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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]


Chaith.8256

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@Chaith.8256 said:Updated after July balance patch, 2018

  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold. New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

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@Chaith.8256 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

do you think toss elixir H could just pulse protection to draw a line between why people would make the choice to take either inventions or alchemy or both, obviously with the addition of the added heal and since it really needs something to bring it into line with HT

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@ukuni.8745 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

do you think toss elixir H could just pulse protection to draw a line between why people would make the choice to take either inventions or alchemy or both, obviously with the addition of the added heal and since it really needs something to bring it into line with HT

That was my first thought but then i felt it was too similar to Medic Gyro. But yes, that would be doable. Elixir H basically requires both inventions and alchemy currently and I dislike that

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@Chaith.8256 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

I would prefer to make Applied Force give their current benefits to the teammates, max target 5, would give it a good support flavor besides of the current boon spam niche that its being used for.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

Core Engi is underpowered in PvP, no amount of nerfs to anything else will make it good, cause they'd have to nerf 15 specs. Firebrand makes tempest obsolete in PvP, it should be fair to where they both are useful. I'm not trying to tick people off.. Unless the truth hurts :trollface:

Except its not, i dunno if you're new to engi but ive won plenty this season playing a classic static discharge boon spam build, less damage then holo but more sustain as it should be, firebrand making tempest obsolete is mainly cause scourge (which is broken as kitten and will be nerfed...) just wipes tempest off the game due to tempest not having enough cleanse to handle it. Firebrand has less healing but more stability and cleanse to make up for it.

First time Engi here
, grats on your God of PvP title with Static Discharge core Engi

@Chaith.8256 this just made me spit out my cereal XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD

Oh, +1 for the Elixir X suggestion. Very much!

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

I would prefer to make Applied Force give their current benefits to the teammates, max target 5, would give it a good support flavor besides of the current boon spam niche that its being used for.

DPS Scrapper in PvP environments needs the in combat mobility, so bad. 130 range attacks, no snares, and no strong movement skills. Taking applied force seriously kills your survivability/utility, it has to make you into a good damage dealer.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

I would prefer to make Applied Force give their current benefits to the teammates, max target 5, would give it a good support flavor besides of the current boon spam niche that its being used for.

DPS Scrapper in PvP environments needs the in combat mobility, so bad. 130 range attacks, no snares, and no strong movement skills. Taking applied force seriously kills your survivability/utility, it has to make you into a good damage dealer.

I see your point, but also remember how abysmal the Scrapper situation is in PvE, giving it support ideas to Scrapper seems like the natural path for Scrapper, considering that our DPS needs are being covered by Holosmith and Core.

Why not make one of the gyros give mobility if that's your concern? Blast Gyro has a toolbelt dedicated on that, rework that, or make The Shredder Gyro more usfeul providing those Mobility needs you mean.

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:

Updated after July balance patch, 2018
  • Elixir H: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.
  • Toss Elixir H: **New: Instead of its current effects, Toss Elixir H will create a 240 radius light field that pulses 4x, duration 3s, removing 1 condition from allies and healing for 319 per pulse.

    Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.
    New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

(Updated the suggestion list and removed some suggestions that are no longer needed after latest Balance patch)

I would prefer to make Applied Force give their current benefits to the teammates, max target 5, would give it a good support flavor besides of the current boon spam niche that its being used for.

DPS Scrapper in PvP environments needs the in combat mobility, so bad. 130 range attacks, no snares, and no strong movement skills. Taking applied force seriously kills your survivability/utility, it has to make you into a good damage dealer.

I see your point, but also remember how abysmal the Scrapper situation is in PvE, giving it support ideas to Scrapper seems like the natural path for Scrapper, considering that our DPS needs are being covered by Holosmith and Core.

Why not make one of the gyros give mobility if that's your concern? Blast Gyro has a toolbelt dedicated on that, rework that, or make The Shredder Gyro more usfeul providing those Mobility needs you mean.

Scrapper in PvE, hmm... That's like renegade in PvP, it's a total mismatch and you might as well specialize it for specific modes

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What would you think of removing the swiftness from holo leap and making streamlined kits also apply its swiftness to swapping to holoforge, yea i know not exactly an idea in the spirit of this thread but it would help shore up some of the disparity in how well core/scrapper and holo can utilize the variety of combinations that can be used EG holo leap invigorating speed and excessive energy, core and scrapper have no viable means to reproduce this effect to such a strong degree especially if against enemy's that can strip boons its alot harder for a core/scrapper engi to recover the same effect or alternatively do you think there is a way core and scrapper could be buffed to be able to utilize this combo to the same degree.

Another example is the converter holo, core and scrapper can do the same thing but neither can do it as well as holosmith and provide the same benefits outside of converting conditions like control damage and support outside of converting conditions like the benefits from hard light arena, you could say that scrapper shores up this disparity a bit from its own flavour of support from gyros and such but core definatly cannot do that, i was thinking maybe this change could help in that regard.

