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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@"Etheri.5406" said:There are a lot of players who agree with you. You can simply make non-meta groups with them. You'll see they wipe a LOT more than the meta-oriented groups most of the time. That's why meta groups are around - they tend to work better, hence meta. And non-meta groups are more and more rare - because it's frustrating to struggle for hours on simple bosses because players are convinced they're helping yet refuse to listen to reason. I've seen fractals where the opening burst of a weaver or DH does more damage than other players during the entire fight.

A long time ago; most players in T4's were reasonably decent and played reasonably effective builds. You didn't need to be as elitist, most things went relatively smooth. But players kept going "hey, you can play whatever you want and it doesnt matter if you're good enough". That's almost true if you're good enough - which most players really are not.

Now there's so many players who think they're helping and doing great - who can do the bosses, too- but do them so slowly and badly it's frustrating for better players to do daily. So they don't; and that's OK.

The elitist barriers aren't a barrier to do T4. It's a barrier to playing with elitists; something you clearly rather not do as your style is completely different. It doesn't stop you from doing the content; it just means you'll have to find an appropriate group (or make your own) and carry your own weight. If your playstyle is effective then that shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah I understand that completely. It's just hard to find non meta groups right now within the time frame I get to complete my dailies, and right now I don't have much time to work through the t4 fractals to be able to raise my personal frac level. It's funny, just the other day, I was in a daily t3 group, we were doing fine, finished 1 frac then they asked me to switch druid, which I was fine with but I said I don't know the meta build to pre-warn, and one just said 'google does' so I just said I'm not really about that so If you guys are set on using a meta druid then I'll leave, and they just said ok bye. It's just disheartening the slow lack of faith in anything but meta slowly creeping down fracts it seems. I am hoping to be able to start working through my fracs soon to start my own groups and maybe find a decent guild to frac with. Appreciate your post, I half expected some angry elitist responses, but yours was refreshing to read, thank you!

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@Milumeo Rinku.7583 said:

The reason this is particularly annoying for me is that I don't even get a chance when people use DPS meters and stuff, yet time and time again the pure DPS builds are constantly being downed or defeated; what use is your DPS build when you can't survive an AoE with a support player? I know I could make a party myself like many suggest, but as i'm starting to break into t4's my personal frac level isn't high enough to initiate some of the dailies. I end up just completing daily t3's because I cannot cross this elitist (whether raid or general) barriers in t4's, which is sad because I actually really enjoy them.

No you're wrong. Those that go down constantly don't know how to play their characters yet. Having actual support character next to them will keep them topped up so they can keep attacking without needing to back off. I don't think you understand what it means to go DPS nor do you understand what true support can do. This happens because you aren't willing to spec all out into a role yet.

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@Milumeo Rinku.7583 said:

Yeah I understand that completely. It's just hard to find non meta groups right now within the time frame I get to complete my dailies, and right now I don't have much time to work through the t4 fractals to be able to raise my personal frac level. It's funny, just the other day, I was in a daily t3 group, we were doing fine, finished 1 frac then they asked me to switch druid, which I was fine with but I said I don't know the meta build to pre-warn, and one just said 'google does' so I just said I'm not really about that so If you guys are set on using a meta druid then I'll leave, and they just said ok bye. It's just disheartening the slow lack of faith in anything but meta slowly creeping down fracts it seems. I am hoping to be able to start working through my fracs soon to start my own groups and maybe find a decent guild to frac with. Appreciate your post, I half expected some angry elitist responses, but yours was refreshing to read, thank you!

Its not so much as using the meta build you just sound like you don't know how to play druid and what your druid is capable of in terms of healing and other party support. I've never played druid before but I bet I know druid capabilities better than you do. In fact you don't want to just copy and paste meta builds to your character. Its only a starting point. You still have to adjust it afterwards.My opinion is don't bother with T3 just buy the AR and jump into T4s. Then you will see what you actually need in terms of DPS if you play DPS, or in terms of healing amount if you play druid. Arcdps will help you adjust your build and help you learn how to attack, its very useful.

