Bloodlust or force, PvE roaming/MetaEvents — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Bloodlust or force, PvE roaming/MetaEvents

aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

Which is better for like dragon stand etc?

Comments

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2018

    Yay, finally we can use the calculator:
    First we need to set parameters:

    • Assuming 50% crit chance we use 2 hits (first one crits, second don't)
    • Standard zerker armor (PvE amulet, 1200 power/900 precision/ 900 ferocity).
    • Enemy hit has ascended armor (equals 2271 defense, closest to PvE mobs as they usually have higher armor values)
    • We hit with an ascended sword, which has a damage midpoint of 1000
    • We use thief's Backstab coefficient (2.4)

    Superior Sigil of Bloodlust (25 stacks):
    First hit (crit) = 5437 dmg
    Second hit (non crit) = 2589 dmg
    Total damage = 8026

    Superior Sigil of Force:
    First hit (crit) = 5127 dmg
    Second hit (non crit) = 2441 dmg
    Total damage = 7568

    As you can see every hit benefits more from Bloodlust than Force. This is because power adds to the damage before divided by armor value, and extra modifiers after. This means the lower the armor value the better use that +5% dmg gets (mind you armor is very high in PvE usually). The difference of damage in the case above is 5,7%, so it's not that massive unless compounded.

    More importantly, the Bloodlust Sigil only benefits under certain conditions (gain stack on kill, stacks removed on down/map change), while Force sigils always give you that +5% benefit. It equals to about 11 permanent stacks of bloodlust (found by playing with different power values). So if you keep it above that it will outperform the Force sigil. Another important thing to bear in mind is crit rate, because as you can see the scaling for critical hits improves with Bloodlust Sigil, so the more you crit the more effective it will be compared to the constant +5% that Sigil of Force gives. Let me show you the math:

    10 stacks of Bloodlust:
    First hit (no stacks, crit) = 4882 dmg
    Second hit (10 stacks, crit) = 5104 dmg
    Improvement = 4,35%

    20 stacks of Bloodlust:
    First hit (no stacks, crit) = 4882 dmg
    Second hit (20 stacks, crit) = 5326 dmg
    Improvement: 8,44%

    The Sigil of Force +5% will ALWAYS stay the same, and your crit chance won't yield any additional benefit as the improvent will be a direct function of your power stat.

    In conclusion:
    Superior Sigil of Bloodlust starts to outperform Superior Sigil of Force incrementally when at 11 stacks or higher. Which to use depends on a few factors:

    • How often will you go down?
    • How often will you switch maps?
    • Can you kill many mobs in a short amount of time?
    • Is it PvE mobs (+1 stack) or players (+5 stacks)?
      Think of it as the Superior Sigil of Force is the "safe bet" that always give you that 11 stack benefit, while the Superior Sigil of Bloodlust can potentially be over twice as useful but comes with a much greater risk, because if you lose your stacks you will underperform for a while.

    (Pro tip for those who don't know - if you use a stacking sigil on your terrestrial weaponset make sure to add the EXACT same to your underwater set (same set), as this prevents you from losing the stacks going underwater)

    Hope this helps a little ^^

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    I’m impressed thank you for your Einstein analysis haha ty

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aimz.6287 said:
    I’m impressed thank you for your Einstein analysis haha ty

    Haha no worries mate, love getting a chance to dive down deep into the game mechanics :) Plus doing the math for some hard answers on controversial subjects, like this one ^^

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aimz.6287 provided some awesome math there (big thanks!), but his answer isn't quite correct as to the OP's question, and here is why:

    The question shouldn't be which is better, Bloodlust or Force, because the actual answer is: use both.

    As a general best practice, it's recommended that you run Bloodlust on a secondary weapon that you can use to build BL stacks on trash mobs, so when you face a boss / switch to your primary weapon, you end up with +5% damage + 25 stacks of BL, and get the best of both worlds.

    Example, on my Daredevil my Staff runs +7 Crit / + 5% Damage, and on my SB +7 Crit / BL. On a fight like Dragon Stand, it's very easy to build 25 stacks with my SB on the waves of trash, and when I hit the boss, I get both damage buffs on my primary weapon.

