World Restructuring Update 1

[SkyShroud.2865]

Programming isn't human. Human can decide if a person activity can be accountable or not accountable base on varies inputs. If one put all of those human thinking into programming, it will be extreme huge coding efforts that will take years. Therefore, it is only logical to classify all human players into the same type of entity, reducing the development time.

Going through the logical static approach always means there are rooms to "exploit". It isn't easy to find a middle ground where the system can balance the game while not allowing players to intentionally cause unbalance (due to their intense desire to win at all cost) while giving freedoms to players. If one look at each of them in details, all of those are principles that inherently contradict one another; giving too much freedom to players give them the power to unbalance the game.

Even now, the proposed 500 players limit is still good amount of numbers to unbalance the matchup across board.

[Killjoy.9213]

I notices you mentioned "alliance tags" will possibly be a thing. How exactly will this work?

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Killjoy.9213" said:I notices you mentioned "alliance tags" will possibly be a thing. How exactly will this work?

I for one hope that it wont just be a tag (like, name beside the guild name or something) but something visual too.

Imagine having a new alliance emblem that shows behind/around the guild emblem when claiming (ie the final image is just a combo of the two), making use of those giant banners. That would be awesome and show us what alliance owns the structure, in addition to recognizing the guild. Of course the name would be listed in the objective info too.

[XenesisII.1540]

Finally a reason to make an alliance of my guild banks.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Finally a reason to make an alliance of my guild banks.

Wasn't there a banking clan in Star Wars??

I think it was 'Muunilinst'

[Meetshield.1756]

How do you plan to keep the "Win at any cost" crowd from gaming your system?

What plan do you have to return WvW to normal when everyone starts to quit the game because their alliance lost, and they have no "Pugs" to blame?

Call it whatever you want, but this is essentially what we already have, but with pug population balancing. Why not just take the existing server names BG / JQ / etc and turn them into a "6th Guild Slot" Let players join these super guilds , and then auto-load balance the players that don't "Join" them into whatever server guild needs population. And if you have too much BG for 1 500 man alliance you could split them up. BG1, BG2 etc.

Hey maybe thats the problem with WvW BG is too fat... Problem solved just split BG into 2 servers...

[XenesisII.1540]

It's not going to be different... the alliance of guilds isn't any different from a group of guilds you have on a server right now, the only difference is they may communicate more for goals on ppting. Pugs will be around just the same, they just randomly scattered onto worlds every 8 weeks, former server pug guilds will also be around. So pugs can still take the blame, don't worry. :lol:Simply splitting BG doesn't fix the issue.

[Meetshield.1756]

So this is totally not like Dodgeball where the fat kids get picked last, or you kick a bad guild from your alliance so you can bring in a stronger guild... Or you only have 25 slots in your guild cuz you are right up against the cap, so you have to kick that semi casual ele, that shows up about twice a week for that hard core necro...

[Meetshield.1756]

Also how are 500 players going to cover 24x7 x 365 ? thats insane. 500 is way too low.. GOMX the server guild on GOM with one of the worst active populations has 454 players in it.

[shiri.4257]

@Meetshield.1756 said:So this is totally not like Dodgeball where the fat kids get picked last, or you kick a bad guild from your alliance so you can bring in a stronger guild... Or you only have 25 slots in your guild cuz you are right up against the cap, so you have to kick that semi casual ele, that shows up about twice a week for that hard core necro...

It would just give you more administrative control on who the core puggles are. Like a guild but larger. Can't stop them though since the puggles prolly wont designate a wvw guild and can still RNG on to it. But you can set alliance standards and filter who takes up that spot as a lock in. The alliances with a hardcore go stack won't last long. They are fragile, first sign of losing, their leaders will go on a drunk rampage. At the very least, I feel the more compact an alliance is, the more variety of fights it will get. Similar to being a link or low pop host.

[Meetshield.1756]

The dev's have painted a WvW nirvana that is not going to happen. The best thing you can hope for in WvW is to be apart of a good guild, play with your friends, and enjoy the hours you have together on whatever server your on. The problems with WvW have more to do with the class balances than they do with the server balances.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Meetshield.1756 said:Also how are 500 players going to cover 24x7 x 365 ? thats insane. 500 is way too low.. GOMX the server guild on GOM with one of the worst active populations has 454 players in it.

They're not. People are still confusing alliances for worlds.

