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Taimi should probably die.


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@"particlepinata.9865" said:Why does every character always have to die? And why does everyone or everything always got to be 'hated'. Is is me or is this forum becoming more and more immature?

Exactly, the forum is getting more toxic over the time. Like "The 'community' dislikes the current story position if someone doesn't die it won't have any impact!"I think just because you don't enjoy the current story doesn't mean everyone doesn't and Taimi has had some character development in this season already.

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I'd prefer not to run all the hypotheticals that Taimi does for me. Or think about what so and so would mean, as Taimi does for me. I also don't have the capacity to build a functioning, kick-ass golem as Taimi can. I need Taimi in my team.Braham, on the other hand... or maybe even Canach, since I'm worth only a sack (albeit a large one) of money to him.

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Nah. She should get a new body.

First, give Blish a new body, using the Dynamics Exo-Suit model so he doesn't look like a crappy golem and so he never gets turned off again, and trapped into a abysmal void.

Then, thanks to what she learned from making Blish's body, she should make herself a new body, this time with a more asura-like face, instead having a single crystal eye golem.

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@maxwelgm.4315 said:It is not worth it to write a wall of text in here explaining why Taimi will not die regardless of my personal opinion about it. I think I'll just bold the relevant sentence to you guys: Taimi is a plot device more than she is a character.

To me this is the issue.

I dont want the character killed off, I just dont care for the excessive, IMO, use as a plot device.

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Taimi is honestly awful. Have a problem? Taimi has the solution! Put her in danger? No one is worried really because she's clearly a writer's pet character. She detracts from the story so much with constantly having the solution to literally every problem.

Draconis Mons was the worst of it for me. Spend hours revitalizing ancient spirits to get their protection to enter a volcano? LOL so what Taimi just teleports in perfectly fine. It's honestly at the point of ridiculousness.

I'll be fair, she has moments where she's tolerable but really it's getting old having a character that magically has all the answers.

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

  • I like Taimi and think she adds a lot to the story.

I like her now and would find it a shame to see her removed now that she has finally grown into a bearable, empathic personality.

  • I don't know that the lore says she has a "terminal" condition.

Nope, it was never said that is was terminal. In fact, her disability makes for a lot of interesting future content (see her fascination with Blish's current state of existence).

  • I am not a fan of what I feel to be overly emotionally manipulative writing, of "kill off this beloved character simply for the thrill of it or because it allegedly, in some warped mind, 'strengthens the story' or simply because, as a writer, I can do that."

:+1: Amen to that. ;)

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The problem with the two sides of the debate is that one side believes in one extreme, and the other believes in the other extreme. Objectively, neither side wants full Disney, or Game of Thrones.

Clarification: Game of Thrones is a beautiful expression of character development between Seasons 1-5, after that it becomes predictable. All of the deaths in Game of Thrones S1-S5 have a reason to exist, and are driven by the needs of the narrative. Disney have regularly shown that they can conjure the most thought-provoking characters through animation, however, each character has a degree of maturity despite being used for comedic purposes. Death in both cases happens because the narrative demands it, and because the characters cause it.

The comment about not enjoying overly emotional and manipulative writing is obviously subjective, but I think people would be hard-pressed to find someone who actually enjoys that. Forced deaths are always badly written. Forced hero moments are always badly written. Forced representation is always badly written. This is a trend in modern media, however. Passive viewership is actually the worst thing to come out of this generation's media, because it allows companies to make bare-minimum narratives with superficial connections to push a contemporary political message.