    If you switch maps to get to a boss, or get downed in the boss fight, then there is no way to rebuild BL stacks if that is what you have on your primary weapon.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    @aimz.6287 provided some awesome math there (big thanks!), but his answer isn't quite correct as to the OP's question, and here is why:

    The question shouldn't be which is better, Bloodlust or Force, because the actual answer is: use both.

    As a general best practice, it's recommended that you run Bloodlust on a secondary weapon that you can use to build BL stacks on trash mobs, so when you face a boss / switch to your primary weapon, you end up with +5% damage + 25 stacks of BL, and get the best of both worlds.

    Example, on my Daredevil my Staff runs +7 Crit / + 5% Damage, and on my SB +7 Crit / BL. On a fight like Dragon Stand, it's very easy to build 25 stacks with my SB on the waves of trash, and when I hit the boss, I get both damage buffs on my primary weapon.

    If you switch maps to get to a boss, or get downed in the boss fight, then there is no way to rebuild BL stacks if that is what you have on your primary weapon.

    You're absolutely right. For pure dps classes the meta is stacking as many modifiers on top of power, precison, ferocity in that order, to maximize the amount of damage dealt. Using your method you ensure to always be most efficient even when circumstance interrupts. This is why f.ex the Superior Rune of the Scholar is so highly valued, because it makes no stat sacrifices outside zerker and a top of the line 10% damage modifier. The only other way to achieve more modifiers (power build) is by utilizing traits and skills, sigil of Force and food.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bloodlust only seems to be working in open world.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Bloodlust only seems to be working in open world.

    It works in all modes. Things are just harder to kill outside of open world.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Bloodlust only seems to be working in open world.

    It works in all game modes but it does work differently. You get 5 stacks for killing a player in WvW instead of 1 (I assume the same applies in sPvP), but of course you only get 1 stack for killing NPC guards and the like.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Doesnt work in living story instances for example.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yay, finally we can use the calculator:
    [...]

    To be honest, your calculations are way too complicated for such a simple subject. When crit chance and ferocity stay constant, your power damage just boils down to

    damage increase = ((base power + power gained by buff) / base power ) - 1

    With the average full ascended berserker player at 2400 base power and 250 power gained by bloodlust, that's

    (2650/2400) - 1 = 0.104 = 10.4%. Force is a flat 5% modifier that will never be as strong as full bloodlust stacks, since you cannot realistically obtain 5000 power.

    Oh, and by the way, target armor does not matter when assessing the benefits of bloodlust vs force, since damage calculation in GW2 is just a question of multiplication and division. That means it's irrelevant whether you apply a multiplier before or after armor, the final result will be the same.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Doesnt work in living story instances for example.

    Most story mobs don't grant experience, so a whole load of effects (sigils, traits, etc.) that trigger on kill will not trigger, because those mobs don't count as kills.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yay, finally we can use the calculator:
    [...]

    To be honest, your calculations are way too complicated for such a simple subject. When crit chance and ferocity stay constant, your power damage just boils down to

    damage increase = ((base power + power gained by buff) / base power ) - 1

    With the average full ascended berserker player at 2400 base power and 250 power gained by bloodlust, that's

    (2650/2400) - 1 = 0.104 = 10.4%. Force is a flat 5% modifier that will never be as strong as full bloodlust stacks, since you cannot realistically obtain 5000 power.

    Oh, and by the way, target armor does not matter when assessing the benefits of bloodlust vs force, since damage calculation in GW2 is just a question of multiplication and division. That means it's irrelevant whether you apply a multiplier before or after armor, the final result will be the same.

    Yeah I went over this, that Force equals about 11 stacks of bloodlust and said it could be over twice as effective at max stacks (which you calculated here).

    Not sure where you are going with 5000 power, always stated it was 5%? And again I said full stacks were better.

    In the case of the multiplier being added before or after, you are correct that you can add it to the negative armor modifiers and get a corresponding lower armor value or to power in order to create an artificially high number offset with lower crit. My point still stands though, as you get more use of it (higher 5% dmg total) the lower the original armor value.

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