I am displeased about the removal of a thread
ButcherofMalakir.4067
Member ✭✭✭✭
Hello guys. I am not sure if I am breaking any rules now but I feel that even if I am it needs to be done. Quite recently one user on this formu posted quite long and detailed thread about raid toxicity and what to do to get to raids. Then this thread dissapeared. After a while I relised that that person is on the same discord with me and told us that it was shut down by a moderator. Today he showed us the reasoning that was send to him by the moderator why he did get a warning and his thread was shut down and I was very ofended by it. And that is why I decided to write this post.
In summary author said that raid is not toxic if you pull your weight and to do so you should have meta build, learn fights before you join and whisper the commander if you dont have enough Li.
The moderator said that this thread was reported by multiple members because author expected players too folow nonexistant rules and if they dont they will be subjected to toxic behavior and that this means that raiders dont welcome indipendent thinkers.
Lets break it down:
Players that want to clear raids (we are not talking about training raids) want to do it as soon as possible. If they wanted to do it with 9 players they wouldnt look for the 10th one. There are 10 players in squad and not just you. If you want to be carried in raids then you can PAY someone who is selling raids. If you join a squad and expect them to carry you then you are basicaly making them do the same thing but for free.
If i have a squad full with players that want to play meta I DONT HAVE TO ACCEPT player that doesnt. Its the same as if there is a squad full of non meta builds and I join with meta build. The have same right to kick me.
Also the author said a way to get around those "rules". He said that if he is asking for something and you dont have it you can always ask the commander if he/she allows it.
And the last part offended me the most. "Raids do not welcome indipended thinkers". That mean I am not indipendent thinker since am raiding and I never met any toxicity. Raids welcome indipendent thinkers. You will get further if you can adapt to your team composition and bosses. Raids do not welcome thinkers similar to those that belive that earth is flat. The fact that earth isnt flat was proven by many people yet someone can still argue that it is not true. I dont want to deal with a "thinker" that have more toughness with dps firebrand then minstrel chrono tank (that happend to me). Am I toxic if I, as a commander, kick this player (after asking him if he forgot to change this gear)?
Truth be told if you dont follow those rules stated by the author, it is much more likely that players will be toxic to you. You might feel that raiders are toxic but the way I see it our "toxicity" is there only because you started it. We (at least me) think that you are toxic if you expect us to carry you.
And I welcome new raiders to raids. I am teaching newcomers how to raid quite frequently. That doesnt meant that if I want fast clear with experianced players I will take someone who is not experianced just because he want to raid.
I am sorry if you think i am toxic now. I had to rewrite this post many times to turn down my rage. But I will not stand by when I am beeing insulted by others without fighting back.
Comments
Agree. That post was very helpful for new raiders actually.
So that’s why I can’t find the thread anymore.
The moderators seem to be robots taking everything literally, unable to realize intent and context...
Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.
Yep, I found the moderation on this forum to be very, very strict and often times seemingly childish as well. Sad that this thread got purged as well.
Oh did I hurt your precious feelings? My deepest apologies.
I assume moderation is automated at this point. If a post or thread receaives enough reports it's taken down and you get a generic message based on the most common reason ppl offered. (Might not be the case, what do I know, it just feels a lot like it)
If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes
Moderation discussion is not allowed here. Goodbye thread.
Was gonna report but I'm on mobile.
I did it for you.
When I presented this to the author if he is ok with me writing this he had same reply. It will get baned too. If nothing more it informed those that dont know why they cannot find it anymore and also helped me went my anger
If you want to have healthier discussion about the game, use reddit. This place is good only for patchnotes.
I member that topic, was rather helpful one instead of a bashing/toxic towards raiders.
Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
Big Babou, Ranger for life.
Hello so angry, i'm dad
I Have No friends, so I Must pug
Why not just join a group of friends doing raids or a guild that your in? People whom create groups/squads ect (regardless of what its for>> fractals, dungeons or raids) will always advertise whether they are looking for a specific group of (experienced) players to complete the zone as quickly as possible or no previous experience needed, just stick to the ones that allow you to play the way you want to play & don't bother with the other ones.
