Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?

Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

<13

Comments

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Alchimist.4738Alchimist.4738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2018

    Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    MAJOR SPOILERS
    It doesn't remove magic from the world, it distributes too much into it. The Dragons work like energy reservoirs in a closed system.

    Excess magic of any kind is toxic, especially arcane energy which is essentially radiation (Thaumanova, Crucible of Eternity), and some forms of magic are just plain unstable in high quantities - see the various magic-infused elementals, anomalies and singularities.

    I hope this helps to explain things.

    @Alchimist.4738 said:
    Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

    Well, IF:
    1. The Magic contained by the dragons + free magic contained in Tyria = constant and
    2. All the magic in the system becoming free magic will destroy the world, THEN

    It is obvious that for the forming of Tyria (the "birth" of the world) we can have the following scenarios:
    1. The magic belongs natively to Tyria but being too much the magic should destroy the world. And in this case the dragons appears. That means the dragons are older than Tyria. And the status of "force of nature" is not enough to describe them. They are much more gods. Real gods. A question remains: Did the dragons create Tyria? If YES, then our search is over. The Dragons are the real gods. If NO, that means they were created before Tyria with a purpose - to keep the world to not be destroyed by its own magic. In this case the creator of the Dragon is the true God (or Gods if the Creation was a collective act). Anyhow, in this scenario we have nothing to do. We should learn to live with the dragons without killing them. We can (in the best case) replace them with something playing the same role. Why this situation? Because the Dragons either created Tyria for them and the magic mechanism was designed to protect them OR they were created with the purpose of keeping the balance of magic.

    **2. The magic does not belong to Tyria and it was brought at one certain moment by someone or something (a cataclysm / event etc). ** Being so related with the cycle of magic, that means the dragons does not belong to Tyria either. They come in Tyria after the world formed. And started to do what we know - gathering the magic when active then releasing it when sleeping. In this case we have a new option: To find a way to gather the excess of magic and to release it to where it initially come: In the Mist / Space / .... etc. This opens the possibility to kill the dragons.

    In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.
    Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the amount of magic in Tyria is constant, that raises the question of how Tyria ever survived long enough for the Elder Dragons to be born, unless they replaced a pre-existing system of balance. I guess Anet could argue that the dragons actually pre-date Tyria and were born in primordial chaos, but that's going to be a hard sell.

    If it isn't constant and it's more a question of sources and sinks (with the dragons acting as sinks), then what are the sources?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

    I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

    But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

    Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Kalocin.5982Kalocin.5982 Member ✭✭✭

    To keep it simple, the Elder Dragons are sentient nuclear bombs. Putting them back to sleep is resetting their detonation timer.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The elder dragons are both good are bad.

    They keep magic flowing and prevent magic from overflowing the environment so there isn't too much ambient magic all over the world. When that fails, you get horrible environmental disasters and ley-infested creatures that see hallucinations and attack everything on sight.

    But they also hog too much magic in one go, depleting the world of magic and destroying and killing anything in their path.

    The Vigil just wanted to destroy them. Which is a very bad idea alone.

    The Order of Whispers believe that killing them was simply impossible, and that the only option was putting them back to sleep.

    And the Durmand Priory knew that killing them was a bad idea, but that leaving them alive was worse, so they had to be eliminated. We later learn they had contacts with Glint's legacy through Ogden. But apparently any information on Glint's plan was super-duper top secret.

    In Kesho we learn the specifics of the plan, but we also learn that those who started it are gone, corrupted by Kralkatorrik.

    The solution now is replacing them with entities that will not absorb magic until they are full, and then slowly release it, but with entities that will be constantly absorving and releasing magic, keeping it flowing at a steady amount of magic in the ambient and preventing it from overflowing.

    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

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  • Invidia.9074Invidia.9074 Member ✭✭

    I wonder if it has to be a draconic replacement. Maybe a properly tweaked Bloodstone could fill the role? That would make it definitely easier...

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

    Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

    Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

    So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

    it's not just a matter of magic balance, Taimi's simulation showed Tyria "breaking" suggesting that the world will be destroyed.

    also the vision provided by Eye of Janthir suggests a cataclysm.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haha, thanks for the replies everyone. Can't believe how many plot points I've flat out forgotten...!

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Spoilers

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    What we need is something that could suck in all of these overflowing magic so it wont destroy anything more.

    Since Jormag and Primordus falled back to sleep once again and we still know nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.
    Kralkatorrik needs to be taken down ASAP since he's so powerful now after sucking in Balthazar's overflown magic after we defeated him in Elona.

    Pretty sure the Living World S4 ending will be awesome, 😁😁

    | Separatist | Nightmare Court | Inquest | White Mantle | Sunspears | Loyalists | Ascalon | Kryta | Ebonhawke | Elona | Istan | Kourna | Vabbi | Cantha | Luxon | Kurzick | 71 characters | "Rally to me, Ascalonians!" "Keep Ascalon in your heart." "May the Gods protect you." "Be blessed by the Six."

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

    Imagine you have a table, and on that table is a bowl filled with water.
    In this example, the Elder Dragons are the six legs of the table; the bowl of water is magic.
    Cut off some table legs. What happens?

    One big goddamned mess.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

    Killing Elder Dragons doesn't remove magic. It adds it - too much of it.

    To not use metaphors and to instead quote an NPC from Season 2:

    Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

    Thaumanova and Bloodstone Fen are perfect examples of "too much magic" in the world. And killing the Elder Dragons just keeps adding magic into the world. But that's just the surface problem. There is a second reason to not kill Elder Dragons: The All.

    The All is literally the functionality of the world. And the Elder Dragons are an integal part of that system. Killing the Elder Dragons throws that system out of wack, resulting in the world dying off.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The Human Gods and the Bloodstones also hold magic in a similar way, which has also begun to be released. This is especially dangerous since in these cases, we're introducing external magic into the closed system of Tyria, stressing an already failing system.

    The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    Besides, there's similarly nothing to say that Tyria's magic is a closed system. We see a multitude of rifts from the Mists, which would theoretically be adding magic into the world. It's entirely possible they or something else also removes magic (or magic suffers from entropy at a relatively equal rate to these rifts adding magic).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.
    Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

    Everything traces its origins back to The Mists, and it's likely entire planets would too.

    Just because there is no Abrahamic monotheistic god, doesn't mean all other gods are false. Similarly, Kormir did not use a "device" (I don't know where you got that from), she was literally given a magical blessing from the other five gods. A divine gift by a divine being is the only way for a mortal to absorb enough magic to become a god.

    "The gods appeared to us and gave Kormir a special, secret blessing. We had hoped for more direct involvement in our battle against a god, but we held our heads high and charged into battle with our ultimate foe. We fought with all of our might, all of our power and passion. In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory. At the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria. In a moment of heroism unmatched before or since, Kormir threw herself into the path of this dark power. The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right. Kormir sacrificed her mortal life to save us all and was reborn as the Goddess of Truth. Abaddon was dead, but there was still work to do. With Kormir's passing from the mortal realm, the duty falls to me to assist those in need. My future lies out there, on the road, fighting for justice and for truth."
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls

    An asura cannot copy such a thing.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    Tequatl was replacing Zhaitan. He's canonically dead as of Season 1 (Rox even lugged its tail around after confirming the kill).

