Toughness/Vitality — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Toughness/Vitality

For a Warrior point for point is Toughness or Vitality better?

Comments

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First, you'd have to define "better." For general PvE use, Berserker gear is recommended, which has neither. What are you looking to do?

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  • Just survive longer. I am using a Great sword and have died to a Veteran Wolf Mother once and a Troll Veteran once. Went back and won both but still I was thinking about switching to Axe and Shield. Keeping a Rife as my second because I like the Rife. I don't mind taking longer to kill. Just seems like all the advice is do as much damage as fast as you can. So I am just curious.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warriors already have a high health pool, so boosting toughness might work for you. I use Power/Vit/Tough on one of my Warriors and I love the feel of it. Might not kill fast, but I'm not bothered.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeanBB.4268 said:
    First, you'd have to define "better." For general PvE use, Berserker gear is recommended, which has neither. What are you looking to do?

    @Jordus Stoutmantle.6417, this is absolutely correct. In general, the way GW2 combat works, you don't really want to stack either of them, because they don't really provide the benefits you would find in most other MMOs.

    Instead, combat in GW2 is about moving out of bad stuff, dodging, using other defensive tools, and smartly understanding how the enemy are going to act. Seriously, some of the enemy NPCs, which use the same skills players do, are most easily handled by knowing how the skills work. Deadly until you figure it out, relatively easy when you do. They are also much smarter than enemies in most other MMOs, in my experience, in that the don't just blindly keep hitting the "tank". :)

    So, the "recommended" strategy is just full "glass cannon" gear, because stacking either toughness or vitality doesn't really help. You still can't just tank incoming damage: you might go from one big attack up to two before you die, but that is going from three seconds of combat to six, and that isn't enough to win any significant fight.

    That said: if you are having trouble while you learn this, I absolutely recommend adding some defensive stats, because the difference between one-shot dead and one-shot-almost-dead in quite large in terms of learning, in my experience.

    If you do that, the "best" stat is Vitality. Not because it is inherently better than Toughness, but because the very, very few monsters that do respond to the "toughest" target around them, rather than the one hurting them the most, do it in the basis of toughness level. So, while it is rare, stacking toughness will occasionally attract something to focus on you and kill you first.

  • sitarskee.5738sitarskee.5738 Member ✭✭✭

    Power/Vitality/Toughness and you're pretty much unkillable but it will take you longer to kill. The thing is though, as you learn how to play your class you will find that it's pretty easy to survive in most cases in Open World and then you will lean towards Power/Ferocity/Precision which will make you kill stuff way faster.

  • Thanks for all the replies. I will practice more on avoiding then.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you want some more HP you can use Marauder stat gear. It's basically Berserker's stats but with more HP, makes a difference of around 4000 hp.

    I rather choose death.

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I second the Marauder gear. It's pretty cheap to craft, and gives a nice boost over zerk. Scrapper runes work pretty well if you want more survivability than you get with Strength runes. As for traits, I suggest Strength 3-2-2, Defense 1-1-1, and Discipline 2-3-3.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Valandor.9506Valandor.9506 Member ✭✭

    As other people sad already: Focus on offensive stats and use your dodges, blocks, movement, traits and utilities (see: invulns) instead, if needed.

    For endgame PvE I advise https://snowcrows.com/ - but you still got some time for that. ^^

    Some general thing: Whenever you have to decide between Toughness and Vitality for any profession in PvP/WvW, go for that rule: Against Power Damage: Toughness, against Condition Damage: Vitality. The reason is how physical/power damage calculates (see wiki) and the fact, that condis ingore your Toughness/Armor.

  • @Valandor.9506 said:

    Some general thing: Whenever you have to decide between Toughness and Vitality for any profession in PvP/WvW, go for that rule: Against Power Damage: Toughness, against Condition Damage: Vitality. The reason is how physical/power damage calculates (see wiki) and the fact, that condis ingore your Toughness/Armor.

    Everything everyone said is good info, but this is what I was looking for. I think it's pretty much same for all MMOs but I wanted to be sure. With others I used Vit mostly because it works for both (even if not as well for phys dmg). I also think killing fast is a way of survival because most PvE enemies hit slow and fairly predictable. It's simple math if you can kill them before they have a chance to hit you however many times you can survive, well, you survive. LOL Hit until right before they hit you, block, hit until right before they hit you, dodge, etc.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @Jordus Stoutmantle.6417 said:
    Just survive longer.

    Number One rule in GW2: You will survive best if you kill your enemy as quickly as possible and avoid huge damage. And for that neither Vitality nor Toughness will help you. Go for the gear that is recommended for your build, don't think that Vitality or Toughness will save you. It's all about builds and proper movement.

