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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Nafets.1238 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

Raidsellers doing their job?

So since I used plural, could you please point me to raid sellers selling the Sublime Mistforged? Either that, or admit you took my words out of their context on purpose, for the sole reason to snap at something.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

That's because they were not designed with legendary tier in mind. Ability to change them to legendaries came later, and wasn't planned originally. Completely unlike Envoy, which was designed around it being a legendary armor set from the very beginning, and thus looks accordingly.

Exactly, and this is a big problem.. Because (as I've pointed out throughout this thread) PVE rarely if ever changes their stats. They do not need to pop out of combat and immediately change them. They do not need to have 2 or 3 (or more depending on toons) sets of complete ascended armor to change into based on what they are doing at any particular point in the day. Their builds follow a binary build path. Whereas WvW does not.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

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I would just say be careful about how you make raids hard. Wow is a good example of where to learn on what kind of mechanics make things fun and hard and which ones are so punishing that it becomes unfun. Example: raids that are heavy with mechanics where a single person messing up a mechanic wipes the entire raid = not fun.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

Yes, you said it exactly... Condi to Power and back again... But do you by any chance switch from celestial to nomads or to Condi and then back to Celestial etc? No, because you have 2 build paths. WvW has more than that. You can choose bunker builds, burn builds, supportive builds, escape builds, tank builds, stealth builds and hybrids of each of these styles.. All of those builds are viable and used regularly in WvW and depending on the time of day (prime-time vs off-hours) you have to change your build to match what it is you are doing at the time. Literally within hours if a zerg pops up and I am joining the zerg I have to change all of my gear for what is needed in a zerg build vs what is needed for roaming. That includes runes. Which means several complete sets of gear. For me Legendary Armor isn't a "nice thing" it's something that saves me bank slots and inventory slots. PVE players often mock people who playing with Nomads because they literally never have to use the stats. Come hang out a while in WvW and you'll see all sorts of different stats being run by different classes at different times of day.

PVE does 2 builds (unless they are Mes or Ranger). There really isn't much variation other than maximise your DPS for a given task. You don't have to worry about tanking or surviving, or even escaping. That's not even a thing in PVE. Survival in PVE is bursting the other thing down before it bursts you. So again I ask, why does PVE get the "most awesome Legendary gear" when it's build path is binary.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@"Siegy.7092" said:I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do. But hybrid builds or builds like PVT are just a waste and don't bring anything useful to anyone. The only hybrid builds you'll see is, sometimes, condi or power druids (very niche and only used by very experienced groups that don't need a full healing druid, and in low-pressure bosses) or even off-meta builds that few people know like harrier chrono.

When you think about raid builds, you need to think about the needs of the team (you need 25 might, fury, bla bla bla) and who can provide that. You'll make the composition having in mind who will provide every needed thing. It's a group effort, since classes are too unique in what they can bring to the party, specially when we look at support builds.

About the legendary armor, I agree with many ppl here. It's a space saver, yes... but not so much. 6 slots for armor + 1 slot for each set of runes you'll need. That's a lot. But that's not the main problem about legen armor, the real problem is how incredibly tedious would be to swap stats and equip runes. I'd finish faster just by right-clicking the equipment slot and selecting the other piece of armor or trinket I need. That's what I do, although I have enough LIs to craft 3 and a half legendary armors. For me, it's just a new ascended set for each build and a character per build, if I use those builds often enough. Right now I have 3 guardians, 2 druids (one of them has a celestial set for WvW and a viper one for raids), 3 mesmers (minstrel/commander/viper mirage), 2 warriors (power/condi), 1 revenant (with heal/condi/power builds), 2 eles (heal/power), 1 necro (celestial/condi), 1 thief (power), 1 engi (power). Would a legen solve my space problem? Maybe. But it would trade me a space problem for a time problem. I'd rather use ArcDPS build templates, it's so comfortable and fast to change builds if you use that.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards. When I use words like I guess, it means exactly that, I’m guessing. If someone is purely in it for the raids and just the experience of the raids, then what I’m saying is that they do not care about the rewards, because there main focus is the actual raid and the challenge it offers. What you are claiming is that no one does this, which is a pretty bold statement and impossible to prove.

