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  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    Assuming this isn't satire, here's the definition of "racism" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, which is used in the United States. Here's the copy/pasted definitions:

    1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2. a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
    3. a political or social system founded on racism
    4. racial prejudice or discrimination

    Interestingly enough, this doesn't mention that you can't be racist against white people, or more importantly, "the oppressors" as defined by certain far-left social theories. @Feithlinn.9284 I'd like to see what dictionary you've been reading.

    Noah Webster was a white male so doesn't count. /s

    They have no idea what racism means. Really. They believe that the "oppressors" is something alien or even maybe the black people.

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    That is not the core of our disagreement. The core of our disagreement is that it is moral, appropriate, and non-sexist to focus on bad behavior by the male sex, when women are also guilty of the same behavior. I believe it is immoral, inappropriate, and sexist to single out behavior by members of a particular sex when some members of the opposite sex perform the same behaviors. Whether or not one sex performs it more frequently (so far no scientific proof has been presented that one sex does it more frequently) is of interest to me, but not even marginally relevant to whether the sexism is noteworthy. I believe in equal responsibility for and protection of men and women. If a woman is robbed by a man and he takes $100, has she lost more money than a man who was robbed of $100 by a woman?

    You are now asserting that “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” is "particular" to men, while also acknowledging that women perform this same behavior. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of particular, this is to help you understand the distinction you're making using that word. Prior to this comment, you were claiming that women "are statistically more likely to experience this than men" without providing a source. So now you're going from "this behavior is more frequently performed by men" to "this behavior is particular to men." Interesting evolution of your stated views I must say. I look forward to you presenting scientific evidence in your future post.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    Why can you in this specific situation? There's one woman and one man, so it can be as much mansplaining than womansplaining. Actually, the way it's phrased, one could also assume that the message was about dismissing what the consumer said because he's a guy and knows nothing.
    See where that goes? Especially given the history of the feed, you can feel a bias towards men (on the contrary to Deroir, who has no track history of bias against women afaik.)

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    So this one is particularly interesting, and I believe is at the core of the issue our society is facing regarding this topic.
    You're saying that some men don't understand why something is sexist? Maybe that's right. But then a few questions:

    • If they don't know that what they're saying is sexist by your standards, how can you assume that their intention is to make someone feel inferior?
    • Instead of telling them "you don't even understand", why not explaining what you consider is sexist in the original message?
      As someone who was born in Europe and never had to deal with race and gender issues, I genuinely don't understand. In a society where we all want to be together in the end, wouldn't the "best" way to solve this actually explain why you feel that way, instead of condemning?
  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:
    But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic.

    And it's just as sickening, self-righteous and pathetic if the mudslinging comes from the other side of the fence.

    Thanks for fixing that. But this fence, care to explain? Because what I see is lots of fans (and we see that its the same for fans of games such as GW2) throw kitten of various degrees then cry when they get a little push back. While the guy (I'm assuming) wasn't like a lot of what we see on the internet, he did seem to sound like he was explaining something to someone lacking such basic knowledge of writing within MMOs.

    This guy wasn't throwing kitten and wasn't crying. He wasn't explaining anything, he was offering a different opinion.

    Are people running back through his feed? Probably. There's nothing that happens these days where everyone doesn't take some side. I don't even mean to be on a side except as those that are so tired of these types of reactions. Look at all the victims she created with that comment. I mean, now its going to affect someone's game play. Now its just another example of ArenaNet's problems. Its just a long list of folks traumatized by this one series of post.

    This is why she should've thought twice before lashing out. Companies and their devs have no control over unreasonable "fan" behaviour. They have complete control over their own.

    I mean if you really believe that the internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans, chasing them throughout social media, then I guess that's the way you see it.

    I don't care for this generalisation. I was talking about one instance.

    For me, I guess I'm on the other side of that fence. Whatever it is these "fans" want, my guess is they are more likely to get even this little bit of contact cut off. And frankly, I'm not sure there's any value with any company engaging with fans. Not as long as respect is a one way street. This has no affect on any of us except the original poster.. And even there it doesn't look like that big of a wound.