    @Valandor.9506 said:
    For endgame PvE I advise https://snowcrows.com/ - but you still got some time for that. ^^

    Don't. That's Raid builds only. Good PvE (and other game modes') builds can be found here: https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

  • I'll add one more thing, go mace/shield instead of axe/shield. I run GS and mace/shield on a power berserker. Mace 3 is a CC, shield 4 is a CC, and berserk mace F1 is also a CC. This will come in handy when you go up against things with defiance bars. With headbutt and bull's charge added to the weapon CCs, I do a lot of defiance bar breaking in the open world.

  • BRNBRITO.9624BRNBRITO.9624 Member ✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    Personally i run Strength 3-2-1, Discipline 2-3-1 (swap to 2-1-1 with banners if fighting at the same place for a bit), and Defense 3-3-1 with Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace and full berserker for open world.

    Food is also VERY helpful and doesn't cost much if you search a bit, Potent Superior Sharpening Stone costs 9s~/1h (for utility), and Steak and Asparagus/Truffle Steak/Orrian Steak/Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew/Fried Golden Dumpling (9s, 16s, 3s, 17s and 4s per 30 min, respectively). You can have 1 food + 1 utility active.

    To the limit/Healing Signet/Defiant Stance/Mending are all good heals and depend on the situation, Kick/Bolas to proc Peak Performance + Signet of Might and Fury if you're confident and lazy (respective banners if trait swapping), else you can play around with other utilities depending on the situation.

    For Great Justice for might/fury, Stomp for stab, Signet of Stamina for dodges/condi cleanse, Shake it off for stunbreak/condi cleanse, Frenzy to burst something quick etc... If you stack Vuln with Mace#4 on your target and CC it with Mace #5 Knockdown (or break the bar if Champion), proccing Peak Performance and doing Axe 4/2/5 should 1shot most of the time, even better if you can get your 3 stacks of F1 as well.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    Personally i run Strength 3-2-1, Discipline 2-3-1 (swap to 2-1-1 with banners if fighting at the same place for a bit), and Defense 3-3-1 with Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace and full berserker for open world.

    Food is also VERY helpful and doesn't cost much if you search a bit, Potent Superior Sharpening Stone costs 9s~/1h (for utility), and Steak and Asparagus/Truffle Steak/Orrian Steak/Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew/Fried Golden Dumpling (9s, 16s, 3s, 17s and 4s per 30 min, respectively). You can have 1 food + 1 utility active.

    To the limit/Healing Signet/Defiant Stance/Mending are all good heals and depend on the situation, Kick/Bolas to proc Peak Performance + Signet of Might and Fury if you're confident and lazy (respective banners if trait swapping), else you can play around with other utilities depending on the situation.

    For Great Justice for might/fury, Stomp for stab, Signet of Stamina for dodges/condi cleanse, Shake it off for stunbreak/condi cleanse, Frenzy to burst something quick etc... If you stack Vuln with Mace#4 on your target and CC it with Mace #5 Knockdown (or break the bar if Champion), proccing Peak Performance and doing Axe 4/2/5 should 1shot most of the time, even better if you can get your 3 stacks of F1 as well.

    For Great Justice is actually not all that useful for a solo situation. Axe 2 can provide plenty of fury. Even against a single target it is 4s fury on a 6s CD(4.75 when traited). You get plenty of might from Forceful Greatsword/axe burst/weapon swapping/dodging

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just use spellbreaker, strength and defense traitline, magebane tether gives 25stacks might, might makes right in strength gives heal per mightgain and more dodges.
    You can also get protection boon after using fullcounter, fullcoumter itself is a nice defensive tool and does decent dmg.

    Defense gives you lots of survivabillity with adrenal health regenerating hp, automated stab if you need, or healing and 1k armor on stunbreak, if you prefer that.
    Even automated endure pain, if you have to deal with lots of enemies, that dont 100% to 0% you in a single swing, but enough to kill you in a few.
    If you dont want endure pain you can also get more dmg in defense with armored attack.

    The only downside of this build are 10sec cd on weaponswap, but you will get used to it. Its perfect for playing openworld and especially soloing stuff

  • Trollocks.5084Trollocks.5084 Member ✭✭✭

    One thing to note if nobody else has said it: upping your toughness also increases your aggro with enemies. Meaning the higher the toughness, the more damage you will be taking.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trollocks.5084 said:
    One thing to note if nobody else has said it: upping your toughness also increases your aggro with enemies. Meaning the higher the toughness, the more damage you will be taking.