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

    I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

    But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

    Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

    I similarly agree. I think it was a bad move on ArenaNet's part to immediately kill off (or even put to sleep) an Elder Dragon. I feel like the first release should have focused on a lesser villain that was a threat to enough of the races (Ulgoth could have filled that role rather easily, since he was already hating on both norn and humans, and through the White Mantle could have pulled in Sinister Triad backing for a brief show of White Mantle, Nightmare Court, and Inquest hostilities (thus bringing in asura and sylvari seamlessly) without eliminating them entirely), and hadn't used Jormag to relocate the norn but instead have him and Zhaitan as distant, barely-felt threats just like Primordus was.

    But what's done is done.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    I think your right with Balthazar as he didn’t introduce magic that wasn’t already there.

    Abaddon on the other hand played a larger role with causing imbalance upon his death and his power being absorbed by Kormir.

    According to Kormir in Facing the Truth:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.
    Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

    It seems Abaddon added additional magic to the magic pool in Tyria and apparently it wasn’t just a trickle of magic, but a surge of power which upended the balance of magic. Which is interesting into itself, because it seems Primordus gained some of Abaddon’s god magic too.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

    She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

    Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

    If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

    She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

    Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

    If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

    Except what was said next was that the surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria.

    Upended: to turn something upside down, to change position, turn, spin, overturn

    Overturn the balance of magic in Tyria? How could it do that, unless Abaddon’s magic was seeping in.

    Hero: Abaddon is breaking up!
    Kormir: Incredible! All that knowledge!
    Hero: It's running wild! It will destroy everything!
    Kormir: I can contain the power—
    Hero: Kormir! No!

    Before Abaddon was killed, magic was at balance, the dragon’s were there doing their job. When Abaddon was releasing his magic he caused Primordus to stir. What would make Primordus begin to stir? Magic. Just like how Scarlet sent a large dose of Leyline magic toward Mordremoth.

    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

    Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

    I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

    Key word is that it would have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it didn't yet. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

    Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

    I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

    Key word is that it would have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it didn't yet. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

    I guess we have more plot clarification points for the next Ama, Konig, thank you for your discussion.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    If anything, making them so integral to existence only strengthens the ties to Lovecraft in how hopeless it is to struggle against them. What has ruined the Elder Dragons, in my opinion, is our ability to destroy them as well as Anet's characterization of Mordremoth. Mordremoth thought too much like a human to exist as a force of nature or cosmic entity. It's hard to fear Mordremoth as some unknowable monster when he is characterized as any other human villain. I just hope Anet won't repeat this mistake with the remaining Elder Dragons.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

    I honestly hope we don't go either of those routes. Not only would it utterly destroy what remains of the integrity of the gods' lore if any of the gods aside Kormir (and only Kormir because of this guy) go evil. They might be able to stretch Lyssa into it given her lore from the NF manual, but that's still a worse stretch than Balthaddon going evil.

    And it seems silly to do yet another "evil emperor" subplot (because let's face it, if it isn't a god or dragon, Anet's not going to treat it as a main villain anymore; they suffer from the dragonball villain complex - that is, "next villain will be 10x stronger than the previous one" kind of stuff). Especially since there's no real reason to make the current emperor evil. Especially since they welcomed the multi-racial foreigners known as Zephyrites for trade (per Festival of the Four Winds subtle-not-so-subtle commentary). So they're not full out xenophobe (anymore). Unless they go and make either Usoku or Xun Rao some 150/250 year old villain, but that would just be a repeat of Lazarus and Joko.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

    I honestly hope we don't go either of those routes. Not only would it utterly destroy what remains of the integrity of the gods' lore if any of the gods aside Kormir (and only Kormir because of this guy) go evil. They might be able to stretch Lyssa into it given her lore from the NF manual, but that's still a worse stretch than Balthaddon going evil.

    And it seems silly to do yet another "evil emperor" subplot (because let's face it, if it isn't a god or dragon, Anet's not going to treat it as a main villain anymore; they suffer from the dragonball villain complex - that is, "next villain will be 10x stronger than the previous one" kind of stuff). Especially since there's no real reason to make the current emperor evil. Especially since they welcomed the multi-racial foreigners known as Zephyrites for trade (per Festival of the Four Winds subtle-not-so-subtle commentary). So they're not full out xenophobe (anymore). Unless they go and make either Usoku or Xun Rao some 150/250 year old villain, but that would just be a repeat of Lazarus and Joko.

    They spent a lot of time with GW beyond Winds of Change setting up the ministry of purity to be the bad guys, which then created this xenophobic nation with it’s the new Emperor. The ministry was never really defeated either, just it’s current leader. Then they pushing all non humans out and conquering the Luzon and the Kurzicks.

    It seems like they are trying to create the dragon empire into a villain.

    As for the emperor, I imagine it would be a descendant of Usoku, rather then Usoku himself.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    I would disagree. Firstly, because Winds of Change came after the xenophobia in terms of design, it was created more as an explanation for what would happen. The xenophobia itself was pretty obviously done to explain why it's inaccessible in the base GW2 game, and so as to allow a lot of leeway for how they want to change it for later with the excuse of "no contact."

    Elona was very much done the same - Joko conquers and Elona gets cut off because of such, presenting a situation of no contact allowing Anet to alter the society as they see fit "at a later date" while simultaneously explaining "why no Elona in base game". The main difference being that Joko was a pre-established villain with pre-established goals of conquering Elona, whereas they had invented a villain for Cantha's xenophobia after determining it would get cut off.

    They even seeded an, albeit vague, reason to believe Cantha's xenophobia lasted only one or two generations in the very first instance we were told of Cantha's xenophobia. It was vague enough that they could dismiss it if they wanted to make Cantha still xenophobic, while presented as a perfect thing to point to for why they actually weren't xenophobic for quite some time. That reason being:

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    If Cantha was truly xenophobic, there'd be no sailors reaching the shores of Tyria, a good few hundred miles away from the Battle Isles let alone Cantha. It's too great a distance, suggesting that at least for some time, Canthan sailors were trying to reach Tyria. Unless they were an invading fleet or refugees, they'd be merchants and ambassadors trying to make contact.

    Mind you, this was partially retconned by the release of the game in the form of the tengu's history of arriving after Orr's rise (and at the same time it should be noted that Zhaitan and Jormag's rising were swapped in the Movement compared to the game).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isolationism doesn’t have to imply xenophobia.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alga.6498 said:
    the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.

    he's awake, his tomfoolery is why the largos and quaggan went land inwards.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Isolationism doesn’t have to imply xenophobia.

    Expunging other species and ethnicities from your territory, however, does.

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:
    the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.

    he's awake, his tomfoolery is why the largos and quaggan went land inwards.

    And the krait, and the karka.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I would disagree. Firstly, because Winds of Change came after the xenophobia in terms of design, it was created more as an explanation for what would happen. The xenophobia itself was pretty obviously done to explain why it's inaccessible in the base GW2 game, and so as to allow a lot of leeway for how they want to change it for later with the excuse of "no contact."

    Elona was very much done the same - Joko conquers and Elona gets cut off because of such, presenting a situation of no contact allowing Anet to alter the society as they see fit "at a later date" while simultaneously explaining "why no Elona in base game". The main difference being that Joko was a pre-established villain with pre-established goals of conquering Elona, whereas they had invented a villain for Cantha's xenophobia after determining it would get cut off.

