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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:snip on wvw

Not sure what serious wvw for you is. I have never seen ANY of those things get done (at least not on a regular basis to matter) in all 6 years of wvw. Not to mention that the Triumphant legendary armor has a requirement of 2k to get the full set and not 1.5k. You and I have had very different wvw experiences.

Your second part is basically complaining that the pve one is faster to get if you can full clear and get all the raid fights handed to you. This point has been covered and I don't feel like rehashing all that again. Suffice to say the wvw one is nothing more than a matter of time, just like the spvp one. (and most serious wvw players had or were close to the 2k requirement anyway for the triumphant)

@Ferelwing.8463 said:sPvP does change stats too but yeah not as much as perhaps WvW. I like that they have the option of trying new things before they start fighting in the arena though. It means should "cool changes happen" they can try them out faster, rather than having to leave go get pieces etc etc... Mystic forge.

Not on gear so not sure what you are talking about. Spvp stats are strictly dictated by the amulet you use which you select free of charge in your build. Your items have literally 0 effect on your spvp build.

@Ferelwing.8463 said:

Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

I have one toon of each class and 2 toons of the classes I play the most. I'll probably have more later.... All of them have Ascended. The three I play the most I'm up to 5 sets of armor and it's an inventory space nightmare. I would LOVE to take that down to 1 that I could just change, but at the same time I want the pretty skin vs the boring exotic looking skin, so I'll wait.... I have enough patience to wait till 1.5k so I can get the better skin rather than just getting the "boring" one right now. As for the "multiple builds" If you're running a Mes or a Ranger I would tend to agree, but everything around the other classes is based on the highest output of damage so you're running either Zerkers or Condi based on whatever is stronger at the time. The only thing that tends to change is what runes/sigils and even then it doesn't change as often or as much as it does in WvW.

Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

What does this tell us:
Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.Pve is inbetween.

Working as intended.

WvW would like better skins. Actually it's something that comes up about every couple of weeks. We love our fashion wars just as much as the rest of the game. Oh and just in case you were wondering, I ran it by my wvw guild, we want pretty skins too and we love functionality that is absolutely the case but the fashion wars are REAL in WvW. We want our gear to be flashy AND functional.

I agree Spvp should get some nicer skins too, PVE they have a LOT of nice skins and let's be honest here for PVE Legendaries are less of a "necessity and more of a choice"

Yes because asking people if they would want more free stuff for no extra work will have people state they are fine with less. I'm still not seeing the skin necessity in wvw but I guess that's personal preference.

Sure, 95% of all pve in this game doesn't even require exotic gear. The content which requires ascended or above is benefited by legendary variety quite a bit.

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@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that
could
use stat-changing) is working towards the
WvW
one.

In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know.
However
, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider
keeps
raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

Well, yeah, obviously if you put something in a content most people strongly dislike, then obviously most people that will get that reward will be from those that like that content. It has nothing do do with your initial statement however. You were stating reasons why people might craft a legendary set. And those reasons differ. Yes, the current envoy set armor acquisition favours people that have one outlook, but that by itself doesn't mean it's the outlook most players share.

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@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

Umm, actually you still have 4 or 5 different builds that are top builds per class most of the time based entirely on what you need to be doing at the time. Roaming builds alone have multiple different stats based on the playstyle of the player. It's way more diverse even at the high level WvW...

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

For zerging sure, they have less diversity but only for blobs and zergs. If you're doing roaming and scouting you have far more diversity and most people change their roaming/scouting builds out when they're going into a zerg but it's not just 2 builds for every class. There is variety.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

There's less diversity period in PVE. You're maximizing damage and not worried at all about defenses. You could make an argument for sigils and runes but that's about it.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

Oh so you're talking squishy condi... Yeah if we live through your initial burst (you know using escapes and invulns) you die. It's not hard to kill a condi Mirage. We call it Cancer but it's pretty much die... Trailblazers isn't viable at all in PVE outside of Mes. Like I said, Mes and Rangers have differences in their builds every other class is trying to maximize their damage outputs and do not give even the slightest care for defensive stats because they're meaningless.

I'll give you that wvw does vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Clestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harre splashing.

