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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players
didn't
play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually
wanted
to play?Except a lot of people DO like WvW and do get into it because of the Gift of Battle. And the Gift of Battle is a great way to get them into it.

GW2 doesn't need WvW. But if a lot of people like WvW I don't see any harm in giving incentives to people who haven't tried it yet to do so. Like if WvW was literally nothing but a handful of people only working on the Gift of Battle and then never ever entering WvW again I'd agree.

There's a difference though, WvW is required only for a single component. It's not the whole thing, you don't have to play WvW after you get Gift of Battle... You don't have to keep doing the content after you get it (you can if you want to). Raids require you to keep doing the content to get it.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:

No, it's not nonsense. The usual raid rewards don't give any advantage over the ones you can get in the rest of the PvE content. The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.And if a player is so heavily focussed and dedicated to specific rewards that he really thinks "I must have those" (which is within my definition of not being sane irl) he definitely won't care about the route to it and do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

I may have mentioned before that stat changing on ascended items is a pain... In fact it's far more irritating since it involves a trip to the mystic forge and a bunch of other things as well. While just stepping out of combat for a small period to switch stats is pretty easy. I again am still trying to figure out why the Legendary Armor came to raids first when PVE'ers don't really change builds much (Zerker/Condi unless you're playing a Ranger or a Mez) whereas PvP and WvW change constantly based on what's needed. So why it made sense to first hand Legendary Armor to PVE and not to game modes that actually do change stats (plus the ugly skins given to the other groups shows that they were an afterthought and not really considered as "special" as raiders etc).. You get the idea. Changing stats is actually pretty important to those of us who change our builds depending on how many people are on at a given time slot.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

Except that there shouldn't be "the super shiniest of the shinies" for the group of people who rarely change their builds... I mean seriously, and there should be multiple types of armor and there should be multiple ways to get it. Each of the different modes should have a short-term commitment to try the content out but not something that requires you to grind it. Which is precisely what I'm objecting to. I don't want to team with 10 random people in an encounter with a boss that can and has wasted over 4 hours to maybe complete it and then have to do it again over and over. If there were a training mode I might give it a try again, but 4 hours of constantly failing without any idea why? Nope. Not happening.

I would rather go repair a keep or take a tower or defend a camp etc.. I could see having people go in for a component to something like other Legendaries have you do but I don't think you should have to spend the WHOLE TIME in that mode. I could do it for a component and I would do it for a component but for every single piece of armor? No thanks.

And the compounding irritation is that the "coolest skins" go to PVE even though the majority of the builds are stagnant.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:

No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports.

Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids.

I'm guessing you don't do much roaming then? I got better playing WvW and roaming more than anything PVE offered. I learned each of the classes I played had escapes (never touched them in PVE). The skills I learned in PVE did not translate at all to WvW and the skills I learned in WvW aren't working very well in PVE. Sure some of it is fine (knowing how to burn a boss is a bit easier) but many of the mechanics I use daily (Blood Scourge) are just not useful in PVE at all. Memorization of rotations aren't useful when you're in a dynamic fight, you have to know what to do and how to change things when you play in WvW, that just isn't the same in PVE. In PVE it's pretty much "timing, cc, burn" not really much else. Sure there might be added steps but the dynamic pretty much stays true. WvW has a lot more elements and they don't transfer.

Also, I'd argue that "damage output" in a wvw raid isn't always as important as positioning, knowing when to back up and when to push, how to rotate around or split the other group in half etc... Knowing where you should be standing (ie near a firebrand or a scourge or an ele etc) knowing what to blow up and who not to bother to hit in a fight is a nuance that you just don't learn in PVE.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill
would
be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if
you
fail.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:
  • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
  • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
  • you make modifications to your build or change class
  • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
  • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

Playing raids isn't going to turn you into a God of PvP and doing actual PvP will be far better from improving your PvP skills, but just playing the game in areas where you are challenged will do things like improve your ability to move intelligently, zoning damage and AoE, and reaction speed.