    I've never seen the least bit value in social media interactions to begin with, but things being as they are, we're stuck with it.

    Finally, I'm not on either side of the fence. I find this kind of behaviour regrettable regardless of who initiates it.

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    That is not the core of our disagreement. The core of our disagreement is that it is moral, appropriate, and non-sexist to focus on bad behavior by the male sex, when women are also guilty of the same behavior. I believe it is immoral, inappropriate, and sexist to single out behavior by members of a particular sex when some members of the opposite sex perform the same behaviors. Whether or not one sex performs it more frequently (so far no scientific proof has been presented that one sex does it more frequently) is of interest to me, but not even marginally relevant to whether the sexism is noteworthy. I believe in equal responsibility for and protection of men and women. If a woman is robbed by a man and he takes $100, has she lost more money than a man who was robbed of $100 by a woman?

    So by your logic it would be immoral to focus on starving children in Africa because there are also starving children in India.

    You can focus on individual issues and not be discounting other, similar or otherwise, issues.

    You are now asserting that “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” is "particular" to men, while also acknowledging that women perform this same behavior. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of particular, this is to help you understand the distinction you're making using that word. Prior to this comment, you were claiming that women "are statistically more likely to experience this than men" without providing a source. So now you're going from "this behavior is more frequently performed by men" to "this behavior is particular to men." Interesting evolution of your stated views I must say. I look forward to you presenting scientific evidence in your future post.

    You also need to do better than pull out a dictionary definition. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with that.

    I did mention I think it happens more often and that I don’t have a statistical study. But I also said I don’t think it’s necessary to do a statistical analysis for the term to be valid. It doesn’t exclude other terms from existing and, again, you don’t exclude other issues by highlighting one in particular.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

    Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

    When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

    Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Please keep in mind that the majority of people here are denouncing the hateful talk that you are trying to combat, so don't let being called names by someone spewing hate-talk get to you. Focus instead on how many people here are being reasonable and rational; it's actually really nice to see so many people were just disagreeing a few minutes ago standing up to the handful of folks spewing prejudice all over the forum.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    I don't disagree... but initially, there wasn't whining about leaving the game but simply about giving feedback on a game.
    And yes, you cannot expect to be heard or listen to. Absolutely. I've posted countless tweets to different companies asking them stuff, I don't always get answers.
    But if you -do- get answers, it is expected that they at least be respectful. Giving feedback isn't creative trolling...

    Yes it is if not asked for. There's a whole lot difference giving feedback when a developer starts to have a project in mind. It can be totally unwelcomed when you are putting the final touches on something before the patch tomorrow. Just look at what the guy (I'm just going to assume from now on) was talking about with the branching stories giving the game narrative more strength as each playthrough could be completely different from another. I may be wrong as its already starting to fade from memory but that was the gist of what he was explaining. I bet you've thought that would be a welcome addition. I bet everyone has. To tell a developer something that basic as if they hadn't thought of it before? How can you not see that as insulting. And if you're a women, I can guess that kind of constructive criticism is maddening.

    While initially the whining may have been over feedback, the mistake made was 1) feedback is actually wanted on a personal twitter account and 2) that its a case of one size fits all. Because that guy was shut down suddenly no one will be listen to. There are lots of assumptions being made towards her. Like I've said before, I don't have much care for how this plays out for her. But this type of behavior from players is all over the internet. There's nothing to indicate any problems people have with the game have anything to do with how this lady feels towards one post from one player. Yet for some its almost end of the line.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

    Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

    When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

    Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

    At no point did I ever state that Saerni was trying to silence ME; Saerni said that as a strawman tactic to try to make me look bad; one which I obviously will not reply to, and found it unfortunate that you chose to.

    Instead, Saerni is defending the use of such a bigoted and hateful term to silence others. I don't find that acceptable, and that's what my statement has been about. I'm not arguing with Saerni because they are silencing me, I am arguing with Saerni because I don't believe that ANYONE should be silenced through bullying, and I believe that good people should stand up and say "Stop that" when they see it.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I could get my sister to borrow my account and write here, and she'll say the same things I do about mansplaining: It isn't a real thing. A sufficiently defensive mind with a victim complex is capable of twisting every perceived slight into being about race/gender/sexuality without any evidence to prove it. There's a series of silly terms based on hateful caricatures that demonize the mundane because of this.

