr are just not a race who care about "lookin nice an fancy" - and it would not fit them as they are designed now. cuz it would stand out too much from the rest of their buildings

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Imba.9451 said:So #MakeAscalonForgottenAgain?The Forgotten are a dead race. You've got statues and branded specimens. That's it.

 

Now if someone went and did that freeing ritual that the forgotten themselves developed on some of the branded forgotten, I wonder how that would turn out?

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There is no hint of dwarves in Ascalon in GW1, so they were definitely forced out it seems, and grawl got displaced into the Shiverpeaks due to the charr (or otherwise enslaved until humans came along), so I wouldn't say they allowed the original inhabitants to remain.

Perhaps those were the ones who couldn't stomach serving and refused to fight to the death about it? Either way, ecology says they subjugated or destroyed those who defied them.

How is enslaving not allowing them to remain?I'd hesitate to call the grawl of GW1, let alone a thousand years prior, sophisticated enough to be capable of pre-emptively leaving due to foreseeing slavery. Especially when

Planet of the Grawl

tells us they were forced out.

"The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level."

Further, you stated the charr "allowed the original inhabitants to remain there while they ruled. So, technically, they didn't take the land from them." This implies two things. First, the people were completely enslaved. Second, they owned the land still, but did not govern themselves.

If an entire species is either exiled or enslaved, then they do not have their land.

@Castigator.3470 said:However, we do not know to what extent the dwarves settled the ascalonian basin, nor do we know which faction eventually drove the dwarves back. There are dwarven ruins in what is today the Blood Legion Homelands, the lack of dwarven remains suggests, however, that these places were abandoned, rather than conquered.

The sole confirmed dwarven structure in the now-called Blood Legion Homelands, the Catacombs of Kathandrax, is the tomb of a dwarf who fought against the charr until death...

That's the pure definition of dwarven remains and being conquered.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kathandrax_Steelsoulhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Swithin_Nye

@Castigator.3470 said:It is likely that the dwarves evacuated due to the presence of both Primordus and Kralkatorrik, who would have made it impossible to hide either above or underground.The dwarves were gone from Ascalon long before GW1. Such "evacuation" would be have to be well prior to 100 BE, in fact. Over a thousand years before Primordus or Kralkatorrik woke up.

@Castigator.3470 said:Ascalon, or rather its south was inhabited by the forgotten, who at some point retreated south into the Crystal Desert. Before that, the charr avoided any area with a larger presence of forgotten by using the mountains as fallback positions. as stated in the "Ecology of the Charr". So if we're super pedantic the forgotten may have been the earliest documented inhabitants of (southern) Ascalon within the last cycle of elder dragon activity. If I recall correctly that cycle ended on a sour note. The Mursaat phased out, the Seers swore vengeance, the Jotunn abandoned their magic in order to survive, the dwarves hid underground and the forgotten hid in the Mists, while maintaining some presence on Tyria.The Ecology actually explicitly states the Forgotten were not inhabiting Ascalon at the time, but south of Ascalon - south of even Ebonhawke, as they were south of the mountain range. This would place them around northern Desert Highlands or that gap between Fields of Ruin and Desert Highlands at the time.

And you don't recall. The mursaat did phase out, and it was the mursaat who swore vengeance. The jotun's abandonment of magic is unclear to be willing (as you say) or forced upon them with the creation of the Bloodstone. Nothing actually suggests the dwarves hid underground. And the Forgotten didn't hide in the Mists - they were hidden by Glint (as were the dwarves, jotun, and Seers); they originally came from the Mists, they never retreated into them (that was the mursaat's "phasing out").

@Castigator.3470 said:Planet of the Grawl" even mentions the existance of charr artwork depicting charr leaders, who recieve tribute from the grawl, so it's safe to say the grawls were not driven out, but milked for tribute.Planet of the Grawl also state that some grawl did get driven out by the charr (just not all grawl), into the Shiverpeaks, thus explaining why we see some grawl tribes in the mountains.

@Castigator.3470 said:The next sentient race to settle the land is the charr, who were quick to claim Ascalon and in the absense of the forgotten declare themselves undisputed rulers of the land. This coincided with the unification of the charr warbands under a leader so ferocious and awe-inspiring, that he managed to put an end to their infighting. Thanks to another event, we can somewhat accurately date the charr settlement of Ascalon somewhere between 200 B.E. and 100 B.E., but much more likely somewhere between 150 B.E. and 100 B.E. Since charr seem to mature at about the same rate as humans, that's about one generation, with one generation of charr being born in Ascalon.The charr unfiied under the Khan-Ur before even entering the now-called Blood Legion Homelands... That said, his death is what allowed the charr to scatter enough for humans to conquer Ascalon in 100 BE. So Ascalon and "Charr/Blood Legion Homelands" north of Ascalon were conquered in less than a generation so yes, likely between 200 and 100 BE. Less than one generation would be born in Ascalon though.

