Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver)

In your opinions, should these classes be pushing similar/equal DPS numbers (I know it's hard to get equal) or should one be ahead of the other? Consider fractals and raids.

Personally, I see the arguments for both. Some say Weavers should push out more DPS due to its more complex rotation. Others say Deadeye should since it has less sustain and trying to position yourself with a rifle in a raid is not very easy. Deadeye also has less cleave than a Weaver.

Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver) 120 votes

Deadeye should push out more damage.
30%
BlaqueFyre.5678Geisterlicht.6083Alatar.7364Asum.4960Zaraki.5784LucianTheAngelic.7054Cirrus.7413Hot Boy.7138Herdum.3194Knox.8962welns.3245babazhook.6805Crossroads.5174Shadowmoon.7986Crab Fear.1624Kain Francois.4328Coolguy.8702Nephalem.8921Ceit.7619Nivik.2961 37 votes
Weaver should push out more damage.
42%
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They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.
26%
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Comments

  • NICENIKESHOE.7128NICENIKESHOE.7128 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2018
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    It's all about effort and reward for games. If someone puts more effort in they should be rewarded more. Unfortunately with the initial system in thief you're almost guarantee not going to have the same complexity as attunements. While you can argue it's the same difficulty if you perfected both, the extra time and effort of perfecting weaver should naturally be compensated.

    Cleave is rarely an issue in raid btw. While you do have few odd boss mechanics and mobs (that die within seconds), most of the time 2 target cleaves from D/D thief is sufficient. Also positioning with thief rifle takes some thinking but it's the same with few staff weaver channels. Most thief will go to dagger for safe options as well.

    Also please stop with the no utility myth. Other than cleave thief brings second best CC (750) in game without sacrificing much dps (thief guild's long CD means good burst but minor sustain increase). You can do the math if you want but most dps builds in raid only have equal or less CC potential, I can only think about 1-2 specs that may bring more and they certainly are not top damage dealers. Majority of dps specs may need to compromise their skill slot to match thief.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    DE should have more dps, weaver should have bigger burst. Lets say DE has 35k constant dps from start, while weaver gets 40k burst with 32k dps.

    Noobs will want DE because it's reliable, advanced players will want weaver because it can potentially phase bosses faster. Burst from weaver is also easy to mess up, so average player will always be worse than deadeye and pro ele will always perform better than DE. Phasing bosses faster is also group dps dependent so you'd either stack weavers or not use them at all.

    The problem is: where do you fit condi engi and no cleave power chrono? Condi engi is more complex than weaver, but brings more utility. Same situation with chrono and deadeye.

    What happens with other classes if you can stack only these 2 (4) builds?

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The bigger issue is the basis of the discussion itself. Thief is heavily focused in burst damage and duel..... most so then any other class at its core (which includes Mesmer). 80% of what a Thief IS, is completely irrelevant to Raids because of what they emphasize..... pure sustained damage.

    If you make the argument that builds should be rewarded for rotation difficulty, then Core Engineer should be Meta by a wide margin. But this is a false premise! Because despite the mechanical similarity between Ele and Engie Skill juggling, the skills themselves emphasize completely different functionality. In fact, they're actually inversions of each other. Ele is designed with an emphasis on damage, with secondary support/utility. Engineer is designed with an emphasis on support and utility, with damage secondary. Engineer's skills can't reach the peak damage of Ele, because its skills aren't centralized around it the way Ele is.

    The situation with Deadeye is a completely problem. Thief normally caps out on sustain damage, because most of its skills are dedicated to setting up a stealth attack as a take down strike on a single target. Daredevil has less emphasis on stealth, and more emphasis on shut down, and got strong sustain damage to compensate for losing Stealth's burst damage. What Deadeye is doing now is giving the thief the ability to chain Stealth attacks... and the speed at which they can cycle this is making it viable as sustain damage. This definitely wasn't what the Devs had in mind with the DE changes..... they just needed something to make Malice pay off with an aggressive playstyle. But when you look at the design changes, they're all focused on how it works in PvP and WvW, where windows of opportunity are small. When malice was passive, they were incentivized to wait for malice to build up before attacking; but it also lead to opening strikes that could one-shot a significant number of half-glass builds. The second change to make malice building dependent on attacking, while malice pay off depended on stealth, created a situation where the whole mechanic was at odds with itself. This last change fixed the problem of accessing the pay off...... but now its created a problem where it can keep chaining 5-digit bursts in succession.

    Its not a question of complexity, but if a burst oriented mechanics should be allowed to output this level of sustained damage.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    If you make the argument that builds should be rewarded for rotation difficulty, then Core Engineer should be Meta by a wide margin.

