Zhaitan's weakness: lasers??

[James Orland.9786]

Okay but hear me out here.It's been asked before what Zhaitan's weakness actually is, and from what I've seen it's been usually brushed off as "oh you know the Mouths had been killed, it was super weakened, then it got shot down..."But what if there was something about the magic powering the lasers that was actually Zhaitan's weakness? Something in the spectrum of magic and all that. And sure, the doylist reason was probably "the devs hadn't come up with this whole 'weakness' idea when the base game was written," but with living world and some expansions where we have to deal with Kralkie and Bubbles, they do have time to make it so the watsonian explanation fits something like that.

[starlinvf.1358]

The Dragon of death's weakness was.... Death

But on the energy thing, this all happened long before the Leyline concept was in the game..... so its hard to say if there is any continuity there, or if Leyline and Draconic energy are retconned with HOT. But if you pay attention to Zojja's little technobabble contest with the cannon operator, it basically amounts to "anti-dragon bullets".

[Michram.6853]

His strength was that he had the huge amount of the minions.His weakness was that he lost that amount.

His greatest minions died- the eyes, the mouths, the priests and the priestess, the kings and the queens were freed from the Eyes, the Risen princes and princesses were slain.

His strength was slowly turning into his weakness, so even if we could use some water balloons agains him in the final battle he would die.

Valar morghulis- we all die.

No matter if the death controls the death, the death comes for everybody- sooner or later.

Did the death save Joko because he himself was controlling the death?

N.O.P.E

[ugrakarma.9416]

in zhaitan fight theres already a concept of a "energy that counter dragon", not a generic laser. The problem is part of this lore inst on fight dialogues, but on the dungeons, which I find problematic, such a lore scattered in content that is not played. I myself only had in Crucible of Eterny some 3x in a 3 years of gw...

The MEGA-LIT cannon is a large megalaser mounted on The Glory of Tyria. It was modeled after the Vigil Megalaser and designed by Zojja, using notes on dragon energy from the Kudu's experiments at the Crucible of Eternity. It is described as a mist-cooled tripartate thautmatium energy weapon with a lead tracer array set for draconic energy. Its design was made specifically to combat the Elder Dragon Zhaitan and was the trump card in the Pact's aerial battle over the skies of Arah.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/MEGA-LIT_cannon

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_energy

[OFFTOPIC]: speaking about the fight against Zhaitan, by curiosity i reviewed the dialogues, Rytlock is brilliant here:

What do you know about this place?Rytlock Brimstone: It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest.

[Castigator.3470]

There actually is some weight to this theory.In fact, Taimi's spectral magic idea is not as new as some people think: Professor Gorr may have been the one to originally postulate magical wavelengths, as stated in the Personal Story mission "What the Eye beholds".

Scholar Vivian said:If I understand Gorr's equipment, we're going to bombard the Eye with a specific wavelength of thaumic energy to trigger a projective response.

Gorr's experiment yielded information about Zhaitans telepathic link to his minions. But it also gave a hint towards the magical frequencies Zhaitan used. This could have been fashioned into the giant lightbeam cannon. Combine this with Kamma's research from Sparkfly fen and you have an anti dragon beam.

[James Orland.9786]

@"Castigator.3470" said:Combine this with Kamma's research from Sparkfly fen and you have an anti dragon beam.

Except it wasn't a generalised anti-dragon beam, was it? It seemed to be specifically an anti-Zhaitan beam; it didn't work so well against Mordremoth, and presumably wouldn't have, nor against Kralkatorrik.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:[OFFTOPIC]: speaking about the fight against Zhaitan, by curiosity i reviewed the dialogues, Rytlock is brilliant here:

What do you know about this place?Rytlock Brimstone: It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods.

They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest

.

Ooohhh yes this is actually really interesting! Maybe the wavelength that was counter to Zhaitan's death is sacred magic, of some sort.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Not convinced, but just throwing this out here- Zhaitan's second sphere, according to S2, was Shadows. We killed him with an anti-dragon laser- that is to say, magical energy specially treated and converted into light. Maybe that was the key?

[Tyson.5160]

I specifically asked this question during the last AFC. Here is the response.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38094/zhaitan-weakness#latest

[MithranArkanere.8957]

His weakness were his own undead minions.By destroying them, he got cut off from his sources of magic, and was extremely malnourished when we find him. After we eliminate the Sovereign Eye and purigy the Source of magic of Orr, we basically poison the ambient for him.So he was maimed, blind, hungry, poisoned and practically eating himself.