@Castigator.3470 said:The humans arrived on the surface of Tyria in 786 B.E. in Cantha, brought into the world by their gods.We actually do not have a date for when humanity arrived on the world. Human history suggests they arrived on the world at Orr, but with Cantha being founded before Orr, that would imply they were quickly taken to another land before sailing back to Central Tyria and Elona in 205 BE. Whether they were initially taken to Cantha or some other land is unclear.

[Stramatus.5219]

@"Imba.9451" said:So #MakeAscalonForgottenAgain?

To me the point still stands, that humans built the greatest social, cultural and historical legacy in Ascalon. Before them, every other race has simply "been there" at some point, but noone actually did anything worth remembering. The Charr as a race have been in their social-evolutionary infancy, hardly able to stop infighting let alone build anything of cultural importance.So, judging not by "who was there first" or "who put up da best stompin'n'smashin'", the humans actually made best use of the land they inhabited/conquered. Imho, thats worth something.Charr took another few hundreds of years until they finally have been able to settle down and built something thats worth calling society. And they still could get some inspirations on how to build some nice-looking architecture :DThats where the Jerusalem Analogy lacks. Ascalon ain't some form of "holy site", it simply is a case of Charr stubborness and fragile pride.

And this is why I feel the humans have an overall better claim to Ascalon.

The propaganda of the Charr in claiming it is their homeland is just not factually supported by anything. Did they occupy it for a time? Yes, but far less than the Kingdom of Ascalon. Were they originally from Ascalon (in order to claim it as a 'homeland')? No.

[Castigator.3470]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Further, you stated the charr "allowed the original inhabitants to remain there while they ruled. So, technically, they didn't take the land from them." This implies two things. First, the people were completely enslaved. Second, they owned the land still, but did not govern themselves.If an entire species is either exiled or enslaved, then they do not have their land.Planet of the Grawl also state that some grawl did get driven out by the charr (just not all grawl), into the Shiverpeaks, thus explaining why we see some grawl tribes in the mountains.