    They even seeded an, albeit vague, reason to believe Cantha's xenophobia lasted only one or two generations in the very first instance we were told of Cantha's xenophobia. It was vague enough that they could dismiss it if they wanted to make Cantha still xenophobic, while presented as a perfect thing to point to for why they actually weren't xenophobic for quite some time. That reason being:

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    If Cantha was truly xenophobic, there'd be no sailors reaching the shores of Tyria, a good few hundred miles away from the Battle Isles let alone Cantha. It's too great a distance, suggesting that at least for some time, Canthan sailors were trying to reach Tyria. Unless they were an invading fleet or refugees, they'd be merchants and ambassadors trying to make contact.

    Mind you, this was partially retconned by the release of the game in the form of the tengu's history of arriving after Orr's rise (and at the same time it should be noted that Zhaitan and Jormag's rising were swapped in the Movement compared to the game).

    It is possible that everything is Cantha is now all good and things have changed for the better, however it would feel like such a cop out and a big waste of Winds of Change, like the story to come after would be pointless.

    If they wanted Cantha isolated purely, they could really only need to explain that Cantha was isolated by Zhaitan rising.

    In the same article though to explain the sailors on shore it did say people could leave Cantha if they didn’t agree to their ways.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    cantha is going to be a flooded wasteland thanks to our sea dragon friend.

    can't have human fatigue after all

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    cantha is going to be a flooded wasteland thanks to our sea dragon friend.

    can't have human fatigue after all

    Hard to say, we could head back to Cantha and find out there is a new faction war occurring with the DSD somehow playing apart of the local catastrophe.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    The entire premise of the "sylvari are dragon minions" is that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, as not only are sylvari made by the Pale Tree (a good version of Blighting Trees), but only a dragon champion can produce so many dragon minions (aka sylvari) so quickly. And given that she has free will, she has to be purified.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    Except that Taimi never knew how Omadd did it, she even admitted such after re-purposing it. The machine is destroyed and it's not coming back. As for Snaff controlling Kralkatorrik - that's not exactly true; what Snaff did was temporarily cause muscle spasms with immense concentration. Which is a very far cry from controlling an Elder Dragon. And 100% not a viable solution to "the Elder Dragons want to consume the world" issue.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    In Season 3, Taimi explains that if "one more dragon" dies, then The All falls irrevocably out of balance. At the end of Path of Fire, when in formed that Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic, she states that Kralk's power boost will only further imbalance The All.

    Meaning that even if there were four Elder Dragons, but one was far stronger than the other three, The All would still be imbalanced and the world would be destroyed.

    So that means, the end solution requires a bare minimum of "four Elder Dragons of equal power". Unless ArenaNet feels like retconning themselves.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    The entire premise of the "sylvari are dragon minions" is that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, as not only are sylvari made by the Pale Tree (a good version of Blighting Trees), but only a dragon champion can produce so many dragon minions (aka sylvari) so quickly. And given that she has free will, she has to be purified.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    Except that Taimi never knew how Omadd did it, she even admitted such after re-purposing it. The machine is destroyed and it's not coming back. As for Snaff controlling Kralkatorrik - that's not exactly true; what Snaff did was temporarily cause muscle spasms with immense concentration. Which is a very far cry from controlling an Elder Dragon. And 100% not a viable solution to "the Elder Dragons want to consume the world" issue.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    In Season 3, Taimi explains that if "one more dragon" dies, then The All falls irrevocably out of balance. At the end of Path of Fire, when in formed that Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic, she states that Kralk's power boost will only further imbalance The All.

    Meaning that even if there were four Elder Dragons, but one was far stronger than the other three, The All would still be imbalanced and the world would be destroyed.

    So that means, the end solution requires a bare minimum of "four Elder Dragons of equal power". Unless ArenaNet feels like retconning themselves.

    1. Again, at no point was it hinted the Avatar was a Dragon Champion, especially when not even she says anything about it once you figure out the truth and not even she knows what the Dream is.

    2. The book flatout said that Snaff controlled Kralkatorrik for a moment.

    3. The Shadow of the Dragon from the Sylvari starting mission is revealed to be Mordremoth's Dragon Champion and at no point has a Champion been humanoid, they're always draconic.

    4. If she was able to modify Omadd's machine, it can be assumed that she can eventually learn to replicate it. She's the almighty progeny that makes almighty Zojja look like a kid that doesn't know what 2+2, the girl that figured out the Dragons' weaknesses, how to exploit it AND that she could modify a device she mentions she has no idea how it was made.

    5. It was mentioned that Tyria HAD the Dragons as the way to regulate magic for millenia, not that they could not be replaced. Kormir replaced Abaddon as a God [meaning even these "Gods" can be replaced, by mortals no less] and Glint's plan was to replace Kralkatorrik with Aurene and Vlast, this means they CAN be replaced.

    6. Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons, the Bloodstone and Balthazar's godly magic [with Aurene having EVEN MORE by eating Joko and she's not even an adult dragon yet]. If having only 1 of them too powerful would throw everything into chaos, then it would've happened the moment we killed Balthazar, but it didn't. This kinda implies that one Dragon actually could shoulder the burden, at least temporarily [and with Aurene having Joko's magic, we can assume she could also Awaken like he does, which could translate to Aurene reviving and controlling the dead Dragons to keep them in check].

    7. Taimi's "if one more dragon dies" comment was before Balthazar absorbed Primordus and Jormag's magic, this was before we learned of Glint's Legacy and that she wanted to replace Kralk with her children. Again, this implies they CAN be replaced and the fact Glint had children very heavily implies other Champions could have them too.

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I actually like it! That plit twist was one of the best things the writers came up with IMHO. Big bad dragons that needed to be killed was kind of cliche to begin with, but oh look, if you elave them alone they destroy the world, if you kill them they also destroy the world. Our heroes had to find a way to survive despite these impossible odds.

    However, it could've been better written after that, though. Simply putting two dragons to sleep at the same time with the machine from Taimi's was, well... lazy. I'm no writer of any sorts, but from a player perspective, that left a lot to be desired.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    1. Again, at no point was it hinted the Avatar was a Dragon Champion, especially when not even she says anything about it once you figure out the truth and not even she knows what the Dream is.
    3. The Shadow of the Dragon from the Sylvari starting mission is revealed to be Mordremoth's Dragon Champion and at no point has a Champion been humanoid, they're always draconic.

    This is so wrong it's hilarious. Did you even play through the personal story? Do you not remember the explicitly stated dragon champions called Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan? If you're going to make a repeated argument, you could at least spend 1 minute to fact check yourself.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion

    I just counted 54 dragon champions that are neither dragon nor wyvern. Of these, you got the three Mordrem Guard Commanders, Hareth, Diarmid, and Adryn, the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitans, Herbozah the Wicked, and the Branded Devourer Queen, all of which are explicitly stated to be dragon champions. One doesn't have to be draconic to be a dragon champion.

    A dragon champion appears to be defined by three primary aspects: 1) creates minions at a far faster rate, 2) intelligent and/or powerful, 3) leads an army of minions into battle (and subsequently, if killed in battle, the minions tend to scatter like seen with Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows novel, or every dragon champion killed in Edge of Destiny, none of which were draconic in appearance).