[Fjaeldmark.9043]

I'd say Zhaitan's weakness would have been his body (as counterpoint to Mordremoth and his mind weakness). While the other elder dragons were made of tough materials like rock, Zhaitan was made of meat, dead and rotting meat. He also seems to be much smaller than Kralkatorik and Primodius, but that might just be an in game thing and not representative of the lore.

[DBZVelena.5186]

His weakness? Plot holes of course! There is nothing stronger than that to kill off a dragon off death.XD

[Tyson.5160]

Let’s take a look at what Josso said about the dragons:

Josso Essher: The most important lesson an Exalted must learn is: though Elder Dragons are unimaginably powerful, they can be killed.Josso Essher: Each has a distinct flaw.Josso Essher: Mordremoth, for example, dominates thought. But its most powerful asset—its mind—is also its greatest liability.Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.

See a pattern here. The dragon’s unique strength is also its weakness. Mordremoth mind was his strongest asset and his weakness. Kralkatorrik can crystallize objects, which is also its weakness. Let’s look at Zhaitan. Zhaitan’s strength was his minions. After each battle, the fallen would becomes his soldiers. His weakness was his minions, ones that had special abilities of being his sight on the battlefield and his mouth when it comes to meals. If his eye is killed he is temporary blinded, when the mouth is killed he goes hungry. His strength is minions and also his weakness.

I would theorize that this would also work for the knowledge that Zhaitan gains from his minions too, however I don’t really have any evidence for it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

[...] it was cutting him off from his food supply (mouths of Zhaitan) and basically blinding him (eyes of Zhaitan.) Then in his weakened state: Cannons. I think a lot of people forget the campaign in Orr up to the final fight, but IIRC, he's already been "weakened" by the time you fly up to him and shoot him off a building.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496222/#Comment_496222

Basically, us killing the Eyes and Mouth(s) of Zhaitan. This had weakened him physically, and not just in starvation; capturing the temples and cleansing the Artesian Waters would have also weakened him a bit, but not as much.

There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on specialized minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Because the Eyes and Mouths are directly connected to Zhaitan in a manner other minions aren't (Zhaitan knew what all his minions knew, and we know from the asura PS that all risen absorbed ambient magic in a region, as is the case for all dragon minions, but the Eyes and Mouth were more "real time" and much more effective in doing these two roles) killing him left him weakened. Then we deprived him of multiple powerful energy sources (the temples and Artesian Waters), and finally we struck him with lasers based off of Gorr's "reverse corruption" magitech and Kudu's study of the Elder Dragon energies.

Killing the Eyes and Mouths alone wouldn't have killed Zhaitan alone, but made effectively gave a debuff on him that made him vulnerable to more mundane methods, and we used the most effective of all mundane methods.

It should be noted that the Pact canons and whatnot one-shot any normal dragon minion, such as can be seen in Camp Resolve or the first camps in Dragon's Stand, when mordrem get too close the canons fire and the mordrem die instantly. So those are really powerful canons (against dragons and their minions). Not enough on their own to kill an Elder Dragon, but they likely "bypass" the whole unique weakness thing by a good margin.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

[...] it was cutting him off from his food supply (mouths of Zhaitan) and basically blinding him (eyes of Zhaitan.) Then in his weakened state: Cannons. I think a lot of people forget the campaign in Orr up to the final fight, but IIRC, he's already been "weakened" by the time you fly up to him and shoot him off a building.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496222/#Comment_496222

Basically, us killing the Eyes and Mouth(s) of Zhaitan. This had weakened him physically, and not just in starvation; capturing the temples and cleansing the Artesian Waters would have also weakened him a bit, but not as much.

There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Because the Eyes and Mouths are directly connected to Zhaitan in a manner other minions aren't (Zhaitan knew what all his minions knew, and we know from the asura PS that all risen absorbed ambient magic in a region, as is the case for all dragon minions, but the Eyes and Mouth were more "real time" and much more effective in doing these two roles) killing him left him weakened. Then we deprived him of multiple powerful energy sources (the temples and Artesian Waters), and finally we struck him with lasers based off of Gorr's "reverse corruption" magitech and Kudu's study of the Elder Dragon energies.

Killing the Eyes and Mouths alone wouldn't have killed Zhaitan alone, but made effectively gave a debuff on him that made him vulnerable to more mundane methods, and we used the most effective of all mundane methods.

It should be noted that the Pact canons and whatnot one-shot any normal dragon minion, such as can be seen in Camp Resolve or the first camps in Dragon's Stand, when mordrem get too close the canons fire and the mordrem die instantly. So those are really powerful canons (against dragons and their minions). Not enough on their own to kill an Elder Dragon, but they likely "bypass" the whole unique weakness thing by a good margin.

