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How would you redesign the engineer?


Lonami.2987

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@"Goldthunder.1264" said:Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

AFAIK Supply Crate always spawns the same: a healing Turret, a Flame Turret and a Net Turret.Its quite a meh skill. The best it offers is the stun, IMO.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Supply_Crate

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Here is how I would rework the Engineer:Firstly, the kits would need some power increases, and a more defined role. Each one would serve a purpose and be used in certain builds.Secondly, the trait lines. Some trait lines are great in defining what kind of builds can come out of it, based on 2-3 different directions (example direct burst damage or sustained damage in Explosives), however most of them are not. If I am not mistaken, Engineer was mostly supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades profession. So each trait line needs to have powerful traits and trait synergies to better reflect this concept. Right now for example, inventions and alchemy are really hard to determine where they belong in terms of roles. Both trait lines offer some physical defense, and condi removal, but not enough of one or the other. (ideas coming soon as to how this would be done later in my other post, Core/Scrapper Trait Changes)Third, offer viable ranged choices for the Engineer. As it stands, although Engineer has a rifle and pistols, most of the attacks want you in rather close to deal damage. Engineer, recently, was introduced to two more close range options. Ranged options are not too viable atm and need to be addressed to help bring some possible builds into light and fruition.

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  • 2 months later...

@"Goldthunder.1264" said:Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

The change would go like this:

  • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
  • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
  • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
  • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
  • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:

  • Machine Gun Turret: Direct damage.
  • Flame Turret: Burning condition damage.
  • Elixir Turret: Healing and poison condition damage.
  • Rocket Turret: Large area of effect damage.
  • Net/Mortar Turret: Crowd control and area of effect damage.

What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.

  • Scrapper: The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
  • Holosmith: The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
  • Shocktrooper: Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
  • Technopriest: Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
  • Golemancer: Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

@Ghos.1326 said:Here is how I would rework the Engineer:Firstly, the kits would need some power increases, and a more defined role. Each one would serve a purpose and be used in certain builds.Secondly, the trait lines. Some trait lines are great in defining what kind of builds can come out of it, based on 2-3 different directions (example direct burst damage or sustained damage in Explosives), however most of them are not. If I am not mistaken, Engineer was mostly supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades profession. So each trait line needs to have powerful traits and trait synergies to better reflect this concept. Right now for example, inventions and alchemy are really hard to determine where they belong in terms of roles. Both trait lines offer some physical defense, and condi removal, but not enough of one or the other. (ideas coming soon as to how this would be done later in my other post, Core/Scrapper Trait Changes)Third, offer viable ranged choices for the Engineer. As it stands, although Engineer has a rifle and pistols, most of the attacks want you in rather close to deal damage. Engineer, recently, was introduced to two more close range options. Ranged options are not too viable atm and need to be addressed to help bring some possible builds into light and fruition.

I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

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@Lonami.2987 said:I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

Isn't that basically a revenant?

I wish they would make a seperate trait line for kits. I would redesign the targetted turrets so you could deploy them and then enter and use them. Like a stationary kit that gives you addional armor and can be aimed.

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IMO, one kit per traitline is good.You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

Alchemy -> Elixir Gun KitFirearms -> Flamethrower KitTools -> Tool KitInventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

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@"Ardid.7203" said:IMO, one kit per traitline is good.You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

Alchemy -> Elixir Gun KitFirearms -> Flamethrower KitTools -> Tool KitInventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

wasn't toolkit supposed to be the "turret"-kit?

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It has a very weak relation: the repair thing. IMO it could be kept or not, IMO toolkit doesn't need turrets to shine, and turrets should be able to act in a more independent way. Also I forgot the Med Kit, which should match better with Inventions, so maybe the turrets can become a "core" specific kit?I don't know.

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I talk about the changes I would like to see in my post Kits Should Be a Class Mechanic.

Basically, I agree with you that Tool Belt is not well designed to be a proper profession mechanic and kits offer a much more unique and defined profession theme. However, I don't think Tool Belt is bad, and I think losing it altogether would strip the class of some of its identity. I proposed that the healing and elite Tool Belt skills can be removed and be replaced with selectable kit slots binded to F4 and F5. You are not losing much when removing the healing and elite Tool Belt skills and you gain some freedom by not restricting utility slots with kits.

Elite specs would gain their own unchangeable kit in the F5 slot and core engi would have the benefit of running two core kits instead of only one, allowing for unique core builds that the elite specs cannot replicate. Scrapper would get its own kit that controls the function gyro and gives it useful skills with visible cooldowns.