    Kind of true, yet not really relevant at all. High toughness/vitality builds are generally far easier to tank enemies with than a glass cannon just standing near an AoE field, the aggro itself become meaningless.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trollocks.5084 said:
    One thing to note if nobody else has said it: upping your toughness also increases your aggro with enemies. Meaning the higher the toughness, the more damage you will be taking.

    Kind of true, yet not really relevant at all. High toughness/vitality builds are generally far easier to tank enemies with than a glass cannon just standing near an AoE field, the aggro itself become meaningless.

    and it is only true for some enemies anyway

    some mobs also aggro on highest damage and there are various attacks that are based on range

  • Tanner Blackfeather.6509Tanner Blackfeather.6509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trollocks.5084 said:
    One thing to note if nobody else has said it: upping your toughness also increases your aggro with enemies. Meaning the higher the toughness, the more damage you will be taking.

    Kind of true, yet not really relevant at all. High toughness/vitality builds are generally far easier to tank enemies with than a glass cannon just standing near an AoE field, the aggro itself become meaningless.

    and it is only true for some enemies anyway

    some mobs also aggro on highest damage and there are various attacks that are based on range

    This! I see "more Toughness = more aggro" thrown around a lot, but that is absolutely not the whole truth!

    GW2 does not have a unified threat system. A lot of mobs have different criteria directing their aggro. Yes, some mobs (most notably several raid bosses) aggro on highest toughness. Other mobs are primarily focused on range (closest or furthest), and of course most are directed by damage done to them. Like many mechanics, ANet keeps this under the hood, so players can't actually have the full picture.
    See https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro for more info.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    Don't underestimate the value of a Ranged backup weapon.

    I really used to hate the Warrior class years ago because of the Zerker meta mentality and how squishy I used to find the class because of it.

    I never cared for that playstyle so I switched to something more tanky.
    It helpped but then damage sucked >.<
    These days I like to keep my Warriors a bit more in the middle, able to tank a few hits but still being able to hit fairly hard.
    and the good counter for that is to keep a ranged weapon as my backup (I use Rifle) so in moments of danger I can retreat and heal but still keep applying damage.
    Likewise in huge zerg events where enemies are scaled up so high that can pracically one shot me, I can go out of their general attack range and keep contributing.

    After playing Gw2 for many years now I've come to hold the opinion that pure melee builds for solo play are just not that good imo unless you're running a build that is designed to take a lot of punishment and has the ability to sustain itself through said punishment.

    For the most part I prefer ranged builds when it comes to raw damage, even though that can't achieve the same level of DPS as a glass canon melee zerker type character, their survivability is significantly higher just by being out of the enemy's range a lot of the time.
    This can be very nicely complemented by a high damage melee weapon set that you can rush in and use at optimal times, such as when a enemy's breakbar is broken leaving them stunned or when the enemy has turned away from you and you've got a good chance to smack him in the butt :)

    I often find those guys who runs in arms flailing watching those huge melee DPS numbers stacking up are usually the same guys getting downed every few seconds and needing to be revived all the time lol
    Those builds are good and even essential when in group content and you've got a team backing you up, keeping you alive etc.
    But in general PvE against any HP sponge that can tank your DPS.. you're gonna get downed a lot without backup.. and meta events which are just a mass of efects and chaos.. don't count on anyone singling you out among the horde to keep you alive.
    There's a reason we call it boon spam rather than tactical buffing lol

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Don't underestimate the value of a Ranged backup weapon.

    I really used to hate the Warrior class years ago because of the Zerker meta mentality and how squishy I used to find the class because of it.

    I never cared for that playstyle so I switched to something more tanky.
    It helpped but then damage sucked >.<
    These days I like to keep my Warriors a bit more in the middle, able to tank a few hits but still being able to hit fairly hard.
    and the good counter for that is to keep a ranged weapon as my backup (I use Rifle) so in moments of danger I can retreat and heal but still keep applying damage.
    Likewise in huge zerg events where enemies are scaled up so high that can pracically one shot me, I can go out of their general attack range and keep contributing.

    After playing Gw2 for many years now I've come to hold the opinion that pure melee builds for solo play are just not that good imo unless you're running a build that is designed to take a lot of punishment and has the ability to sustain itself through said punishment.

    For the most part I prefer ranged builds when it comes to raw damage, even though that can't achieve the same level of DPS as a glass canon melee zerker type character, their survivability is significantly higher just by being out of the enemy's range a lot of the time.
    This can be very nicely complemented by a high damage melee weapon set that you can rush in and use at optimal times, such as when a enemy's breakbar is broken leaving them stunned or when the enemy has turned away from you and you've got a good chance to smack him in the butt :)

    I often find those guys who runs in arms flailing watching those huge melee DPS numbers stacking up are usually the same guys getting downed every few seconds and needing to be revived all the time lol
    Those builds are good and even essential when in group content and you've got a team backing you up, keeping you alive etc.
    But in general PvE against any HP sponge that can tank your DPS.. you're gonna get downed a lot without backup.. and meta events which are just a mass of efects and chaos.. don't count on anyone singling you out among the horde to keep you alive.
    There's a reason we call it boon spam rather than tactical buffing lol

    Uh ... that is missing some important details.