    I could bring in my mother, too. She... would probably just rant about how evil the Left is, because she's old fashioned like that. But, she would also agree with my assessment.

    The overall point is this: information is information. Full stop. It doesn't matter if it is written in red, or written in blue, or spoken by a man, or spoken by a woman. There is no such thing as a unique and incommunicable perspective. Math disproves this. The ultimate conclusion of identity politics is that there is no truth, no morality, no rationality, because all is relative; a philosophy that is ultimately paradoxical, contradictory, and gives license to commit every sin it rallies against. If your first thought when hearing a statement is "I wonder if this person looks the right way to say these things", then you've failed at thought. Go back and try again.

    You misunderstood me. I’m saying you can’t leap to the conclusion someone is wrong. You should ask why someone is saying something that goes against your beliefs.

    That way you can debate then or even change your mind if it turns out, having thought about it, you were wrong. It happens to everyone.

    It isn’t that the person making the statement looks a certain way. It’s that a statement about someone’s own lived experience is valuable. I’m saying, “someone is speaking about their own life and how they experienced it and we (collectively) should carefully consider what they have to say.

    They know their own life. Asssuming I know their own life better than them would be presumptuous.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Laivine.9308Laivine.9308 Member ✭✭

    @Xenon.4537 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    So is womansplaining. What can't you understand?

    Hahaha seems legit.

  • OrbitalButt.5708OrbitalButt.5708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    [me, glowing and floating in the air, surrounded by strange energies with a third eye opening in my forehead]

    Sorry if you feel offended. Sorry if you think you've been offended but it's really your own fault. Sorry if your brain is so addled by Super Misogyny that you think you've been offended. Not my problem don't @ me

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

    Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

    When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

    Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

    At no point did I ever state that Saerni was trying to silence ME; Saerni said that as a strawman tactic to try to make me look bad; one which I obviously will not reply to, and found it unfortunate that you chose to.

    Instead, Saerni is defending the use of such a bigoted and hateful term to silence others. I don't find that acceptable, and that's what my statement has been about. I'm not arguing with Saerni because they are silencing me, I am arguing with Saerni because I don't believe that ANYONE should be silenced through bullying, and I believe that good people should stand up and say "Stop that" when they see it.

    See. This is my issue with your argument. You are accusing me of setting up a straw man WHILE conclusirily stating that the term is biased, sexist and hateful.

    It’s not a debate at this point. You just restate your conclusion without engaging in a constructive argument as to why.

    And again, you said “silence” as though the use of mansplain somehow had the power to get men to cease talking.

    I assure you. If that was the case we wouldn’t have a thread this long.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

    Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

    When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

    Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

    At no point did I ever state that Saerni was trying to silence ME; Saerni said that as a strawman tactic to try to make me look bad; one which I obviously will not reply to, and found it unfortunate that you chose to.

    Instead, Saerni is defending the use of such a bigoted and hateful term to silence others. I don't find that acceptable, and that's what my statement has been about. I'm not arguing with Saerni because they are silencing me, I am arguing with Saerni because I don't believe that ANYONE should be silenced through bullying, and I believe that good people should stand up and say "Stop that" when they see it.

    See. This is my issue with your argument. You are accusing me of setting up a straw man WHILE conclusirily stating that the term is biased, sexist and hateful.

    It’s not a debate at this point. You just restate your conclusion without engaging in a constructive argument as to why.

    And again, you said “silence” as though the use of mansplain somehow had the power to get men to cease talking.

    I assure you. If that was the case we wouldn’t have a thread this long.

    Using bigoted and derogatory terms like "mansplaining" have one purpose only: to disqualify the valid points of view of individuals based on gender, race, religion or nationality. That sort of hateful talk is never OK, it is never acceptable and there is no conversation to be had about it. The only conversation that should be had about that sort of hate-speech is how we can work together, as a people, to end it. Anything else, IMO, is simply unacceptable.

