EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

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  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    What? I am a woman and I called those commenters on Jessica's feed mansplainers, that's why she was enraged. I was not sarcastic...Maybe something got lost in translation as english is not my native tongue.

    I was agreeing with you. Lots of those people are jumping on her, accusing her of being sexist, because she accused this guy of being sexist.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • OrbitalButt.5708OrbitalButt.5708 Member ✭✭✭

    This thread is now heading for shutdown land because you people can't stop arguing over the ontology of mansplaining

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

    No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

    @Dashingsteel.3410

    Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

    You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Laivine.9308Laivine.9308 Member ✭✭

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Batel.9206 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?
    Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

    I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

    That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

  • Tasida.4085Tasida.4085 Member ✭✭✭

    Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

    (NOBL) rocking GW's since 2005, still rocking Sorrow's Furnace :P

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Batel.9206 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?
    Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

    I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

    That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

    No, that is the assumption that every person we talk to is on an equal level to us and thus we assume they are just like us - whatever gender we may have.

    On the internet its a gamble if somebody is male or female, assuming one is male or female is literally just so that we can address them in a direct way.

    Bite me.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tasida.4085 said:
    Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

    Don't comment on it then because most people here will disagree with that notion.

    And I will quote myself for this:

    "Don't speak up when people treat you poorly, it doesn't affect me personally so it's not relevant"

    Bite me.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @miraude.2107 said:
    I understand holding someone to standards on social media, however I also see her frustration in having unsolicited advice, constructive or not, expressed at her on her personal account instead of posting it straight to the game or using official channels. I'm sure most of you would get frustrated and wear thing if the customers you dealt with constantly bombarded you with questions about your work on your personal twitter and facebook after working the hours that they work.
    This is one of the reasons that most devs in games are starting to make their personal accounts private, have two accounts or just delete them is because of things like this. Honestly this constant posting over and over again akins to a witch hunt. LOOOK, LOOK AT WHAT THIS ANET PERSON DID, EVEN THOUGH THE ADVICE WAS UNSOLICITED, IT WAS ~CONSTRUCTIVE~! SHAME SHAME! Let's ignore that anet is probably already reviewing and considering options since there was a holiday, let's just publicly execute this developer here and now, force their hand and make them fire someone they may not be able to replace at this time.

    Anet is really bad about communicating with their player base is the first problem, I can probably name a dozen games off the top of my head at are much much better at it. This is probably (can't say for sure, so don't hold me to it) what brought this around. The player felt their voice wasn't being heard because they were not getting enough feedback so they went straight to the source.

    Was this the best course of action? Not really. Did they feel like it was the only course? Probably and rightly so. That being said, she should have put on her adult pants like we all have to do some times and bite the bullet on her own feelings and respond professionally to the comment. In the least apologize after the fact which would be fine, we all make mistakes.

    I think the lack of professionalism here is the real killer and if you're going to be responding to someone publicly regarding your place of work/business it is of the utmost importance to be so. There is an expectation from someone in her position if she realizes it or not.

    On a personal note; I do NOT find her behavior regarding this acceptable. If you've EVER had to work customer service there are just some basic things you don't do and what she did is one of them. I think anyone who services a customer as their job should be offended by her behaviour. Why does she get to treat her customers like this when the rest of the millions of people who provide services have to suck it up and treat people politely because its their job.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Lalainnia.3598Lalainnia.3598 Member ✭✭✭

    lol feels hurt so easily

  • nosleepdemon.1368nosleepdemon.1368 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    ANet tend to err on the side of misandry as a whole, being at best, politically correct to the point of hampering the game imo (ahem Taimi). With that said, there are plenty of "rock star" developers out there who believe the sun shines out of their bottoms, and this particular dev appears to fit the mold. The tool she used this time was the sexism card, but had that not been available she would have no doubt done something else. GW2 does a lot of things right, enough for the individual conduct of their developers to not matter all that much to me. As the saying goes - never meet your heroes. Hopefully the existence of this thread is enough of an impetus for her to stop acting like a jerk, but don't expect it.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

    No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

    @Dashingsteel.3410

    Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

    You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

    He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

    What a laugh

    It’s not based on his sex. It’s a term that describes a common sexist assumption by men that women are inherently less competent and need to have the world explained to them by a man. Even if that man is not at all qualified and the woman is highly skilled.