    And when, exactly, do we ever talk to the Avatar post-S2 finale? Knight of the Thorn achievement line where she's still so weak that she can only give thanks for restoring Caladbolg?

    The Pale Tree doesn't need to say it. It's point blank obvious given the fact that sylvari are dragon minions, and she made them.. It's stated time and time again (just two examples) that only dragon champions can produce minions at a fast rate. Which is exactly what the Pale Tree does.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    2. The book flatout said that Snaff controlled Kralkatorrik for a moment.

    Yes, controlled it by creating muscle spasms. Not by directing its movement. Snaff made its legs and wings crumple, like what happens when one has a muscle spasm. If Snaff had actual control over Kralkatorrik, he would have landed Kralkatorrik right in front of the rest of DE and laid him down with his chest exposed for Rytlock to stab the dragon with the spear. Instead, all he could do is fold the wings and prevent Kralkatorrik from catching his landing with his legs.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    4. If she was able to modify Omadd's machine, it can be assumed that she can eventually learn to replicate it. She's the almighty progeny that makes almighty Zojja look like a kid that doesn't know what 2+2, the girl that figured out the Dragons' weaknesses, how to exploit it AND that she could modify a device she mentions she has no idea how it was made.

    If she had more time to study how it was made, maybe. But that's no longer possible as it is a wreck of non-working metal scraps at the heart of a volcano (which, in all honesty, probably melted the metal scraps within moments of its explosion), and Taimi had - as I stated - said that she didn't know how it worked when she added it to her "Taimi's Machine".

    Taimi may have become a bit of an Ex Machina know-it-all during Season 3, but she's not capable of doing the impossible all the same. The destruction of Taimi's Machine was a pretty blatantly obvious and deliberate way to write Omadd's Machine out of the story for good so that it didn't become another Scepter of Orr or Magdaer.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    5. It was mentioned that Tyria HAD the Dragons as the way to regulate magic for millenia, not that they could not be replaced. Kormir replaced Abaddon as a God [meaning even these "Gods" can be replaced, by mortals no less] and Glint's plan was to replace Kralkatorrik with Aurene and Vlast, this means they CAN be replaced.
    6. Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons, the Bloodstone and Balthazar's godly magic [with Aurene having EVEN MORE by eating Joko and she's not even an adult dragon yet]. If having only 1 of them too powerful would throw everything into chaos, then it would've happened the moment we killed Balthazar, but it didn't. This kinda implies that one Dragon actually could shoulder the burden, at least temporarily [and with Aurene having Joko's magic, we can assume she could also Awaken like he does, which could translate to Aurene reviving and controlling the dead Dragons to keep them in check].
    7. Taimi's "if one more dragon dies" comment was before Balthazar absorbed Primordus and Jormag's magic, this was before we learned of Glint's Legacy and that she wanted to replace Kralk with her children. Again, this implies they CAN be replaced and the fact Glint had children very heavily implies other Champions could have them too.

    Never said they couldn't be replaced. I said that based on Season 3 and Path of Fire, there needs a minimum of four dragons alive at any one point, be they originals or replacements.

    Kralkatorrik doesn't have all of Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's power, and even less of Jormag's and Primordus' since those two never lost all their power and what was stolen got split between Kralk and Aurene. Balthazar had no godly magic, that was stripped from him pre-imprisonment - his power was all from that Bloodstone and Primordus and Jormag. Kralkatorrik is stronger than any one Elder Dragon right now, but only after Balthazar's death.

    Pact Commander: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

    Kralkatorrik's not at the point where his overpowered nature would throw the world out of further imbalance, but his increased power does bring that imbalance far closer.

    And no, one Elder Dragon cannot "shoulder the burden". THREE cannot:

    Taimi: Have you thought about...you know...?
    Pact Commander: There's really no other way to kill Primordus or Jormag?
    Taimi: They're each other's weakness. Like Mordremoth's was its mind. And without my machine...
    Taimi: I don't think they're going to duke it out physically. Feels like that would be a disaster anyway.
    Pact Commander: I can't believe we're seriously considering saving them.
    Taimi: I know, but magic is so out of whack. If one more goes, all of Tyria might just collapse in on itself.
    Pact Commander: If...IF we keep them alive, how do we keep them from killing us all anyway?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)#My_story

    Balthazar absorbing Primordus and Jormag's magic doesn't matter for kitten, because in the end, Primordus and Jormag are still alive, they're still part of The All, so they're still helping to maintain balance. We're still at four living Elder Dragons tied to The All.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    It's been vaguely hinted that Vlast's "weapon", whatever it is, might be able to change the fundamental rules of reality. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the spear, nor Aurene, so we don't really know what it was. Maybe a repaired Staff of the Mists, maybe something else.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    1. Again, at no point was it hinted the Avatar was a Dragon Champion, especially when not even she says anything about it once you figure out the truth and not even she knows what the Dream is.
    3. The Shadow of the Dragon from the Sylvari starting mission is revealed to be Mordremoth's Dragon Champion and at no point has a Champion been humanoid, they're always draconic.

    This is so wrong it's hilarious. Did you even play through the personal story? Do you not remember the explicitly stated dragon champions called Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan? If you're going to make a repeated argument, you could at least spend 1 minute to fact check yourself.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion

    I just counted 54 dragon champions that are neither dragon nor wyvern. Of these, you got the three Mordrem Guard Commanders, Hareth, Diarmid, and Adryn, the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitans, Herbozah the Wicked, and the Branded Devourer Queen, all of which are explicitly stated to be dragon champions. One doesn't have to be draconic to be a dragon champion.

    A dragon champion appears to be defined by three primary aspects: 1) creates minions at a far faster rate, 2) intelligent and/or powerful, 3) leads an army of minions into battle (and subsequently, if killed in battle, the minions tend to scatter like seen with Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows novel, or every dragon champion killed in Edge of Destiny, none of which were draconic in appearance).

    And when, exactly, do we ever talk to the Avatar post-S2 finale? Knight of the Thorn achievement line where she's still so weak that she can only give thanks for restoring Caladbolg?

    The Pale Tree doesn't need to say it. It's point blank obvious given the fact that sylvari are dragon minions, and she made them.. It's stated time and time again (just two examples) that only dragon champions can produce minions at a fast rate. Which is exactly what the Pale Tree does.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    2. The book flatout said that Snaff controlled Kralkatorrik for a moment.

    Yes, controlled it by creating muscle spasms. Not by directing its movement. Snaff made its legs and wings crumple, like what happens when one has a muscle spasm. If Snaff had actual control over Kralkatorrik, he would have landed Kralkatorrik right in front of the rest of DE and laid him down with his chest exposed for Rytlock to stab the dragon with the spear. Instead, all he could do is fold the wings and prevent Kralkatorrik from catching his landing with his legs.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    4. If she was able to modify Omadd's machine, it can be assumed that she can eventually learn to replicate it. She's the almighty progeny that makes almighty Zojja look like a kid that doesn't know what 2+2, the girl that figured out the Dragons' weaknesses, how to exploit it AND that she could modify a device she mentions she has no idea how it was made.

    If she had more time to study how it was made, maybe. But that's no longer possible as it is a wreck of non-working metal scraps at the heart of a volcano (which, in all honesty, probably melted the metal scraps within moments of its explosion), and Taimi had - as I stated - said that she didn't know how it worked when she added it to her "Taimi's Machine".