  • Centuries of racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia is not comparable to someone using the word mansplaining, yes it's a sexist term, no it doesn't do any side any favours but the two are incomparable, sexism from either end IS unacceptable but I can appreciate how the frustration of someone who faces it more often can become irritated and lose the ability to reign themselves in and make comments that really shouldn't be said, I understand it but don't defend it. In a world where there is still a massive disparity in pay between genders (google it) and where I can't hold the hand of my partner in public because at best I can expect verbal abuse at worst physical abuse, there is clearly a way to go to close the gap to make us all equal in our ability to live our lives peacefully, have equal respect and opportunity. This is not about being more oppressed than you, this is cold hard facts many of us live with, it does not detract from your rights as an individual.

  • @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    I don't disagree... but initially, there wasn't whining about leaving the game but simply about giving feedback on a game.
    And yes, you cannot expect to be heard or listen to. Absolutely. I've posted countless tweets to different companies asking them stuff, I don't always get answers.
    But if you -do- get answers, it is expected that they at least be respectful. Giving feedback isn't creative trolling...

    Yes it is if not asked for. There's a whole lot difference giving feedback when a developer starts to have a project in mind. It can be totally unwelcomed when you are putting the final touches on something before the patch tomorrow. Just look at what the guy (I'm just going to assume from now on) was talking about with the branching stories giving the game narrative more strength as each playthrough could be completely different from another. I may be wrong as its already starting to fade from memory but that was the gist of what he was explaining. I bet you've thought that would be a welcome addition. I bet everyone has. To tell a developer something that basic as if they hadn't thought of it before? How can you not see that as insulting. And if you're a women, I can guess that kind of constructive criticism is maddening.

    I don't think most people here are commenting on whether the consumer was right to comment or not. Personally I'm fine with how storytelling is doing. Of course they could do insane branching and go as far as a telltale game but it's not a reasonable expectation from a MMO. Totally agreeing with her here.
    I do have 2 personal projects, that I work on for free and both have had a decent userbase at one point of another. And yeah, it's particularly annoying when you work your rump off on something to have someone pop out of nowhere to tell you you could have done it another way. Really, really annoying, I've ranted more than once to my screen while trying to stay calm in my answers.
    All of that is of course understandable, it's human.
    I don't think people would have blown that (yet again) out of proportion if it wasn't for the gender issue. The fact is that people in general are tired of being associated to behaviors they don't agree with, and then accused by proxy. It's a poison in modern society and we don't need that in our "safe guild wars 2 environment"

    There's nothing to indicate any problems people have with the game have anything to do with how this lady feels towards one post from one player. Yet for some its almost end of the line.

    Well that's one thing I keep defending even since the "mount lootbox" drama, so I wouldn't disagree with that. Some people will find any excuse to pose a threat on the game even though we're talking here about a widespread society issue that has nothing to do with the game.

    Also very important, please vote Rytlock for Smash.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    Let me ask you a question. Is racism only discrimination against black people? Or not?
    With your logic mass white farmer killings in South Africa are not racism.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Evil Geek.6904 said:
    Centuries of racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia is not comparable to someone using the word mansplaining, yes it's a sexist term, no it doesn't do any side any favours but the two are incomparable, sexism from either end IS unacceptable but I can appreciate how the frustration of someone who faces it more often can become irritated and lose the ability to reign themselves in and make comments that really shouldn't be said, I understand it but don't defend it. In a world where there is still a massive disparity in pay between genders (google it) and where I can't hold the hand of my partner in public because at best I can expect verbal abuse at worst physical abuse, there is clearly a way to go to close the gap to make us all equal in our ability to live our lives peacefully, have equal respect and opportunity. This is not about being more oppressed than you, this is cold hard facts many of us live with, it does not detract from your rights as an individual.

    One can understand a reaction, and still denounce it. Comparing wrongs to determine which one deserves to be stood up to does no one any good. This would be like trying to compare different forms of abuse, or different forms of trauma, as if another worse example of the topic somehow takes away from the fact that it is simply a deplorable thing.

    Social Justice is a duty to stand up to bigotry and hatred whenever and wherever it occurs, not to first create a comparison chart to make sure it's worth our time. lol

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate because they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.

    Besides observable history?