    All that you can say with certainty because of that is "there are other factors involved". Which is true. However, complexity is also a factor, as evidenced by the lower popularity of high-complexity, low-performance builds in comparison to low-complexity, low-performance ones. They're both out of favor, but the easier ones are still played more.

    Same goes (obviously) for group utility, CC, survivability, cleave... basically anything that can be regarded as either advantage or a drawback. They all influence players' decision to play this or that, so they have to be accounted for in balance. And yes, the "burst - sustain" balance you speak of is also on the list.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    DE should have more dps, weaver should have bigger burst. Lets say DE has 35k constant dps from start, while weaver gets 40k burst with 32k dps.

    Noobs will want DE because it's reliable, advanced players will want weaver because it can potentially phase bosses faster. Burst from weaver is also easy to mess up, so average player will always be worse than deadeye and pro ele will always perform better than DE. Phasing bosses faster is also group dps dependent so you'd either stack weavers or not use them at all.

    The problem is: where do you fit condi engi and no cleave power chrono? Condi engi is more complex than weaver, but brings more utility. Same situation with chrono and deadeye.

    What happens with other classes if you can stack only these 2 (4) builds?

    I agree with this for the most part. Higher spike for weaver and higher sustained dps for deadeye to give both a purpose in a group, but over the course of a fight they should average out somewhat the same if played well. Sounds fair to me.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2018

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Its not a question of complexity, but if a burst oriented mechanics should be allowed to output this level of sustained damage.

    is it a burst build tho?
    i think before the rework someone made the suggestion of an inverted malice system so the old system in reverse. mark and gain full malice wich depletes over time, with this you would have a strong opener and a cooldown phase. as opposed to old system : slow build up and then constant higher singular hits or new system quick build + high single hit altering. neither the old nor the new malice system creates a downtime in pressure wich means they are both build around sustained damage not burst, despite some single skills hit higher in a single hit then many other skills. maybe thats what thief should be like as it allways has had the option to take the initative and be rather flexible in timing. if thief was really burst centric, it would need way more burst damage in PvE to be relevant and in PvP modes people would less complain about thieves as they could expect a downtime after avoiding a burst.
    thief currently does sustained high singluar attacks, but thats not bursting.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Its not a question of complexity, but if a burst oriented mechanics should be allowed to output this level of sustained damage.

    is it a burst build tho?
    i think before the rework someone made the suggestion of an inverted malice system so the old system in reverse. mark and gain full malice wich depletes over time, with this you would have a strong opener and a cooldown phase. as opposed to old system : slow build up and then constant higher singular hits or new system quick build + high single hit altering. neither the old nor the new malice system creates a downtime in pressure wich means they are both build around sustained damage not burst, despite some single skills hit higher in a single hit then many other skills. maybe thats what thief should be like as it allways has had the option to take the initative and be rather flexible in timing. if thief was really burst centric, it would need way more burst damage in PvE to be relevant and in PvP modes people would less complain about thieves as they could expect a downtime after avoiding a burst.
    thief currently does sustained high singluar attacks, but thats not bursting.

    Its definitely a burst build/attack, because most of the damage is heavily loaded into singular actions. Thief Stealth attacks are designed to either finish a target, or severely wound them. This is normally followed by a period of lower damage or evasion as they setup another around of attacks. Some builds can go for high pressure to finish off the target, but is usually riskier because its not nearly as front loaded as something like backstab.

    You're splitting hairs on the fact that a series of high damage, front loaded attacks suddenly gets classified as sustain, because they can be chained. But name any other skill where 40k spike damage in a single hit is considered "sustain damage'.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Its not a question of complexity, but if a burst oriented mechanics should be allowed to output this level of sustained damage.

    is it a burst build tho?
    i think before the rework someone made the suggestion of an inverted malice system so the old system in reverse. mark and gain full malice wich depletes over time, with this you would have a strong opener and a cooldown phase. as opposed to old system : slow build up and then constant higher singular hits or new system quick build + high single hit altering. neither the old nor the new malice system creates a downtime in pressure wich means they are both build around sustained damage not burst, despite some single skills hit higher in a single hit then many other skills. maybe thats what thief should be like as it allways has had the option to take the initative and be rather flexible in timing. if thief was really burst centric, it would need way more burst damage in PvE to be relevant and in PvP modes people would less complain about thieves as they could expect a downtime after avoiding a burst.
    thief currently does sustained high singluar attacks, but thats not bursting.

    Its definitely a burst build/attack, because most of the damage is heavily loaded into singular actions. Thief Stealth attacks are designed to either finish a target, or severely wound them. This is normally followed by a period of lower damage or evasion as they setup another around of attacks. Some builds can go for high pressure to finish off the target, but is usually riskier because its not nearly as front loaded as something like backstab.