@Ardid.7203 said:IMO, one kit per traitline is good.You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

Alchemy -> Elixir Gun KitFirearms -> Flamethrower KitTools -> Tool KitInventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

If kits were made a class mechanic I believe there should be a central traitline for generalized kit traits, namely Tools, and a handful of kit specific traits like you laid out. With the exception that tool kit belongs in inventions. This would follow the profession structure that every other class follows.

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I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

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That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

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1) Turn kits into equipable items that take up a weapon slot.

2) Give weapon swapping.

Access to no more than two kits at a time means kit skills/traits can be buffed or made more interesting without ruining class balance. No more overly lame rotations.

3) Combine grenade and bomb kit into one explosives kit. There should be at least one aoe knockback detonate skill here.

4) Get rid of turret detonate skills.

5) Give turrets two modes: stationary and provides area buff/debuff, or follow and no buff/debuff. Stationary mode should be a ground targeting skill.

6) Make all toolbelt skills so they can be used during other skills without interrupting them.

7) Some trait or traits that make condi weapons/kits good with power builds and power weapons/kits good with condi builds.

8) Golemancer.

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As a start I on core engi I would streamline the different kits into their roles more aggressively. By this i mean that kits should do what they say on the tin very well, and not much else.

bombs for powerflamer for condielixir for boonsgrenade for cc / controlhealkit for healing

toolkit should be reworked into a kind of summoner's kit, building constructs and supporting them with the kit.

mortar should offer AOE with no cooldown but long cast times for each of the above ideas, for instance 1 is power based shell, 2 is condi based, 3 gives boons, etc. etc.

As it stands, I find some kits lacking in output. They can do their job, but not well enough in my opinion. When using flamethrower I find I just cant push out burn stacks like you might expect it to compete with weaver or firebrand. It's a flamethrower for gosh darn sake.

Using this as a foundation, I would then make other utility skills help synergise with these kits. elixirs synergizing with flame, healkit and elixir gun, turrets with toolkit, flame and grenade, gadgets with grenade and bombs, anything that can be come up with really, it doesnt matter too much, just so long as the choices are there. The foundation of core engi is the kits and are what make engi attractive in my opinion.

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  • Flamethrower should have better power/condi scaling. Flamethrower should be close range power/burning condi weapon. Smoke Vent should create mobile Smoke Field that pulses Blind and Burning.
  • Rifle should be redesigned into heavy power close range AoE weapon like a shotgun with some CC.
  • Pistols should stay as they are as 900meters condi option.
  • Grenades should stay as additional condi option. Range should be increased from 900 to 1200. Grenadier trait should be baseline. New trait that reduces grenades CD and somehow improves them should be implemented.
  • Bomb Kit should be completely redesigned into Rocket Launcher Kit. Rocket Launcher is a 1200 range Power weapon option. A lot of AoE damage, but uses common targeting instead of ground targeting.
  • Elixirgun Kit should stay as supportive condi/utility weapon.
  • Toolkit should be melee condi/CC weapon.
  • Holosmith and Scrapper weapon should provide another power melee option as they do now.

This will provide better options for both Condi and Power engineer and provide both versions with option to have both close range and long range options without regular weapon swap and without relying to much on elite specs.

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Make all weapons have an "alternate fire" mode, basically an elementalist attunement. This lets Engineer weapons achieve multiple fantasies, like say, having both a Shotgun and Railgun mode on the Rifle. This helps cover up some of the Engineer's baseline deficiencies.

Make all kits have more definied niches. There should be one clear "Power" kit and one clear "Condition" kit. There should also be a "Support" kit which focuses on boons.

Make each traitline have a clear focus as well as effective build paths in regards to PvE

Explosives: Focuses on Power damage and Offensive support through massive Might + Vulnerability stacking.-Explosives has a clear path that boosts Power damage at all levels-Engineer with the right traits should be able to maintain both 25 Might stacks and decent uptime on 15+ Vulnerability stacks.

Firearms: Focuses on Criticals and Condition damage. Mostly selfish traitline for Core engineer.-The most effective build for PvE damage should be the same for both Condition and Power damage. This allows for more design space for other traits.-Firearms should allow Engineer to stack Fury in a group

Alchemy: Focuses on Boons, Conditions clearing, and Tanking.-Alchemy should allow Elixirs to affect allies and grant Engineer the ability to grant most boons to the party.-Alchemy should allow Engineers to completely maintain certain boons depending on which other traitlines have been picked.-Alchemy should grant some modicum of condition clearing.

Inventions: Focus on Healing and Protection + Aegis-Inventions should allow full uptime on Regeneration and Protection in a group.-Inventions should be a healing specialist.