    Range does not equal safety. For example Megadestroyer's(granted this doesn't matter with a zerg) fireball does not hit up "close"(should be around 600-900units, never got around to measuring it), you can actually tell based on the fireball's arc. Another one is the boss of the volcanic fractal, if you move beyond a certain range threshold it will use its barrage attack against. Being at range will also screw up the fight with the Matriarch in Verdant Brink. Similar issues with Mai Trin, Archdiviner, and Molten Berserker in fractal. Also possible but extremely unlikely with Patriarch(you have to have aggro then move beyond 1200 range).

    More generally anything with a movement attack since they can be pulled beyond their leash range which will cause them to start regenerating their health.

    Then there is the issue with bounties certain unstable magic abilities such as expoilter.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Don't underestimate the value of a Ranged backup weapon.

    I really used to hate the Warrior class years ago because of the Zerker meta mentality and how squishy I used to find the class because of it.

    I never cared for that playstyle so I switched to something more tanky.
    It helpped but then damage sucked >.<
    These days I like to keep my Warriors a bit more in the middle, able to tank a few hits but still being able to hit fairly hard.
    and the good counter for that is to keep a ranged weapon as my backup (I use Rifle) so in moments of danger I can retreat and heal but still keep applying damage.
    Likewise in huge zerg events where enemies are scaled up so high that can pracically one shot me, I can go out of their general attack range and keep contributing.

    After playing Gw2 for many years now I've come to hold the opinion that pure melee builds for solo play are just not that good imo unless you're running a build that is designed to take a lot of punishment and has the ability to sustain itself through said punishment.

    For the most part I prefer ranged builds when it comes to raw damage, even though that can't achieve the same level of DPS as a glass canon melee zerker type character, their survivability is significantly higher just by being out of the enemy's range a lot of the time.
    This can be very nicely complemented by a high damage melee weapon set that you can rush in and use at optimal times, such as when a enemy's breakbar is broken leaving them stunned or when the enemy has turned away from you and you've got a good chance to smack him in the butt :)

    I often find those guys who runs in arms flailing watching those huge melee DPS numbers stacking up are usually the same guys getting downed every few seconds and needing to be revived all the time lol
    Those builds are good and even essential when in group content and you've got a team backing you up, keeping you alive etc.
    But in general PvE against any HP sponge that can tank your DPS.. you're gonna get downed a lot without backup.. and meta events which are just a mass of efects and chaos.. don't count on anyone singling you out among the horde to keep you alive.
    There's a reason we call it boon spam rather than tactical buffing lol

    Uh ... that is missing some important details.

    Range does not equal safety. For example Megadestroyer's(granted this doesn't matter with a zerg) fireball does not hit up "close"(should be around 600-900units, never got around to measuring it), you can actually tell based on the fireball's arc. Another one is the boss of the volcanic fractal, if you move beyond a certain range threshold it will use its barrage attack against. Being at range will also screw up the fight with the Matriarch in Verdant Brink. Similar issues with Mai Trin, Archdiviner, and Molten Berserker in fractal. Also possible but extremely unlikely with Patriarch(you have to have aggro then move beyond 1200 range).

    More generally anything with a movement attack since they can be pulled beyond their leash range which will cause them to start regenerating their health.

    Then there is the issue with bounties certain unstable magic abilities such as expoilter.

    It's just general advice for PvE more than anything.
    There's pros and cons to all things even range play but my point was that setting up a character to take advantage of both melee and range is more beneficial in most cases than going exclusive into either of them, at least in PvE.

    Range doesn't equal safety, that is true but it does give you a lot more time to react and see things coming so it's generally safer than being in the enemies face all the time.
    It's far easier to see a nuke attack coming your way and dodge it than it is to see it thrown in your face in melee.
    There are mechanics like exploiter true, but there are also mechanics like Polluter and Phase Shifted, even ley energy buildup which can be punishingly effective against pure melee builds and far less so to ranged playstyles.

    I did mention that those typical DPS meta builds are useful/essential for group based play though so the fractal mechanics pointed out don't really apply to the point I was making.
    The biggest thing to note was what you said regarding pulling enemies out of their leash range.
    That is something people playing ranged do have to watch out for, but it can be quite easily avoided if the player keeps it in mind and knows where those boundries more or less are.