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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There
are
players seeking that, too.

Give it time, it'll sink in ;)

I agree W5 was nice. I think the fractals are high level content but their difficulty across the board, even the newer ones, is lower than doing fractals when they were released in the vanilla game. Don't forget people ALWAYS struggle with new content before they figure it out.

I'm not saying anet doesn't care at all. I'm sure they do. I just dont' think it'll be enough to keep most veterans entertained. In fact, sorting my guilds on "time since last login" tells me it isn't.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

So your argument does NOTHING but alienate and indirectly flame everyone non-casual in this game. "This game is for casuals and everyone else is a negligible minority" has been repeated for years. And the result? Toxicity and a drastic decrease in playerbase and diversity.

Keep up shouting the game is for casual players. Keep implying others are irrelevant, it'll help you I swear. It'll totally make gw2 the greatest game ever :astonished:

I don't expect raids to be a focus. I know that the non-casual aspect of GW2 is dying in all gamemodes (well, truth is many aspects are honestly full dead) and many of the issues the game faces with these contents are because of that. Most of the issues in WvW, PvP, raids and fractals nowadays are just issues that arrised because of the veteran population leaving. This thread is proof of it.

I don't expect a "raid focus". I do wish that I wouldn't get random casuals attacking everything that isn't their prefered content telling us we shouldn't get it, because the game is for them. :)

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The problem is not the lack of challenging content itself, it's the release pace which is too long for players. But Anet has finite sources; smaller ones than other companies. It's just not possible for them to hand out stuff to satisfy all the little parts at once. When you realized that as a player - casual or hardcore - and can accept that there is another world out there, maybe other (non-MMO) games you are way more relaxed.

@Etheri.5406 said:I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

Well, it's rather obvious that you just haven't played enough raids till now and are just not burned out there compared to fracs. I have over 1k LIs and almost all of the wings are just boring stuff like repeating T4 fracs. Be honest with yourself, there's no challenge at beating VG, Gorse or KC than doing TO, SO or others.When pugging raids it's the same with T4s. Either you pick high LI/KP raid groups (equalized to t4 meta pugs) or you'll struggle a lot as well with trash chronos, trash druid/healers and abysmal dmg numbers.And to be fair: Raids got easier as well...

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@Vinceman.4572 said:The problem is not the lack of challenging content itself, it's the release pace which is too long for players. But Anet has finite sources; smaller ones than other companies. It's just not possible for them to hand out stuff to satisfy all the little parts at once. When you realized that as a player - casual or hardcore - and can accept that there is another world out there, maybe other (non-MMO) games you are way more relaxed.

If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

@"Etheri.5406" said:I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

Well, it's rather obvious that you just haven't played enough raids till now and are just not burned out there compared to fracs. I have over 1k LIs and almost all of the wings are just boring stuff like repeating T4 fracs. Be honest with yourself, there's no challenge at beating VG, Gorse or KC than doing TO, SO or others.When pugging raids it's the same with T4s. Either you pick high LI/KP raid groups (equalized to t4 meta pugs) or you'll struggle a lot as well with trash chronos, trash druid/healers and abysmal dmg numbers.And to be fair: Raids got easier as well...

Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed. Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

I agree raids are too easy and got far easier with insane powercreep and ignoring every mechanic in the game, etc. But I can't solo them. Well, except river. And honestly, solo'ing river was good entertainment ;). Meanwhile T4 fractals are ... solo carrying 4 players if you join pugs. Decent but mostly grindy if you join CMs + T4s. So really, the only thing that exists is CMs.

I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

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@"Etheri.5406" said:If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game. I don't belong to that group, of course I want to play challenging content but I also play the things at festivals, doing achievements and crafting stuff like legendaries etc. And since I'm not online for about 12+ hours a day (like some of the above mentioned player) I don't burn out that fast on distinct content.

Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed.

Has nothing to do with impressing someone. It just means that some of us (probably you as well) have killed most of the bosses more than hundred times now and that's what makes them boring after playing that often.

Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

See, and that's more a subjective thing and not objective since I find VG so freaking boring no matter what tactic I have played or seen so far. He was cool when he was introduced but not any longer years after.Also, pugging raids is aids for me in non-high-kp groups while fractals "can" be fun (they must not). Just an attitude thing.

I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

Again subjective, for me raiding is mostly for rewards and a lot other people as well. They do their daily clear (most often with fun) and then don't touch them again till next week.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

The game is casual. You can see it in every aspect of design and especially in how vanilla story, dungeons, balance and monetization was/is.

@Etheri.5406 said:

So your argument does NOTHING but alienate and indirectly flame everyone non-casual in this game. "This game is for casuals and everyone else is a negligible minority" has been repeated for years. And the result? Toxicity and a drastic decrease in playerbase and diversity.

Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

Toxicity has always been present in MMO group content. I challenge you to prove that this is higher (laughable) in GW2 than in other MMOs. The wide conception is that GW2 is one of the friendliest MMO games community wise.

@Etheri.5406 said:

Keep up shouting the game is for casual players. Keep implying others are irrelevant, it'll help you I swear. It'll totally make gw2 the greatest game ever :astonished:

I don't expect raids to be a focus. I know that the non-casual aspect of GW2 is dying in all game modes (well, truth is many aspects are honestly full dead) and many of the issues the game faces with these contents are because of that. Most of the issues in WvW, PvP, raids and fractals nowadays are just issues that arrised because of the veteran population leaving. This thread is proof of it.