    Taimi may have become a bit of an Ex Machina know-it-all during Season 3, but she's not capable of doing the impossible all the same. The destruction of Taimi's Machine was a pretty blatantly obvious and deliberate way to write Omadd's Machine out of the story for good so that it didn't become another Scepter of Orr or Magdaer.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    5. It was mentioned that Tyria HAD the Dragons as the way to regulate magic for millenia, not that they could not be replaced. Kormir replaced Abaddon as a God [meaning even these "Gods" can be replaced, by mortals no less] and Glint's plan was to replace Kralkatorrik with Aurene and Vlast, this means they CAN be replaced.
    6. Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons, the Bloodstone and Balthazar's godly magic [with Aurene having EVEN MORE by eating Joko and she's not even an adult dragon yet]. If having only 1 of them too powerful would throw everything into chaos, then it would've happened the moment we killed Balthazar, but it didn't. This kinda implies that one Dragon actually could shoulder the burden, at least temporarily [and with Aurene having Joko's magic, we can assume she could also Awaken like he does, which could translate to Aurene reviving and controlling the dead Dragons to keep them in check].
    7. Taimi's "if one more dragon dies" comment was before Balthazar absorbed Primordus and Jormag's magic, this was before we learned of Glint's Legacy and that she wanted to replace Kralk with her children. Again, this implies they CAN be replaced and the fact Glint had children very heavily implies other Champions could have them too.

    Never said they couldn't be replaced. I said that based on Season 3 and Path of Fire, there needs a minimum of four dragons alive at any one point, be they originals or replacements.

    Kralkatorrik doesn't have all of Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's power, and even less of Jormag's and Primordus' since those two never lost all their power and what was stolen got split between Kralk and Aurene. Balthazar had no godly magic, that was stripped from him pre-imprisonment - his power was all from that Bloodstone and Primordus and Jormag. Kralkatorrik is stronger than any one Elder Dragon right now, but only after Balthazar's death.

    Pact Commander: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

    Kralkatorrik's not at the point where his overpowered nature would throw the world out of further imbalance, but his increased power does bring that imbalance far closer.

    And no, one Elder Dragon cannot "shoulder the burden". THREE cannot:

    Taimi: Have you thought about...you know...?
    Pact Commander: There's really no other way to kill Primordus or Jormag?
    Taimi: They're each other's weakness. Like Mordremoth's was its mind. And without my machine...
    Taimi: I don't think they're going to duke it out physically. Feels like that would be a disaster anyway.
    Pact Commander: I can't believe we're seriously considering saving them.
    Taimi: I know, but magic is so out of whack. If one more goes, all of Tyria might just collapse in on itself.
    Pact Commander: If...IF we keep them alive, how do we keep them from killing us all anyway?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)#My_story

    Balthazar absorbing Primordus and Jormag's magic doesn't matter for kitten, because in the end, Primordus and Jormag are still alive, they're still part of The All, so they're still helping to maintain balance. We're still at four living Elder Dragons tied to The All.

    The Bloodstone has the previous stored up energy as well as magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth as stated by the white mantle journals. So Kralkatorrik got even more Zhaitan and Mordremoth energy as well. I’m just waiting for different variations of Branded like plant branded, ice branded and fire branded to add to the ranks of Kralkatorrik’s armies.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The Bloodstone has the previous stored up energy as well as magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth as stated by the white mantle journals. So Kralkatorrik got even more Zhaitan and Mordremoth energy as well. I’m just waiting for different variations of Branded like plant branded, ice branded and fire branded to add to the ranks of Kralkatorrik’s armies.

    True, but it's still not "all of"; the statement "Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons" is simply false. The amount of magic it got from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Jormag, and Primordus is not the whole of them. We don't know what the percentages of each is either, since the Bloodstone received less than 25% of Mordremoth's magic (it went out in four directions, and the direction that went into the Bloodstone passed through Aurene).

    To know how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic that Kralkatorrik got, we must first learn the number of ley lines that formed / existed where they were killed. We know this for Mordy, but not for Zhaitan. Secondly, we need to know the dissipation rate of magic flow since it's not a solid line but more veiny (as we can see in the HoT final cinematic); while most magic would travel down the main path(s), there are branches that would become overflowed with magic too, thus lessening how much magic goes along the main ley lines. Then we need to determine where those ley lines go - how close they are to Kralkatorrik.

    And then on top of that, we'd need to know how much magic the Bloodstone had before Zhaitan's death, and how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic it got. THEN we need to know how much of Primordus/Jormag magic got siphoned out of them by Taimi's Machine and then how much of that magic that Balthazar absorbed.

    I had written out paragraphs of estimating, but honestly, it's impossible to know without massive guesses and variables. The equation would basically look like:

    (Zhaitan's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between Z and K / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + (Mordremoth's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between M and K / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + ((Bloodstone's original magic levels + (Zhaitan's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between Z and B / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + ((Mordremoth's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between M and B / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) - percentage absorbed by Aurene) - Percentage Balthazar didn't absorb during explosion)

    Just to figure out how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic Kralkatorrik got excluding what Balthazar got from Taimi's Machine, and what Zhaitan magic Mordremoth had gotten.

    Suffice it to say, in the end, Kralkatorrik likely has, roughly:

    100% K Magic, 40% Z Magic, 20% M Magic, 25% P Magic, 25% J Magic, 15% B Magic

    So, theoretically, he'd be roughly as strong as 2.15 Elder Dragons. This working on the assumption that a) none of Mordy's or Zhaitan's magic got siphoned by Taimi's Machine, b) Taimi's Machine siphoned about 3/4th of Primordus' and Jormag's powers (enough not to kill but to comatose them) and Balthazar absorbed about 1/3rd of that (as the beams didn't seem smaller going out than in, so it wouldn't be that great, and c) all five Bloodstones together (100% B Magic) = 1 Elder Dragon (this is likely inaccurate, but since Balthazar was over double power, seems a likely comparison if he took what was ultimately 25% of Jormag's and Primordus' power).

    Still a lot of guestimation going on, but we don't have any solid unit of measurement for determining how much magic Balthazar, the Maguuma Bloodstone, or each Elder Dragon has/had.

    EDIT: Of course, I just remembered that Zhaitan got drained of magic while asleep, so the total amount of magic he had is likely lower than any other Elder Dragon. So even if Kralkatorrik got 40% or more of Zhaitan's total magic upon Z's death, that may be less than even the 20% of M's Magic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The Bloodstone has the previous stored up energy as well as magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth as stated by the white mantle journals. So Kralkatorrik got even more Zhaitan and Mordremoth energy as well. I’m just waiting for different variations of Branded like plant branded, ice branded and fire branded to add to the ranks of Kralkatorrik’s armies.

    True, but it's still not "all of"; the statement "Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons" is simply false. The amount of magic it got from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Jormag, and Primordus is not the whole of them. We don't know what the percentages of each is either, since the Bloodstone received less than 25% of Mordremoth's magic (it went out in four directions, and the direction that went into the Bloodstone passed through Aurene).