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@"Milumeo Rinku.7583" said:

The reason this is particularly annoying for me is that I don't even get a chance when people use DPS meters and stuff, yet time and time again the pure DPS builds are constantly being downed or defeated

Didn't they already gave you a chance when they can see your dps?I just don't understand the hate towards meta builds. It's not some special or weird builds. Good players usually tend to use them or builds pretty close to them without copying them just because they are pretty straight forward. Stack as much damage/support as possible.

Which t3 frac boss took you 2h to complete? On a selfish build like yours you should be able to solo that boss in that time. I suggest looking up the fractal guides on dT site. While i disagree with some of their builds/compositions they have good information there for new players.

The problem with 1 low dps player in a group is that it can make stuff really complicated and basically a 4man clear since not dying isn't bad but it's also not killing the boss faster. A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.You know in t3 you can kill that boss in like 20sec. Normal t3 pugs need multiple minutes just for that boss. And probably even longer with off meta builds. Kiting that boss around for minutes.

And in t4 Dps can become an issue especially 100/99cms if phases become too long.

Players also expect cc, might, spirits and heal from druid. If you say you run celestiel you probably don't have boon duration. While it is possible to stack might in fracs without it, it is not something a beginner does normally.A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

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@"Nephalem.8921" said:A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.Personally, I expect from a good and also a T4 player - we don't speak about cms here - to "know his stuff" and that doesn't mean he can only execute his dps rotation blindly on a golem but adapt to the situation and if things go downwards he'll be able to react. I've seen players gging instantly if things don't go their preferable ways and luckily in a lot of situations they got a kick vote on themselves which I absolutely supported then.Yesterday I've been in a Samarog raid with my alt and we had 4 Deadeyes all of them decorated with the highest PvE titles and peppered with leggy armors - it was a run with requirements. We wiped and one of the first comment from one of them was: "Can the DH please change to guard for more CC". I laughed and commented that it's cool to have 4 times basi venom in one single squad. That was almost too much for them... I mean, if you want to dps race alone or with your friends then do that but don't expect others to do everything else for a.k.a. carry you. It barely works in pugs.

A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

If your group doesn't have vulnerability at all even the warhorn alone won't be enough - set up storm if u really must. Usually it's the same stuff with fury. Don't get me wrong, as a main druid I cry if I see double staff druids especially with only one pet not being swapped but on the other hand if your group is lacking boons so hard it's better to look for another team. I've seen those groups and when I was with them I killed Molten Furnace or Solid Ocean with them and thanked for the run.

And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

You barely find those groups out of cms nowadays and that's what's we're discussing here primarily - T4s. I agree, in cms things have to be different otherwise I just don't even start them.

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The fact remains, Anet has explicitly stated that FOTM is intended to be a stepping stone to Raids in terms of mechanics, difficulty and builds. If you can't even handle stripping boons for the NPNG instability, how can you strip in Raids where some of the bosses REQUIRE you to boonstrip if you want to even damage them? In Raids there are enrage timers which ensure that you need to have good DPS. The point is, this is intended to be high level content and you'll find that static groups with meta comps can complete the same runs in half the time or less than pug groups (most can't even clear raids). This brings me to my next point.

My static can complete CMs, T4s and Recs in 45mins-1hour daily depending on the dailies and we don't even consider ourselves as top tier. Most T4 pugs runs take the same amount of time or longer. Now my question is, would you rather spend 45mins-1hour doing 3 fractals or would you rather spend the same amount of time doing more things and getting more loot? If you want to take your time and do a longer run fair play to you and that's fine, but don't expect others to want to do the same, especially if the group specifically asks for certain requirements.

There's an expected level of understanding when specific things are asked for in LFG. If I want a druid for my party, I expect the druid to provide not just healing for the group, but the necessary buffs to maximise group DPS as well because that's what a Druid is SUPPOSED to do. That's the way this game works, there are specific builds for each class which are outright better than others. There's no one size fits all if that's the right expression for it.