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@nia.4725 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

I have to completely disagree on multiple points. Let's start with visuals:

WvW visuals are way less important than pve.Most hardcore wvw players change their look constantly, especially commanders as to not get focused down by the enemy zerg or squad. Having a special snowflake armor which signals every one on the other side to focus you is highly disadvantageous in a wvw setting. At least if you play this mode dedicated enough to care about efficiency.

Pve visuals it's all about flash. Not needed but basically part of the main pve endgame.Pvp sort of mixes with pve. Be flashy or rather don't be flashy. Catch enemies off guard. If at all spvp deserves a unique skin for their set most of all.

Stat changing should be a factor about who gets legendary armorStrait off the bat, why does spvp get legendary armor? Completely useless for the mode if we go by requirements. Give spvp players exotics and an amazing skin, done. (I'm fine with spvp having access to legendary armor, just for argument sake this would make way more sense)

Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

What does this tell us:Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.Pve is inbetween.

Working as intended.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

Oh, I totally believe you play raids for other primary reasons. After all, I do the same myself. But I'm not buying rewards having absolutely no influence at all. You can claim it, but I don't really see how you can prove it. There's some liquid gold, there are the useful raid currencies, there are the ascended drops and there are the raid skins. You can't just dismiss all this, because it ultimately holds at least some importance in the game. The closest you can get to proving your point is if you consistently cleared raids multiple times every week, since the subsequent clears provide very minimal (but technically - still existent) rewards.

And even then all I'd have to do is add "statistically speaking" in front of "nobody" for my statement to remain valid. :)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

I have to completely disagree on multiple points. Let's start with visuals:

WvW visuals are way less important than pve.
Most hardcore wvw players change their look constantly, especially commanders as to not get focused down by the enemy zerg or squad. Having a special snowflake armor which signals every one on the other side to focus you is highly disadvantageous in a wvw setting. At least if you play this mode dedicated enough to care about efficiency.

** Most Commanders I know tend to have the brightest looking gear out there so that their OWN group can recognize them and follow them. The harder core the commander the more they realize that visibility for your own blob is more important than worrying about the other blob focusing you down. If your blob can see you then they will follow you. If your blob CAN'T see you then you die and the blob follows afterwards. The constant "stand near the commander" thing is real in WvW and part of the reason the Commander has BRIGHT outfits vs the rest. Often the Lieutenants are running similar colors to the Commander so that people know to follow them too. They're either running bright orange/yellow or bright blue. They do not change their armor a lot or try to hide because then the zerg loses them in the fight (not sure why they can't just follow the big tag but it is what it is sometimes). The people who do choose "lower key" armor tend to be roamers/scouts and that's just to make the enemy think they're an easy kill. (Ie the guy who has all his gear look like newbie gear, and is actually running full ascended). Plus there's the "everyone wearing a commander tag to confuse the commander tag watchers" tactics that happen on occasion too and the brightest colored outfit is the "real" commander (I've been linked to 2 servers who did this as a tactic against "commander tag spies"). If everyone was wearing the exact same flashy Legendary Armor then still wouldn't be a problem. Also it's not just commanders who have Legendary Armor. In fact pretty much anyone who is around level 1k has it (if they wanted it). You can get the base-line Legendary Armor after finishing the Triumphant armor track (enough to fully finish a toon). . Then take/ use the tokens to get Ascended take those to the Mystic Forge and "ta-da" you're done. Depending on time commitment and whether or not you want to collect the tokens or make them base-line Legendary Armor can be yours in a matter of 2 months (or about 22 weeks after you start playing WvW). No bells and whistles on the basic Legendary Armor, which is probably why it's not very popular and most people will wait till they hit level 1.5k. If you want the nicer version then you have to wait till you hit level 1.5k and do basically the same thing. If you save up your Skirmish tickets the whole time you can get the "flashy" Legendary Armor as soon as you have enough of the tokens (you get partials and require 10 partials for 1, you only get the partials from silver till mithril level and once you hit Diamond it disappears). It's about 9 half-tokens per week and you need 3 full tokens for gloves, boots, arms and 4 for chest and legs. But you can also (if you have the skills up) can make the tokens yourself as well. Squirmish tickets are 365 per week. So about 22 weeks of continued saving to get enough for basic Legendary and 29 for the Flashy kind. I've yet to meet anyone who wouldn't rather the "Flashier" stuff and I rarely step into PVE anymore.

