The main villain of LS4 (Spoilers) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The main villain of LS4 (Spoilers)

This interesting bit from the reddit AMA:

We had other story debt we needed to pay off this season, and a limited number of episodes in which to do it. We kept him around as long as we could justify to tie up his arc from PoF, but we couldn’t make him the main threat this season.

If Joko wasn't supposed to be the main villain of Season 4, then are we gonna meet them in the next episode? Will there be enough episodes to flesh out a new awesome villain? Because we are already on Episode 3 of Season 4 and a main villain needs to be well designed. From all the characters we've seen in Season 4 so far I can't say I can pick one out as the potential main villain, so it's either gonna be a new character, or an old one that comes back and/or betrays us.

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  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    This interesting bit from the reddit AMA:

    We had other story debt we needed to pay off this season, and a limited number of episodes in which to do it. We kept him around as long as we could justify to tie up his arc from PoF, but we couldn’t make him the main threat this season.

    If Joko wasn't supposed to be the main villain of Season 4, then are we gonna meet them in the next episode?

    You already met him. It's big and purple. Joko was just another subject on their checklist to destroy (like Lazarus) and now we're cool going back to "exciting" elder dragon story.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018

    That's the issue. Villains being a tick on a checklist to breeze through quickly to get to the next tick on the list. Joko and Kralk could have co-existed in a full Season, they just chose instead to rush through things again. Sounds like Ls4 is about to lose the great focus it had in 1/2 and try and capture too many plot threads again.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    This interesting bit from the reddit AMA:

    We had other story debt we needed to pay off this season, and a limited number of episodes in which to do it. We kept him around as long as we could justify to tie up his arc from PoF, but we couldn’t make him the main threat this season.

    If Joko wasn't supposed to be the main villain of Season 4, then are we gonna meet them in the next episode?

    You already met him. It's big and purple. Joko was just another subject on their checklist to destroy (like Lazarus) and now we're cool going back to "exciting" elder dragon story.

    Although what you say makes sense, I don't really want the rest of the Season to be about us fighting Kralkatorik because honestly I don't view the Elder Dragons as good villains. Joko was much more interesting and if the rest of the Season is about us beating Kralkatorik I'll be sad, unless something changes to make him more interesting.

    I absolutely agree. but after Lazarus and now getting confirmation they did Joko because they "had to", I have no expectations about the story.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    This interesting bit from the reddit AMA:

    We had other story debt we needed to pay off this season, and a limited number of episodes in which to do it. We kept him around as long as we could justify to tie up his arc from PoF, but we couldn’t make him the main threat this season.

    If Joko wasn't supposed to be the main villain of Season 4, then are we gonna meet them in the next episode?

    You already met him. It's big and purple. Joko was just another subject on their checklist to destroy (like Lazarus) and now we're cool going back to "exciting" elder dragon story.

    Unless they're going to find a reason to give him a personality and motivations other than the usual dragon stuff, Kraalkatorik is a problem, not a villain.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with LS not so much being a complete story arc as a way to do some monster of the week episodes and world-building, advance some character arcs in low-tension scenes, resolve dangling plot threads, and build up to the actual big bad of the next expansion.

    That said, Joko is the only notable antagonist character we've faced so far this season, so they'll need to introduce a new character soon if they're going to do it. Hoping it isn't the Order of Shadows, as they seem pretty trivial compared to what we already dispatched.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    This interesting bit from the reddit AMA:

    We had other story debt we needed to pay off this season, and a limited number of episodes in which to do it. We kept him around as long as we could justify to tie up his arc from PoF, but we couldn’t make him the main threat this season.

    If Joko wasn't supposed to be the main villain of Season 4, then are we gonna meet them in the next episode?

    You already met him. It's big and purple. Joko was just another subject on their checklist to destroy (like Lazarus) and now we're cool going back to "exciting" elder dragon story.

    Unless they're going to find a reason to give him a personality and motivations other than the usual dragon stuff, Kraalkatorik is a problem, not a villain.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with LS not so much being a complete story arc as a way to do some monster of the week episodes and world-building, advance some character arcs in low-tension scenes, resolve dangling plot threads, and build up to the actual big bad of the next expansion.