On the other side of the coin, I get it, it's just a T4 run. These days the really "elite" groups don't even run healers or run minimal healing so if you're in a party asking for a druid and then acting elitist, IMHO you're just being a tryhard. I've seen for myself how some of those who act elitist can't even operate in a truly "elite" speedrun. That said, I've seen players who just ignore the requirements that have been explicitly stated and then get upset when they're kicked. There's a simple solution to this people. Read the LFG before you click join and if you don't have the required build to join a group don't join it, go start your own group where you can do the run at a level you're more comfortable with. If you want to join the better groups, there are guilds out there that are willing to train you if you're not at the required ability level and get your gear and rotations sorted out. These days Anet has made Ascended gear much easier for the average player to attain. This shouldn't even be an issue.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.Yes you can also kill gorseval with 4 updrafts. It's just not something that makes it easier. Especially if you send one player ahead to the next checkpoint and don't play with a healer. The player will get ported back.Yesterday I've been in a Samarog raid with my alt and we had 4 Deadeyes all of them decorated with the highest PvE titles and peppered with leggy armors - it was a run with requirements. We wiped and one of the first comment from one of them was: "Can the DH please change to guard for more CC". I laughed and commented that it's cool to have 4 times basi venom in one single squad. That was almost too much for them... I mean, if you want to dps race alone or with your friends then do that but don't expect others to do everything else for a.k.a. carry you. It barely works in pugs.

I've seen failed sama cc's while on core warr with double mace, bulls charge and rampage. Even using mace f1 twice wasn't enough.

A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

If your group doesn't have vulnerability at all even the warhorn alone won't be enough - set up storm if u really must. Usually it's the same stuff with fury. Don't get me wrong, as a main druid I cry if I see double staff druids especially with only one pet not being swapped but on the other hand if your group is lacking boons so hard it's better to look for another team. I've seen those groups and when I was with them I killed Molten Furnace or Solid Ocean with them and thanked for the run.

We played with power druid and double weaver during last balance patch. Only constant vuln source are chrono aa + some warr stacks. They have slow ramp up so the fast vuln on axe/warhorn help a lot. Storm glyph isn't up in every phase. But this is only a problem when playing without DHs, Holos etc.

T4's were way more elitist back in the days. I remember kicks happening after/during swamp when the guard didn't use wall or people died. Nowadays most guards probably don't even know that they have reflects.Or the requirement for warr to solo mai trin cannon + stack part while the rest stealthes. Things were so simple without a healer. Some bosses just oneshotted even warrs so nobody had to think about heal or defensive stats.Underground facility was also almost impossible without an engi/thief.

But it really helps a lot to just check some fractal guides if you are not playing with a speed run group. Some strategies are really simple and make the tedious fractals actually fun.

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@squallaus.8321 said:No you're wrong. Those that go down constantly don't know how to play their characters yet. Having actual support character next to them will keep them topped up so they can keep attacking without needing to back off. I don't think you understand what it means to go DPS nor do you understand what true support can do. This happens because you aren't willing to spec all out into a role yet.

This is what I meant, they don't know how to fully utilize their builds to their full potential, or lack the ability to play core mechanics making ANY build redundant at higher level play. I understand a true support player could easily keep up a DPS player when they're decent enough to know their class mechanics, boss mechanics and timings, i didn't mean to come across like I was undermining support roles at all.

I do usually fully spec into specific roles, hence choosing logical trait builds, but like I say it's never going to be as good as meta or a more improved build.

Its not so much as using the meta build you just sound like you don't know how to play druid and what your druid is capable of in terms of healing and other party support. I've never played druid before but I bet I know druid capabilities better than you do. In fact you don't want to just copy and paste meta builds to your character. Its only a starting point. You still have to adjust it afterwards.