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development

    https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183

    http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843

    https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM

    https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-25/games-industry-more-women-working-but-gender-bias-remains-issue/8741744

    http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey

    Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.

    I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.

    Because on average women in the gaming industry get far more hatred than men in the gaming industry. It's an unequal comparison no matter which way you slice it, and reducing it down to simply "you're saying this because it's a women" completely misses the point and the very observable trend of hatred towards any women in the gaming industry (and across media as a whole, but this is a gaming thing so let's stick to gaming). Not only that, but there is a vastly observable power inequality in society as a whole, men have far more prominent and higher positions in the industry than women, women often get discouraged from joining just because of the severe amount of hate they receive online (especially if it's gaming/nerd culture related: https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.

    Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.

    I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.

    All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.

    As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.

    Besides, not many people really know about the woman who single handedly created the code that sent the first shuttle to the moon: https://www.wired.com/2015/10/margaret-hamilton-nasa-apollo/
    Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.

    It falls flat in general but I felt this was an appropriate fact to point out specifically.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @saerni.2584 said:
    So by your logic it would be immoral to focus on starving children in Africa because there are also starving children in India.

    Incorrect, because the lack of food sources or causes of famine in different climes have different causes, whether they be nutrient-poor soil, lack of topsoil, severe weather events, poor agricultural planning by government, food theft by armed militias, excessive food exporting (this was part of the Irish Potato Famine), etc. I have no idea why you're conflating different populations in different countries with different governments and cultures. I have never done that. I have already mentioned the US when I referenced a country of over 300 million people (the country where JP is located), so it's off-topic for you to reference anything outside of the US. I am purely referencing the people and culture of the US, I apologize if that was not already abundantly clear.

    You can focus on individual issues and not be discounting other, similar or otherwise, issues.

    Correct, however, sexism towards men and sexism towards women are not separate issues. You mentioned before that race is a social construct; so is gender. Referring to men and women as separate and trying to assign separate words to describe the same behaviors is a reinforcement of the social construct. The social construct of gender is the basis and origin of sexist behaviors, nobody would be coming up with words like "mansplaining" if we didn't think of men and women as different groups of people. I think it is highly immoral to try to separate people just because of how they're born, perhaps you disagree. I notice that you did not address my point about theft by women vs. men, wherein I see the effects of such behavior to be the same and carry the same moral importance.

    You also need to do better than pull out a dictionary definition. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with that.

    "Particular" in the sense I used it means that it's specific to a group. You have not in any way shape or form proved that condescending explanations to the opposite sex are particularly male. If you would like to put forth another definition of particular, go for it.

    I did mention I think it happens more often and that I don’t have a statistical study. But I also said I don’t think it’s necessary to do a statistical analysis for the term to be valid. It doesn’t exclude other terms from existing and, again, you don’t exclude other issues by highlighting one in particular.

    You do exclude other issues when you separate people and their circumstances based on how they are born. There is no moral difference between rudeness by a man towards a woman and rudeness by a woman towards a man. Unless you would like to demonstrate why?

    One last example: the opioid epidemic in the US. People suffering from opioid addictions in the northeast and the southeast do not suffer differently. It's the same issue, caused by the same trigger: doctors overprescribing opioids, resulting in many addictions. Perhaps you might think that the superficial differences between southeasterners and northeasterners are important, such as their accents, but I do not. Same cause, same effect. No reason to separate people on the circumstances of their birth simply because of an antiquated social construct.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    So many fighting among themselves rather than focusing on the fact that we have an insane kitten [that was apparently let go from her previous job for what we can assume were these exact reasons] on Anet's writing team.

    Seriously, do a little search on who she is and what she's said, even mentioning she was glad that Totalbiscuit died.

    Not much anyone can do about it at the moment, but I think I can understand now why Arenanet hasn't said anything yet. They are probably still investigating; I feel sorry for the person tasked with reading through that hatred filled twitter account to see how much damage has been done while representing the company. Their manager owes them a beer when they are done.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Get me off this wild ride. I should have made a bingo field for this

    Bite me.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    So many fighting among themselves rather than focusing on the fact that we have an insane kitten [that was apparently let go from her previous job for what we can assume were these exact reasons] on Anet's writing team.