    That said, Joko is the only notable antagonist character we've faced so far this season, so they'll need to introduce a new character soon if they're going to do it. Hoping it isn't the Order of Shadows, as they seem pretty trivial compared to what we already dispatched.

    You are absolutely correct. However Anet likes their dragons and they think people like dragons too.

  • Red Haired Savage.5430Red Haired Savage.5430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IDK if what some of what Joko said at the end is to believed we might be left cleaning up our own mess, or we might have already gone past the point of no return with our dragon/god killing and magical imbalance and whatnot. Or possibly we get trouble from the little rip in time/space that we had Blish make.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Lametoile.7394Lametoile.7394 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, i think Joko was wonderful as a villain, and had a great potential. Unfortunately, now he's gone. On the one hand, i'm happy about it, i have wanted him rip appart for sooooooo long...
    It's completely Anet fault. They have multiple plots to adress. Next expansion is supposed to drive us out of Elona and both Joko and, to a lesser extent, Kralk, are related to Elona. Which means we have to deal with them for good on this season. Matter of time that's all it is.

    However, killing Joko so early could be very interesting too: stories focus a lot about bethroning the evil king, but rarely deal with the aftermath, which is the worst part. While dealing with Kralk, Aurene and magic balance, we would be inevitably confronted with this aftermath, which could make good development for various factions.

    For example: order of shadows. We still ignore a lot about them, but we know they didn't want Joko's bethroning to be rushed AT ALL. They will inevitably play a part in the story to come. To the point that they blame us for the chaos, reveal their own plans and Kito/Master of shadows turn out as an antagonist? Not sure about this. I think, shall a new villain came across, it would most likely a characer we already know or have heard of. So, either we are betrayed by a friend of importance, or we finally meet with the leader of inquest, flame legion or whatever. 4 episodes will be too short to build up a new strong antagonist.
    There are also theories that state that Joko is not exactly dead but i wn't expand to much on this.

    As it was said, Kralk will not be the villain. He's a monster. He's a threat. But we can't consider him an active, shrewd, personnalized antagonist (except from some great plot twist. Mordy was sentient somehow, why Kralk could not evolve?)

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lametoile.7394 said:
    For example: order of shadows. We still ignore a lot about them, but we know they didn't want Joko's bethroning to be rushed AT ALL. They will inevitably play a part in the story to come. To the point that they blame us for the chaos, reveal their own plans and Kito/Master of shadows turn out as an antagonist? Not sure about this. I think, shall a new villain came across, it would most likely a characer we already know or have heard of. So, either we are betrayed by a friend of importance, or we finally meet with the leader of inquest, flame legion or whatever. 4 episodes will be too short to build up a new strong antagonist.

    I guess at least we've moved from causing global cataclysmic magical disasters to mere regional geopolitical disasters. So, there's that.

    It seems strange the OoS would actually become an antagonist. They seem excessively pragmatic, and whatever damage we did, going after us isn't going to undo it and we're probably not going to be in their hair for much longer anyway except maybe to deal with Kraalkatorik. Yes, we created a power vacuum and various factions of former loyalists along with the OoS and the Sunspears will be vying to fill it. But there's no particular reason for us to be involved with that civil war when there are dragons to k... er, replace or neutralize.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Although what you say makes sense, I don't really want the rest of the Season to be about us fighting Kralkatorik because honestly I don't view the Elder Dragons as good villains. Joko was much more interesting and if the rest of the Season is about us beating Kralkatorik I'll be sad, unless something changes to make him more interesting.

    While I agree with your stance on dragons (booooooring), you need to remember that we are not going to kill any more of them. We must find other ways to reduce their theat level, and I assume that will be part of the upcoming episodes.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    That's the issue. Villains being a tick on a checklist to breeze through quickly

    Quickly? It was a whole expansion and half a LW season. That's "quick" in your book? Also, why always keep great story potential for the finale? There have to be highlights before that as well, or else we will go back to getting ridiculous content like in LWS3 (e.g., Balthazar, a fallen God, poses as Lazarus of all beings´ to try to gain our trust and access to Asuran technology, kitten?).