Still, the point remains that there are Grawl tribes in today's Ascalon, who are left alone for the most part. The only exception to this is when they stir up some trouble, like the statue of Balthazar incident in Ashford. As we learned in "Planet of the Grawl" the grawl prefer to stick to the periphery, avoiding contact with other races, unless they can get some trinkets out of them. The only exception is their tendency to worship what they cannot understand. Flame Legion has been known to exploit that tendency. This matches the observations in Guild Wars, where Galton Frank remarks the following:Galton Franks said:Wherever you find grawl, Charr are not far behind. I've convinced the Vanguard to test this theory. I think the grawl are either proto-Charr or, more likely, an important source of Charr nutrition. Either way, removing the grawl should help thin out the Charr. If you want to aid my research, kill grawl and bring me their stone "necklaces" so I can keep an accurate count. Ultimately we may have to remove all the grawl as part of the solution to the Charr problem. For now, for every 8 Stone Grawl Necklaces you bring, I will give you:This indicates that the humans were not any nicer to the Grawl than the charr were.Plus, there were grawl in the Shiverpeaks in the Southern Shiverpeaks in 1072 A.E. before the charr even had full control over Ascalon. They either were pushed out by someone else, settled the area prior to the time of GW1, or escaped their slavers.There is an example of what I mean in Fireheart Rise. The Nrocroc, Tarstar and Wupwup tribes live in the relative vicinity of Flame Legion. They are regularly tricked into working for the Charr by the likes of Shaman Scaldmaw.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The sole confirmed dwarven structure in the now-called Blood Legion Homelands, the Catacombs of Kathandrax, is the tomb of a dwarf who fought against the charr until death...That's the pure definition of dwarven remains and being conquered.Yes, there is the Catacombs of Kathandrax, who fought against charr, pushed them back and earned their respect. There is, however a distinct lack of settlements, cities, villages, or mines. The dwarves were known as excellent builders and the Catacombs of Kathandrax, while awe inspiring cannot be the only trace left by the dwarves. Unless there was a settlement below ground. Well, it does fulfill the definition of dwarven remains being conquered.Still we don't know anything about the life of Kathandrax Steelsoul, or whether or not he died by the hand of a charr, or even just old age. Only that his hammer is buried in a dungeon guarded by a fire elemental.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The dwarves were gone from Ascalon long before GW1. Such "evacuation" would be have to be well prior to 100 BE, in fact. Over a thousand years before Primordus or Kralkatorrik woke up.As far as we know, the last rise of the elder dragons happened somewhere between 10.000 B.E and 1000 B.E. We do know where this rampage ended and yes, this must have taken place before 100 B.E. . The locations of the sleeping elder dragons make it seem reasonable that they relocate until the world of Tyria has been grazed off, so to speak. And just one elder dragon getting close can turn a landscape uninhabitable. Also, we don't know whether Kathandrax was from this or the former cycle. The dwarves could have been long gone when the charr arrived. Considering how far away the Blood Legion Homeland is from the Deldrimor Front, and the Tomb being referred to as ancient even back in GW1, this could have meant charr and dwarves clashed as far back as 1000 B.E. The dwarves retained the records of the past and even some charr tales exist, that may allude to the elder dragons.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Ecology actually explicitly states the Forgotten were not inhabiting Ascalon at the time, but south of Ascalon - south of even Ebonhawke, as they were south of the mountain range. This would place them around northern Desert Highlands or that gap between Fields of Ruin and Desert Highlands at the time.Except that makes no sense, becuase the charr would not have to hide in the Blazeridge Mountains, if their only threat is far to the south behind the southern mountain range. That would only make sense if the forgotten maintained some presence in the ascalonian basin, or the charr were already there. You don't have to put two mountain ranges between you and the forgotten, when one is sufficient. And since we can rule out major charr presence in Ascalon before the time of the Khan Ur, there must have been something to prevent them from just settling in. That, or the forgotten made some excursions into the land.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And you don't recall. The mursaat did phase out, and it was the mursaat who swore vengeance. The jotun's abandonment of magic is unclear to be willing (as you say) or forced upon them with the creation of the Bloodstone. Nothing actually suggests the dwarves hid underground. And the Forgotten didn't hide in the Mists - they were hidden by Glint (as were the dwarves, jotun, and Seers); they originally came from the Mists, they never retreated into them (that was the mursaat's "phasing out").The who betrayed who for whom of the last cycle is likely a complex issue. Case in point: The mursaat rejected the seer's Bloodstone plan, they sought a military victory over the dragons, the forgotten freed Glint and the Jotunn, formerly a race of powerful sages and magic users, collapsed.But if the dwarves did not dwell underground, then how did they get to know the Asura and how did the Stone Summit enslave the dredge? Sorrows Forge was no open cast mining operation and there seems to have been an extensive underground settlement in Fortune's Vale. That doesn't prohibit the dwarves from surface dwelling either, nor does it state that Glint did not help to keep them hidden. She knew, after all, the places where Kralkatorrik wouldn't be looking.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The charr unfiied under the Khan-Ur before even entering the now-called Blood Legion Homelands... That said, his death is what allowed the charr to scatter enough for humans to conquer Ascalon in 100 BE. So Ascalon and "Charr/Blood Legion Homelands" north of Ascalon were conquered in less than a generation so yes, likely between 200 and 100 BE. Less than one generation would be born in Ascalon though.I suppose you are referring to this:The Ecology of the Charr:"No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed."To claim that the Blood legion homeland was not settled by charr is a bit of a stretch, when it calls it the northern reaches of their homeland. This implies it was already part of their homelands, but their control of the area may have been contested.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:We actually do not have a date for when humanity arrived on the world. Human history suggests they arrived on the world at Orr, but with Cantha being founded before Orr, that would imply they were quickly taken to another land before sailing back to Central Tyria and Elona in 205 BE. Whether they were initially taken to Cantha or some other land is unclear.There is a timeline in "Road to the Desert" by Scott McGough. The timeline states, that humans first appeared in Tyria in 786 B.E then spread to Orr in 200 B.E. , where Arah was constructed as a dwelling for the gods, and finally to Elona.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@"Imba.9451" said:So #MakeAscalonForgottenAgain?

To me the point still stands, that humans built the greatest social, cultural and historical legacy in Ascalon. Before them, every other race has simply "been there" at some point, but noone actually did anything worth remembering. The Charr as a race have been in their social-evolutionary infancy, hardly able to stop infighting let alone build anything of cultural importance.So, judging not by "who was there first" or "who put up da best stompin'n'smashin'", the humans actually made best use of the land they inhabited/conquered. Imho, thats worth something.Charr took another few hundreds of years until they finally have been able to settle down and built something thats worth calling society. And they still could get some inspirations on how to build some nice-looking architecture :DThats where the Jerusalem Analogy lacks. Ascalon ain't some form of "holy site", it simply is a case of Charr stubborness and fragile pride.

if we're going by doing something worth remembering, i'd say the Charr have surpassed the Ascalonian humans. Their inventions alone contribute more to the world than a nice looking stone castle does.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There is no hint of dwarves in Ascalon in GW1, so they were definitely forced out it seems, and grawl got displaced into the Shiverpeaks due to the charr (or otherwise enslaved until humans came along), so I wouldn't say they allowed the original inhabitants to remain.