In fact I could fully get the entire base-line Legendary Armor right now but I'm waiting till I hit level 1.5k because A) I want the flashier one, just like pretty much anyone else would and B) I'm halfway till level 1.5k anyways, I might as well wait, save up the tokens so I can get multiple Legendary pieces as once.

Pve visuals it's all about flash. Not needed but basically part of the main pve endgame.Pvp sort of mixes with pve. Be flashy or rather don't be flashy. Catch enemies off guard. If at all spvp deserves a unique skin for their set most of all.

Stat changing should be a factor about who gets legendary armorStrait off the bat, why does spvp get legendary armor? Completely useless for the mode if we go by requirements. Give spvp players exotics and an amazing skin, done. (I'm fine with spvp having access to legendary armor, just for argument sake this would make way more sense)

sPvP does change stats too but yeah not as much as perhaps WvW. I like that they have the option of trying new things before they start fighting in the arena though. It means should "cool changes happen" they can try them out faster, rather than having to leave go get pieces etc etc... Mystic forge.

Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

I have one toon of each class and 2 toons of the classes I play the most. I'll probably have more later.... All of them have Ascended. The three I play the most I'm up to 5 sets of armor and it's an inventory space nightmare. I would LOVE to take that down to 1 that I could just change, but at the same time I want the pretty skin vs the boring exotic looking skin, so I'll wait.... I have enough patience to wait till 1.5k so I can get the better skin rather than just getting the "boring" one right now. As for the "multiple builds" If you're running a Mes or a Ranger I would tend to agree, but everything around the other classes is based on the highest output of damage so you're running either Zerkers or Condi based on whatever is stronger at the time. The only thing that tends to change is what runes/sigils and even then it doesn't change as often or as much as it does in WvW.

Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

What does this tell us:Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.Pve is inbetween.

Working as intended.

WvW would like better skins. Actually it's something that comes up about every couple of weeks. We love our fashion wars just as much as the rest of the game. Oh and just in case you were wondering, I ran it by my wvw guild, we want pretty skins too and we love functionality that is absolutely the case but the fashion wars are REAL in WvW. We want our gear to be flashy AND functional.

I agree Spvp should get some nicer skins too, PVE they have a LOT of nice skins and let's be honest here for PVE Legendaries are less of a "necessity and more of a choice"

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

Oh, I totally believe you play raids for other
primary
reasons. After all, I do the same myself. But I'm not buying rewards having
absolutely
no influence at all. You can claim it, but I don't really see how you can prove it. There's some liquid gold, there are the useful raid currencies, there are the ascended drops and there are the raid skins. You can't just dismiss all this, because it ultimately holds at least some importance in the game. The closest you can get to proving your point is if you consistently cleared raids multiple times every week, since the subsequent clears provide very minimal (but technically - still existent) rewards.

And even then all I'd have to do is add "statistically speaking" in front of "nobody" for my statement to remain valid. :)

Well for me, I acquired my Legendary Armor through PvP, so the thought of creating a second Heavy Legendary Armor set holds no value, the same can be said for the other set types, I don’t play light and medium classes, so they hold no value to me either. I have so many better ways to acquire gold then to do a single raid encounter, so doing the raid for gold is meaningless. I have all the Legendary Weapons for my profession as well, so any weapon or Armor drops, also don’t add value to me. I literally have zero reason to do any of the raid content.

And I see what you did there, yes, yes, statistically speaking would then change the entire notion, however you must admit that claiming “nobody” on somethingwith the previous intention is a bit out there. ?

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