So about new races... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So about new races...

Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

So whenever the topic of new races comes up, there's always one argument that always irks me.

It's that, "so and so can't be playable because of [insert lore reason here]". Like, for instance, the Kodan and Quaggan can't be playable because they're pacifists.

Here's the thing though, a race's culture does not define a character's personality. I always roll my eyes in fantasy stories when you have dwarves that are always like "I'm a dwarf so I have a beard and love drinking alcohol and I work in the mines and am super manly all the time because that's what dwarves do." or that all Orcs are big and strong, all Elves are extremely well mannered and swift etc etc. Basically, why do fantasy races always have to be walking stereotypes of their own nation's culture?

Especially in Gw2, has done well to establish that a character's race doesn't define their personality with characters like Tybalt. Heck, going back to Quaggan and Kodan, there are Quaggan and Kodan who choose to fight seen everywhere. There's an entire Quaggan village in Hirathi Hinterlands that is almost empty because all the young Quaggan left to fight in the war against the centaurs. We have Quaggan fighting alongside us in the Pact, the Quaggan path in the personal story deals with helping them stand up and defend their village instead of running away. There's a decent amount of them who are not pacifists.

Heck, by this logic, the Asura shouldn't even be playable because a scholarly race like them wouldn't lower themselves to barbaric acts of violence. But, here we are, running around in the field as an Asura, fighting monsters and getting our hands dirty. Being an Asura warrior is the least Asura thing you can be. (Bonus points if you went Vigil) but we can do it! So if Lore was ever a reason to have a race not be playable, we wouldn't have Asura,

There are other examples to pull from also but I think I got the point across that this argument is always BS when it comes to new races being added to the game. Any race is game and lore is never a valid reason a certain race cannot be playable. Well, you know, unless they're basically extinct like the Dwarves.

<13

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Never seen the lore argument of xyz being pacifists etc before I have to say

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:
    Here's the thing though, a race's culture does not define a character's personality. I always roll my eyes in fantasy stories when you have dwarves that are always like "I'm a dwarf so I have a beard and love drinking alcohol and I work in the mines and am super manly all the time because that's what dwarves do." or that all Orcs are big and strong, all Elves are extremely well mannered and swift etc etc.

    You should read some Salvatore novels. Pikel Bouldershoulder will be the most refreshingly different dwarf you can find.

    Orcs are big and strong because they are big and strong, just like humans have 5 fingers, so that comparison doesn't really work. Sure there could be midget Orcs(not sure if that's offensive?) but I think the general orcish custom would be to banish such elements.

    Basically, why do fantasy races always have to be walking stereotypes of their own nation's culture?

    Why are 98% of Somalian girls circumcised to this day? Because customs and culture are strongly rooted. Even more so without the influence of media and the internet.

    Returning to fantasy stereotypes, how do you know what the psyche of an elf is? Are their reasons and thoughts even comprehensible to humans? Can an elf have the desire to be different from his kin? Is their culture inherently tied to their physical being?

    Humans in a multicultural environment, members of sub-groups tend to emphasize their heritage to distinguish themselves from others and to also seek kinship from fellow members of said sub-group. That also brings out stereotypical behaviour. Humans devolve to the most common denomination to find kinship, or in modern terms, friends.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    I do I read Forgotten Realms for years. It spawned some of my most beloved, and probably my most hated, writing tropes all at once. These days I look at my old Do'Urden books rightways, sideways and upside down trying to decide if they were the best writing i'd ever seen, or the absolute worst.

    Ironically, I think I liked R.A Salavatore other book, the Crimson Shadow, more then all of them now that i'm older.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    I do I read Forgotten Realms for years. It spawned some of my most beloved, and probably my most hated, writing tropes all at once. These days I look at my old Do'Urden books rightways, sideways and upside down trying to decide if they were the best writing i'd ever seen, or the absolute worst.

    Ironically, I think I liked R.A Salavators other book, the Crimson Cape, more then all of them now that i'm older.

    Maybe “so schlocky it’s good”?

    Y’know like every Schwarzenegger movie ever?

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    I do I read Forgotten Realms for years. It spawned some of my most beloved, and probably my most hated, writing tropes all at once. These days I look at my old Do'Urden books rightways, sideways and upside down trying to decide if they were the best writing i'd ever seen, or the absolute worst.

    Ironically, I think I liked R.A Salavators other book, the Crimson Cape, more then all of them now that i'm older.

    Maybe “so schlocky it’s good”?

    Y’know like every Schwarzenegger movie ever?

    I would definitely qualify the later books as that. Artimis Entres side stories were straight up awesome all around if you've seen them. The concept of a Drow more like a human with a counterpart whose a human more like a Drow is so simplistic, but it meshes so well.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Drizzt" fell out of favour because how much it got copied, over and over, in all kind of stories, games, movies and franchises. The "black elves" were born from drizzt novels, hammered into a shallow trope and then became the edgelord stereotipe first choice for decades.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    I do I read Forgotten Realms for years. It spawned some of my most beloved, and probably my most hated, writing tropes all at once. These days I look at my old Do'Urden books rightways, sideways and upside down trying to decide if they were the best writing i'd ever seen, or the absolute worst.

    Ironically, I think I liked R.A Salavators other book, the Crimson Cape, more then all of them now that i'm older.

    Maybe “so schlocky it’s good”?

    Y’know like every Schwarzenegger movie ever?