  • Elixir C only removes conditions instead of converting them
  • reduced cooldown on elixir C
  • Blasting zone increases power and gives some of the engineers boons to allys when using a blast finisher.

i think that change would make core scrapper and holo have a unique flavor with a converter build without making another one over the top in comparison to another, just my thoughts tho.

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@ukuni.8745 said:What would you think of removing the swiftness from holo leap and making streamlined kits also apply its swiftness to swapping to holoforge, yea i know not exactly an idea in the spirit of this thread but it would help shore up some of the disparity in how well core/scrapper and holo can utilize the variety of combinations that can be used EG holo leap invigorating speed and excessive energy, core and scrapper have no viable means to reproduce this effect to such a strong degree especially if against enemy's that can strip boons its alot harder for a core/scrapper engi to recover the same effect or alternatively do you think there is a way core and scrapper could be buffed to be able to utilize this combo to the same degree.

Another example is the converter holo, core and scrapper can do the same thing but neither can do it as well as holosmith and provide the same benefits outside of converting conditions like control damage and support outside of converting conditions like the benefits from hard light arena, you could say that scrapper shores up this disparity a bit from its own flavour of support from gyros and such but core definatly cannot do that, i was thinking maybe this change could help in that regard.

  • Elixir C only removes conditions instead of converting them
  • reduced cooldown on elixir C
  • Blasting zone increases power and gives some of the engineers boons to allys when using a blast finisher.

i think that change would make core scrapper and holo have a unique flavor with a converter build without making another one over the top in comparison to another, just my thoughts tho.

I agree, things like Invigorating speed, kinetic battery, anti-corrosion plating & purity of purpose - these are way more useful for Holosmith and synergies between core and Scrapper with traitlines should be adjusted up.

I don't see how your proposed changes address that imbalance because it's all accessible by Holosmith. Here would be some examples I can think of:

  • Glob Shot now requires target to fire, but reduced to 5s CD and granting you swiftness on use instead of bounce in addition to my suggestions to increased velocity, damage, and add homing. This would allow non-holo to use invigorating speed perfectly.
  • My proposed changes to Streamlined kits make it so multi kit core Engi has good condition removal if you use multiple kits to harness purity of purpose.
  • My proposed Scrapper changes make medic gyro and Reconstruction field much more fair which will use anti-corrosion plating well.
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@Chaith.8256 said:

@ukuni.8745 said:What would you think of removing the swiftness from holo leap and making streamlined kits also apply its swiftness to swapping to holoforge, yea i know not exactly an idea in the spirit of this thread but it would help shore up some of the disparity in how well core/scrapper and holo can utilize the variety of combinations that can be used EG holo leap invigorating speed and excessive energy, core and scrapper have no viable means to reproduce this effect to such a strong degree especially if against enemy's that can strip boons its alot harder for a core/scrapper engi to recover the same effect or alternatively do you think there is a way core and scrapper could be buffed to be able to utilize this combo to the same degree.

Another example is the converter holo, core and scrapper can do the same thing but neither can do it as well as holosmith and provide the same benefits outside of converting conditions like control damage and support outside of converting conditions like the benefits from hard light arena, you could say that scrapper shores up this disparity a bit from its own flavour of support from gyros and such but core definatly cannot do that, i was thinking maybe this change could help in that regard.
  • Elixir C only removes conditions instead of converting them
  • reduced cooldown on elixir C
  • Blasting zone increases power and gives some of the engineers boons to allys when using a blast finisher.

i think that change would make core scrapper and holo have a unique flavor with a converter build without making another one over the top in comparison to another, just my thoughts tho.

I don't see how your proposed changes address that imbalance because it's all accessible by Holosmith. Here would be some examples I can think of:

ahahaha i didnt think that threw properly joys of lacking sleep

  • Glob Shot now requires target to fire, but reduced to 5s CD and granting you swiftness on use instead of bounce in addition to my suggestions to increased velocity, damage, and add homing. This would allow non-holo to use invigorating speed perfectly.
  • My proposed changes to Streamlined kits make it so multi kit core Engi has good condition removal if you use multiple kits to harness purity of purpose.
  • My proposed Scrapper changes make medic gyro and Reconstruction field much more fair which will use anti-corrosion plating well.

one of the other things to is that holosmith can provide decent benefits as is with its utility's even if it isnt clearing conditions and not to mention the large increase in damage from holoforge and control, some of your suggestions for scrapper do help bring some of that status quo back tho which is good.

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Edit: added suggestion to brand Scrapper as a WvW spec as well:

Gyros are being re-branded as a 10Target affecting WvW niche. Medic Gyro's healing, Bulwark's Watchful Eye, Blast Gyro's Explosion, Shredder Gyro's attacks, these all will affect either 10 allies or enemies.

Combined with my other suggestions like adding a trait so Gyros take no damage for 3s in master tier and various support buffs, it would really be in a good spot.

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@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, you can no longer score glancing attacks, gain might.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, Hammer attacks can no longer be glancing hits, gain might.

Hmm I dont know about this one though. Having two traits on Hammer just seems weird to me to be honest. Maybe it would be better to merge the stab on dodge with might gain and the 10% damage increase with glance invuln

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, Hammer attacks can no longer be glancing hits, gain might.

