My opinion about raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

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Comments

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    And how so? I am a fast learner, I adapt quickly, and I enjoy a good challenge. I am just sick and tired of having to be "elite" by providing proof of my skill through hours spent in said content. There must be a way for casual raiders to have a place in this type of content as well.

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    2) Amazing, someone complaining that there are offers for training runs in the most challenging PvE content in this game.

    I wasn't complaining about training runs, I was complaining that - if you don't have the "proper" LI and KP - you are forced to always join training runs, which gets boring.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We'll 1 and 2 are side effects of content being considered hard. How do you suggest they fix it?

    Their are runs which do a full clear. Removing the davepoints probably Will increased problem 1.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    And how so?

    Because you don't seem to understand what's fun about them. I'm referring to your point 2.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    As others have said, you absolutely can. Look for a "raid training" guild, or a casual raiding guild, or whatever. They exist, they just don't organize through the LFG system.

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    "Training" raids are the real thing. Do you remember how you learned to dodge things, and how to fight tougher enemies, and that sort of thing, by playing the game? Welp, welcome to exactly what a training raid is all about. Raids demand various knowledge and skills that you learn by doing the raids, and failing, until you and everyone else gets it right.

    It isn't just your skill here, either: it is the ability to work with the group, to execute the group strategy correctly. You can't just run around in the fight and do your own thing, you gotta do the mechanics. A raid can't be completed without that.

    If you feel that it is offensive to your skill, and your intellect, you are welcome to do so, but ... this is not content designed for everyone to casually access from moment zero. It is designed to be a test, among other things, of group and individual skill at that specific raid boss.

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    Their raid design is the raid design from every MMO: group content, demanding of group coordination to succeed.

    GW2 players, like every MMO, also include people who throw up "pick up groups" into LFG, and grab people they expect to be able to clear the content without that coordination being explicit, because they know it well enough already.

    This isn't a raid design problem, it is an expectations problem, and possibly a communication problem.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is no other way to have this content in the game. You WILL have to train for it, because the entire progression, the entire idea behind it is based on actually beating the content. Why should it be easy, why should it be freely accessible. It's like saying because something new comes out you shouldn't be required to learn it because you've managed to play through the game to that point.

    It's a little sad that it's simply how mmo communities work, but if you're relying on pugs and they can't carry their own weight then they don't deserve the clear. It's as simple as that. Half the elitism claims that are made are from players who don't try to learn or improve, or they simply misunderstand the frustration caused by a group that went through a dozen different players who all quit after one wipe, who all had to get a new explanation of how things work, who all didn't show any will to improve.

    Bite me.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    Any suggestions?

  • Stalkingwolf.6035Stalkingwolf.6035 Member ✭✭✭

    LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

    I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster

  • Moogri.1935Moogri.1935 Member ✭✭
    edited June 2, 2018

    Sometimes commanders of lfgs with requirements don't actually check because they have keen senses and a dps meter so they'll be able to tell if a person isn't performing well. If you can't sqeeze into one of those groups and not raise any red flags then maybe you should humble yourself and join a few training runs or just create one yourself.

    And training runs aren't all too bad sometimes. Sometimes experienced raiders join training runs to practice another class or just for fun and carry the group to victory.

    Also training IS part of the fun - experienced players are technically training whenever a new wing is released or doing CM runs. And this goes to show that even the most experienced and best players in the community still need to train due to the challenging group content. I don't think anyone has one shot any raid bosses upon release.

    You say that you're a fast learner, adapt quickly, and enjoy a good challenge, but if you're as good as you say you are, then create your own group and lead them to victory. If more casual raiders did this then there wouldn't be so much of a problem - if there's such a stigma with the word "training", then just make more "casual" lfgs. Put yourself in the shoes of the commander, what will your lfg description be like? Will you put "chill casual run"? Or are you gonna do the same as most commanders out there and put a minimum requirement?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stalkingwolf.6035 said:
    LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

    I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

    There is a thread about that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

    However, that doesn't fix the OP's issues. 1 ("Elitism") &2 ("Training") apply to Fractal CMs as well and Fractals have more than enough difficulty tiers, yet CMs experience the exact same "issues" as Raids. There is "KP request" there and there is also a high need for training there too.