    To know how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic that Kralkatorrik got, we must first learn the number of ley lines that formed / existed where they were killed. We know this for Mordy, but not for Zhaitan. Secondly, we need to know the dissipation rate of magic flow since it's not a solid line but more veiny (as we can see in the HoT final cinematic); while most magic would travel down the main path(s), there are branches that would become overflowed with magic too, thus lessening how much magic goes along the main ley lines. Then we need to determine where those ley lines go - how close they are to Kralkatorrik.

    And then on top of that, we'd need to know how much magic the Bloodstone had before Zhaitan's death, and how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic it got. THEN we need to know how much of Primordus/Jormag magic got siphoned out of them by Taimi's Machine and then how much of that magic that Balthazar absorbed.

    I had written out paragraphs of estimating, but honestly, it's impossible to know without massive guesses and variables. The equation would basically look like:

    (Zhaitan's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between Z and K / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + (Mordremoth's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between M and K / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + ((Bloodstone's original magic levels + (Zhaitan's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between Z and B / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) + ((Mordremoth's magic levels @ death / Ley Line paths) * (distance between M and B / Rate of magic dissipation over distance) - percentage absorbed by Aurene) - Percentage Balthazar didn't absorb during explosion)

    Just to figure out how much of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic Kralkatorrik got excluding what Balthazar got from Taimi's Machine, and what Zhaitan magic Mordremoth had gotten.

    Suffice it to say, in the end, Kralkatorrik likely has, roughly:

    100% K Magic, 40% Z Magic, 20% M Magic, 25% P Magic, 25% J Magic, 15% B Magic

    So, theoretically, he'd be roughly as strong as 2.15 Elder Dragons. This working on the assumption that a) none of Mordy's or Zhaitan's magic got siphoned by Taimi's Machine, b) Taimi's Machine siphoned about 3/4th of Primordus' and Jormag's powers (enough not to kill but to comatose them) and Balthazar absorbed about 1/3rd of that (as the beams didn't seem smaller going out than in, so it wouldn't be that great, and c) all five Bloodstones together (100% B Magic) = 1 Elder Dragon (this is likely inaccurate, but since Balthazar was over double power, seems a likely comparison if he took what was ultimately 25% of Jormag's and Primordus' power).

    Still a lot of guestimation going on, but we don't have any solid unit of measurement for determining how much magic Balthazar, the Maguuma Bloodstone, or each Elder Dragon has/had.

    EDIT: Of course, I just remembered that Zhaitan got drained of magic while asleep, so the total amount of magic he had is likely lower than any other Elder Dragon. So even if Kralkatorrik got 40% or more of Zhaitan's total magic upon Z's death, that may be less than even the 20% of M's Magic.

    Kralkatorrik would have gain some of Zhaitan’s magic on Zhaitan’s death. Then on Mordremoth’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gain Mordremoth’s magic as well as some residual Zhaitan magic that Mordremoth had absorbed. After Balthazar’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gained the stored Bloodstone magic, as well as the Zhaitan magic that went into the Bloodstone. Then he would also get more Mordremoth magic, with some more Zhaitan magic. Then you have the Jormag and Primordus magic. Then you have any of the Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic that Primordus and Jormag absorbed. Lots of cross magic contamination.

    It’s kinda impossible to guess, how much each dragon got, probably a question the devs didn’t think of. The way I think of it is that Kralkatorrik, has the abilities of 4 other dragons, in theory, including his natural abilities.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, mathematic calculations cannot solve the question "Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?". The fact that we have now 2/3 Dragons alive, one of them being loaded with X% + Y% of the deceased dragons with an extra of Z% from Balthazar and maybe T% from a bloodstone explains nothing.

    1. We all know that the Elder Dragons absorb magic when active and then releases the magic when sleeping. The released magic is absorbed by all the other dragons - without affecting the way they act - for the very beginning of Tyria. This cycle repeated several times and never a Dragon started to use the characteristics of the other dragons only because it absorbed some magic released by them. Until now: now any dragon absorbing some of the other dragons magic starts to hybridize itself, turning into a mixed being: KralkoZhaiMor is one of them. Why now? Because the writing team felt that the old fashioned way of the nature is not good anymore.

    2. In the past, at least once, an alliance of 5 races (Mursaat + Jotun + Dwarves + The Seers + The Forgotten) fought the dragons - with the intention to eliminate them. Nothing points to the idea that killing the dragons may be a bad thing. But, based on the very few information remaining from these advanced ancient races, and without any other supplemental information, Taimi stated that killing the dragons will destroy the world. Honestly? In thousands of years 5 ancient and advanced races were unable to discover the truth Taimi saw in few days? Based on the information from that races? HM.

    PFF ! I will stop here. I'm afraid I will become too acid.

    Conclusion: It is a bad thing to kill Dragons now because the lore team stated this. Without any relation with the history of Tyria and with the evidences and information left by the ancient races. It is bad. This happens when you change the lore team and you don't ask them to follow the old story but let them change it how they want. In the PoF and LS only the U.F.O.'s are missing to create a perfect mixture. No matter how good story a lore team can create, if that story is not fitted in the context, it became bad.

    Note: I'm interested where the Mist is located. Because if we find that the Mist has the contact point with the reality somewhere inside the planet, that leads to an interesting theory: "The hollow Tyria" :# ! We can find that the "gods" form an elite called "The Enlightened" trying to hide the truth. :#

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Kralkatorrik would have gain some of Zhaitan’s magic on Zhaitan’s death. Then on Mordremoth’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gain Mordremoth’s magic as well as some residual Zhaitan magic that Mordremoth had absorbed.

    I accounted for both of that. In the percentages I presented:

    100% K Magic, 40% Z Magic, 20% M Magic, 25% P Magic, 25% J Magic, 15% B Magic

    When Zhaitan died, we only know of three directions his magic went in - north (to Tequatl, etc.), east (to Kralk), and west (to Ring of Fire and Mordremoth). Presuming equal distribution like as it seems when Mordremoth died, that meant 1/3rd of it went to Kralkatorrik. 33% minus dissipation over distance; 30%. Mordremoth would have similarly got ~30%, but perhaps more due to Scarlet's redirecting of ley lines later on for a possible max of 60% including dissipation over distance, but then only a quarter of that would then reach Kralk, again after dissipation. 66% minus dissipation (60%) divided by 4 (15%), minus dissipation again (10%). 40% total.

    A quarter of Mordremoth's magic when he died, minus dissipation (20%).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    After Balthazar’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gained the stored Bloodstone magic, as well as the Zhaitan magic that went into the Bloodstone. Then he would also get more Mordremoth magic, with some more Zhaitan magic.

    Per the journal, there was actually a very small amount of Zhaitan magic that reached the Maguuma Bloodstone, and that was before it began leaking magic due to the White Mantle's experimentations. We can't really be sure how much magic of either reached the Maguuma Bloodstone, just that more Mordremoth magic reached it, which makes sense given directions and distance. That said, I attributed all of that with the "15% B Magic". Mind, I could probably see an argument of adding 5% to Z Magic and 15% to M Magic as estimations. Still would make Kralkatorrik only roughly just over twice the strength of two Elder Dragons.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Then you have the Jormag and Primordus magic. Then you have any of the Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic that Primordus and Jormag absorbed. Lots of cross magic contamination.