    It is a term that describes one result of sexism. It uses “man” because the sexism of men towards women is uniquely represented in this behavior. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.

    You are latching onto the use of “man” in “mansplain” to call this sexist. But, this is a red herring that distracts from what she was complaining about—sexism—by making her responsible for a term that uses “man” for no other reason than it accurately describes a socialogical phenomenon.

    This is why I call it a logical leap. You start by associating a common term with her and attribute bias to that term without thinking about why that term is what it is. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    @Einlanzer.1627

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Basically, why it matters to you? Is sexism a trigger word now? Obviously if you come at someone with this undertone of "I know how to do your job better" and that person is a female in a field dominated by men you run the risk of that type of comment being received as sexist. That's just basic intelligence. Perhaps he (or she) didn't mean it that way. But if you read through the original post she responded to its hard not to see how basic a thought it really is. Well of course it would. Its so basic that to make such a post is to suggest that even something that basic hasn't been considered before by the developer. Maybe its not sexist but it certainly is a bit insulting. Where it becomes sexist is if this is the first time this "advice" has been offered to her specifically. Like I said, we don't know that because we aren't her. We don't know is this something she receives as a matter of course. If we take her co-worker's comment into account then it seems she gets more uncalled for "help" than he. Now its easy to see how instead of just insulting its become sexist also. Plus, the sex of the poster doesn't even matter as women can make sexist comments also.

    What can't you understand now?

  • Faowri.4159Faowri.4159 Member ✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining doesn't exist. It's just a term some women throw around to shutdown men's arguments when they can't come up with a logical argument themselves.

    I might add that very few women throw it around, especially successful professional women. If we were all betting on stuff, I'd bet good money that if you asked random women what mansplaining was, you'd mostly get either confusion or responses negative to the idea of it.

    I've luckily never had the misfortune of meeting someone face to face willing to embarrass themselves by using that term.

    Oh, it exists. I work in IT, I'm a senior developer on a 60% female team and also happen to be a woman. As a senior member of the team I also do a bunch of the recruitment activities. Sit an unhappily common type of male dev in front of an interview panel of female developers and you will see. A lot. Of Mansplaining.

    That said, having read the twitter thread in question, I don't get that feel here and think it was a fair bit of an overreaction. The dude's reply was fairly inane and not nearly as clever as he clearly thought it was, though. Whole lot of drama over nothing really.

    Wanted to add: women's experiences in male-dominated fields deserve to be believed and are usually valid, as well as exhaustingly constant. People decrying the "PC brigade" have clearly never had to deal with this on a semi-permanent basis, but at least try to understand that sometimes that feeling of persecution (in the sense of never being taken at your word, always being shot down, argued with, overruled by customers in ways that male colleagues never are, or indeed BY male colleagues) can be overwhelming. If the dev in question got overwhelmed by the day-to-day background noise, I can understand it, but this was not the way to react. Keep your work and your personal social media very separate, folks!

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @thruine.8510 said:
    But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic.

    And it's just as sickening, self-righteous and pathetic if the mudslinging comes from the other side of the fence.

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

  • @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining doesn't exist. It's just a term some women throw around to shutdown men's arguments when they can't come up with a logical argument themselves.

    I might add that very few women throw it around, especially successful professional women. If we were all betting on stuff, I'd bet good money that if you asked random women what mansplaining was, you'd mostly get either confusion or responses negative to the idea of it.

    I've luckily never had the misfortune of meeting someone face to face willing to embarrass themselves by using that term.

    Hence why I said "Some" women.