I dont want to raid asap. I want to enjoy it. I want it to be a challenge and a new situation everytime. I want to test MY BUILD on certain Boss's.
I do play MMORPG's because i want to get into my character, build something like a story. For example building a tanky one, who can still deal a lot of damage through conditions. It would do literally not more then 10-15k dps on golem even with full buffs. I still want to play THAT build.
Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!
That doesn't exist, balance in gw2 is kitten. You either go full dmg, or do f all dmg.
I dont have a problem with that. All I am saying is that if you decided to play certain build because you want to regardless of the math behind it you might be excluded from squad because you are holding them back. I am not saying that you cannot play that build, just that if you want to play it you need to find another players that will accept you. Just because you dont eat meat doesnt meen that you can force your belives onto others.
Raiders arent forcing you to play specific build. They will simply play with someone that does and that is a diference.
Your rage and anger is your problem. Get help to fix it. I totally agree with the moderator's reasoning. I refuse to follow any such unwritten community made up rules. Play the game for fun, abide to the defined rules.
wth sure its called wvw builds
Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!
@ButcherofMalakir.4067 , you're completely right. The thread was good, sound advice and it was far from toxic.
But as you can see; there's already 5+ users happy and somehow proud to report you. So... I guess this will be bye for a week or two.
I understand your frustration, but getting infracted won't accomplish anything but get you more frustrated.
You didn't read the thread
Smugly chuckling forever.
My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.
So you are saying that if I have lfg title: "1000Li 50 duuhm kp druid", player join and one of these things happen:
1) player doesnt have Li
2) player doesnt have kp
3) player doesnt have druid
I have no right to kick them and have to do full clear with them?
Yes,. be friendly and help out fellow players.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
If we played like that, pugs would never kill dhuum cm / dhuum. The chance of getting more than 8-9 capable players, which is required for dhuum with pugs, is insanely small. Even this one pug can, without any issues, wipe the group several times.
If we had to raid like this, I honestly would NOT do my raid clears at all. I'm very happy to host training raids on MY terms and MY free time. I'm not going to raid at all if EVERY run is a training run, where anyone who joins can hold everyone else hostage.
How does the 10th person get to join, do and play whatever they like - but everyone else has to put up with it? What if this ruins the enjoyment of the other 9 players?
Thats the problem. The way you are saying means that it is not up to me. I Am forced to help them. They want to raid because that is fun. I get that. But what about my fun. Why do I have to spend my time doing something i dont want to when I am not rewared for it in any way? (not to mention 9 other players). As I said I am teaching raids IF I WANT TO.
Cms need to be removed, they only bring toxic elitism to this lovely game, that only scares away new players.
I don't get all this madness about raids. I mean if you play what you want look for some ppl or a guild with the same mindset. If you want and enjoy the meta way of playing join some ppl or guild wich goes this way. If there is no LFG group wich provides/advertise the way you want to play, set up your own LFG. And just don't join groups wich advertise a different way to play than you want.
No they don't.
You know what brings toxic elitism to the game? Players who insist that EVERYONE MUST play casual.
That's why, the more the game becomes hypercasual, the more elitism we'll get in raids, fractals, wvw, pvp, ...
It's bait
Smugly chuckling forever.
My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.
But there is no fishing in this game.
This one is; but howmany players do you think actually think it's raids / raiders / arcdps / meta / ... who are the reason for toxicity and elitism? Just like it's matchmaking's fault players aren't rank 1 yet.
Yesterday, me and my friend wanted to do fractal rec. I was boon chrono and she was aura.
I advertised for 3 dps.
3 dps people joined at the same time. We started fractal. After very quickly clearing initial group of mob, 1 person said, "use frost aura noob" and 2 dps left at the same time.
Mind you, they still had over 90% hp.
What do u call that?
That's the lowest of the low, I have ever seen on this game.
It's a lot of them. People who aren't accepting any type of help, who never reflect on themselves but who push their issues onto others expecting them to come up with a solution or just accepting it in their stead. Also the type of person to attack anybody trying to get more people to think about their build, to perhaps not run a very poorly performing setup where every bit of performance counts.