    Seriously, do a little search on who she is and what she's said, even mentioning she was glad that Totalbiscuit died.

    Not much anyone can do about it at the moment, but I think I can understand now why Arenanet hasn't said anything yet. They are probably still investigating; I feel sorry for the person tasked with reading through that hatred filled twitter account to see how much damage has been done while representing the company. Their manager owes them a beer when they are done.

    To be fair, the community itself has found more than enough information on how she acts, even during her previous employments.

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Again, it's not about the offense that is taken or not. The behaviour enabling it on the other hand,...

    No, I'm pretty sure I understand. She thought the guy was coming across as sexist due to his unoffered "help" to fix her work. Was he? Not to me. Just more of the same, "I'm a fan so I know how to fix the game correctly" kitten we see everyday. But I'm not her. You aren't nor is anyone else. We don't know how it read to her. We don't know if this was the first time someone on the internet offered to help her with her job. Or was it the one hundredth. Again, if you don't like her response then think I don't like that and move on. Instead people are strolling through her Twitter feed for ammunition for what exactly? I mean exactly what are people doing and what purpose? To me it looks like just another internet "fan" pitchfork in hand party. This started on Twitter and moved to Reddit and is now here. What are people wanting exactly because I know what it looks like to me. I think there's a scene in Frankenstein that showcases it.

    Keep in mind I don't know this woman and honestly don't care that much about if this affects her job or not. But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic. Its gotten even more laughable with people talking about how it affects the game like you can feel the developer disgust of men through a quest to kill some centaurs. Its like the forums have been taken over by children even more than they have been.

    I agree. If its one thing the internet has shown is that a great many gamers have an overblown sense of entitlement. I actually agree she was too harsh but there is a valid reason for that defense mechanism and that is due to the abuse developers have received by their fans. There are countless articles on the abuse developers have faced.
    https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/the-cost-of-doing-business-c09cc5cc8728

    https://medium.com/vutoken/dealing-with-abuse-inside-virtual-reality-fd57a2adff5a

  • It's such a shame that a heavy community based game has a dev that reacted like this, yea...

    no longer has my full confidence in 'it's a very positive community'

  • StinVec.3621StinVec.3621 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    Now I've seen it all.

    Found on reddit, a link to her tweet about the passing of TotalBiscuit.

    Wow...

    I've read every comment in every reddit thread on this topic (including the old thread of the community warning ANet about her when they announced her hiring), articles written on several news sites on this subject so far, all of the comments on this topic on here, read weeks of her twitter feed to get a feel for her as a person and some from longer ago that were linked in discussions, as well inspected a little of her interaction with other devs at ANet and particularly with the others who involved themselves in the situation she created, as well as inspected Inks and Durier's history and produced content to inform myself about all involved in this entire situation to see what is truth and what is not.

    ...I saw TB referenced, but I did not encounter this link. This is a very good find and I thank you for providing it as it was the final piece that made me 100%, without a doubt certain in what I determined to be the truth in this entire situation.

    (I hope many are getting screenshots of that one - if any of her tweets are going to 'disappear', I expect that to be one of if not the first.)

    WOW - Done with forums for good now! - Someone creates a thread about Pharus's light on crit effect asking if it is a bug - I get warned for being "off topic" for commenting how to use the search and pointing out threads discussing Pharus and it being an intended effect... Goodbye all. Happy gaming.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Again, it's not about the offense that is taken or not. The behaviour enabling it on the other hand,...

    No, I'm pretty sure I understand. She thought the guy was coming across as sexist due to his unoffered "help" to fix her work. Was he? Not to me. Just more of the same, "I'm a fan so I know how to fix the game correctly" kitten we see everyday. But I'm not her. You aren't nor is anyone else. We don't know how it read to her. We don't know if this was the first time someone on the internet offered to help her with her job. Or was it the one hundredth. Again, if you don't like her response then think I don't like that and move on. Instead people are strolling through her Twitter feed for ammunition for what exactly? I mean exactly what are people doing and what purpose? To me it looks like just another internet "fan" pitchfork in hand party. This started on Twitter and moved to Reddit and is now here. What are people wanting exactly because I know what it looks like to me. I think there's a scene in Frankenstein that showcases it.