  • Tasida.4085Tasida.4085 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Tasida.4085 said:
    Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

    It does bleed into the game.
    That person is designing the game, and dismissing constructive feedback, on the account she's inconvenienced by it, justifying it with a very sexist remark.
    Also, you can see the white knight co-worker coming to the rescue, which points to an institutionalized issue. So yes, it is of concern, if you care about the future of the game, and the quality of it's releases.

    Again with sexist......If I was so thin skinned I'd complain all the time about being called Bruh, Bro, Dude etc auto when I'm not male. And most of you in these forums are guilty of doing just that in game. That's being sexist by using those words. Instead we (women) ignore and play on. I stand by what I say, what happens in social media (that doesn't directly affect game play) needs to stay there instead of brought here stirring people up. If people want to quit the game over it adios and good riddance cos they are easily replaced daily.

    (NOBL) rocking GW's since 2005, still rocking Sorrow's Furnace :P

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

    No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

    @Dashingsteel.3410

    Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

    You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

    He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

    What a laugh

    It’s not based on his sex. It’s a term that describes a common sexist assumption by men that women are inherently less competent and need to have the world explained to them by a man. Even if that man is not at all qualified and the woman is highly skilled.

    It is a term that describes one result of sexism. It uses “man” because the sexism of men towards women is uniquely represented in this behavior. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.

    You are latching onto the use of “man” in “mansplain” to call this sexist. But, this is a red herring that distracts from what she was complaining about—sexism—by making her responsible for a term that uses “man” for no other reason than it accurately describes a socialogical phenomenon.

    This is why I call it a logical leap. You start by associating a common term with her and attribute bias to that term without thinking about why that term is what it is. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    @Einlanzer.1627

    So, by that logic, would you argue that "hysterical", how it was used in the 19th century, was not sexist?

    Hysteria was a condition associated with women. However, it was often a placeholder for “upset woman so she must be crazy.” As a medical diagnosis it was a catchall that treated women who complained about being treated poorly (and those with other actual medical problems) as one and the same.

    So hysteria itself was sexist in how it was applied. For example, women experiencing day post partum depression clearly have a need for medical treatment. But to medicalize all women who are upset is where that crosses into discrimination on the basis of sex.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

    Keep your judgment of what other people like to do in their free time to yourself if it's all you're going to contribute. It's not about that sole message, it's about the person behind it and the behaviour loop that keeps resulting in replies like that as well as the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place

    My contribution is that this thread is incredibly petty and it's gumming up the forums with something completely not related to the game. I'm allowed to contribute that just as much as you guys are allowed to have your soap opera.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fluffball.8307 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

    Keep your judgment of what other people like to do in their free time to yourself if it's all you're going to contribute. It's not about that sole message, it's about the person behind it and the behaviour loop that keeps resulting in replies like that as well as the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place

    My contribution is that this thread is incredibly petty and it's gumming up the forums with something completely not related to the game. I'm allowed to contribute that just as much as you guys are allowed to have your soap opera.

    You're part of it. You just bring a different kind of "outrage" to the table. You are part of the soap, a bit actor doing everything you accuse others of.

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

    Keep your judgment of what other people like to do in their free time to yourself if it's all you're going to contribute. It's not about that sole message, it's about the person behind it and the behaviour loop that keeps resulting in replies like that as well as the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place

    My contribution is that this thread is incredibly petty and it's gumming up the forums with something completely not related to the game. I'm allowed to contribute that just as much as you guys are allowed to have your soap opera.

    You're part of it. You just bring a different kind of "outrage" to the table. You are part of the soap, a bit actor doing everything you accuse others of.

    I definitely agree, and considered not posting at all because of that. My disgust at the people that are feigning outrage finally encouraged me to call everyone on the fact this is a soap opera caused by boredom and probably the content lulls we've been having.