    That's if by LFR you meant an easy mode version of Raids.

  • Stalkingwolf.6035Stalkingwolf.6035 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Stalkingwolf.6035 said:
    LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

    I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

    There is a thread about that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

    However, that doesn't fix the OP's issues. 1 ("Elitism") &2 ("Training") apply to Fractal CMs as well and Fractals have more than enough difficulty tiers, yet CMs experience the exact same "issues" as Raids. There is "KP request" there and there is also a high need for training there too.

    That's if by LFR you meant an easy mode version of Raids.

    LFR was a joke. it destroyed a lot in WoW. 4 difficult modes made more problems then solved something.
    what i meant was that gw2 is great without raiding. other games are raid or die.

    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    oh btw it's not raid design problem, raids are fine, all those artificial gates you talk about are created by other people, good luck with changing people :)

    Ah yes, simple solution, get rid of the people and the problems go away. 🤙

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the raids are not badly designed, they are designed well for a specific audience. Discussions about offering a style of raiding (as well as above) that everyone can consume is ongoing elsewhere.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2018

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

    Which responses showed a toxic raider community?

  • Teamkiller.4315Teamkiller.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

    Which responses showed a toxic raider community?

    The raid community isn't the only toxic entity...it cuts both ways.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    1/ Player community issue and have always been so. It's like zerk meta in the vanilla game.

    2/ To train is to learn. It allow you to be able to cope with more than 1 issue that you might encounter after your "training". Honestly, being trained by seasoned veteran is always valuable since it allow you to follow more than a single tactic. Old dungeons were the same, I personnally was quite accomplished in these dungeon run but I always treasured each new tips that I could gain from fellow dungeon runners. So yes you should treasure this possibility to be "trained" since it mean that there are still players willing to teach.

    3/ A lot of players (in all games) have a life outside the game and often lack time. In time sinking game content like raid, the "save points" usually allow these players to enjoy these raids at their own pace. It's better than to neglect your daugther crying in the night because you are "raiding" for example.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    feelings aren't a factor when people want dedicated players to raid. if you have problem with elitism don't raid then.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    Make your own group, as a commander. All solved.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    1.) People prefer to play with like-minded individuals, on a similar level of experience and skill or above. Allowing others to enforce their unwanted presence on them would be giving in to entitlement and thus be actual bad design.

    2.) Training runs is just a name. You have to practise to be able to get kills but you practise on the real thing. We could call them Real raids with inexperienced players on a similar level to your own which might possibly provide you with the experience and KPs you need to fit into groups you shouldn't currently join if that makes you feel any better about it.

    3) Don't necessarily disagree with you there. However, there were people who came here to complain about the very fact they have to unlock these "Save Points" first each week, that they can't instantly jump to any given boss. There is that.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018

    1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

    2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

    3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

    2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

    3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

    Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

    2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

    3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

    Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

    And how does that help them? Unless they ask to show a mini (That people may not have dropped nor want to buy) or a title (that not every encounter have) there is no reliable KP to be shown that cannot be faked. All they are doing is making it harder for genuine people with low LI to get in raid groups.

    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    Progression raiding is an insane amount of fun.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either.

    Define: Group Building Options

    Do you mean by team composition, or you saying the LFG tool is bad? Cuz if you are talking about the later, I think the LFG do it's job just fine, just there aren't many people looking for pugs to their raids because of how scared of taking new people others are.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

    2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

    3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

    Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

    And how does that help them? Unless they ask to show a mini (That people may not have dropped nor want to buy) or a title (that not every encounter have) there is no reliable KP to be shown that cannot be faked. All they are doing is making it harder for genuine people with low LI to get in raid groups.