    ´) on top of that with a stolen mirror that no one knows how he could get since he could never have gotten close enough to steal it from Lyssa, unless it's an artifact that was kept in some human temple

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Although what you say makes sense, I don't really want the rest of the Season to be about us fighting Kralkatorik because honestly I don't view the Elder Dragons as good villains. Joko was much more interesting and if the rest of the Season is about us beating Kralkatorik I'll be sad, unless something changes to make him more interesting.

    While I agree with your stance on dragons (booooooring), you need to remember that we are not going to kill any more of them. We must find other ways to reduce their theat level, and I assume that will be part of the upcoming episodes.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    That's the issue. Villains being a tick on a checklist to breeze through quickly

    Quickly? It was a whole expansion and half a LW season. That's "quick" in your book? Also, why always keep great story potential for the finale? There have to be highlights before that as well, or else we will go back to getting ridiculous content like in LWS3 (e.g., Balthazar, a fallen God, poses as Lazarus of all beings´ to try to gain our trust and access to Asuran technology, kitten?).

    ´) on top of that with a stolen mirror that no one knows how he could get since he could never have gotten close enough to steal it from Lyssa, unless it's an artifact that was kept in some human temple

    Joko wasn't a whole expansion though. His Awakened army had cameos in the first 3 maps and really the Desolation was where it started to ramp up. We then Went to Vabbi where we got an excellent alternative perspective and painted him as benevolent to the Vabbians. His own appearance was a small subplot. So really, the expansion had some small set up.

    Then we got 2 episodes which was a slow build, with a current event setting things up to a much wider plot. And then it was over.

    So yes, very, very quick in my book, especially given the potential and all the missed lore being hinted at. And keeping a strong villain through series will help prevent the issue in LS3 you described by maintaining focus.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, hey, the guy who was an integral part of assembling the army that attempted to destroy a third elder dragon certainly is in a good position to criticize us well-to-do hero types.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Well, hey, the guy who was an integral part of assembling the army that attempted to destroy a third elder dragon certainly is in a good position to criticize us well-to-do hero types.

    Perspective. It's kinda a big deal.

    If you look at the story from anyone's PoV that's not ours, they've just been fulfilling their cyclic need to consume so that'd make us pretty horrible people by forcing them to choose death or starvation.

  • Shanna.4762Shanna.4762 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah I was disappointed with how abrupt it seems, I feel like Joko could have been a season-long villain, he had a fantastically villainous personality and we already had the plot to go with it, I know we have to some how solve the Elder Dragon thing, but I agree it seems more like a problem than a villain. They could have continued to co-exist in the overarching story, and I would have thought defeating Joko would have been a more significant endeavor than it was, and there was very little at the end to sort of tie it up, we didn't even have a significant sense of victory, the chapter just ended immediately rather than making us go somewhere and have any sort of a "Yay he's dead now let's turn our attention to..." moment.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018

    @PeterFries.1057 said:
    Joko would argue that you've always been the villain.

    Frankly, that trope, that started the moment GW2 appeared on the horizon, when we learned everything we've done in GW1 was either mostly meaningless, or resulted in tragedies later on, is getting really tiring now. Especially since we're now learning that even things that we've thought were generally positive (like killing Abaddon in gw1, and killing Zhaitan/Mordy in GW2) turned out to cause massive problems. I shudder to think what bad consequences the ending of last chapter is going to cause.

    And as for Joko... i feel that this was some really rushed ending. Not the first, by the way. Lately it seems, that there are some characters that are brought in only so they can be written off on-screen, so people will stop bothering Anet about them (Lazarus, anyone? That could have been a wonderful opportunity for a more deep and complex story, and then he got written off, just like that. Twice. Talk about lost opportunities).

    It's as if Anet cannot bear the thought of some multiple plots going at the same time and feel the need to completely close one before they can move to another. Which is especially jarring in cases where (as they admitted elsewhere) they knew did not have enough screentime to give some plots justice.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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