Nomads is still pretty decent, Minstrels and Cele are more common. Zerks is too squishy for anything not a War/Reaper. Mes/Thief can get away with Condi but they're dead if their initial burst is avoided. There's at least 3 or 4 viable builds on most classes (usually involving tankiness etc). In PVE it's binary outside of 2 classes.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

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I wonder where do you "need" these optimized WvW builds... I've used full Berserker builds in WvW a lot without any problems. I've seen (and still see) loads of players in green gear or with those tiny green arrows showing that they are up-leveled. A level 2 player can port to WvW and play just fine there, repairing, building siege, and in general being helpful in the WvW game mode without having an optimized build at all.

I wonder when I join a squad of 50 people how many are actually using these optimized WvW builds and are not using regular PVE builds instead. Might be fun to poll the squad for that.

This comparison between a game mode that has the same gear/build "requirements" as casual open world PVE versus a game mode that has much higher requirements (Raids - instanced content) is really not working. WvW is where you go to have some casual PVP fights (like the open world is where you get casual PVE fights), if I want to use highly optimized builds, I'll go do ranked PVP at platinum/legendary league, or if I want to use highly optimized builds in PVE, I'll play high end Fractals or Raids.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

But yeah exactly.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

But yeah exactly.

Which is no proof that those builds are unique and optimized. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:I wonder where do you "need" these optimized WvW builds... I've used full Berserker builds in WvW a lot without any problems. I've seen (and still see) loads of players in green gear or with those tiny green arrows showing that they are up-leveled. A level 2 player can port to WvW and play just fine there, repairing, building siege, and in general being helpful in the WvW game mode without having an optimized build at all.

Lol... There are some players who absolutely love to troll people while playing "crap skins" even though they're running full Ascended. It's actually a common Roaming trick. Also, wearing zerkers generally means you're squishy. You will die to siege attacks (arrow carts are particularly strong against anyone running vipers and zerkers because less defensive stats). Of course if you've ranked up against siege it's not as damaging. Also, running zerkers means you will die if someone invuln's your initial burst. You don't have many protections. Now there are two classes that can get away with it because of their innate kit (Reapers/Wars) but the rest of the classes get killed. If you run into a bad player or someone not expecting your burst you might kill them. Mapchat usually follows: Found a zerkers/condi (insert champ) near (location) that tends to mean that you'll be hunted down as a free bag later. At least that's what my team does.

I wonder when I join a squad of 50 people how many are actually using these optimized WvW builds and are not using regular PVE builds instead. Might be fun to poll the squad for that.

Depends on the server and depends on the squad. When zerging in a PUG it's not as common because people just join up with the nearest tag and go where-ever. When you have an actual plan as to what you're going for then you change your build to meet that plan.

This comparison between a game mode that has the same gear/build "requirements" as casual open world PVE versus a game mode that has much higher requirements (Raids - instanced content) is really not working. WvW is where you go to have some casual PVP fights (like the open world is where you get casual PVE fights), if I want to use highly optimized builds, I'll go do ranked PVP at platinum/legendary league, or if I want to use highly optimized builds in PVE, I'll play high end Fractals or Raids.

PVE still doesn't rely on any kind of defensive stats. It's burst it down and whatever build does more burst wins. (Sure there are exceptions as mentioned previously)

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

I said raid builds are way more optimized than your bazillion of mediocre or good builds. You are comparing on unequal footing.

I intentionally left out wvw metabattle or popular metabuilds because that would just make you look silly because those are barely better than meta raid builds. (and funny enough way less class represented or diverse)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

But yeah exactly.

Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the conversation we're having by changing the conversation to some random comment about "optimization" You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that and ignoring the whole part where we pointed out that we use more stats on an item that lets us change stats outside of combat than YOU or any PVE player ever will.

If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about trying to out-damage it's about survival and being successful at taking the objective. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot in WvW. In PVE it's about doing as much damage in bursts as possible.