    You're splitting hairs on the fact that a series of high damage, front loaded attacks suddenly gets classified as sustain, because they can be chained. But name any other skill where 40k spike damage in a single hit is considered "sustain damage'.

    your too much on the actual number of the hits, wich is completly besides the point.
    the difference between burst and sustained damage is the time between the spikes in damage, it is short in sustained damage and longer in burst.
    in PvP those singular hits are considered burst as the HP of the targets is alot lower and by it being single hit it is alot better to apply then any multihit burst.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    Actually DE builds aren't burst. Weaver is. Look at the dps graph from a benchmark.

  • VanWilder.6923VanWilder.6923 Member ✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    Ele got nerfed, my T4 party laughed at my dps earlier today. Still farming fractal to gear up my Thief with Berserker using DeadEye.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

  • Frozey.8513Frozey.8513 Member ✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

    I agree ele has useless "utility" that nobody ever touches because it's a major dps loss and covered by other classes. Unlike thief, who has actual group utility called "Basilisk Venom".

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

    I agree ele has useless "utility" that nobody ever touches because it's a major dps loss and covered by other classes. Unlike thief, who has actual group utility called "Basilisk Venom".

    Ele has access to all the utility during the fight even if it is a dps loss. If kitten hits the fan and you need to save yourself you still have option to do that, while Thief does not. Being dead is a bigger dps loss than switching to use some utility.

    Nonsense. If the situation is so bad that I need to attune Water, all I can do is delay the wipe by a few seconds. Very utility, so balance.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

    I agree ele has useless "utility" that nobody ever touches because it's a major dps loss and covered by other classes. Unlike thief, who has actual group utility called "Basilisk Venom".

    Ele has access to all the utility during the fight even if it is a dps loss. If kitten hits the fan and you need to save yourself you still have option to do that, while Thief does not. Being dead is a bigger dps loss than switching to use some utility.

    2.8k heal after ~10 seconds wont save you from anything though. Thief still brings 750 cc from basi in a second or two.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

    I agree ele has useless "utility" that nobody ever touches because it's a major dps loss and covered by other classes. Unlike thief, who has actual group utility called "Basilisk Venom".

    Ele has access to all the utility during the fight even if it is a dps loss. If kitten hits the fan and you need to save yourself you still have option to do that, while Thief does not. Being dead is a bigger dps loss than switching to use some utility.

    Nonsense. If the situation is so bad that I need to attune Water, all I can do is delay the wipe by a few seconds. Very utility, so balance.

    Still better option to dying is to buy those few seconds and hope your healers can get themselves together during that time.

    Nope. The better option is to not waste time and /gg.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    Of course I didn't. Same way I don't wear Magi when taking a dps spot in the party.

    So you do agree on Ele having constant access to utility during the fight?

    I agree ele has useless "utility" that nobody ever touches because it's a major dps loss and covered by other classes. Unlike thief, who has actual group utility called "Basilisk Venom".

    Ele has access to all the utility during the fight even if it is a dps loss. If kitten hits the fan and you need to save yourself you still have option to do that, while Thief does not. Being dead is a bigger dps loss than switching to use some utility.

    Nonsense. If the situation is so bad that I need to attune Water, all I can do is delay the wipe by a few seconds. Very utility, so balance.

    Still better option to dying is to buy those few seconds and hope your healers can get themselves together during that time.

    modern Raid tactics have evolved to try and simplify to the trinity, and has no tolerance for diversification and recovery in fights so in this context you are wasting your time stacking healing. Its perfectly viable to setup a raids tactic that is slower but allows more hybrid play, but that requires a change of mindset that is difficult for most raiders.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Scar.1793Scar.1793 Member ✭✭✭
    They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.

    Both can be deleted from the game for all I care tbh

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    Ele has fire and water fields, frostbow and hammer which can be very beneficial a times. Thief has nothing at all, even necro has more utility, which is pretty kitten sad

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018
    They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    Ele has fire and water fields, frostbow and hammer which can be very beneficial a times. Thief has nothing at all, even necro has more utility, which is pretty kitten sad

    Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

    Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

  • Frozey.8513Frozey.8513 Member ✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

    Interesting comment!
    disagreeing slightly intensifies
    Yeah I do agree on 2nd weapon set on Thief can bring more to the table if you want to look at it that way. However I don't see that as same level of utility as that what Ele can bring to the table when both are running optimal dps equipment and builds. Main argument here is still that DE has purely damage and nearly nothing else to give to the group, while Ele has bigger selection of utility to bring to the table if the need should arise.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2018
    They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.

    Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

    It's only good for breakbar ofc.........What other use of venom? to poison your kitten?