I think Josso’s pattern still fits here, though it probably more generalized. Strength of the dragon is also its weakness. I’m not sure how Jormag and Primordus fit, unless it’s a simple fire/ ice scenario.

[crepuscular.9047]

Given the fact that GW franchise's creators were fans of Magic The Gathering, it will not be surprised for them pick some element of the Black from MTG.

I would like to think the minions of Zhaitan requires constant 'upkeeps' to keep them in control and connected to Zhaitan itself, but because this upkeep requires constant draining of magic, hence require magic infused artefacts collected by mouths of Zhaitan.

Because the mouth of Zhaitan was destroyed during the story, thus Zhaitan was forced into tapping into his own 'life force' reserves for the upkeeps; of course Zhaitan can 'release' some of the minions, but they will run rampant and attack anything in sight

By the time we got to him, his juice is pretty much running dry

[James Orland.9786]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on specialized minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Mordremoth had a Mouth, too, though; the Mouth of Mordremoth is what we kill in the Dragon's Stand metaevent.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

[...] it was cutting him off from his food supply (mouths of Zhaitan) and basically blinding him (eyes of Zhaitan.) Then in his weakened state: Cannons. I think a lot of people forget the campaign in Orr up to the final fight, but IIRC, he's already been "weakened" by the time you fly up to him and shoot him off a building.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496222/#Comment_496222

Basically, us killing the Eyes and Mouth(s) of Zhaitan. This had weakened him physically, and not just in starvation; capturing the temples and cleansing the Artesian Waters would have also weakened him a bit, but not as much.

There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Because the Eyes and Mouths are directly connected to Zhaitan in a manner other minions aren't (Zhaitan knew what all his minions knew, and we know from the asura PS that all risen absorbed ambient magic in a region, as is the case for all dragon minions, but the Eyes and Mouth were more "real time" and much more effective in doing these two roles) killing him left him weakened. Then we deprived him of multiple powerful energy sources (the temples and Artesian Waters), and finally we struck him with lasers based off of Gorr's "reverse corruption" magitech and Kudu's study of the Elder Dragon energies.

Killing the Eyes and Mouths alone wouldn't have killed Zhaitan alone, but made effectively gave a debuff on him that made him vulnerable to more mundane methods, and we used the most effective of all mundane methods.

It should be noted that the Pact canons and whatnot one-shot any normal dragon minion, such as can be seen in Camp Resolve or the first camps in Dragon's Stand, when mordrem get too close the canons fire and the mordrem die instantly. So those are really powerful canons (against dragons and their minions). Not enough on their own to kill an Elder Dragon, but they likely "bypass" the whole unique weakness thing by a good margin.

I think Josso’s pattern still fits here, though it probably more generalized. Strength of the dragon is also its weakness. I’m not sure how Jormag and Primordus fit, unless it’s a simple fire/ ice scenario.

Yeah I was gonna say, it doesn't seem like it fits them.

Something that could make sense, though, is if they come in pairs: Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik's weaknesses are themselves; Primordus and Jormag's weaknesses are each other; what does that leave us with, for Zhaitan and Bubbles?

[Tyson.5160]

@James Orland.9786 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Mordremoth had a Mouth, too, though; the Mouth of Mordremoth is what we kill in the Dragon's Stand metaevent.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

[...] it was cutting him off from his food supply (mouths of Zhaitan) and basically blinding him (eyes of Zhaitan.) Then in his weakened state: Cannons. I think a lot of people forget the campaign in Orr up to the final fight, but IIRC, he's already been "weakened" by the time you fly up to him and shoot him off a building.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496222/#Comment_496222

Basically, us killing the Eyes and Mouth(s) of Zhaitan. This had weakened him physically, and not just in starvation; capturing the temples and cleansing the Artesian Waters would have also weakened him a bit, but not as much.

There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Because the Eyes and Mouths are directly connected to Zhaitan in a manner other minions aren't (Zhaitan knew what all his minions knew, and we know from the asura PS that all risen absorbed ambient magic in a region, as is the case for all dragon minions, but the Eyes and Mouth were more "real time" and much more effective in doing these two roles) killing him left him weakened. Then we deprived him of multiple powerful energy sources (the temples and Artesian Waters), and finally we struck him with lasers based off of Gorr's "reverse corruption" magitech and Kudu's study of the Elder Dragon energies.

Killing the Eyes and Mouths alone wouldn't have killed Zhaitan alone, but made effectively gave a debuff on him that made him vulnerable to more mundane methods, and we used the most effective of all mundane methods.