    Keep in mind I don't know this woman and honestly don't care that much about if this affects her job or not. But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic. Its gotten even more laughable with people talking about how it affects the game like you can feel the developer disgust of men through a quest to kill some centaurs. Its like the forums have been taken over by children even more than they have been.

    I agree. If its one thing the internet has shown is that a great many gamers have an overblown sense of entitlement. I actually agree she was too harsh but there is a valid reason for that defense mechanism and that is due to the abuse developers have received by their fans. There are countless articles on the abuse developers have faced.
    https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/the-cost-of-doing-business-c09cc5cc8728

    https://medium.com/vutoken/dealing-with-abuse-inside-virtual-reality-fd57a2adff5a

    And the point of those links for this discussion is? Every business which works with general population must be ready for abuse more so in the Internet.
    Don't want to have feedback? Use blogspot with comments off.
    And abuse is not even a problem here. JP posted in public media (twitter) her thoughts about story in MMOs. Of course ppl will have opinions and (as it;s idea of twits) want to shere them. In this situation ther was absolutely no sexism no abuse only an opinion and invite for an interesting conversation, nothing more.
    The answer though. It's a disaster and that's more of an abuse than a polite initial statement.

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    So many fighting among themselves rather than focusing on the fact that we have an insane kitten [that was apparently let go from her previous job for what we can assume were these exact reasons] on Anet's writing team.

    Seriously, do a little search on who she is and what she's said, even mentioning she was glad that Totalbiscuit died.

    Celebrating that someone has died to cancer is the kind of behaviour that lacks any sense of empathy or ability to understand human feelings. The idea that my money is being spent to support such person is currently making me feel sick, and can't imagine how a game studio can accept such behaviour for any of their employees.

    From now on I will continuously mention to people that Anet is the employer of people that celebrate when people die to cancer, and that is the kind of co-worker that the developers has.

    I agree thats wrong but many of these youtubers incite their fans to harass and bully developers. Do you consider that acceptable behavior?

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    This guy wasn't throwing kitten and wasn't crying. He wasn't explaining anything, he was offering a different opinion.

    Opinion of what though? Her work? Gee, how could that ever be taken the wrong way? At no point did she seem to be stuck and need assistance. Now if he had worded it so it was more of I wish we could have this because then it lead to this no one would have found reason for complaint. But disagreeing and explaining how better it would be if done this way is never ever going to end well. If he had done that, she might have gone into why they can't do that if she thought he lacked the knowledge of the limitations she works within. But it seems the assumption was she was the one lacking knowledge.

    This is why she should've thought twice before lashing out. Companies and their devs have no control over unreasonable "fan" behaviour. They have complete control over their own.

    And how have companies found the best and most effective way of dealing with it? By simply shutting it all down. This is why we always have these multiple "we are listening" campaigns from companies. There's an overreaction from fans so the company just gives them nothing to react to outside of the game itself. I think we can bet on silence for some time after this. Now I haven't thought it was a good idea to engage fans for many years. This doesn't mean I don't like when they do. But there's always some fan that creates some crapstorm that shuts it down soon after. This is a bunch of whining over nothing. It solves nothing and in the end really means nothing.

    I mean if you really believe that the internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans, chasing them throughout social media, then I guess that's the way you see it.

    I don't care for this generalisation. I was talking about one instance.

    That's not generalization. That is what so much of the internet has become. I never had heard the term social justice warrior until some video was complaining about it. This one instance is an example of the thousands out there. When you go to someone's house, her twitter feed, you don't tell them how to paint the walls. There was a lack of respect and it drew a response. I'm fairly confident he didn't mean to but I don't know. So many don't know their place and as fans we definitely have a place and we need to stop screaming and accept that.

    Finally, I'm not on either side of the fence. I find this kind of behaviour regrettable regardless of who initiates it.