  • miraude.2107miraude.2107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @miraude.2107 said:
    I understand holding someone to standards on social media, however I also see her frustration in having unsolicited advice, constructive or not, expressed at her on her personal account instead of posting it straight to the game or using official channels. I'm sure most of you would get frustrated and wear thing if the customers you dealt with constantly bombarded you with questions about your work on your personal twitter and facebook after working the hours that they work.
    This is one of the reasons that most devs in games are starting to make their personal accounts private, have two accounts or just delete them is because of things like this. Honestly this constant posting over and over again akins to a witch hunt. LOOOK, LOOK AT WHAT THIS ANET PERSON DID, EVEN THOUGH THE ADVICE WAS UNSOLICITED, IT WAS ~CONSTRUCTIVE~! SHAME SHAME! Let's ignore that anet is probably already reviewing and considering options since there was a holiday, let's just publicly execute this developer here and now, force their hand and make them fire someone they may not be able to replace at this time.

    If you tag your employer all over your personal feed, make an in-depth analysis about the work you do at that company on a public feed for thousands of people to see, and then become enraged when someone replies to it... you're doing twitter wrong. That's not how social media works. It hasn't worked that way in the past, it doesn't work that way in the future.

    If you want privacy, there is a button for that. If you want anonymity, don't put your name, picture and employer all over it. If you want people to not give constructive replies to a conversation about a topic that you both mutually share interest in, don't post that topic.

    This reminds me of a guy I used to work with. We had a table at the company that was used to give stuff away; the "give away" table. Put something there, and it's gone within an hour; everyone used it to get rid of old stuff they didn't want. So, anyhow: one day, this guy puts a box of stuff on the table. The box was actually a donation box, where we were supposed to put stuff INTO the box... but he didn't tell anyone that. So, he put the box on the table and it gets cleared out within a couple of hours, causing him to go into a rage when he found out, demanding justice and wanting people fired for stealing from the donation box. It didn't matter that he put it on the give-away table, with no context that it was not a give away box... the fact that HE knew no one was supposed to take anything was enough.

    What you're describing feels similar to that. If you make a public post, on a public forum, about a topic that many people who follow you share interest in, it seems a bit counter productive to become enraged when someone hits the "reply" button. Doubly so if you claim they hit the "reply" button because they hate you for your gender, only. And triply so when the person replying is one of the most helpful and well known members of the community related to that topic.

    Privacy buttons exist sure and it's feeling like more devs need to start using them. It's funny, I remember in cata WoW people saying we needed more access to the devs and when Ghostcrawler obliged, he just got eviscerated over and over again over things that he just stopped posting on the forums. This incident and how everyone is just blowing it could easily result in Anet just going 'everyone stop talking.' Then they wouldn't have to worry about anything.

    That analogy is more lack of communication then this situation. I work with a woman who has 8 years of experience running a forklift. 8 years of maneuvering around aisles, employees, avoiding customers, pulling product down, putting product up and loading/unloading the product. Now imagine 8 years of running that machinery and every single day someone telling you how to do your job. Telling you how to load that pallet of block onto a trailer over and over. Telling you how to run that forklift because they have one at home, work with one, etc. She finally snapped at a guy and said 'I know how to do my job!' that spent twenty minutes lecturing her over how to turn the forklift on, how to lift the forks, how to put it into gear. His response was that he was helping and she didn't need to be a kitten over it.

    Making public posts are all well and good however, looking beyond that and realizing that maybe they don't know the company's policies, how they handle things internally, nor what the company deems okay or not is presumptuous as well. He has a right to state his opinion, she has a right to get angry. Both have consequences however is should be the company deciding, not us being judge, jury and executioner. As I said, I understand her frustration and why she blew up multiple times at people. However not everyone shares everything on social media so I still think we should stop witch hunting and let Anet handle this.

  • @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

    No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

    @Dashingsteel.3410

    Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

    You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

    He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

    What a laugh

    It’s not based on his sex. It’s a term that describes a common sexist assumption by men that women are inherently less competent and need to have the world explained to them by a man. Even if that man is not at all qualified and the woman is highly skilled.

    It is a term that describes one result of sexism. It uses “man” because the sexism of men towards women is uniquely represented in this behavior. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.