Umm... Not really, playing in WvW will fix all of those problems pretty quickly... Big hint: Red circles are bad.

But seriously, I disagree you learn all of those skills from playing WvW much faster because the entire situation is far more fluid than raids and far more unpredictable. I can do a LOT in 4 hours and I learned far more about positioning than I ever learned in PVE content period. Reaction speed, AOE ranges, where to move and zones... All of those I learned faster in WvW than I ever learned in PVE. Playing against other players who were playing the same class also taught me faster than I could ever have learned from any PVE boss ever. I die less often then I did when I started playing WvW, but that doesn't always translate over to PVE. I have different builds and tolerances for class on PVE vs when I play WvW so I'm tankier in WvW than I am in PVE and the burn ratio is different as a result.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill
would
be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if
you
fail.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:
  • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
  • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
  • you make modifications to your build or change class
  • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
  • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

Agreed... I completely agree with you here. The abilities learned in PVE are not transferable to WvW. The build paths in WvW alone make that abundantly clear and then the different skill trees etc. All classes have CC and all of them have to know when to use their heals/escapes etc.. PVE doesn't require you to even touch your escapes in fact most people don't even use them.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:They should have used the base unit that Anet provided to show consistency over the years, as opposed to applying some arbitrary exchange amount applied when the graph was made, as this would make a graph made 6 months prior or 6 months after show different numbers.. real bad way to do statistics.. unless you're trying to push an agenda.

It wasn't an arbitrary amount, it was a conversion between korean won to dollars, a currency that reddit users would more likely understand. Who knows the exchange rate of korean won and how it translates in other currencies? If they used the different exchange rates at the different times then the results of each quarter wouldn't be compatible with each other. Instead, they used the same exchange rate for all quarters, which is the sensible thing to do. You on the other hand complaining about those numbers doesn't make any sense, unless you are pushing an agenda.

** Actually from reading the entire thread it states that they used the currency that was current at the various times in the game. The only thing they did not add into the equation was inflation. The results were accurate based on the timeframe they did not use current exchange rates at all.

And besides that, the difference in the numbers is so insignificant that doesn't even change the outcome so I don't know what you mean by pushing an agenda. The graphs are exactly the same, identical, the percentage losses are identical, it clearly shows that the drop in the game's population was steady and started way before Heart of Thorns (unlike what you claimed).

The graphs were harder on GW1 vs GW2 and it did show a decline after HoT launched, the breakdown was the sales report (NCsoft placed their earnings in it but the part used for the chart was the sales portion). HoT had a -25% (afterwards) and current earnings state that PoF was a huge success (if you calculate in that it was released later and add in what the chart would have for other earnings). Then you add in that there hasn't really been a content drought (unlike before HoT and a bit after it). Patches are more regular etc...

So here is what I think, you run out of arguments, and instead of tackling the problematic logic of yours, claiming that the decline was after the expansion due to challenging content, you resorted in ignoring the clear truth by feigning ignorance and blaming the "data".

I think content was a problem but also "time spent" more solo players are returning to play GW2. PoF allowed Solo players to actually play rather than "holding people up at meta map events" etc... I know that my kids have enjoyed PoF much more than they liked HoT because they can do more things solo and don't have a meta in a map to prevent them from exploring etc. Add in that the mounts make moving a lot faster/more fun and they've played more often. While the evidence is anecdotal my sons who want to play casually actually log in more often, which before they HATED logging in after they completed their initial storyline. They HATED HoT. (My kids play League and twitch games more often then mmo's. They disliked HoT because they found all of the maps annoying, the mini-map was completely useless in trying to figure out where someone was in most of the maps. They found the constant meta annoying especially when they were trying to get map completion and they didn't enjoy repeating the content, they didn't feel like there was any real progression etc). With PoF they have found they can choose to join in a fight or not they have more choices. They can continue completing a map without annoying things getting in the way. There's no one yelling in map at people who are trying to complete one of the Hero Points that the "map meta needs help" etc...