I know how to play druid, I played it a lot during and throughout the time of HoT release, but I have no doubt you will know their capabilities more than me. Like I say, I've never played it meta I don't think, but I know the core mechanics and have an idea of what their capabilities of through forums, chats with people in-game ect. Saying that, I haven't touched it for a while (wanted to come back to it after crafting nevermore as a refreshing change) so right now I'm pretty clueless for sure. It's just my play style I guess; sure there are specific builds which really shine on certain classes which really bring out their true potential, but I personally love to to try out new things everyday to stop my play style becoming stale, so sticking to a particular trait which would be fitting for a meta build for example, I'd run for maybe 3 days, then try something new as it keeps it fresh for me. I love building my own builds with what sounds fun and logically decent to play but this isn't always great for optimal frac or instanced play. I understand that, all I'm wishing for is a higher frequency of relaxed groups, looking for a laid-back, chill and fun run.

My opinion is don't bother with T3 just buy the AR and jump into T4s. Then you will see what you actually need in terms of DPS if you play DPS, or in terms of healing amount if you play druid. Arcdps will help you adjust your build and help you learn how to attack, its very useful.

Yeah, I understand that even for my playstyle i'm gonna need to make certain changes. I play a variety of roles so i'll have to adjust as needed. Thanks for the tips :)

@Nephalem.8921 said:Didn't they already gave you a chance when they can see your dps?I just don't understand the hate towards meta builds. It's not some special or weird builds. Good players usually tend to use them or builds pretty close to them without copying them just because they are pretty straight forward. Stack as much damage/support as possible.

If i'm truly honest, I haven't YET been kicked based on DPS info. There was just 1 particular situation where someone asked me what build I was running and I explained how I like to play. I asked him if I was under performing, and he just said he looked at that last boss and said a little. So I'm not too sure about this yet. I think I exaggerated, I was having a nightmare at work that day and while the person in question was really amicable in it, with everything that happened that day it all added up and felt like people were on my case that day. So ignore the extent of that statement xD

I don't hate the meta so to speak, it's more just adopting pre-made builds, idk it just feels mundane to me. Perhaps I do run something that isn't far off sometimes, I wouldn't know, but there's just something about slotting every skill in turn and creating a build that I really love in this game.

Which t3 frac boss took you 2h to complete? On a selfish build like yours you should be able to solo that boss in that time. I suggest looking up the fractal guides on dT site. While i disagree with some of their builds/compositions they have good information there for new players.

It was the desert frac with the high priestess sunspear and the different god phases. The fight didn't take 2 hours per se, it was more like some left, others joined, which kept happening. I could try it solo but the build I ran for that particular time didn't have enough CC for the CC phase pre-mob / transition thing for just me. That and I'm probably not that good xD.

The problem with 1 low dps player in a group is that it can make stuff really complicated and basically a 4man clear since not dying isn't bad but it's also not killing the boss faster. A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

I understand the problem with having a less than optimal build, but like I said to squallaus, I'm just wishful for a higher frequency of laid back frac players and teams. I don't mind so much about killing a boss in a quick time or having a quick run, a lot of the time I actually really enjoy the challenge of being in a less experienced party as there's the extra difficulty of trying to rez people, while dodging AoE's, and sustaining yourself through a long boss fight, I enjoy stuff like that!

And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

Ehh, smooth is subjective I guess, your smooth isn't probably my smooth true haha, but I've had seamless and swift frac runs, in t3 at least as I havn't quite been able to break into t4's yet for the reasons discussed.

@"Vinceman.4572" said:But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say with my post. I apologize to the others if it felt like I was slating DPS, roles in general or meta, I didn't intend to, I just mean that frequently I'm in groups which use supposedly meta builds but do not adhere to the mechanics of the fractal and blindly follow their meta rotations without any thought for dodging ect. If we have the DPS which should be noticable within the first couple seconds of the ice elemental, sure go for a quick DPS burst kill, but if not, adapt and use what the frac provides and indeed intends for you to use

@RAZOR.7246 said:If you want to take your time and do a longer run fair play to you and that's fine, but don't expect others to want to do the same, especially if the group specifically asks for certain requirements.