Tools: Focus on Quickness, Damage, and Endurance.-Tools should allow the Engineer to stack Quickness and Vigor in a group.-Tools should have decent damage output as the third Core Engineer damage traitline.

Scrapper: Focus on Barriers and Stability.-Scrapper should give the tools to maintain Stability in a raid.-Scrapper + Inventions should be an amazing healbot that reaches Water Elementalist levels of throughput with a combination of barriers and heals.

Holosmith: Focus on Power and Burning damage.-Holosmith should bring more sources of Burn damage, allowing for burn centric builds and Grieving builds that utilize only burn damage in conjunction with Power damage, allowing for 0 Expertise, 100% burn duration setups.

Engineers should be able to fit like a puzzle piece into almost any group setup with the right traitline.

Turrets now have a set duration after which they automatically detonate. Turret Overcharges are now casted by the Engineer with appropriately powerful effects.Rocket Turret replaced by a Barrier Generator turret.

Gadgets now have a new gimmick. All Gadget abilities and their corresponding toolbelt abilities can be "Overclocked" while on cooldown and the corresponding ability is not. Overclocking will put a corresponding ability on the original's cooldown + 20%. Gadget abilities and their toolbelts can now provide different niche effects, are also much more powerful and fit more in line with the Tools traitline:

Rocket Boots: Breaks stun and evades during the animation. Only one charge.->Rocket Kick: Flying dropkick which evades during the animation, dealing massive damage and burn.

Drop Mine: Instantly drop a mine at your feet which removes 3 boons and knocks enemies back after a short arm time. Unblockable and Unevadeable like traps.->Sticky Bomb: Lob a Sticky Bomb which can be redetonated while in flight or on a target to remove 3 boons. Sticky bomb is a long cast that is unblockable, but the detonation is not.

These two abilities need the most change while the others just need some values adjusted.

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@Dace.8173 said:The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

this is every redesign thread, not just engi. from my observation ppl tend to redesign classes around the one aspect they enjoy most (turret engi, minion necro, etc.) the other aspects be damned or homogenize them (turn kits into regular weaponswap)

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"Goldthunder.1264" said:Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

The change would go like this:
  • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
  • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
  • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
  • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
  • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:
  • Machine Gun Turret:
    Direct damage.
  • Flame Turret:
    Burning condition damage.
  • Elixir Turret:
    Healing and poison condition damage.
  • Rocket Turret:
    Large area of effect damage.
  • Net/Mortar Turret:
    Crowd control and area of effect damage.

What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.
  • Scrapper:
    The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
  • Holosmith:
    The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
  • Shocktrooper:
    Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
  • Technopriest:
    Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
  • Golemancer:
    Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

Engineer

  • Core mechanic: Turret (You equip two sets, and swap between them [similar to ranger pets]).
  • Turret options: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, Mortar.
  • Weapons: Mace (MH), Pistol (MH+OH), Scepter (MH), Shield (OH), Torch (OH), Vial (OH), Rifle (2H).
  • Slot skills: Elixir, Gadget, Grenade (Using the ammunition system), Mine (Similar to traps), Signet (Boosts turrets).

Scrapper

  • New mechanic: Swarm (Turrets become gyros, and gain the ability to move).
  • New Turret option: Razor.
  • Weapon: Hammer (2H).
  • Slot skill: Minion (Summons extra swarm units).

Holosmith

  • New mechanic: Mode (Photon Forge, temporarily boosts weapon and turret skills, unlocking holographic alternate abilities [similar to elementalist attunements]).
  • New Turret option: Shield.
  • Weapon: Sword (MH).
  • Slot skill: Glyph (Different effect depending on Photon Forge status).

Shocktrooper

  • New mechanic: Transformation (Kit equipment based on the active turret type).
  • New Turret option: Thumper (Power Fists as the kit equivalent).
  • Weapon: Dagger (MH+OH).
  • Slot skill: Physical.

Technopriest

  • New mechanic: Advanced Turret (You can now polarize turrets, unlocking additional abilities for them)
  • New Turret option: Shock (pulls nearby enemies, and pushes them away when polarized)
  • Weapon: Scythe (2H).
  • Slot skill: Mantra.

Occultist

  • New mechanic: Artifact (Turrets become demonic rifts [similar to scourge shades], and can no longer be attacked)
  • New Turret option: Siphon (steals life from nearby enemies).
  • Weapon: Staff (2H).
  • Slot skill: Shout (Screams, replicate at the point of each rift)

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

Isn't that basically a revenant?

And a ranger, with two pets at once, not more, not less.

Generally speaking, I believe every profession would benefit from a binary mechanic customization.