Anet has never said officially how large in terms of players each server is, but it was implied that 1 alliance would roughly be 1/5th of a current servers. A world under the new system would combine alliances, guilds and loose players to reach server size. A single world out of 12+ could contain 4 500 man alliances, or 50+ smaller alliances. Hell it could have a thousand tiny alliances. Player counts and their activity is what matter.

And to Meetshield, you can still in theory bypass most worries of needlessy reaching the cap by optimizing guilds.

Guild A (main guild, upgraded hall) has a rooster of 250 players, but only 50 are truly WvW active, the rest either PvE only or dont want to do WvWGuild B (dummy guild) has those 50 active players in it.Guild B joins alliance X and says they want ~75 slots available to them.Guild B is WvW repped.Guild A is guild repped.

There you go you just cut a 250 man guild to be a 50/75 man part of a WvW alliance. In theory since we dont know how it looks in practice. The point is that we are given control over the 500 man chunks. Some fat trimming may apply and some people might find themselves venturing of for new guilds, new alliances - guilds already up and leave if there is too many queues on a server while always leaving casual people behind (or its for fights, because of course). This really isnt any different.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Meetshield.1756 said:Also how are 500 players going to cover 24x7 x 365 ? thats insane. 500 is way too low.. GOMX the server guild on GOM with one of the worst active populations has 454 players in it.

ERmm...too low...

Let put this in practice and stack 500 sea wvw players into one alliance. Let just see how many of you servers will be steamrolled and give up that timezone completely.

[Redponey.8352]

At least, before restructuration , they should try to stop linking systme and do a fall WvW tournament. Players left and lost faith because they have'nt anymore server's objectives

Step by Step we should find an solution.

[XenesisII.1540]

Oh boy, I wonder who would win that tournament...

[Dawdler.8521]

@Redponey.8352 said:Step by Step we should find an solution.

This implies no steps have been taken.

Linking was the first step and alliances is just one small step further by capping links to 500 players and linking 5-x+ via an automated population algorithm instead of 2-3 manually.

Thats the solution.

[Redponey.8352]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Redponey.8352" said:Step by Step we should find an solution.

This implies no steps have been taken.

Linking was the first step and alliances is just one small step further by capping links to 500 players and linking 5-x+ via an automated population algorithm instead of 2-3 manually.

Thats the solution.

As we all saw linking server was a huge mistake , it increased a lot issues that we already have (bandwagon, stacking) and server doesnt mean anything. => no reason to fight for it.

As you mention alliance but alliance is a part of the whole "WvW restructuration" it's a whole WvW restructuration and it's not step , it's a leap and we could easily get in the gap.Alliance isnt only capping links to 500 players it's just an getting an more organised EOTM. Instead of gathering players to one entity and organisation (server), it would split them all and giving them less will to interact each other. It would be like an anarchic system, no organisation , no fun , more toxicity between players => vicious circle

I'm not saying alliance is bad , i'm saying that the whole restructuration with alliance is not a real good idea. However alliance system in server system would be nice.

Alliance would be more attractive than an lonely guild and it would promote new players in it because there is always player to play with (connected in game).I'have no clue about more what they will give to alliance but it would be nice to have some features that permit regular and vet players to help new and casual players to get in this gamemode.

Moreover this restructuration as it has been presented is like having an developpers team ( alliance) with works with others devs (alliance/guilds/Pugs) and then after 8 weeks , they completly change. Now explain me how could you create healthy environment and long term project if you doesnt know with who you will be linked.

Alliance players will remain closed on themselves because they wont up any effort in a thing that is temporary.

[Miko.4158]

The bit I don;t get is the 5 guilds. Surely it should be based on size like 5 small one or one big one.The incentive is for bigger guilds and bigger links to increase regular blob masses.Which in turn stagnates the match ups.We already have some guilds fixing match ups as they are larger than host servers.

Overall I like the idea, but I think balance could get worse

[BlueMelody.6398]

@"Redponey.8352" said:At least, before restructuration , they should try to stop linking systme and do a fall WvW tournament.

Oh, this is a great idea. Let's unlink servers (thereby drastically exacerbating the already-problematic world balance issue) and then on top of that throw in a tournament that will only serve to make the problem even worse as people rapidly bandwagon to the few top servers.

This is precisely the opposite of what needs to happen. All these "solutions" looking for ways to keep current servers intact are avoiding the issue -- the very existence of permanent entire-world populations is what is at the very root of the population imbalance now that makes the game uncompetitive in the first place.