    Rev is the only class that I agree with your argument. CC+ Dps buff. You are correct. if If I think right, you were talking about rev...if not

    Ele is faceroll and damage buff? CC? I mean what ele can do right now is a damage buff to power reaper maybe...…… god

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2018
    They should be as equal as possible in terms of damage potential.

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Frozey.8513 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

    Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

    I mean if we continue with that logic:
    saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

    going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

    Interesting comment!
    disagreeing slightly intensifies
    Yeah I do agree on 2nd weapon set on Thief can bring more to the table if you want to look at it that way. However I don't see that as same level of utility as that what Ele can bring to the table when both are running optimal dps equipment and builds. Main argument here is still that DE has purely damage and nearly nothing else to give to the group, while Ele has bigger selection of utility to bring to the table if the need should arise.

    I mean, the optimal DE build only use 1 set of weapon. It's either dagger/dagger or rifle; you don't even do those condi build things where you swap to the same set of weapons just to proc sigil of geomancy. The attunement swapping on ele is literally weapon swapping on other classes (except engi) that's why they were balanced to have only 1 weapon set allowed. It is just your personal opinion that you think being able to put down water fields with negligible healing on a dps build means more utility. I would personally say being able to equip basi venom to do a pretty good cc with minimal dps loss is better utility. If you bring in 2nd weapon set of thief, the various spammable ccs, blind/smoke fields, boon removal are also utility. Rifle also have a projectile destruction by default.

    Saying DE has only pure damage is just false.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    For all intents and purposes, Weaver should push out more damage. It's a melee spec on a mage with bigger rotations to work with.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

    Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

    Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

    Keep telling yourself that.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

    Keep telling yourself that.

    How do you do 750 CC on staff ele with 500 dps loss in a second or two?

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

    Keep telling yourself that.

    How do you do 750 CC on staff ele with 500 dps loss in a second or two?

    You don't. But good luck explaining that to the fanbois with the ridiculously OP build.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    "Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

    Ele/weaver is actually my second main for raids, first being support chrono. I have no issues getting into groups and most of the time im top dps, Only thing that can outdps me recently is a well played deadeye which is justified with reasons above.

    I think in general the ele community is entitled. Always want to be number 1 in everything and lose your kitten when you finally see another class put out more dps for once.

    Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

    I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @steki.1478 said:

    Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

    Simple, air lightning field, then go to earth, then hammer. It might not seem like much, but most of the time your squad gets it done before you can even combo it.

    I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

    I never said swapping to water or earth brings good utility, i just pointed out that all the combo fields ele has along with lightning hammer and frostbow can be some great utility. Matter of fact, only 4 classes have better utility, which you should know

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2018
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

    Simple, air lightning field, then go to earth, then hammer. It might not seem like much, but most of the time your squad gets it done before you can even combo it.

    I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

    I never said swapping to water or earth brings good utility, i just pointed out that all the combo fields ele has along with lightning hammer and frostbow can be some great utility. Matter of fact, only 4 classes have better utility, which you should know

    How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

    I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

    You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

    * forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

    So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    "Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

    Ele/weaver is actually my second main for raids, first being support chrono. I have no issues getting into groups and most of the time im top dps, Only thing that can outdps me recently is a well played deadeye which is justified with reasons above.

    I think in general the ele community is entitled. Always want to be number 1 in everything and lose your kitten when you finally see another class put out more dps for once.

    That's because it is utterly stupid. Playing an ele incurs a lot more risk and getting lower results simply means there's no good reason to pick one. I wouldn't have a problem if it were an actual complex build. But it isn't.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2018
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @steki.1478 said:

    How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

    I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

    You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

    * forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

    So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

    You tell me, thats exactly how i felt when the other dude said basilik venom was great utility.

    Please do so

    Engi has group utility???? Lol ik for sure ele has more. Guard has even less utility, unless you go firebrand but druid is much better healing and it offers damage buffs with might stacking. And reaper is just straight trash, lol....

    Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2018
    Deadeye should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

    I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

    You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

    * forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

    So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

    You tell me, thats exactly how i felt when the other dude said basilik venom was great utility.

    Please do so

    Engi has group utility???? Lol ik for sure ele has more. Guard has even less utility, unless you go firebrand but druid is much better healing and it offers damage buffs with might stacking. And reaper is just straight trash, lol....

    Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

    Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

    Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

    Weaver (staff):

    • minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)
    • aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)
    • single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)
    • minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

    Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

    Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

    The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i don't care as long as they're both equally viable

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

    Riiiight. Are you playing the same game? :lol:

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    For balance's sake, Sword should do more damage than riffle. As for staff, it already does less damage on small hitbox single targets, but it's only logical it does more damage on groups and larger hitbox.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Weaver should push out more damage.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

    Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

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