I really think the elitism is only such a prevalent "issue" because of the people who perceive any slight criticism on their ability as such, only spiralling downward from there. Suddenly they have an anecdote about "how bad the raid community is" and posting it garners some attention from people who have made a similar experience and in a very short time you have a bunch of people who have found an excuse for themselves so they don't have to change anything anymore but complain that everything is oh so unfair.
Smugly chuckling forever.
My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.
That's one bad experience with two people who are stupid. Hardly evidence for a problem with the community at large
Those players were definitely idiots to complain about such a minor thing though.
Smugly chuckling forever.
My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.
And ppl wonder why wvw is a mene at this point.
I have met this behavior in fractals before. Bad person can be found in every group. Yet I have never seen same thing in raids.
WvW is a meme because you can't be selective; and the population that cares about WvW is tiny compared to the population that cares about rewards / casual players.
Imagine you have to raid with everyone on your server. You have to pvp not based on rating but on PURE rng and combine 1.9k rated players with the newest ones in the game.
No point for hardcore players to care; not much to do for casual players without more hardcore ones showing them da wae.
Yeah, toxic elite and jerks are on both side. I just wish lfg was little better so we could pug n play with similar mindset people. May be 1 day
Anyone can make ANY groups. If there are no groups that are purely casual oriented... that must have a reason? Perhaps they don't perform well. Perhaps they struggle to clear. Perhaps casuals just dislike making their own groups, too much responsibility and effort. Who knows? It doesn't matter. It shows they still benefit greatly from veterans, and further alienating them is a BAD thing.
Except we keep doing it.
I would like to address the initial comments and concerns about moderation, and then I will close the thread. It's veered wildly off topic and needs a restart if this sort of conversation is a valuable forum discussion to have at all. I leave that to you folks to decide, on the topic of raid parties.
However, on the topic of moderation, I'll share facts:
The thread in question, as explained to the person who created it, was designed to set down immutable "rules" about Raids. These rules were entirely subjective, and do not exist as actual rules within the Raid format. If someone calls them suggestions, or tips, or guidance, that's fine. It's calling them "rules" that is the issue, and that's why the thread was removed with the invitation for the OP to repost if they slightly modified their presentation. (A few changed words would, obviously, have accomplished that.)
The input from the post may be valuable; it may form good guidance for new raiders. Such suggestions are more than welcome here. But as the thread was phrased, it set a bar for raid involvement, and directed everyone to follow a proscribed path to "avoid toxicity" and to, apparently, become someone the community would find acceptable. That's neither welcoming or true, and having that sort of opinion-as-fact thread -- which clearly is controversial, judging from today's comments -- is not a good contribution: to the forums, to the game, to the game mode. With modest rephrasing, with removing the overarching "threat" that seemed to say "Do this or you will be mistreated," the thread is, again, just fine.
That the OP chose to misstate our messaging is unjust and unfair. That others chose to use this an example of allegedly poor moderation is equally inappropriate. This was thoughtful, well-meaning moderation that welcomed the input but asked that it be presented in a more acceptable, less biased, less negative form.
It's that simple.
Gaile Gray
Communications Manager: ArenaNet
Fansite & Guild Relations; In-Game Events; Community Showcase Live
I am sorry that you were enraged by the removal of a thread. Your questions are welcome, if you will write [email protected] Posting a thread using words like "rage," and "insulted," and "fighting back" isn't reasonable or productive.
Then it can be slightly amended to be less negative and more clearly "one person's opinion" and it will stand.
Clearly, if you will kindly read up, that is not true. This thread was given careful, thoughtful, human review and was removed only to allow the author to slightly amend their biased presentation to avoid imparting inaccurate impressions to the newer raiders for whom it was intended.
I'm happy to answer any questions or concerns, as I've stated many, many times, through e-mail directed to [email protected] Calling well-meaning and highly-trained professionals "childish" is rude and offensive, and I'd ask that you use better judgment in the future.
Gaile Gray
Communications Manager: ArenaNet
Fansite & Guild Relations; In-Game Events; Community Showcase Live