I adore Game of Thrones and Disney for different reasons, but it's like the two aren't compatible to some people. It's very faction-based. The problem lies in flipping between the two in storytelling. They're polar opposites, despite sharing the same depth in narrative focus. It's why aspects of Episode 3 (Long Live the Lich) felt so jarring, especially Canach's whistling outside the gates of Gandara, whilst we fought off Joko's hordes in a desperate hour. This forced comedy might be funny on paper, but in the experience, it takes away from the moment and reminds the player that they're just a player in a game. The immersion's lost in this instance, and Guild Wars 2 frequently does this. In a tense moment, humour can be beautiful, but it can't happen every single time, otherwise, it loses its impact. The timing of humour is 90% of the joke, and I feel as if Guild Wars 2 fails on the timing, and often has cringe-worthy jokes in the place of dry, witty humour, such as 'KA-BRAHAM'. It didn't work for me, and it's subjective, but the 'E-P-I-D-E-M-I-C' part without the 'KA-BRAHAM' would've been quite amusing.

To take the Canach example, the humour shouldn't have hit during the fighting, only after the barrier was up and the gate was destroyed. So, we destroy the gate, it's a tense moment, the Awakened hordes try to rush out etc etc. The barrier goes up and Canach says: "Well, that was close." However, throughout the fighting, the members of Dragon's Watch are trying to get Canach to speed up, adding to the tension. The moment that they're in the clear, Canach says that line, and it's a bit amusing because it's relevant to both his character and alleviates the tension that we've just felt building up in the combat section. And afterwards, that can be followed by Braham stating: "You don't say. Next time, you could shave off a few seconds before we die, you know?" Canach replies: "I can only go as fast as my fingers allow me to."

I don't enjoy critiquing without offering an alternative solution. Obviously, my solutions are also subjective and some people may dislike the alternative, that's fine! I'll let you read this bit for now, but try not to stick to extremes. There's always a middle-ground for narratives.

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@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Twyn.7320 said:Gorrik is basically 'Phlunt Lite', being 'on the spectrum' and still has more potential than Taimi. Honestly like, they could save Kasmeer and Rytlock, kill off the rest and the Dragon's Watch story wouldn't lose anything and would probably become better. They've character-assassinated Braham, Rox is basically invisible, along with Marjory, Taimi's never been developed and acts as a stereotype, and Canach's devolving every single episode.

There's a misguided argument at the moment that there's too much death in Guild Wars 2.

There isn't enough consequence in the narrative. The Commander walks into one of the most dangerous places in the world, with almost the full roster of Dragon's Watch, and no one dies or gets injured. The only character that gets injured off-screen is Faren, and everyone on the forums claps and cries: 'Amazing story, best thing ever.' It's beyond predictable and terribly written. I can't understand how people play through the same formula over and over, and feel that it's amazing.

The Living Story Formula: Instance, Instance, Hearts, Final Instance.

It never deviates, and it never works. The Hearts aspect is just lazy, at least they changed it slightly for Episode 3 so we're not just doing the Hearts, but it just sets up the Hearts for a later date, as everything that we do contributes to the yellow bar. The first Instance always has a dramatic event, and it's poorly handled. The second Instance involves travelling to the new zone. The final Instance is the big conclusion that always has a strange ending. It never changes. We wait 3 months, and we get the same formula. Why can't we deviate from this? How about we travel to the zone in the first Instance, and then the whole story takes place in that zone? How about we do a mini-quest that isn't tied to the Hearts and takes place in a ruin, or something? You can't change the final Instance, I understand that... but at least handle the dramatics with good writing. ANet has only hit the mark once with an ending, and that was: Living World Season 3 Episode 1, which still remains the best Living World Episode IMO, and probably the best story that they've ever told. Everything else has either been filler or a huge let-down with missed opportunities, and most of these missed opportunities comes from character-assassinations, or just bad writing. It's actually quite frustrating to see so much potential wasted by a family-friendly, predictable narrative team, and forced representation.

A final note: Forced Representation + Bad Writing = Horrendous, Insulting Characters. Gorrik is actually an insult to people who are 'on the spectrum'. Anet's portrayal of Gorrik isn't accurate, and it's just glorifying something that's quite intricate to write. There are positives and negatives to all situations, but if you only focus on the positives, the character loses all sense of reality and becomes forced.