Not sure if this was a general comment for directed at me, but I generally do not mind longer runs. I wouldn't ever join a party with requirements though, I do respect those who wish for quick and effective runs, and I understand when specifically asking for chrono - druid etc that is going to entail an optimal build, gear and knowledge of how to play as such, and I wouldn't join because that's outright disrespectful.

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I have to say i like super tryhard runs but I also enjoy normal runs. But today i joined T4 run that did deepstone for 35 minutes. Then i joined meta group and did remaining 2 dailies and recomended in roughly same time.

I think fractal players can be separated into 4 typesA) they dont play meta and dont know fractal mechanicsB) they play meta because they cannot do it without it (dont know mechanics). Usualy have only Basic knowlage of classC) they know fractal mechanics but play nonmeta buildD) they know fractals and play meta because it is even faster (and more fun)

Both D and C are ok with me. Usualy B needs to be carried and I leave A players when I discover that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

They probably run T4s with the CMs together. So you get less people just listing for T4s. This morning I did T4s running DPS. With a chrono and druid in party, the other 2 DPS in the group was doing 4k and i was doing 20k at subject 6. Barely managed to kill it in 1 burst.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

Also I know many "veteran" people that do not play GW2 atm, since there is no new content. Will probably change if Anet decides to introduce new frac CMs / Raids.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

It's either this or pug t4+cm. The start will be hard if you have no cosmic essences at all.

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From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.That was always the case but i guess some more experianced players are at vacation and some new players reached t4 since there is hollyday in schools.Also last fractal is rather boring for most experianced players since it is easy but there is not that many oppurtunities to skip something so some experianced players might have left since there wasnt been anything new challanging to play in a long time.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

On point.

Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

On point.

Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

On point.

Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

Fortunately even the cookie cutter standards without understanding are typically better than almost any "non-meta" fun build you see around.copy pasting builds >> self-invented longbow ranger, signet warrior and minion master reaper.

Especially since it links to a different attitude. One of players valuing how good they do versus one of players valuing fun and how they personally feel without regard for their effectiveness. Why should a group care about players who don't care for the group? Why would players with no interest in being effective be likely to be good?

I think there is a significant drop in high-end raiders playing the game currently. EU raid LFG has been exceptionally inactive lately. Sure, mondays and tuesdays have plenty of clears... Yet during the weekend even at prime times the amount of LFGs have dropped significantly. Also all of my raid groups are struggling with player retention. It's probably something to do with the hardcore PvE population being bored and feeling ignored. I doubt it will get better, more and more will quit or take breaks. And as they do, the elitism and skillgap will increase further rather than decrease.

A new raid wing that's good would fix some of those issues tho.

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@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

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I am picky, I want to run a setup that I know it will work. I rather wait 5-10min to form a team, use only 1 set of food+enhanc, and have a lot less chance to wipe or taking too long for lack of CC/DPS/QKSS etc. Not sure what's the problem with that, I open a group and search for what I want, if players like yourself aren't up for it----> don't join. Simple as that.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There are players seeking that, too.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

Fractals were more difficult when they were released with a maximum level of 50 than they are now. All content in GW2 must progressively become easier. Even without gear progression, through insane powercreep and nerfs to allow casuals to "progress" without getting better at the game. This isn't really a design point of view, but it's a clear common demand on both reddit and the forums. I think many aspects of fractals have drastically improved (See : new swamp) and the quality of the encounters is much better than it used to be...

Fractals are nowadays mostly a daily geargrind full of players who do it for the rewards with little to no interest in the challenge, fun or the rest of the group. The exact same issue we have in WvW, PvP and many open world events. Players prefer to do istan because the rewards. SW because the rewards. Afk pipfarming in wvw and pvp because the rewards. Meanwhile negatively impacting the fun and enjoyment of the game.

I enjoyed GW2 as a game where I could focus on being competitive and improving rather than grinding better gear. Yet... the longer the game goes on the more players demand repetitive grinds over fun content because "muh rewards" and "fashionwars2". Nowadays fractals are mostly a daily geargrind full of players who do it for that - the rewards - with little to no interest in the challenge or the fun. As a result, i've long given up on them.

I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

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