    This is actually unlikely. Taimi's Machine was designed to specifically pull the countering energies - Primordus' and Jormag's. There would be no need or reason for it to pull Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic that the two Elder Dragons ate up.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s kinda impossible to guess, how much each dragon got, probably a question the devs didn’t think of. The way I think of it is that Kralkatorrik, has the abilities of 4 other dragons, in theory, including his natural abilities.

    In theory, yes, though so far he's only shown domain of death and mind; possibly domain of shadow too since in the PoF ending cinematic he corrupted with his shadow rather than the golden breath depicted in Edge of Destiny novel.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Well, mathematic calculations cannot solve the question "Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?". The fact that we have now 2/3 Dragons alive, one of them being loaded with X% + Y% of the deceased dragons with an extra of Z% from Balthazar and maybe T% from a bloodstone explains nothing.

    The equations was more meant to show how much stronger Kralkatorrik got, not "why is killing them bad".

    As an aside: T and Z would be the same thing since what Kralk got out of Balth was the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag magic (with a touch of Mord and Zhaitan magic).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    1. We all know that the Elder Dragons absorb magic when active and then releases the magic when sleeping. The released magic is absorbed by all the other dragons - without affecting the way they act - for the very beginning of Tyria. This cycle repeated several times and never a Dragon started to use the characteristics of the other dragons only because it absorbed some magic released by them. Until now: now any dragon absorbing some of the other dragons magic starts to hybridize itself, turning into a mixed being: KralkoZhaiMor is one of them. Why now? Because the writing team felt that the old fashioned way of the nature is not good anymore.

    This is a bit of a plot hole in things. But the key difference between then and now is that the spaces in The All are "vacant" now, there's no being directly tied to those two spheres of power in The All, whereas every time in the past (as far as written history goes), there was.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    2. In the past, at least once, an alliance of 5 races (Mursaat + Jotun + Dwarves + The Seers + The Forgotten) fought the dragons - with the intention to eliminate them. Nothing points to the idea that killing the dragons may be a bad thing. But, based on the very few information remaining from these advanced ancient races, and without any other supplemental information, Taimi stated that killing the dragons will destroy the world. Honestly? In thousands of years 5 ancient and advanced races were unable to discover the truth Taimi saw in few days? Based on the information from that races? HM.

    Come to think of it, besides the mursaat lore tablets from Rising Flames, was it ever actually suggested the alliance was out to kill the Elder Dragons? I had always thought it was an alliance to survive the Elder Dragons. Which is a mighty big difference - and, arguably, could be why the mursaat felt that they were the betrayed ones, if they felt the purpose of the alliance was to kill the Elder Dragons.

    Looking at the oldest mentions of the alliance, what's said is this:

    They [the Seers] allied with the Forgotten, the dwarves, the jotun, and the mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)#Mursaat

    It's accepted that there were five sentient races who fought the Elder Dragons the first time and survived.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Trueclaw

    Both just mention they allied to "resist" or that they "fought" the Elder Dragons. But no mention of a goal to kill them.

    As to the last bit: the Forgotten, obviously, did know. Since they're the ones who had prepared since the last dragonrise in replacing them with Glint. The Jotun also knew. Even if such lore was stated with Season 2 / Season 3.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    This happens when you change the lore team and you don't ask them to follow the old story but let them change it how they want.

    Most of the lore team is actually still the same. And this has been a very obvious (to players) plot element since halfway through Season 2, ever since Hidden Arcana.

    The whole "don't kill Elder Dragons, that damages the world" has been about as long a plot of GW2 as Glint's Legacy has been.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Kralkatorrik would have gain some of Zhaitan’s magic on Zhaitan’s death. Then on Mordremoth’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gain Mordremoth’s magic as well as some residual Zhaitan magic that Mordremoth had absorbed.

    I accounted for both of that. In the percentages I presented:

    100% K Magic, 40% Z Magic, 20% M Magic, 25% P Magic, 25% J Magic, 15% B Magic

    When Zhaitan died, we only know of three directions his magic went in - north (to Tequatl, etc.), east (to Kralk), and west (to Ring of Fire and Mordremoth). Presuming equal distribution like as it seems when Mordremoth died, that meant 1/3rd of it went to Kralkatorrik. 33% minus dissipation over distance; 30%. Mordremoth would have similarly got ~30%, but perhaps more due to Scarlet's redirecting of ley lines later on for a possible max of 60% including dissipation over distance, but then only a quarter of that would then reach Kralk, again after dissipation. 66% minus dissipation (60%) divided by 4 (15%), minus dissipation again (10%). 40% total.

    A quarter of Mordremoth's magic when he died, minus dissipation (20%).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    After Balthazar’s death, Kralkatorrik would have gained the stored Bloodstone magic, as well as the Zhaitan magic that went into the Bloodstone. Then he would also get more Mordremoth magic, with some more Zhaitan magic.

    Per the journal, there was actually a very small amount of Zhaitan magic that reached the Maguuma Bloodstone, and that was before it began leaking magic due to the White Mantle's experimentations. We can't really be sure how much magic of either reached the Maguuma Bloodstone, just that more Mordremoth magic reached it, which makes sense given directions and distance. That said, I attributed all of that with the "15% B Magic". Mind, I could probably see an argument of adding 5% to Z Magic and 15% to M Magic as estimations. Still would make Kralkatorrik only roughly just over twice the strength of two Elder Dragons.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Then you have the Jormag and Primordus magic. Then you have any of the Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic that Primordus and Jormag absorbed. Lots of cross magic contamination.

    This is actually unlikely. Taimi's Machine was designed to specifically pull the countering energies - Primordus' and Jormag's. There would be no need or reason for it to pull Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic that the two Elder Dragons ate up.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s kinda impossible to guess, how much each dragon got, probably a question the devs didn’t think of. The way I think of it is that Kralkatorrik, has the abilities of 4 other dragons, in theory, including his natural abilities.

    In theory, yes, though so far he's only shown domain of death and mind; possibly domain of shadow too since in the PoF ending cinematic he corrupted with his shadow rather than the golden breath depicted in Edge of Destiny novel.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Well, mathematic calculations cannot solve the question "Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?". The fact that we have now 2/3 Dragons alive, one of them being loaded with X% + Y% of the deceased dragons with an extra of Z% from Balthazar and maybe T% from a bloodstone explains nothing.

    The equations was more meant to show how much stronger Kralkatorrik got, not "why is killing them bad".

    As an aside: T and Z would be the same thing since what Kralk got out of Balth was the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag magic (with a touch of Mord and Zhaitan magic).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    1. We all know that the Elder Dragons absorb magic when active and then releases the magic when sleeping. The released magic is absorbed by all the other dragons - without affecting the way they act - for the very beginning of Tyria. This cycle repeated several times and never a Dragon started to use the characteristics of the other dragons only because it absorbed some magic released by them. Until now: now any dragon absorbing some of the other dragons magic starts to hybridize itself, turning into a mixed being: KralkoZhaiMor is one of them. Why now? Because the writing team felt that the old fashioned way of the nature is not good anymore.