I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use most of the other options available. I am saying that WvW DOES use these options and therefore it makes LESS sense that YOU get something that has all of those options when you're never planning to use them because "optimization". But somehow you've now tried to change the conversation to "You don't need it because optimization" which makes zero sense to the discussion I thought we were having. Which was (reiterated again): People in WvW change their builds a lot more often than people in PVE. They do it because it works for them and because that is required to play the mode. People in WvW would LOVE more skins but we don't get them people in PVE who (as previously mentioned) do NOT change stats as often do. It's annoying and any other combination of why it's ok is just a strawman. You do not use even half of the available stat options on a Legendary ever. People in WvW actually do. That's the conversation we're having.

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@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

But yeah exactly.

Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the case by throwing out strawman. You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that. If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about damage it's about survival. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot.

I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized. No taking a keep in what ever gear you put on is not optimized. That's like saying any stat combination which killed the raid boss is optimized. Small hint, you would lose that argument by miles since the actual stats needed to clear raids are abysmal low.

I am saying you are comparing suboptimal builds from wvw to maximum optimized builds in raids and you still are. You are even admitting to this.

Here's an example:WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

@Ferelwing.8463 said:

I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use the other options available. But somehow that means it's "ok" for you to have it. I am saying that's silly. My builds change based on what I'm doing at the time, yours may too but you don't change it as often because "optimization" which automatically proves my point.

True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple thingsB. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversityC. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

EDIT:@"Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point. For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats. Once you enter that area of performance and stat optimization, the amount of combinations used in wvw shrinks down too (not as much as pve, but a lot more than you want to make this out to be).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters
and
changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos.
I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

But yeah exactly.

Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the case by throwing out strawman. You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that. If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about damage it's about survival. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot.

I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized. No taking a keep in what ever gear you put on is not optimized. That's like saying any stat combination which killed the raid boss is optimized. Small hint, you would lose that argument by miles since the actual stats needed to clear raids are abysmal low.

And I'm saying that people in WvW are optimized towards not dying which means we still use more stat combinations than people in PVE will ever use. Defensive stats are NOT a thing in PVE. Which is why it did NOT make sense to put the Legendary Armor first into PVE. It would have made better sense to put it into WvW. The fact that they did and then only gave WvW Legendary Armor as an afterthought was bad. No matter what you keep saying I don't care about the raiding aspect anymore (I was interested in a training mode but that conversation devolved long ago). Yes, in PVE you can only optimize towards a tiny amount of what all of the stats that have been released in this game offer.

I am saying you are comparing suboptimal builds from wvw to maximum optimized builds in raids and you still are. You are even admitting to this.

I am saying this has nothing to do with your "optimization" and everything to do with the fact that WvW actually bothers to use stats that players in PVE find useless. It's because in WvW those stats ARE viable and useful rather than in PVE. You are saying that you don't care about that and consider all things that 'work" to be "suboptimal" and I'm telling you that's irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was PVE players DO NOT change their stats often enough to warrant having the best shinies when it comes to Legendaries. I am saying because you never have to change them and the only way to get the Legendary Armor means you have to optimize there would be no point for you to want to change that. You keep trying to turn the subject away from the point I've made.

Viable builds in WvW are optimized for what they are supposed to do. PVE has a sharper point on what they can build because it's more about burst than survival. That's fine but claiming our builds are "suboptimal" shows an ignorance of playing that mode.

Here's an example:WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

And I'm saying, (which you don't want to hear) that it doesn't matter whether it's "optimized" it matters whether the stat is used. I am saying being able to try out different stats and see if they work with what you're trying to do is USEFUL in WvW not in PVE. I am saying that PVE players DO NOT use all stat combos and it's not a requirement nor is it necessary but WvW is constantly trying new things because you have to counter other people's builds. You are ignoring that other peoples builds are a factor and deliberately dodging it. There are some builds I have to handle specifically vipers/zerkers builds. I will go back to my bank and change out into something that I know can handle it. Why? Because it works. Is it optimal against anything else? Not really but I change build based on what I need at the time not based on what is "the most useful overall" which is a difference in WvW vs PVE.

I'm saying that because of this innate changing of builds it didn't make sense to give PVE the Shiniest of the Shiny Legendary Armor. Instead you keep throwing out strawman that do not address the point I was making.