Or, while under the effects of stability, have immunity to weakness in general, instead of narrowing it down to just hammer. Interesting suggestion none-the-less.

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@The V.8759 said:

@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, Hammer attacks can no longer be glancing hits, gain might.

Hmm I dont know about this one though. Having two traits on Hammer just seems weird to me to be honest. Maybe it would be better to merge the stab on dodge with might gain and the 10% damage increase with glance invuln

Yeah I'm re-suggesting it so all hits are glance invuln while you're stabilized. No second hammer trait

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, Hammer attacks can no longer be glancing hits, gain might.

Or, while under the effects of stability, have immunity to weakness in general, instead of narrowing it down to just hammer. Interesting suggestion none-the-less.

I thought that was too good because it would ignore the endurance reducing effect of weakness too. Inability to score a glancing hit is more the intent

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The more I think about your suggestion, the more I'm temped to not like it. Think about it, Engineer has good condi removal in general (allthough reliant on a few traits). The weakness invuln would mainly be useful in PvP/WvW, where I would rather just cleanse it and apply weakness on the enemy. So what I suggest is the following:

Perfectly Weighted: (Adept)Hammer skills deal 10% increased damage. Stunning or dazing a foe applies weakness and vulnerability on them

Mass MomentumEvading an attack gives you stability (4s, 8s icd), gain might when you have stability

And then there is the spot open for the gyro trait you suggested without removing Expert Examination. It would also make the trait lines more logical as it was intented in the first trait makeover:

Top: Superspeed lineShocking Speed - Rapid Regeneration - Final SalvoMid - Offensive linePerfectly Weighted - Mass Momentum - Applied ForceBot - Barriers/protectionRecovery Matrix - Gyro trait you suggested - Adaptive Armor

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@The V.8759 said:I just read this post and it should stay on top. So bump

Thanks!

Also re-worded Mass Momentum suggestion:

Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, Hammer attacks can no longer be glancing hits, gain might.

Or, while under the effects of stability, have immunity to weakness in general, instead of narrowing it down to just hammer. Interesting suggestion none-the-less.

I thought that was too good because it would ignore the endurance reducing effect of weakness too. Inability to score a glancing hit is more the intent

It would also fit thematically with what mass momentum is, in terms of physics. Though, I think I would like to see the toughness converted to power kept, as well as your suggestion for weakness invuln, for this purpose as well. Poor Scrapper just needs a bit of a rework.

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@The V.8759 said:The more I think about your suggestion, the more I'm temped to not like it. Think about it, Engineer has good condi removal in general (allthough reliant on a few traits). The weakness invuln would mainly be useful in PvP/WvW, where I would rather just cleanse it and apply weakness on the enemy. So what I suggest is the following:

Perfectly Weighted: (Adept)Hammer skills deal 10% increased damage. Stunning or dazing a foe applies weakness and vulnerability on them

Mass MomentumEvading an attack gives you stability (4s, 8s icd), gain might when you have stability

And then there is the spot open for the gyro trait you suggested without removing Expert Examination. It would also make the trait lines more logical as it was intented in the first trait makeover:

Top: Superspeed lineShocking Speed - Rapid Regeneration - Final SalvoMid - Offensive linePerfectly Weighted - Mass Momentum - Applied ForceBot - Barriers/protectionRecovery Matrix - Gyro trait you suggested - Adaptive Armor

I thought about it, most Engineer builds do not have good condition removal in general, I would say its Hard Light Arena & Anti-Corrosive-Plating combo that has good condition removal. Necro might corruption has a busted uptime on Scrapper, even in a condition clear focused build. EDIT: Glancing hit immune would work well with builds that don't focus on condition removal, even though you'll die to conditions at least you can not be severely hampered.

Yes, my vision for Scrapper is to be a PvP/WvW/Open world PvE only spec, your suggestions don't help it do PvE damage either, I think it's obviously just not heading that direction.

I don't like tying in the weakness/vuln on STUN/DAZE with Hammer damage because I think the Stun/Daze activated traits should go away, it's a relic of a bygone era where Gyros used to daze on death, and it wasn't even used then. It needs to be scrappered ( :sunglasses: ) and a new mechanic put in its place, not reincarnated.

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Agreed that its from the daze on gyro destroy era, but honestly, Scrapper is already fine for open world PvE since.... Basicly every build works there.

Therefore I think mainly the weakness applying is still important to hold in the game, since Scrapper main design is to be a bruiser, which is mostly PvP oriënted. If we include launch in the trait, it could be fine, assuming they also buff Spinning Gyro and Spare capacitor. Then scrapper would have Thunderclap, bomb Gyro and spare capacitor that could proc it. Also rifle could proc it if you dont want hammer.

Or alternatively, you could go further and say "applying CC or removing a stack of stability applies weakness."

EDIT: My proposed trait would actually synergize well with hammer. Since you have 3x daze aswell when leaping through a lightning field. That field is on Hammer already but can also come if traited gyros

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