    This is a bit of a plot hole in things. But the key difference between then and now is that the spaces in The All are "vacant" now, there's no being directly tied to those two spheres of power in The All, whereas every time in the past (as far as written history goes), there was.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    2. In the past, at least once, an alliance of 5 races (Mursaat + Jotun + Dwarves + The Seers + The Forgotten) fought the dragons - with the intention to eliminate them. Nothing points to the idea that killing the dragons may be a bad thing. But, based on the very few information remaining from these advanced ancient races, and without any other supplemental information, Taimi stated that killing the dragons will destroy the world. Honestly? In thousands of years 5 ancient and advanced races were unable to discover the truth Taimi saw in few days? Based on the information from that races? HM.

    Come to think of it, besides the mursaat lore tablets from Rising Flames, was it ever actually suggested the alliance was out to kill the Elder Dragons? I had always thought it was an alliance to survive the Elder Dragons. Which is a mighty big difference - and, arguably, could be why the mursaat felt that they were the betrayed ones, if they felt the purpose of the alliance was to kill the Elder Dragons.

    Looking at the oldest mentions of the alliance, what's said is this:

    They [the Seers] allied with the Forgotten, the dwarves, the jotun, and the mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)#Mursaat

    It's accepted that there were five sentient races who fought the Elder Dragons the first time and survived.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Trueclaw

    Both just mention they allied to "resist" or that they "fought" the Elder Dragons. But no mention of a goal to kill them.

    As to the last bit: the Forgotten, obviously, did know. Since they're the ones who had prepared since the last dragonrise in replacing them with Glint. The Jotun also knew. Even if such lore was stated with Season 2 / Season 3.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    This happens when you change the lore team and you don't ask them to follow the old story but let them change it how they want.

    Most of the lore team is actually still the same. And this has been a very obvious (to players) plot element since halfway through Season 2, ever since Hidden Arcana.

    The whole "don't kill Elder Dragons, that damages the world" has been about as long a plot of GW2 as Glint's Legacy has been.

    Yeah, I just don’t think the devs actually have a magical equation for how much magic get dispersed around. I mean if the bigger the dragon the more magic it has consumed, would mean Primordus is currently the most powerful, that we have seen, as DSD and Jormag haven’t shown up yet.

    Regarding the Taimi’s Machine, you do have a point, what is kinda odd though, is that in order to test her theory small scale she needed samples from destroyers and Icebrood that had shown influences of Mordremoth and Zhaitan. Which is strange when all she would need is any old Icebrood and destroyer.

    Taimi: I've been examining that destroyer sample you retrieved, and I've come to a conclusion: I was right! As usual!
    : So it's true—the dragons are absorbing each other's influences? And becoming more powerful in the process?
    Taimi: That's right. And there's more.

    Taimi: Remember what I was telling you about that chak organ? How it could selectively filter certain types of magic?
    Taimi: If we can discern magic types, we may be able to pit Jormag and Primordus against one another, destroying them both at once!

    Taimi: We confirm the theory in the lab, utilizing small amounts of magic to see if they'll actually counteract one another.
    Taimi: And we'll need an icebrood sample—one showing signs of influence from our dearly departed Mordremoth and Zhaitan.

    Yeah so this part never made sense to me, if the Chak organ can filter energies why do we need the samples that have Zhaitan and Mordremoth influences? Why not use regular destroyer and Icebrood. Clearly she can get some regular dragon minions as shown in Taimi’s pet project.

    Maybe when Jormag and Primordus absorb the other dragon energies they just blend in with their magic perhaps?

  • rylien.3824rylien.3824 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2018

    I am more than of opinion that we refer to Cantha, 2 clues allowed me this suggestion:

    • The map has been "widened" all the way to the east, and I checked, that leaves the width for Cantha as it should be. (In relation to the map of That_Shaman).
    • Istan was cut directly, and this cut conceals us directly at the edge of the islands of the battle (antagonistic islands). They could have, and had as in Guild Wars first of the name, display all Istan, except if that Below, let me presage something, so to hide something from us.
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Yeah, I just don’t think the devs actually have a magical equation for how much magic get dispersed around. I mean if the bigger the dragon the more magic it has consumed, would mean Primordus is currently the most powerful, that we have seen, as DSD and Jormag haven’t shown up yet.

    Well, from Test Subject and Megadestroyer meta we know that dragon minions grow upon eating magic. And this seems to carry over to dragons too given Aurene. Primordus has been awake the longest with access to six asuran citadel cities all on par to Rata Sum, so it wouldn't be surprising if he's the strongest (in fact, it'd be outright expected). This is even ignoring eating other Elder Dragons' magic, and Primordus had repositioned himself to eat a good portion of two Elder Dragons' magic (more so than any other). It would also explain how he could move about if he was smaller until moving to Draconis Mons.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Regarding the Taimi’s Machine, you do have a point, what is kinda odd though, is that in order to test her theory small scale she needed samples from destroyers and Icebrood that had shown influences of Mordremoth and Zhaitan. Which is strange when all she would need is any old Icebrood and destroyer.

    [...]

    Yeah so this part never made sense to me, if the Chak organ can filter energies why do we need the samples that have Zhaitan and Mordremoth influences? Why not use regular destroyer and Icebrood. Clearly she can get some regular dragon minions as shown in Taimi’s pet project.

    Maybe when Jormag and Primordus absorb the other dragon energies they just blend in with their magic perhaps?

    Other than "bad writing excuse to get us to Emo Braham", I would make the argument that she needed both regular and new destroyer and icebrood and filtering magic so as to figure out which magic is specifically Primordus magic and Jormag magic, since the Elder Dragons can absorb any type of magic by all appearances, so as to set the machine to specifically target those two types of magic.

    What doesn't make sense to me is how she planned on running a test with the machine working if there was no off switch (the premise for Taimi's Pet Project and the reason why we had to destroy the machine)...

    @rylien.3824 said:
    I am more than of opinion that we refer to Cantha, 2 clues allowed me this suggestion:

    • The map has been "widened" all the way to the east, and I checked, that leaves the width for Cantha as it should be. (In relation to the map of That_Shaman).
    • Istan was cut directly, and this cut conceals us directly at the edge of the islands of the battle (antagonistic islands). They could have, and had as in Guild Wars first of the name, display all Istan, except if that Below, let me presage something, so to hide something from us.

    Not sure you posted this in the right thread, but...

    • Cantha is far to the south by southwest, so the expansion of the map actually would argue against Cantha, IMO, since it would mean expanding even more than needed if we're not going any further east. Plus, there's a lot of emptiness to expand the map to Cantha, so I'd suspect that if/when they add Cantha, it'll be a new world map much like how the Mists is its own world map atm.
    • You can show all of Istan without showing any of the Battle Isles, though it does come close. Not sure what not showing the Battle Isles would accomplish though, since they're supposed to be sunken by Zhaitan anyways, and more importantly, ArenaNet has no qualms of altering the world map to fit their LW updates let alone their expansions. So they could have put something or nothing and then completely alter it later, just like they have for A Bug in the System or most of Season 3.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    In theory, yes, though so far he's only shown domain of death and mind; possibly domain of shadow too since in the PoF ending cinematic he corrupted with his shadow rather than the golden breath depicted in Edge of Destiny novel.

    May I ask when Kralkatorrik showed the domain of mind? There's stuff that I either miss or don't play (usually achievement related lore I don't see since I'm not a huge fan of achievements) so sometimes things are revealed that I don't know about.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's part of Episode 2. The Inquest have found that Kralkatorrik's hivemind has 'upgraded', so now one minion can see respond to something that another minion sees.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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