None of this is of course relevant to this discussion but it's something that they've commented on multiple times and I think it was the content in HoT and the way it was "put together" that annoyed a certain group of players more than others. I'm not convinced it was raiding, I was initially interested in raiding but like I said 4 hours of fail and I decided there were better things I could do with my time.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so
horribly terrifyingly offended
by this really simple obvious truth.

Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.

i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.

Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.

look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact.

The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.

I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.

I'd do 10 man content if it wasn't a massive time commitment because getting my family to actually do the content with me is already a decent pain, after they complete 1 part they're "done". They do it to see it but they're not interested in grinding period... In fact it's one of their biggest complaints. They hate grinding. (I'd do it with family only because I'm not really interested in randoms within an instance). If I could get 10 man fractals where I could just grab my casual family members to come play with me. I'd absolutely do it (maybe I could convince them to leave League for an hour or two). But having to commit a ton of time, everyone getting to fail for 4 hours? Nope, not doing it. I'm an adult and I can spend my time doing better things and I have zero interest in playing with randoms in instanced content ever again.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so
horribly terrifyingly offended
by this really simple obvious truth.

Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

Fair enough, EQ was pretty hardcore back in the day.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so
horribly terrifyingly offended
by this really simple obvious truth.

Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

Fair enough, EQ was pretty hardcore back in the day.

Yeah it really was... I forgot how hardcore till I went back during that period. I left about 2 months later and never went back again. Before that I was playing a Necro on EQ as well (was one of the best solo classes because you could kite quite a few mobs, plus feign death to remove the aggro was a major plus). Outside of the mobs that summoned I could take pretty much anything in the game solo and if I was paired with either a monk or a ranger I could kill everything. All they had to do was buff me and I then sit back while I dotted things to death.

I thought that going back to the original EQ would be exciting, but then they brought back all the mechanics I hated so... Yeah I quit and like I said I just never really looked back.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill
would
be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if
you
fail.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:
  • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
  • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
  • you make modifications to your build or change class
  • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
  • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

Playing raids isn't going to turn you into a God of PvP and doing actual PvP will be far better from improving your PvP skills, but just playing the game in areas where you are challenged will do things like improve your ability to move intelligently, zoning damage and AoE, and reaction speed.

Umm... Not really, playing in WvW will fix all of those problems pretty quickly... Big hint: Red circles are bad.

But seriously, I disagree you learn all of those skills from playing WvW much faster because the entire situation is far more fluid than raids and far more unpredictable. I can do a LOT in 4 hours and I learned far more about positioning than I ever learned in PVE content period. Reaction speed, AOE ranges, where to move and zones... All of those I learned faster in WvW than I ever learned in PVE. Playing against other players who were playing the same class also taught me faster than I could ever have learned from any PVE boss ever. I die less often then I did when I started playing WvW, but that doesn't always translate over to PVE. I have different builds and tolerances for class on PVE vs when I play WvW so I'm tankier in WvW than I am in PVE and the burn ratio is different as a result.

Okay.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

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@Sephylon.4938 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

I think the chest piece has enough flair for sure, however I think the individual part, gloves boots legs etc. need an extra bit of umph.

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@Sephylon.4938 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

The chest piece is ok but it could really use a bit more. The rest of the set is rather low key compared.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

I think the chest piece has enough flair for sure, however I think the individual part, gloves boots legs etc. need an extra bit of umph.

Exactly, the entire set needs to look better. One piece does not an armor set make. Plus level 1.5k... You can get a set sooner of course if you want, it's the exotic without flare and then you can wait again till you're level 1k to get the other skin... 29 weeks at 365 skirmish tickets a week or 22 weeks with 365 skirmish tickets a week. Easier to get the first set initially and then save up for the next set... But it would be nice if both sets were nicer looking in general.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring. Seriously though, the set looks exactly like the "Exotic/Ascended" except in combat, at least the Envoy looks differently the whole time.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

Raidsellers doing their job?

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

That's because they were not designed with legendary tier in mind. Ability to change them to legendaries came later, and wasn't planned originally. Completely unlike Envoy, which was designed around it being a legendary armor set from the very beginning, and thus looks accordingly.

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