    You are latching onto the use of “man” in “mansplain” to call this sexist. But, this is a red herring that distracts from what she was complaining about—sexism—by making her responsible for a term that uses “man” for no other reason than it accurately describes a socialogical phenomenon.

    This is why I call it a logical leap. You start by associating a common term with her and attribute bias to that term without thinking about why that term is what it is. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    @Einlanzer.1627

    Ok so let's lay out the assumptions here:

    1. It's not based on his sex.
    2. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.
    3. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    Reality:
    1. In using "man" in the term "mansplain," it is based on his sex. The non-gendered term is "explain," to say "mansplain" is to explicitly mention the person's perceived gender.
    2. Can you back this up with data or high-quality studies (i.e. large sample size, published in a reputed scientific journal, results have been replicated)? Any man can tell you that women are condescending just as men are.
    3. In general, this is true. If I said "women are, on average, shorter than men" then I am not being sexist, as that is a verifiable fact that is founded on hard data. However, when a person starts giving special treatment to a person based on their gender/sex (e.g. using "mansplain" instead of "explain), that is the definition of sexism.

    I'm actually kind of a fan of the term, because it acts as a big neon sign that ignorant and bigoted people can wear when they use it, and is usually one of the topics that bring men and women together for a single cause. There's almost always pretty quick condemnation when a prejudiced person uses a term like "mansplaining" to try to silence the voice of another person, which is always a good feeling. And it helps to remind people that true feminists are focused on equality, not some odd "superiority" like internet trolls try to push.

    Honestly, I prefer for bigotted people to out themselves with phrases like this. It's much easier to identify them if they wear it like a badge of honor, and I'd like to know who I'm dealing with. And it always feels good to see the rational people come together to condemn them in short order after.

    +1 for faith in humanity.

    That certainly is an interesting way to look at it and I agree.

  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:
    [...] it really drives home just how little the opinions of those who play this game matter to the actual employees at the company. I can only imagine how player Feedback > is viewed internally: just a bunch of amateurs telling professionals how to do their jobs, and any negative reaction towards a decision made in the game[...]

    This was pretty obvious in the "Censorship" thread already. The lack of Gaile's comments on the outrage was clear and simple and very obvious.
    The same with the unnecessary Deadeye rework. Today the plea of any further information has been ignored. It's all there, compact in a thread that a player, that does not get paid (but pay) for all that matter, can read trough in 20 minutes. I've been told it's not this way at aNet. Well then...?

    This is a different subject, but this stuff - as much as I do not really care about anymore, what company really cares about the customers out there right now? - shines some light in a shady topic that has a wider range if you think about it as a whole.

    Excelsior.

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

    No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

    @Dashingsteel.3410

    Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

    You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

    He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

    What a laugh

    It’s not based on his sex. It’s a term that describes a common sexist assumption by men that women are inherently less competent and need to have the world explained to them by a man. Even if that man is not at all qualified and the woman is highly skilled.

    It is a term that describes one result of sexism. It uses “man” because the sexism of men towards women is uniquely represented in this behavior. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.

    You are latching onto the use of “man” in “mansplain” to call this sexist. But, this is a red herring that distracts from what she was complaining about—sexism—by making her responsible for a term that uses “man” for no other reason than it accurately describes a socialogical phenomenon.

    This is why I call it a logical leap. You start by associating a common term with her and attribute bias to that term without thinking about why that term is what it is. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    @Einlanzer.1627

    Ok so let's lay out the assumptions here:

    1. It's not based on his sex.
    2. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.
    3. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

    Reality:
    1. In using "man" in the term "mansplain," it is based on his sex. The non-gendered term is "explain," to say "mansplain" is to explicitly mention the person's perceived gender.

    I’ve already addressed why simply including a descriptive word to describe a behavior associated with men is not sexist. This is fairly simple. To reiterate, men assume themselves to be subject matter experts over women even where the woman has qualifications and the man does not. These men do not behave similarly with other men. Rather, they defer to those men’s subject-matter expertise. This male behavior to explain things, poorly, to women and not to men is sexist.