The large servers must be broken up. You cannot keep 2500 people in a permanent world and expect any kind of competitive environment for all wvw'ers. Some talk about how they will quit if they cannot continue to play with all 2499 of their current friends (lol, I bet you don't really know 5% of your current server-mates to any extent beyond seeing their name in chat every so often). Yet there are tons of the rest of us who put the competitiveness of the game mode above having to be on the same team as "that guy that tagged up once when I was home sick".

Yes, there will be some guilds/alliances that try to stack with hardcore players. Guess what -- there are lots of guilds that already do this. And just as there are also guilds that do not reject the non-elites, there will be alliances that do not reject the non-elites. The cries of "casuals will have no place" are patently false. Casuals will have plenty of options. The people who seem most concerned are the ones who insist on being part of an elite guild/alliance but who feel that they are too "casual" to be accepted. Isn't that the very definition of wanting to be carried? If a hardcore wvw guild/alliance doesn't want you because you're "not good enough", why would you want to be in their guild except to be carried? Unless you are part of a 50-man guild where the other 49 are hardcore and you alone are not (which means they are already carrying you), then you will have other casual friends at your level who will ally with you.

The extreme "sky is falling" histrionics about servers being broken up and how the game mode will die if this goes through just really leave me smh.

[Victory.2879]

@Raymond Lukes.6305 said:

@"ImperialWL.7138" said:When you say "player hours" am I right in assuming this is strictly WvW playtime and not overall account playtime? It may seem obvious but you didn't clarify it. Just want to make sure that it is actually WvW playtime.

Yes WvW play time

Will that 'play time' also include the numerous players standing around afk waiting for their participation decay and clocking up rewards before they log out or pop out of town to refresh?

Some servers are more infested with these people than others which will screw up the figures.

[Redponey.8352]

@"BlueMelody.6398" said:Oh, this is a great idea. Let's unlink servers (thereby drastically exacerbating the already-problematic world balance issue) and then on top of that throw in a tournament that will only serve to make the problem even worse as people rapidly bandwagon to the few top servers.

This is precisely the opposite of what needs to happen. All these "solutions" looking for ways to keep current servers intact are avoiding the issue -- the very existence of permanent entire-world populations is what is at the very root of the population imbalance now that makes the game uncompetitive in the first place.

This is quite funny because 3 years ago, we had not this major issue of the population imbalance. major isssues were the nightcap and PPT whereas kills (if u doesnt finish ennemy) didn't give any points. Over this last 3 years population imbalance started to be a major issues and it just continue to increase a lot.

Population imbalance started to be a real issue when they announced that there is no more tournament (3 leagues).

"It's like a race , each people are different(servers) and they run differently. If you trained to prepare race and then finally they told you , there is no more race would you still continue to train in vain? No, no more objectives."Then players started to stack more than before because they only found fun in fight ( mostly in top tier servers) because general population decrease with this announced. At this point, anet saw there is great imbalance then they searched a solution to re balance this (linking system) However it only increases imbalance as overstack tier 1 server (full) became link with mid-low server population.After this many guilds and players left their own server to stack on linked server to tier 1 (bandwagon). As low-mid tier server gets linked to huge one they lost their "identity" and their community to become just a temporary side server which enable you to stack on top tier server. After this announced and linking system many players left this game, which greatly increase imbalance.

All Anet did to try balance just increase the imbalance. As i said mistakes have been made but it provides many information about what it needs to focus on and which mistakes should not be redone.

As you think that population imbalanced now makes the game uncompetitive, can you explain where is the competition? and what are you fighting for ?Actually i think, you reversed the issue and its origin. regular players in WvW played for their server and fight as anet remove tournament, server identity(linking system) and fun in fight ( expansion specialization >>all and insane damage output) (fight last no more than 15secs) , Players started to massively leave and stack on top tier server to try to find fun.

@"BlueMelody.6398" said:

The large servers must be broken up. You cannot keep 2500 people in a permanent world and expect any kind of competitive environment for all wvw'ers. Some talk about how they will quit if they cannot continue to play with all 2499 of their current friends (lol, I bet you don't really know 5% of your current server-mates to any extent beyond seeing their name in chat every so often). Yet there are tons of the rest of us who put the competitiveness of the game mode above having to be on the same team as "that guy that tagged up once when I was home sick".