@Tehologist.5841 said:I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

Good tool belt skills can be saved and converted into slot skills, as new skills or chain effects for existing ones.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

Yup, there's lots of useless skills, because there's way too many skills at once, and they can't balance them properly.

Reduce the number of skills, and you can make kits more powerful.

@Dace.8173 said:The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

That's what redesigns are about.

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@Lonami.2987 said:

@"Goldthunder.1264" said:Honestly, if I had to narrow down at least one thing I'd change with the base Engineer, I'd at least give them a trait that lets them drop turrets with a ground target instead of always having to drop them right at their feet. As of now, the only thing remotely similar to this is Supply Drop, and that's an Elite Skill that drops a bunch of random turrets that you can't even pick up to shorten the cooldown. Not to mention that unlike your normal turrets, they have a time limit before they disappear. So not only do you have to pray that it drops the turrets you want, but you have to blow them all up so they aren't aggro-ing random kitten once you leave, or they'll time out before you kill the boss, resulting in both a dps loss and the realization that you just blew your Elite Skill on something that kitten you over hard with RNG, and is not even all that helpful to begin with.So yeah, I definitely want to see Arena Net either rework a trait or add one that lets you ground target cast your turrets.

Actually, this is just something I've noticed, so I'm not sure if this happens for every Engineer, but I swear everytime I use Supply Drop, it always drops a Healing Turret. And I mean it when I say, EVERY time, it's like the only turret that's almost guaranteed for it to drop. Maybe it's in the little ability description, but has this happened to anyone else?

I wouldn't even make it trait-based, I would make that be the default thing. That simple change would make turrets so much more better than now.

Alternatively, they could take turrets away from the core profession, and turn them into an elite specialization, but they're so ingrained I'm not sure if people would be too happy about the change. I'm kinda biased because I love kits and I want those to stay as the profession mechanic, but turrets aren't far from an ideal core profession mechanic either.

The change would go like this:
  • Remove the tool belt. Replace it with a turret control panel.
  • You have 5 turret sets, and you have to pick 2. You can then swap between them.
  • These new turrets are more technologically advanced, and can repurpose themselves. When you swap the turret set, the existing turrets just swap their own weapons, and you don't need to manually replace them.
  • Remove turret slot skills. Replace them with turret boosts for the new turret mechanic. Signets could work well, providing the passive/active gameplay.
  • Remove device and weapon kits. Replace them with two new slot skill families: grenades and mines.

Turrets are placed using mechanic skill F1, much like scourge shades. The maximum number of deployed turrets is 3. You swap your turret set using F5. Each of the 5 turret sets would have different abilities, located at mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4. The turret sets are:
  • Machine Gun Turret:
    Direct damage.
  • Flame Turret:
    Burning condition damage.
  • Elixir Turret:
    Healing and poison condition damage.
  • Rocket Turret:
    Large area of effect damage.
  • Net/Mortar Turret:
    Crowd control and area of effect damage.

What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as my last version. Additionally, each elite specialization includes a new exclusive turret role, much like revenant includes new legends.
  • Scrapper:
    The turrets become gyros, gaining the ability to fly and move instead of being locked to the ground. Maximum of 6 deployed at once, and same roles as above. New turret role: Razor (melee cleaving).
  • Holosmith:
    The new mechanic is the Photon Forge. Upon activation, your current weapons are upgraded into holographic versions with alternate weapon skills. Your turrets are affected by this boost too, gaining new abilities as well. New turret role: Shield (support and defense).
  • Shocktrooper:
    Turrets are gone, replaced by 5 kits using the same roles above. You equip 2 kits in mechanic slots F1 and F2. The kits are: Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, and Energy Cannon. No new turret role.
  • Technopriest:
    Turrets can now be polarized by using the F6 mechanic skills, inverting their effects. For example, the flame turret can be turned into a frost turret. New turret role: Shock/Magnetic (electricity and ranged crowd control, attracts/repels depending on polarization).
  • Golemancer:
    Your turrets can now merge, becoming a golem pet with the same role as the active turret set. The golem has different tiers depending on how many turrets were merged, increasing in size and power with each. Damage dealt to the golem can break its equipment, downgrading its tier. New turret role: Thumper (melee crowd control).

I'm liking this way too much. I might end up replacing my previous "kits as the core mechanic" idea, as long as I can update the other now-conflicting mechanics of the other 8 professions, since I already gave mesmer a similar turret-like role. I'll probably look at moving kits as a core mechanic to thief, and then look for something new for mesmer.

Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

Engineer
  • Core mechanic:
    Turret (You equip two sets, and swap between them [similar to ranger pets]).
  • Turret options:
    Machine Gun, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Rocket Launcher, Mortar.
  • Weapons:
    Mace (MH), Pistol (MH+OH), Scepter (MH), Shield (OH), Torch (OH), Vial (OH), Rifle (2H).
  • Slot skills:
    Elixir, Gadget, Grenade (Using the ammunition system), Mine (Similar to traps), Signet (Boosts turrets).

Scrapper
  • New mechanic:
    Swarm (Turrets become gyros, and gain the ability to move).
  • New Turret option:
    Razor.
  • Weapon:
    Hammer (2H).
  • Slot skill:
    Minion (Summons extra swarm units).

Holosmith
  • New mechanic:
    Mode (Photon Forge, temporarily boosts weapon and turret skills, unlocking holographic alternate abilities [similar to elementalist attunements]).
  • New Turret option:
    Shield.
  • Weapon:
    Sword (MH).
  • Slot skill:
    Glyph (Different effect depending on Photon Forge status).

Shocktrooper
  • New mechanic:
    Transformation (Kit equipment based on the active turret type).
  • New Turret option:
    Thumper (Power Fists as the kit equivalent).
  • Weapon:
    Dagger (MH+OH).
  • Slot skill:
    Physical.

Technopriest
  • New mechanic:
    Advanced Turret (You can now polarize turrets, unlocking additional abilities for them)
  • New Turret option:
    Shock (pulls nearby enemies, and pushes them away when polarized)
  • Weapon:
    Scythe (2H).
  • Slot skill:
    Mantra.

Occultist
  • New mechanic:
    Artifact (Turrets become demonic rifts [similar to scourge shades], and can no longer be attacked)
  • New Turret option:
    Siphon (steals life from nearby enemies).
  • Weapon:
    Staff (2H).
  • Slot skill:
    Shout (Screams, replicate at the point of each rift)

@Lonami.2987 said:I don't think kits will be any good until they give them a limit. Right now, you can carry either 0 or 5 kits at once, and that's balance hell. That's why they should become mechanic skills, rather than slot skills, so every single engineer has always 2 kits, not more, not less. Then you can start balancing properly, and add weapon swap too.

Isn't that basically a revenant?

And a ranger, with two pets at once, not more, not less.

Generally speaking, I believe every profession would benefit from a binary mechanic customization.

@Tehologist.5841 said:I love tool belt skils. It is great that every skill we take also adds a tool belt, including kits. I would not want to change this. I think the best way to balance core, would be to make a trait line only core engineer could take and place all kit traits beneath that. Elites could still use kits just not as optimally as core engineer can.

Good tool belt skills can be saved and converted into slot skills, as new skills or chain effects for existing ones.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:That would just be another elite specialization. I believe any changes to core engineer should follow the basic class structure to minimize the amount of redesign required. Tools already fits the role as the class mechanic specialization.

I agree losing kit tool belt skills kinda suck, but the benefit from freeing up utility slots outweighs this. For instance, losing Healing mists means you lose a break stun, but that can easily be compensated for by taking another break stun like thumper turret.

Other toolbelt skills could and should be added to the kit weapon skills. Skills like Grenade Barrage, Big Ol' Bomb, and Orbital Command could replace the weaker skills in the kit and take up the 5th slot as the strongest skill in the kit. This would buff these kits to compensate for the 2 kit limit.

Yup, there's lots of useless skills, because there's way too many skills at once, and they can't balance them properly.

Reduce the number of skills, and you can make kits more powerful.

@Dace.8173 said:The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

That's what redesigns are about.

No no no, I get the concept of a redesign. I was just express my belief that most of the redesigns really aren't for the better. A lot of them seem to pick one or two elements that they really really like and then that's about it. Or they pull in elements from other professions they think are cool and slap it onto the Engineer. And I get it, some folks would rather be playing a different profession entirely, but I don't really see most of these redesigns as being better than what we have now. They are different, to be sure, but not better and I imagine after 6 years they would be just as problematic as current Engineer seems to be for some folks.

Then again, why bother playing Engineer, or anything else really as a lot of professions get redesigned, if you would rather be playing something entirely different?

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@derd.6413 said:

@Dace.8173 said:The more I read threads like these the more I'm convinced that if most folks had their way Engineer would be a completely different profession, and not necessarily for the better.

this is every redesign thread, not just engi. from my observation ppl tend to redesign classes around the one aspect they enjoy most (turret engi, minion necro, etc.) the other aspects be damned or homogenize them (turn kits into regular weaponswap)

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@Lonami.2987 said:[...]Refining the previous idea. The tool belt disappears, as do the kit and turret slot skills. Weapon swap is enabled.

Engineer

  • Core mechanic: Turret[...]

this sure gave me a giggle m8

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