I wish I could like this 100 times. Absolutely spot on. The story is a predictable cadence at this point, and nothing shocking actually happens. Some scenes in Long Live the Lich were pretty good, funny even, albeit predictable. We all knew Joko would be no more after this. But that is the point of how any game is, you're the hero, they're the enemy. Ofcourse you'll triumph.There's no sense of desperation, nothing that makes you feel for the story, the characters, or the call of battle. I don't know if this is because I've gotten older, or if it's down to the writing, but good writing should give me this sense of, 'The world needs me, or we're truly doomed'. This was, oh plague, ok, let's squish some bugs. Joko's personality is what I like in an enemy, cunning, smart, and his monologue at the very end was probably the best dialogue of the entire Episode. Some home truths, and self reflection.

If the two of you knew before hand that Joko was not going to live beyond this episode that is prescient, there was actually no reason to think we would be taking him down this episode at all. As a matter of fact the more logical(and groan worthy) step would have been for us to attempt to defeat him only to lose and have to regroup, however, once it became clear he was going down the method of his demise was perfectly well orchestrated(yes, it was orchestrated, if you didn't know that Aurene would kill him then you didn't pay attention in the first instance).

As for your contention, it's a game, it has to flow from point A to B to C to end, it really can't deviate from that script without throwing everything for a loop, and believe it or not, you do not have to do the hearts to continue the story(in all cases, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't), they are ancillary and not integral to completing the story line.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

And so there are some problems with writing that you can't defend with "that's just your opinion bro" tactic.

Well, bro, I think I did just that in my last response. Now your opinion may seem like fact to you but that doesn't change that its just opinion. And in any case if the writers like writing her and people like her in the game then that seals the deal of her fate. Chances are she's more likely to die when new writers come along that don't care to write the character. But simply putting her in structure school removes her from future stories so its interesting that death was called for. Death has rarely had long term consequences for this level of story and more often serves of that one episode where the hero was sad. Though it would be interesting to see if the story of GW2 killing off a crippled child would make traction.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Twyn.7320 said:Gorrik is basically 'Phlunt Lite', being 'on the spectrum' and still has more potential than Taimi. Honestly like, they could save Kasmeer and Rytlock, kill off the rest and the Dragon's Watch story wouldn't lose anything and would probably become better. They've character-assassinated Braham, Rox is basically invisible, along with Marjory, Taimi's never been developed and acts as a stereotype, and Canach's devolving every single episode.

There's a misguided argument at the moment that there's too much death in Guild Wars 2.

There isn't enough consequence in the narrative. The Commander walks into one of the most dangerous places in the world, with almost the full roster of Dragon's Watch, and no one dies or gets injured. The only character that gets injured off-screen is Faren, and everyone on the forums claps and cries: 'Amazing story, best thing ever.' It's beyond predictable and terribly written. I can't understand how people play through the same formula over and over, and feel that it's amazing.

The Living Story Formula: Instance, Instance, Hearts, Final Instance.

It never deviates, and it never works. The Hearts aspect is just lazy, at least they changed it slightly for Episode 3 so we're not just doing the Hearts, but it just sets up the Hearts for a later date, as everything that we do contributes to the yellow bar. The first Instance always has a dramatic event, and it's poorly handled. The second Instance involves travelling to the new zone. The final Instance is the big conclusion that always has a strange ending. It never changes. We wait 3 months, and we get the same formula. Why can't we deviate from this? How about we travel to the zone in the first Instance, and then the whole story takes place in that zone? How about we do a mini-quest that isn't tied to the Hearts and takes place in a ruin, or something? You can't change the final Instance, I understand that... but at least handle the dramatics with good writing. ANet has only hit the mark once with an ending, and that was: Living World Season 3 Episode 1, which still remains the best Living World Episode IMO, and probably the best story that they've ever told. Everything else has either been filler or a huge let-down with missed opportunities, and most of these missed opportunities comes from character-assassinations, or just bad writing. It's actually quite frustrating to see so much potential wasted by a family-friendly, predictable narrative team, and forced representation.