    1. Can you back this up with data or high-quality studies (i.e. large sample size, published in a reputed scientific journal, results have been replicated)? Any man can tell you that women are condescending just as men are.

    Do you have data or studies suggesting women do this to men? I’m basing this off the reported experience of multiple women in news publications going back over a decade and in conversations with women. Women in this thread have mentioned their own lived experience with this.

    Women are condescending. Everyone is at some point. But that isn’t the behavior I’m describing above. What I’m describing is the disparate treatment of women by men. Merely being condescending to everyone would not qualify as mansplaining so much as just general rudeness.

    1. In general, this is true. If I said "women are, on average, shorter than men" then I am not being sexist, as that is a verifiable fact that is founded on hard data. However, when a person starts giving special treatment to a person based on their gender/sex (e.g. using "mansplain" instead of "explain), that is the definition of sexism.

    No. See above.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • nosleepdemon.1368nosleepdemon.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    You know if she get's fired by Anet, .....bet you she gonna call it sexism & she got fired cuz she a woman & sue them for it.

    Anyone that gets fired for voicing their opinion whether or not it's on "company time" is almost assuredly undeserving of it. Twitter is a total cesspit of humanity and we would all be better off not using it, or paying attention to anything on it. ANet have somehow made their MMO work where so many have failed, so I imagine they have their heads screwed on right. All this dev deserves is a chat with HR followed by everyone in the room laughing the whole thing off for being rightly ridiculous.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    You know if she get's fired by Anet, .....bet you she gonna call it sexism & she got fired cuz she a woman & sue them for it.

    Anyone that gets fired for voicing their opinion whether or not it's on "company time" is almost assuredly undeserving of it. Twitter is a total cesspit of humanity and we would all be better off not using it, or paying attention to anything on it. ANet have somehow made their MMO work where so many have failed, so I imagine they have their heads screwed on right. All this dev deserves is a chat with HR followed by everyone in the room laughing the whole thing off for being rightly ridiculous.

    And Anet updating their apparently woefully inadequate Social Media policy

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I’ve already addressed why simply including a descriptive word to describe a behavior associated with men is not sexist. This is fairly simple. To reiterate, men assume themselves to be subject matter experts over women even where the woman has qualifications and the man does not. These men do not behave similarly with other men. Rather, they defer to those men’s subject-matter expertise. This male behavior to explain things, poorly, to women and not to men is sexist.

    "I’ve already addressed why simply including a descriptive word to describe a behavior associated with men is not sexist." You keep saying that a particular behavior is associated with men, but provide no reason to believe the association is not sexist. Many men associate being "emotionally expressive" with women, without corroborating scientific proof. Therefore the belief that women are relatively "emotional" is sexist until there is corroborating scientific evidence. Do you have scientific proof that men are more frequently condescending to women than the converse?

    Do you have data or studies suggesting women do this to men? I’m basing this off the reported experience of multiple women in news publications going back over a decade and in conversations with women. Women in this thread have mentioned their own lived experience with this.

    Women are condescending. Everyone is at some point. But that isn’t the behavior I’m describing above. What I’m describing is the disparate treatment of women by men. Merely being condescending to everyone would not qualify as mansplaining so much as just general rudeness.

    I do not have data or studies suggesting women do this to men. You and I are both lacking in scientific proof that men are disproportionately condescending towards women, or the converse, which is my point. Individual anecdotes are not scientific, and that's all you or I are presenting. If I am wrong that you are lacking scientific proof, please cite your sources.

    1. In general, this is true. If I said "women are, on average, shorter than men" then I am not being sexist, as that is a verifiable fact that is founded on hard data. However, when a person starts giving special treatment to a person based on their gender/sex (e.g. using "mansplain" instead of "explain), that is the definition of sexism.

    No. See above.

    This is neither an explanation nor an argument. You failed to prove your point above using scientific evidence. Please cite your sources.

This discussion has been closed.
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