It should be noted that the Pact canons and whatnot one-shot any normal dragon minion, such as can be seen in Camp Resolve or the first camps in Dragon's Stand, when mordrem get too close the canons fire and the mordrem die instantly. So those are really powerful canons (against dragons and their minions). Not enough on their own to kill an Elder Dragon, but they likely "bypass" the whole unique weakness thing by a good margin.

I think Josso’s pattern still fits here, though it probably more generalized. Strength of the dragon is also its weakness. I’m not sure how Jormag and Primordus fit, unless it’s a simple fire/ ice scenario.

Yeah I was gonna say, it doesn't seem like it fits them.

Something that could make sense, though, is if they come in pairs: Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik's weaknesses are themselves; Primordus and Jormag's weaknesses are each other; what does that leave us with, for Zhaitan and Bubbles?

Some sort of external weakness possibly attached to minions.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@James Orland.9786 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Mordremoth had a Mouth, too, though; the Mouth of Mordremoth is what we kill in the Dragon's Stand metaevent.

The Mouth of Mordremoth wasn't a minion, but Mordremoth itself. It's still not very clear why Anet called it "Mouth of" when it's Mordremoth itself, but it's been confirmed multiple times over that was Mordremoth's primary body.

[norbes.3620]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@James Orland.9786 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There's no need to speculate this, even after this got brought up and linked to by Tyson. His weakness was reliance on

specialized

minions (he is the only Elder Dragon to have minions as specialized as the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan). Not minions in general, but his specialized ones - the minions that are directly (via magic) connected to him in a way the other minions are not.

Mordremoth had a Mouth, too, though; the Mouth of Mordremoth is what we kill in the Dragon's Stand metaevent.

The Mouth of Mordremoth wasn't a minion, but Mordremoth itself. It's still not very clear why Anet called it "Mouth of" when it's Mordremoth itself, but it's been confirmed multiple times over that was Mordremoth's primary body.

I think that while the mouth was his Primary Body mordremoth was still able to embody something else if he wanted too through his mind Connection. so he Need a "main base" for himself but the "Location" can be different. so the mouth was called that cuz mordremoth could have moved into another Body while the that Body would still be functional.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

Zhaitan basically was his Undead just as Kralkatorrik is a Sandstorm, Jormag is a Blizzard, Primordius is a Volcano and Mordremoth was a Jungle Hivemind. Each Elder Dragon is their Element.

[Trise.2865]

It's not just lasers. The Pact cannons use chemical agents developed by the Priory, specifically Scholar Vivian's research team, in a collaboration with the Charr. These reagents are proven to react violently and explosively to dragon corruption; specifically Zhaitan's corruption.

[Huxley.7340]

Wasn't the Blue Orb studied to not only create that blue neon energy around Pact base fencing but also for use in weapons against Zhaitan? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blue_Orb

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Huxley.7340" said:Wasn't the Blue Orb studied to not only create that blue neon energy around Pact base fencing but also for use in weapons against Zhaitan? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blue_Orb

The weapons used against Zhaitan were based off of Professor Gorr's research on dragon minions. The first weaponized development of such was the Vaccumagic Polarizer featured in Magic Sucks and The Priory Assailed. Said research was expanded by Scholar Vivian, who became Gorr's apprentice within the Pact, and had previously researched risen weaknesses during the charr personal story step Dangerous Research. The MEGA-Lit laser itself was an improvement of the megalaser used against Tequatl, enhanced by the aforementioned works as well as research notes Zojja acquired at the end of Crucible of Eternity story mode.

The fences were designed, in part at least, by Arcanist Slizz. It's unclear whether he utilized the blue orb or not, as all we know about the Pact's use of the orb is that it keeps Fort Trintiy - at the very least - safe from risen. It isn't unlikely that it powers all the fences, as the blue orb is hooked directly into the Alseta Generator that powers said fences.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@starlinvf.1358 said:The Dragon of death's weakness was.... Death

This makes sense actually.

Mordy, the Dragon of Mind - Killed from within his mindKralk, the Dragon of...shiny crystals - Killed by a shiny crystal dragon bratZhaitan, the Dragon of Death - Killed by getting shot to...death.

[mindcircus.1506]

Zhaitan's weakness is his hunger for magic. In the personal story we systematically starve him of that via the last few parts of the campaign.This leaves us with little more to perform the death blow than hit him with a laser, We had actually been exploiting his weakness unknowingly all along.

Not the best answer, but it is the official one.

Now this thread may die.