A final note: Forced Representation + Bad Writing = Horrendous, Insulting Characters. Gorrik is actually an insult to people who are 'on the spectrum'. Anet's portrayal of Gorrik isn't accurate, and it's just glorifying something that's quite intricate to write. There are positives and negatives to all situations, but if you only focus on the positives, the character loses all sense of reality and becomes forced.

I wish I could like this 100 times. Absolutely spot on. The story is a predictable cadence at this point, and nothing shocking actually happens. Some scenes in Long Live the Lich were pretty good, funny even, albeit predictable. We all knew Joko would be no more after this. But that is the point of how any game is, you're the hero, they're the enemy. Ofcourse you'll triumph.There's no sense of desperation, nothing that makes you feel for the story, the characters, or the call of battle. I don't know if this is because I've gotten older, or if it's down to the writing, but good writing should give me this sense of, 'The world needs me, or we're truly doomed'. This was, oh plague, ok, let's squish some bugs. Joko's personality is what I like in an enemy, cunning, smart, and his monologue at the very end was probably the best dialogue of the entire Episode. Some home truths, and self reflection.

If the two of you knew before hand that Joko was not going to live beyond this episode that is prescient, there was actually no reason to think we would be taking him down this episode at all. As a matter of fact the more logical(and groan worthy) step would have been for us to attempt to defeat him only to lose and have to regroup, however, once it became clear he was going down the method of his demise was perfectly well orchestrated(yes, it was orchestrated, if you didn't know that Aurene would kill him then you didn't pay attention in the first instance).

As for your contention, it's a game, it has to flow from point A to B to C to end, it really can't deviate from that script without throwing everything for a loop, and believe it or not, you do not have to do the hearts to continue the story(in all cases, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't), they are ancillary and not integral to completing the story line.

It's not actually prescient. It's a trend with Guild Wars 2's story-telling, and that's why the format's become extremely predictable. It basically works like this:

Does the character do something that could result in a world-ending or race-ending threat? If yes, they'll die in the next story that involves them.

This was the case with Caudecus. He posed a real threat to Divinity's Reach in Out of the Shadows, and so, he was executed in the Lake Doric narrative. It was also the case with Lazarus. He posed a real threat if he was able to be resurrected in the White Mantle narrative, so Livia put an end to him with our help in One Path Ends. It was also the case with Balthazar. He posed a world-ending threat in Draconis Mons, and became the villain of Path of Fire, so he died in its conclusion. Joko is just the most recent villain to die in the next story that involved him. He posed a threat to all of the Human nations by collecting the Scarab Plague in A Bug in the System that could wipe them out in days or weeks, so he was going to die in Long Live the Lich. This is what I meant by 'the narrative is very predictable', because the formula never changes. The villains never win in any large or small way, except in one instance: Scarlet.

Even though Scarlet died, her effect on the world still exists to this date. She caused the awakening of Mordremoth, which in turn, led to the magical explosions that we've seen in recent Episodes. It's not a surprise that this type of story-telling died with LWS1. Anet is petrified of repeating LWS1's formula, due to its controversial history. It's been several years since then, and I doubt that they'd mess it up like that again. Just because one aspect of LWS1 went wrong, it doesn't mean that the whole thing was terrible.

As for the hearts, you actually have to complete them in some Episodes to progress the narrative. For instance, Daybreak made the player complete the Astralarium heart in order to progress into the Sunspears' sanctuary. Without doing that, you couldn't carry on with the story, and it was ultimately dull story-telling to introduce players to the hearts in the zone of Istan.