    I haven't been happy with fandom for years now. And I'm certainly not saying I haven't participated in such entitlement complaints. I remember when Star Trek Enterprise was on. Man, I hated that show because it wasn't what I thought it should be (I really didn't think it should be at all). Message boards were full of those that loved it and those that didn't. While I know we never had an effect on it, I did the only thing I could to protest it and not watch it. And complain about it in the forums. We got what we wanted. No Trek for years on television. After that I realized gee, I really have no power at all with my complaints since to give me what I wanted was to give me nothing. So the films started coming out and people complained. Discovery came out and people complained (which was kinda funny because you actually had to pay to see that show so who was the joke on?). In any case, I don't have anything to do with that fandom because of how toxic fans can be. Same thing with various shows, movies, games, comics, what have you. Now I just appreciate the things I like and keep silent most of the time. I suppose its a bit sad that I'd rather have this conversation than play the game itself. In any event, fans have only gotten worse. Especially with the good old death threats we'd never ever think to use back then. You have to wade through so much just pure cry baby kitten to find something good on the internet and I really dislike seeing this same behavior in the GW2 social media circles. But its been here and getting worse ever since I started playing. I just want companies to create and stop worry about fans. They just aren't worth it. Earlier this year Star Wars fans showed how bad they can be. This is really nothing. A word really. And it seems some are bound and determined to pull GW2 down the same sewer with a few Twitter posts.

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Again, it's not about the offense that is taken or not. The behaviour enabling it on the other hand,...

    No, I'm pretty sure I understand. She thought the guy was coming across as sexist due to his unoffered "help" to fix her work. Was he? Not to me. Just more of the same, "I'm a fan so I know how to fix the game correctly" kitten we see everyday. But I'm not her. You aren't nor is anyone else. We don't know how it read to her. We don't know if this was the first time someone on the internet offered to help her with her job. Or was it the one hundredth. Again, if you don't like her response then think I don't like that and move on. Instead people are strolling through her Twitter feed for ammunition for what exactly? I mean exactly what are people doing and what purpose? To me it looks like just another internet "fan" pitchfork in hand party. This started on Twitter and moved to Reddit and is now here. What are people wanting exactly because I know what it looks like to me. I think there's a scene in Frankenstein that showcases it.

    Keep in mind I don't know this woman and honestly don't care that much about if this affects her job or not. But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic. Its gotten even more laughable with people talking about how it affects the game like you can feel the developer disgust of men through a quest to kill some centaurs. Its like the forums have been taken over by children even more than they have been.

    I agree. If its one thing the internet has shown is that a great many gamers have an overblown sense of entitlement. I actually agree she was too harsh but there is a valid reason for that defense mechanism and that is due to the abuse developers have received by their fans. There are countless articles on the abuse developers have faced.
    https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/the-cost-of-doing-business-c09cc5cc8728

    https://medium.com/vutoken/dealing-with-abuse-inside-virtual-reality-fd57a2adff5a

    And the point of those links for this discussion is? Every business which works with general population must be ready for abuse more so in the Internet.
    Don't want to have feedback? Use blogspot with comments off.
    And abuse is nit in even a problem here. JP posted in public media (twitter) her thoughts about story in MMOs. Of coungfor an interesting conversation, nothing more.
    The answer though. It's a disaster and that's more of an abuse than a polite initial statement.

    I see you think its fine for developers to be threatened and harassed by entitled gamers who demand to be catered to.

    I agree what she said was wrong but it goes both ways.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    So many fighting among themselves rather than focusing on the fact that we have an insane kitten [that was apparently let go from her previous job for what we can assume were these exact reasons] on Anet's writing team.

    Seriously, do a little search on who she is and what she's said, even mentioning she was glad that Totalbiscuit died.

    Celebrating that someone has died to cancer is the kind of behaviour that lacks any sense of empathy or ability to understand human feelings. The idea that my money is being spent to support such person is currently making me feel sick, and can't imagine how a game studio can accept such behaviour for any of their employees.

    From now on I will continuously mention to people that Anet is the employer of people that celebrate when people die to cancer, and that is the kind of co-worker that the developers has.

    I agree thats wrong but many of these youtubers incite their fans to harass and bully developers. Do you consider that acceptable behavior?

    "Hey they throw kitten on us, let's do the same" argument.

This discussion has been closed.
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