Yes, there will be some guilds/alliances that try to stack with hardcore players. Guess what -- there are lots of guilds that already do this. And just as there are also guilds that do not reject the non-elites, there will be alliances that do not reject the non-elites. The cries of "casuals will have no place" are patently false. Casuals will have plenty of options. The people who seem most concerned are the ones who insist on being part of an elite guild/alliance but who feel that they are too "casual" to be accepted. Isn't that the very definition of wanting to be carried? If a hardcore wvw guild/alliance doesn't want you because you're "not good enough", why would you want to be in their guild except to be carried? Unless you are part of a 50-man guild where the other 49 are hardcore and you alone are not (which means they are already carrying you), then you will have other casual friends at your level who will ally with you.

The extreme "sky is falling" histrionics about servers being broken up and how the game mode will die if this goes through just really leave me smh.

As i said stoping linking server will limit bandwagon on top tier servers as top tier will be full (which is their current state) and players could not stack on it. Moreover making a tournament will bring back competition between server, players will have objectives and some fun with it. they will create organization to make their best in this tournament.

However before putting this up, maybe a free transfer should be given to mid-low population server and put more high server transfer than now (gold could be easily farmed..) or allow x transfer each y months.

As i said in previous post , alliance system will just create an unhealthy environment, as alliance is made by mostly regular WvW players , as you think many casual wont get involved in these structures as they already have an PvX guild which does everything.I took my guild as exemple we were all regular and some ex-hardcore WvW player but we put any rules, we accepted casual and extreme casual gamers but few of them join us even if i used to lead a lot in PUG. casual wont get involve , they just want to participate so alliance isnt make for them as they will be aside of it.

Alliance system will put you temporary with some people (8weeks). It's really really nice to not knowing what will happen in few weeks :anguished: (would you like to have a team to work with for 8 weeks and then having new teammates ?) no because its not a sustainable system as it need to be stable.

This gamemode will always be imbalance but it's the degree of imbalance that matter. Players are all different, some will tryhard some will chill out , they have all different skill level, you cannot try to balance population by "merge players as unit " to have the same amount of players on each side that doesn't work (linking system is a good example ). Competition will be always imbalance since each player is different (look at Soccer/Football competition).

The really issue is the reason of why people are leaving this game and gamemode and why players are stacking on top tier server?

Because there NO MORE FUN (no more server competition, no fun in fight)

[morrolan.9608]

@"Redponey.8352" said:This is quite funny because 3 years ago, we had not this major issue of the population imbalance. major isssues were the nightcap and PPT whereas kills (if u doesnt finish ennemy) didn't give any points. Over this last 3 years population imbalance started to be a major issues and it just continue to increase a lot.

Population imbalance started to be a real issue when they announced that there is no more tournament (3 leagues).

"It's like a race , each people are different(servers) and they run differently. If you trained to prepare race and then finally they told you , there is no more race would you still continue to train in vain? No, no more objectives."

Its been said many many times by both players and anet themselves that seasons were the direct cause of many burning out and leaving the mode. Imbalance was less of an issue because the overall population was much larger.

[Redponey.8352]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@"Redponey.8352" said:This is quite funny because 3 years ago, we had not this major issue of the population imbalance. major isssues were the nightcap and PPT whereas kills (if u doesnt finish ennemy) didn't give any points. Over this last 3 years population imbalance started to be a major issues and it just continue to increase a lot.

Population imbalance started to be a real issue when they announced that there is no more tournament (3 leagues).

"It's like a race , each people are different(servers) and they run differently. If you trained to prepare race and then finally they told you , there is no more race would you still continue to train in vain? No, no more objectives."

Its been said many many times by both players and anet themselves that seasons were the direct cause of many burning out and leaving the mode. Imbalance was less of an issue because the overall population was much larger.

I agreed that in tournament some people had burning out because of many hours marathon and that was the main reason that lead anet to stop that but it also remove competition between server.

That the design of WvW which create burning out as the off peak hours has the same weight as prime peak hours. However this not the major reason why many people left this gamemode because of imbalance of tournament. People left because there no more competition between servers in massive pvp gamemode.

Many players waited in hope to have one day a new competitive event between server but when they announced this many people left because it will become like an EOTM maps.

I remember that just after HoT release before announced the end of WvW tournament and Linking server (and before update loot in WvW), We were able to making more than 50 pple queue on a single map. Now (with links and no more tournament) it's max 20 pple in queue, less than 40 pple on your tag and less on audio... => we are drifting to an EOTM game-mode. We also see that they reduce the number of servers 2 times.

Any PvP games has some issues but you cannot try to balance by account people as few variables , each players doesn't have the same weight (lead, regular players , followers , roamers, scouts, casual gamer.) Actually, matchup isnt very fun because its up and down, each 2 weeks it's nearly the same matchup. People get bored because it has become a routine.Before i used to enjoy putting my tag up and coming on audio, talking with people, teach and learn together with players but now it has become awful and more like a chore. Even if i want to tag up, i know it will make me mad/sad because its more horrible to lead an EOTM map.