As for the 'it's a game, it can't deviate from a set formula or script', that isn't the case. A script goes through multiple edits as the chapter's being made, so it's possible to deviate from a formula, they're just choosing not to. For instance, Peter Fries admitted that LWS4 was originally going to have a huge sub-plot where Joko instructed an Awakened Assassin, likely a lore character, to hunt down and eliminate members of Dragon's Watch to weaken his opposition. At the end of Episode 3, we'd have to fight the Awakened versions of the eliminated Dragon's Watch members. However, they decided to cut this because it was 'too dark'. Despite being the most interesting idea to come from the Narrative Team in a LONG time IMO, they're very quick to cut anything or edit anything that may deviate from the traditional formula of Guild Wars 2's story-telling.

And finally, as for Aurene killing Joko. I think that's one of the most predictable aspects of Long Live the Lich. By the time that they hadn't introduced anything to do with 'how to kill Joko', which was just before Be My Guest, I knew that Aurene would be the cause. I just hoped that Aurene wouldn't be the cause of Joko's death because the narrative needed a few more Episodes with Joko, IMO. However, I'd already said my goodbyes to Joko when the Official Trailer released for Long Live the Lich. The title basically gave it away, because at the death of a monarch, the people usually chant: 'Long Live the Queen/King'.

Anyway, this is why I feel that the story is noticeably predictable, and why I've been able to predict the narrative trends since Living World Season 3. You may choose to disagree with me, as if I can't be a prophet in that way. However, it's very simple to work out what's going to happen if you look at the narrative trends of Guild Wars 2. Until this changes, I'm going to be a really snazzy prophet with a diamond crown and a golden goblet of wine. ;)

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@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:Well Taimi did say that as she gets older the degenerative effect may spread to other parts of her body. If that included her vital organs, especially her heart and lungs, it could kill her.

We have been told it's a degenerative bone condition. Now, I'm not sure about asura anatomy, but I don't think their organs will be made of bone! :P

Ooo so like this?

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I mean I don't mind dark plots but I've never enjoyed it much when characters get killed off for the sake of it.It's always either for shock value or to get rid of a character and it always comes off so fake to me.

I much more enjoy watching characters go through bad times and come out stronger because of it imo.

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Kanach would be perfect to die and be more impactful. Why? Because everyone loves him. You want the audience to feel the loss.

See, I hate this trope as well. It's emotionally manipulative and punishes the players for daring to like a character.

Killing off a character for cheap thrills does not add to the story.

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I find being trapped in your own body with no means of escape is much more terrifying than dying. Also, as horrible as it sounds, I'm surprised that the subject of the PC contemplating suicide hasn't been brought up. I mean, I heard desperation as you fought your double. That feeling of doing what you feel is right and then ultimately screwing things up worse truly feels awful. Maybe I'm thinking too much into this.

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I'm fine with Taimi, now that she's being used a bit less as a pure plot crutch and we learn more of her character. For me it's more alarming how little Kas and Jory there is, for a goodly while overall. I know not all love them, but I always liked what A-net has done with them, even if they fared worse in writing of late through that lack of presence. I get that some hate relationship stuff but for me that is just part of a storyline as much as any other interaction, if handled well.

I have to say though, I really love Braham right now. Finally we norn players get a character that starts to feel like one, after Eir.

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Ooo. They could have Braham cloned a bunch of times, like in those Mordrem pods. Then they could kill off all of the main characters. Except Braham.

Or alternatively, they could clone Braham a ton of times and replace ALL of the NPCs in the game with Braham and make it so the clones can only say "Eirsson"...

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@Aodlop.1907 said:It would have an impact, it's a really liked character, much like Tybalt.

Everyone's taste is different... I found Tybalt kind of annoying and was actually a bit glad when he died. TBH I like playing through as whispers but I really wish there was an option to have a different mentor than Tybalt. But, Taimi is awesome and must never die. :smiley:

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I love Taimi. Her dying would ruin the game for me like the one character dying in The Bridge to Terabithia. I refuse to watch that movie again. Besides she's the Commander's (James Bond) Q. The only way she can die and not ruin the game story is if she uploads herself to a Golem and you interact with it and a holographic projection of her mortal form.

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