I don't expect a "raid focus". I do wish that I wouldn't get random casuals attacking everything that isn't their preferred content telling us we shouldn't get it, because the game is for them. :)

You know a lot of things while staying blind to metrics and even openly available data. Here is a side fun fact for you: Arenanet has a ton of more metrics and base their design and development decisions around those. It is highly unlikely they approach content development at random.

The fact that raids are down population wise has a multitude of reasons:

  • it's summer (there a big one right off the bat)
  • the last expansion is 1 year old, people return for story or new raids momentarily at best
  • a huge drive for raids has been spread out over all 3 game modes (legendary armor)
  • the amount of Legendary Insights available has gone from 3 per week to 17 per week currently, drastically reducing time until first armor

Even having a new raid wing ever 3 months would not remedie some of those factors. Here is another one: WoWs expansion is hitting in 2 weeks. Expect the playerbase to shrink even more then, and that too will have nothing to do with casual or hardcore gamers.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game.

Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed.

Has nothing to do with impressing someone. It just means that some of us (probably you as well) have killed most of the bosses more than hundred times now and that's what makes them boring after playing that often.

Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

See, and that's more a subjective thing and not objective since I find VG so freaking boring no matter what tactic I have played or seen so far. He was cool when he was introduced but not any longer years after.Also, pugging raids is aids for me in non-high-kp groups while fractals "can" be fun (they must not). Just an attitude thing.

I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

Again subjective, for me raiding is mostly for rewards and a lot other people as well. They do their daily clear (most often with fun) and then don't touch them again till next week.

@"Etheri.5406" said:If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game. I don't belong to that group, of course I want to play challenging content but I also play the things at festivals, doing achievements and crafting stuff like legendaries etc. And since I'm not online for about 12+ hours a day (like some of the above mentioned player) I don't burn out that fast on distinct content.

My niche is "ANY COMBAT" that is challenging. I've gotten 0 challenging content other than W5. WvW has gotten nothing. PvP has gotten nothing. In fact they get drastically worse as veterans and guilds quit in both modes. PvE is as you stated, new fractals aren't challenging. That leaves W5...

I'm not saying "there isn't enough pure raid content". I'm literally saying there is almost NOTHING except for pure casual content in the last year +.I get it, if you grind 12 hours a day obviously you'll be repeating stuff. I'm not grinding 12 hours a day, and i haven't seen much "new" stuff. Have you? I've seen W5. Nothing WvW. Nothing PvP. Nothing difficult anywhere else.

It's not like i've done W5 three times daily for the last months. There just really hasn't been any challenging content in a really long time. And there won't be more.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

PvP was much, much bigger than it is now. But yes, it has pretty clear issues with balance and no matchmaking back then. Still, PvP's issues are only getting worse as the game gets more casual.

Yes, WvW needs more love. WvW was a healthy mix of hardcore and casual. And who quit? Everyone half hardcore. All the organised groups. Half the pugmanders that lead those mass zergs. The same WvW for 6 years is perfectly fine if it's not designed for casuals and completely ignored, but it was. And you know what PvE players said? Screw WvW, it's not important there's more pve players anyways. And here we are.

You see WvW did not need "content" in terms of new fluffy stuff, maps, gliding, mounts, all that casual stuff. It did need balance, support, improved coverage / ppt fix. So when we get casual oriented stuff like ... a wonderful looking desert bl that they demand, that doesn't function, that ruins PPT balance and is impossible to fight for objectives at an even scale then yeah, i'd say it's catered and demanded by casuals.

If wvw gets gliding and reward updates, which are then further updated to promote afk-ing, low level gameplay and not winning, active or good gameplay then i'd say yeah catered to casuals rather than the veterans issues which -still- aren't fixed. It's almost as if EU was telling anet coverage-based PPT couldn't work 5 years ago. Alliances coming soon and they still won't consider fixing it ;)

I'm not comparing toxicity in GW2 to other games. I'm comparing toxicity in non-openworld PVE. The elitism in WvW between casuals and vets has definitely increased drastically. Similar for raids and fractals in my book. Most definitely for PvP.

Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.

  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There
are
players seeking that, too.

Well If fractals is hard for you you can go lower tier. Hardcore players have no such option. And it wouldnt be that hard to implement challange mode for deepstone. Like when you fall you die and something like tequatl waves. They decided to go with no CM and with no dificulty.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

No, everything that is played by 5-10% of the player base is niche. I disagree on the game having shifted and you haven't shown as much so far besides your own subjective opinion.

@Etheri.5406 said:

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

The ascpects of the game which had the most players experience problems. Not sure, what is your point?

@Etheri.5406 said:And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

Nah, you are absolutely right, without any doubt. Even though I don't make use it very often, the community is by far the friendliest. And that can be repeatedly seen on reddit every day.

@Etheri.5406 said:Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

Definitely wrong. We haven't had anything related to fractal cms before HoT in PvE or anything you can compare to raids.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

Except Harpies. Harpies are forever stronk.

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

Not sure if serious.
  • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
  • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
  • introduction of raids with HoT
  • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

@Etheri.5406 said:You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

@Malediktus.9250 said:

No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

I remember the champions too they usually happened during the last story instance for that particular story grouping if i remember correctly, also yes you couldnt just auto attack, but having that player knowledge wouldve made things infinitely easier.

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@Dante.1763 said:

He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

Ah, i dont really recall that from the first beta, but i also think for the first beta i just ran around SW on rev.

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