Perhaps those were the ones who couldn't stomach serving and refused to fight to the death about it? Either way, ecology says they subjugated or destroyed those who defied them.

How is enslaving not allowing them to remain?I'd hesitate to call the grawl of GW1, let alone a thousand years prior, sophisticated enough to be capable of pre-emptively leaving due to foreseeing slavery. Especially when

Planet of the Grawl

tells us they were forced out.

"The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level."

Further, you stated the charr "allowed the original inhabitants to remain there while they ruled. So, technically, they didn't take the land from them." This implies two things. First, the people were completely enslaved. Second, they owned the land still, but did not govern themselves.

If an entire species is either exiled or enslaved, then they do not have their land.

Let's not change the goal post. Premptive leaving, as a requirement, is no where in the discussion. If they are currently on the land and have always been, they were allowed to stay.

[Nicholas S Lin.6187]

I would like human Ascalonian to return from Kryta and rebuild Ascalon City and the other major human cities like Serenity Temple and Fort Ranik. Realistically I would say that only Ascalon City will be multicultural and be like Lion's Arch - but ruled by a human council representing all cities of human-Ascalon: Ascalon City, Ebonhawke, Serenity Temple and Ashford(?). (PS: Note I chose Serenity Temple as a city as well since I believe it holds such an important cultural and religious significance to humans.)

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@Nicholas S Lin.6187 said:I would like human Ascalonian to return from Kryta and rebuild Ascalon City and the other major human cities like Serenity Temple and Fort Ranik. Realistically I would say that only Ascalon City will be multicultural and be like Lion's Arch - but ruled by a human council representing all cities of human-Ascalon: Ascalon City, Ebonhawke, Serenity Temple and Ashford(?). (PS: Note I chose Serenity Temple as a city as well since I believe it holds such an important cultural and religious significance to humans.)

convincing charr to allow for this would be...... interesting task xD

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Nicholas S Lin.6187 said:I would like human Ascalonian to return from Kryta and rebuild Ascalon City and the other major human cities like Serenity Temple and Fort Ranik. Realistically I would say that only Ascalon City will be multicultural and be like Lion's Arch - but ruled by a human council representing all cities of human-Ascalon: Ascalon City, Ebonhawke, Serenity Temple and Ashford(?). (PS: Note I chose Serenity Temple as a city as well since I believe it holds such an important cultural and religious significance to humans.)

Human religion sucks though, the gods are dicks and there's no way this would happen anyway, the only city in the area they have or will likely ever have is Ebonhawke.

[witcher.3197]

@Ardid.7203 said:Then the Charr will be the legit rulers of Ascalon

Yeah over my dead body. That'd be the final spit in the face of GW1 players.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Nicholas S Lin.6187 said:I would like human Ascalonian to return from Kryta and rebuild Ascalon City and the other major human cities like Serenity Temple and Fort Ranik. Realistically I would say that only Ascalon City will be multicultural and be like Lion's Arch - but ruled by a human council representing all cities of human-Ascalon: Ascalon City, Ebonhawke, Serenity Temple and Ashford(?). (PS: Note I chose Serenity Temple as a city as well since I believe it holds such an important cultural and religious significance to humans.)

Human religion sucks though, the gods are kitten and there's no way this would happen anyway, the only city in the area they have or will likely ever have is Ebonhawke.

This is not entirely true. Based on Fields of Ruins and Blazeridge Steppes, Smodur is more than willing to concede the lands between the Dragonbrand and the Blazeridge Mountains. The humans have already established three outposts (two in FoR, one in Blazeridge) since the peace talks began. Meanwhile, the charr abandoned two outposts of theirs (leaving for the brand and ogres to take one each).

[Dante.1763]

@witcher.3197 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:Then the Charr will be the legit rulers of Ascalon

Yeah over my dead body. That'd be the final spit in the face of GW1 players.

Except..i played GW1 for a long time, 7 years. And as much as i loved Ascalon, i love it even more now that i can play a Charr.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Dante.1763 said:

@witcher.3197 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:Then the Charr will be the legit rulers of Ascalon

Yeah over my dead body. That'd be the final spit in the face of GW1 players.

Except..i played GW1 for a long time, 7 years. And as much as i loved Ascalon, i love it even more now that i can play a Charr.

Yeah I played 1 too and it just made me not want to play humans in 2.