    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    Yeah, omegalul all you want but even those squads get players who can't do things and mess up constantly.

    Ofc everything can be faked but you can get caught. Honestly I don't care if you can pull your own weight. You could be the leader of Snowcrows, idc, if you fake things you're out of the squad. An experienced raider who places a high LI lfg wants high LI players, period. If you don't have the requirements you should not join. Have some honesty and fair play.

    There are a lot of people who think like this. I have accepted a 40li chrono in a 250li lfg, because he was honest and polite. But I will never accept a faker.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    In fact, people can and do. Not sure why you couldn't. There are entire discord channels devoted just to this.

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    The entire point to raids is that they are elite content, that, for most people, extra effort is involved.

    3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    This critique contradicts your other points. The longer a raid goes without a "save point," the harder it is for people to join in.

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    As said above, maybe this isn't your sort of content. The game is vast: none of us have to be interested in all of what the game has to offer.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

  • Jojo.6140Jojo.6140 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    I dont understand why you would consider 150-200 LI a high amount? The max LI you can have is well over 1.4k already afaik, and you can get much more LI per week now that we already have 5 wings. A 150 LI requirement just shows that you are already doing raids for a few months.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • MashMash.1645MashMash.1645 Member ✭✭

    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    I've always wondered what it would be like to go to the mists. It'll be an adventure... - Magister Sieran

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

    Its not a casual game mode. So skill will be required in pug (with imperfect criteria arguably but there are not many alternatives to that). There is no game that this does not happen. Pugs wanting ppl with experience is just that. People want to play with certain kinds if people. Play the way you want and let others play how they want. Toxicity is not a privilege of the elitist only as it seems.

    If you want to start doing raids join a guild, a training guild or a training discord community. They are made by great people and you can learn and have a lot of fun. Socializing is basically the solution to your "problem"

    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    Well it is challenging content. Some skill applies. I never seen a game having raids that are not the most challenging part of PvE and i have seen none that does not require some skill. Learning a game is part of a game after all. Also what do you even mean by the "real experience". Learning the encounter and killing them is the experience. I am not sure what you are expecting to see on the other side. But there is nothing more. The beef of the experience is constant learning and optimizing your play. If you do not like that then raids have nothing more to offer to you and you are barking under the wrong tree.

    3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

    eeh...Exactly because there are save points you can actually jump to a specific boss if you want to. You just search for an opener. How would not having weekly checkpoints help you to go to dhuum faster? I really fail to see the logic there.

    Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

    Not a single point you have made has do to with design though.

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

    You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    No, it wasn't. GW2 was and remains one of the most successful MMOs of this generation (especially when not counting those with pre-existing popular IPs). People still flock to it. The failure was in adding raids to the game, trying to make it something it was not and should never have been.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    But is it working?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turin.6921 said:
    You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

    Ya you know.. because every week a new topic pops up about how us Open World players are such a Toxic community.

    Yup.. we must be the toxic ones.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    But is it working?

    I hardly believe that Raids actually bring much income for Anet, the devs thenselfs allready said that only a small part of the community do Raids...GW2 and raids were never supposed to be a thing, dungeons "failed" cause Anet stopped spending resources on it, till they gutted the rewards from it, even with allmost zero updates, Dungeons were going strong, from try hards etilists to casuals "everyone welcome" runs were done all the time...now its allmost a ghost town, i had to solo most of them on my new characters and ask my guild to join me if I wanted to complete all paths...the only complain people had about dungeons was that they were to "easy"....how something that stayed the same for years aint gonna become easy? Had full legendary gears raiders wipe time after time to the point of rage quit on TA lol, why they were dying? They had forgotten the encouter and didnt knew the machanics anymore...take any of these new players to do AC path 1 and they probably wont pass the Spider Queen lol

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    I think Anet makes money off of mount skins, not sure how they make money on raids.

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