Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles.

This isn't about different developer teams, that need to work together on a project, but more like the exact same developer team, working inside the same room.It's like telling a member of the same team to "suck it up" and work harder to compensate for the lack of skill or laziness of their co-workers. While being paid the same.I can see a lot of issues with that.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles.

This isn't about different developer teams, that need to work together on a project, but more like the exact same developer team, working inside the same room.It's like telling a member of the same team to "suck it up" and work harder to compensate for the lack of skill or laziness of their co-workers. While being paid the same.I can see a lot of issues with that.

well that's life and reality, developers in the same room do not in fact have the same skills, that's not how the profession works (e.g someone has high cognitive ability and may gravitate towards algorithms, someone else has a highly logical thought processes and may enjoy componentization and design patterns etc etc. Anyway, it was merely an example of a social grouping, so release the strawman. ps, telling someone else to 'suck it up' is a tell that they are inexperienced working in a group, and developers in a project group rarely get paid the same :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:and developers in a project group rarely get paid the same :)

Which is why your example was flawed. Unless I'm mistaken all players in a group in Fractals, Raids, or any other content get the exact same rewards, RNGseus willing.

It's like having 2 people peeling potatoes, 1 can peel 100 while the other one can peel 200 potatoes in the same time frame. For some obscure reason management never bothered to check why there is such a huge difference between the two, and at the same time give them the same salary.Now the restaurant they are working at needs 400 potatoes peeled, that's 100 more than they produce at this point. What would they do?A) Hire more people, this isn't practical in instances because there is a limitB1) Tell the guy that is already over-performing at 200 potatoes to "try more" to compensate for their lazy/less skillful colleagueB2) Do B, but also give him extra salary as a bonus for his compensation, this isn't going to work in our example, you won't get more if you compensate for othersC) Tell the guy that is not performing very well to get pointers from the other guy on how to improve, how hard can peeling potatoes even be?

I'd choose C as the more fair and ethical solution, given how A and B2 aren't an option for us. B1 is probably the worst possible solution that only some absolute garbage employers would go for.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is MY free time, it is MY decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried. It. Is. My. Decision.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@vesica tempestas.1563 100% agree with you

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is

MY

free time, it is

MY

decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried.

It. Is. My. Decision.

No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is

MY

free time, it is

MY

decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried.

It. Is. My. Decision.

No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I am adapting. Whenever I find a conflict in expectations, I walk away and find players who want the same as me.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is

MY

free time, it is

MY

decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried.

It. Is. My. Decision.

No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I am adapting. Whenever I find a conflict in expectations, I walk away and find players who want the same as me.

That's not adapting, thats not being able to commit and stropping off and leaving 4 other people in the lurch. In fact it demonstrates an inability to adapt.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its

current

ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

to summarise:

1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt

2. Don’t take things personally3.) Look for the good.4.) Seek first to understand.5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is

MY

free time, it is

MY

decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried.

It. Is. My. Decision.

No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I am adapting. Whenever I find a conflict in expectations, I walk away and find players who want the same as me.

That's not adapting, thats not being able to commit and stropping off and leaving 4 other people in the lurch. In fact it demonstrates an inability to adapt.

See, the wishes of those 4 other people are less important than mine, to me. It is only normal - again, it is my free time. I decide what to do with it. My friends and family can have a say in this, because I choose so. Random players on the Internet? Sorry, no. It's not only the most sensible decision, it's also best for anyone. There are lots of players around. Just like I can find a group that suits me better, they can find a player who suits them better. It's a win-win.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

im not demanding anything, i'm saying all 5 have equal rights, so be part of the group, oir be selfish, your choice.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

What you said:First that some of the players:

they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasurebut some of them need to adapt and carry the others:and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness

Even if compensating is against their "own objectives and perspective on pleasure"So basically you want some of the players to be the "automatons" and compensate for the others, disregarding completely their own objective and perspective.Which one is more important and who decides?

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

What you said:First that some of the players:

they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasurebut some of them need to adapt and carry the others:and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness

Even if compensating is against their "own objectives and perspective on pleasure"So basically you want some of the players to be the "automatons" and compensate for the others, disregarding completely their own objective and perspective.Which one is more important and who decides?

5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

The selfish one is the one that joined a group when he shouldn'tIf it reaches a point when someone needs to leave the group, it's not their fault but of some selfish person who joined the group with the intention of getting carried.Usually by not being honest but selfish and greedy.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

The selfish one is the one that joined when he shouldn'tIf it reaches a point when someone needs to leave the group, it's not their fault but of some selfish person who joined the group with the intention of getting carried.Usually by not being honest but selfish and greedy.

now your referring to anecdote.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

im not demanding anything, i'm saying all 5 have equal rights, so be part of the group, oir be selfish, your choice.

It's not being selfish. It's wanting to have fun - exactly what the others want. Rather than stay and spoil either my own or their experience, I choose to leave. It's better for everyone.

[Bladestrom.6425]

very convenient to be sure.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:very convenient to be sure.

Do you know what the word "selfish" mean?"(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."Joining a group with the expectation of being carried and expecting them to compensate for you is the very definition of the word selfish.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:very convenient to be sure.

Do you know what the word "selfish" mean?"(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."Joining a group with the expectation of being carried and expecting them to compensate for you is the very definition of the word selfish.

get over yourself, players is general do not join groups to be 'carried' and that has nothing to do with the original scenario and is a strawman (i left because of other bad behaviour)

walking away is rude if the group didn't wanted you to leave. In any case my original point was about being a team player, either do or dont, but at least be a man and own your decision instead of blaming others.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:get over yourself, players is general do not join groups to be 'carried' and that has nothing to do with the original scenario and is a strawman (i left because of other bad behaviour)You mean this as the "original scenario":quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group

If the group doesn't satisfy my personal needs it means some of the players joined a group that they did not belong to, the leader made false advertising on the LFG tool or both. In that situation a player has every right to leave the group to find another one that fits their own personal needs and is actually honest. Honesty is important.If the group satisfies my personal needs and all goes well, there is no reason to be discussing this in the first place.

walking away is rude if the group didn't wanted you to leave.That's true, provided there was no reason to run away. Not fitting my personal needs is a perfect reason to run away though. If they want to take advantage of me, I leave.

Btw the word you are looking for is Altruism

disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.But that's not something you can force on others.