WvW tournament were a huge part of core of WvW. Nevertheless if alliance system is out as its has been presented. They should rename WvW into AvA AlliancesvAlliancesbecause worlds would mean nothing.

[Etheri.5406]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

@"Redponey.8352" said:At least, before restructuration , they should try to stop linking systme and do a fall WvW tournament.

Oh, this is a great idea. Let's unlink servers (thereby drastically exacerbating the already-problematic world balance issue) and then on top of that throw in a tournament that will only serve to make the problem

even worse

as people rapidly bandwagon to the few top servers.

This is precisely the opposite of what needs to happen. All these "solutions" looking for ways to keep current servers intact are avoiding the issue -- the very existence of

permanent entire-world populations

is what is at the very root of the population imbalance now that makes the game uncompetitive in the first place.

Correct.

The large servers must be broken up. You cannot keep 2500 people in a permanent world and expect any kind of competitive environment for all wvw'ers. Some talk about how they will quit if they cannot continue to play with all 2499 of their current friends (lol, I bet you don't really know 5% of your current server-mates to any extent beyond seeing their name in chat every so often). Yet there are tons of the rest of us who put the competitiveness of the game mode above having to be on the same team as "that guy that tagged up once when I was home sick".

Correct.

Yes, there will be some guilds/alliances that try to stack with hardcore players. Guess what -- there are lots of guilds that already do this. And just as there are also guilds that do not reject the non-elites, there will be alliances that do not reject the non-elites.

Correct.

The cries of "casuals will have no place" are patently false. Casuals will have plenty of options. The people who seem most concerned are the ones who insist on being part of an elite guild/alliance but who feel that they are too "casual" to be accepted. Isn't that the very definition of wanting to be carried? If a hardcore wvw guild/alliance doesn't want you because you're "not good enough", why would you want to be in their guild except to be carried? Unless you are part of a 50-man guild where the other 49 are hardcore and you alone are not (which means they are already carrying you), then you will have other casual friends at your level who will ally with you.

You are again, correct.Yet here I am, hardcore player, saying there will not be a place for many casuals.

Most players who lead raids aren't "casual". Managing an alliance isn't super casual. Yet most casuals still want commanders to be able to join and follow. Most casuals still want leaders. Most casuals; even more than hardcore players; need people to guide them. And this isn't something other casual players do much.

There are plenty of casuals who will find a place, especially if they put some effort into it. But the amount of casuals and the amount of casuals willing to put in the effort required to make good, fun groups to play with is way out of proportion. It is already out of proportion now; and this only increases.

The truth is the quality of play casual players in WvW are used to was based on the ability to join better players who show them the ropes whenever they desire. Having many active groups playing on different levels, and being able to join various groups at any time. This is what they demand; and could do many times in the past because we had the veteran population to support it. Now we don't, and I doubt we'll ever return to it.

As a result, the demands which were in the past reasonable aren't nowadays. I don't think there are enough "casual oriented" comms or raidleads in the game for the amount of players that want them. The casuals are getting more casual over time too; what used to be acceptable is now too much effort.

Joining a guild? Talking to other players? Playing with your own group? That isn't casual. Casual is "log whatever spec you desire, join whatever map you desire and expect a group where you can do what you please, how you please to be there and ready". It's genuinely quite close to that. Nobody has time for talking to other players and being part of guilds or communities - they won't even if you beg them. And these players? Goodluck have fun ;)

The gamemode is dying and will continue to die. Not in terms of not having players quite yet. But it certainly has most of its dedicated population, which had huge negative effects on the enjoyability of the gamemode - now overrun mostly by loothungry players with no real interest in the enjoyment WvW can offer - which will accelerate its death.

I think anyone who's willing to put in "basic effort" will be able to find a place in a group, guild or community. Even for casual players. But I do think there will be a shortage of groups who can meet the demands of the casual players; probably because these demands are out of proportion.

[morrolan.9608]

@Redponey.8352 said:I agreed that in tournament some people had burning out because of many hours marathon and that was the main reason that lead anet to stop that but it also remove competition between server.

That the design of WvW which create burning out as the off peak hours has the same weight as prime peak hours. However this not the major reason why many people left this gamemode because of imbalance of tournament. People left because there no more competition between servers in massive pvp gamemode.

OK then prove it.