I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use the other options available. But somehow that means it's "ok" for you to have it. I am saying that's silly. My builds change based on what I'm doing at the time, yours may too but you don't change it as often because "optimization" which automatically proves my point.

True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple thingsB. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversityC. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

I build based on what I'm encountering. I have builds built specifically for different specialties and specific types of roamers/zergs I encounter. That's my point.

I change based on encounter and class. If I'm running an Ele I'm running different gear based on whether I'm going with Weaver or Siren. I play both, I have to change out all my gear based on which of the two I'm using. Add in if I'm playing bunker, healer, roamer, skirmisher, zerg. Each type of gear has it's own strengths and weaknesses and that's not counting the weapons. If I'm running into a lot of condi I have to run things with more condi cleanse etc etc etc... So yeah I have to change my build a lot more often because I optimize it based on encounters not "overall". And yes, I have 3-5 different types depending on what I'm doing at the time because each type of "class" requires different types of optimizations. It's not one size fits all. What I'm doing at any point in the game determines what I'm wearing because sometimes I need more of one type vs the other. A "one size fit's all" works in PVE but not in WvW. If I can't kill that bunker ele because I am too tanky... Without enough burst? That's a build issue. If I get slaughtered by a Condi mes? That's a build problem (not enough cleanse built in). I never know if I'm going to find that condi mes or that bunker ele. I could just "hope" or I could have some optimized builds for what I see most often and hope that I don't have change too much. I have pretty much 2-3 that I use most often but I have 5 total (2 of them are niche and generally involve havoc builds).

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@"Ferelwing.8463" said:snip

Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

So, where is the problem now?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:snip

Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here:

You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

So, where is the problem now?

Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:snip

Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here:

You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

So, where is the problem now?

The problem? Casuals can't get the Legendary armor without Raiding and raiders start screaming about builds immediately if they try.

Casuals will eventually adopt the raiders mentality and then their builds become just as "binary" because the optimization in the game is based entirely on NPC's and not countering other people's builds/classes. It still doesn't fix the "overall" PVE/Raiders don't change their builds nearly so often whereas the majority of WvW players do.

Does it matter? Only when it comes down to skins. Raiders got skins with stat changes that they won't use. WvW had to wait for Legendary Armor to even be an option (and complain on forums). As did sPvp. It came default to PVE and the skin given is much better than the ones given to WvW or sPvP. The people who raid then take on the mentality that they're the only ones who are worthy of Legendary gear and the rest of the people are pleebs. There is much "well I have to do something I didn't like to get a piece of my gear" rather than recognize getting Gift of Battle isn't even that long/hard and doesn't require nearly as much of a time committment (or hassle) as getting a full set of Legendary Gear in PVE. Which goes round and round till my head starts to spin. If we agreed that perhaps ALL modes should have had cool Legendary Skins and they should have been released at the time. I'd stop commenting on it. Instead a common theme is to basically call me "lazy" or "wanting a hand-out" when I just think the skin could use an upgrade and I think the entire "PVE gets the best of the best" is a little silly.

Is it all Raiders? No but enough loud mouthed ones make it so that those of us who want nicer skins feel like the only way to raise the issue is to come to this forum and point it out. The general response then tends to be "defending the reason why they get better skins" rather than saying "Yeah, that's kind of unfair."

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:snip

Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here:

You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

So, where is the problem now?

Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

Exactly! This, if you're encountering an NPC it's pretty easy to figure out what you need to build. Facing humans is completely different and it requires optimizing against the more common builds you encounter (plus having your pocket builds for when you encounter specific irritants.)

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:snip

Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here:

You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

So, where is the problem now?

Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

Thank you, at least one person gets it. Yes pve builds are more optimized and yes there is more variety in wvw builds (which for the 3rd or 4th time I have agreed to).

I'm disagreeing with how much this varierty difference is apart if compared under similar fair circumstances. Many stat combos are mathematically not viable and strait up inferior. The fact that not many people have optimized their wvw builds or aim to achieve different break points (also dictated by their own skill and comfort zone) is nothing more or less than people in pve adapting to their skill level and say using marauders instead of berserker. The fact that this gets done less in pve is simply because there are resources to use which dictate what stats to use (something which is not as easily available, developed or shared in wvw).

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