    I would definitely qualify the later books as that. Artimis Entres side stories were straight up awesome all around if you've seen them. The concept of a Drow more like a human with a counterpart whose a human more like a Drow is so simplistic, but it meshes so well.

    Indeed. I mean, there’s definitely a reason why the character is so relatively famous after all.

    Though it definitely might be the nostalgia goggles talking. I haven’t read the books in ages, and it was at the height of my nerddom I did read them. I first encountered the character in Baldur’s Gate and when I learned it was merely a cameo and he was from a book series I eagerly went out and got them. Ah... memories...

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    after reading OP thread three times, I'm still lost what his argument is trying to justify...

    what dev is going to work on is whatever will bring in the most revenue for the work required to put in
    in simple financial terms, Return on Assets, how much extra dollar is gained for every dollar spent.

    even though they said "they are here for the players", but at the end of the day they cannot feed their employees and their families with words

    slapping on a new race skin does not make people to spend more on gem store nor does potential new players would buy a game just because of a race, people buy games to play new contents

    creating a new race require a new player model to be created, even if there's already an existing npc model that can be reused, anet need to go back and tweak 5 years of existing armor arts for the new race

    if you give Anet $100,000.00 USD, probably they will be more than happy to hire a new person to work 100% of the time on giving you the new race you wanted in a year's time.

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
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  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    if you give Anet $100,000.00 USD, probably they will be more than happy to hire a new person to work 100% of the time on giving you the new race you wanted in a year's time.

    We could always do a Kickstarter campaign for that purpose. With Anet's approval. Companies are willing to do all sorts of things, they normally wouldn't invest resources into, with outside funding.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    I also own several of those books. :heart: I don't think they've been anything amazing(outside of the origin trilogy) as pieces of writing but they are sufficiently light reading to pick up every now and then. I do enjoy the characters very much, I think it's the one thing Salvatore does excellently.

    My first love, though, was Wheel of Time. (and no, I didn't know what I was getting myself into...) Was a lot of pages but I never regretted any of it.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    after reading OP thread three times, I'm still lost what his argument is trying to justify...

    what dev is going to work on is whatever will bring in the most revenue for the work required to put in
    in simple financial terms, Return on Assets, how much extra dollar is gained for every dollar spent.

    even though they said "they are here for the players", but at the end of the day they cannot feed their employees and their families with words

    slapping on a new race skin does not make people to spend more on gem store nor does potential new players would buy a game just because of a race, people buy games to play new contents

    creating a new race require a new player model to be created, even if there's already an existing npc model that can be reused, anet need to go back and tweak 5 years of existing armor arts for the new race

    if you give Anet $100,000.00 USD, probably they will be more than happy to hire a new person to work 100% of the time on giving you the new race you wanted in a year's time.

    I think we are talking about completely different things. I've got no clue what you're trying to say here.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Never seen the lore argument of xyz being pacifists etc before I have to say

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

    Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

    Really? It always seems to come about whenever there's a discussion about potential races. So I wanted to make a thread explaining why that's not a good argument.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

    Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

    This.

    The workload already is very high to make armors work on 5 different races, I doubt it is a realistic assumption that arenanet will be willing to increase this even further.

    Imagine:

    • having to rework all existing armors, weapons, backpieces to work with a new race. Even if it was similar in size as norn (in case of big tengu) or human/sylvari, the work would not be insignificant
    • creating entire new racial sets (otherwise this race is just 2nd class)
    • having to design armors around then 6 races
    • people suddenly complaining why race X was added and not race Y
    • making the story work for a new race not only from a lore point but voice over
    • designing a new capital city for the new race

    Granted some of those issues could be left to a minimum accepting that a new race just isn't as huge as the established ones, but even then the workload would be huge.

    The lore argument is mostly moot and tiny compared to the problem of realizing this dream.

    Oh, believe me I know it's a lot of work. I studied game development in college and I work in the industry. This would be a thing for an expansion, not just some random update.

    But I know for a fact that it is possible. Heck, other games do it relatively often.

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:
    Here's the thing though, a race's culture does not define a character's personality. I always roll my eyes in fantasy stories when you have dwarves that are always like "I'm a dwarf so I have a beard and love drinking alcohol and I work in the mines and am super manly all the time because that's what dwarves do." or that all Orcs are big and strong, all Elves are extremely well mannered and swift etc etc.

    You should read some Salvatore novels. Pikel Bouldershoulder will be the most refreshingly different dwarf you can find.

    Orcs are big and strong because they are big and strong, just like humans have 5 fingers, so that comparison doesn't really work. Sure there could be midget Orcs(not sure if that's offensive?) but I think the general orcish custom would be to banish such elements.

    Basically, why do fantasy races always have to be walking stereotypes of their own nation's culture?

    Why are 98% of Somalian girls circumcised to this day? Because customs and culture are strongly rooted. Even more so without the influence of media and the internet.

    Returning to fantasy stereotypes, how do you know what the psyche of an elf is? Are their reasons and thoughts even comprehensible to humans? Can an elf have the desire to be different from his kin? Is their culture inherently tied to their physical being?

    Humans in a multicultural environment, members of sub-groups tend to emphasize their heritage to distinguish themselves from others and to also seek kinship from fellow members of said sub-group. That also brings out stereotypical behaviour. Humans devolve to the most common denomination to find kinship, or in modern terms, friends.

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it. My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    I mean, I'm Lebanese but you don't see me wearing that on my backside or upholding my knight's honor because I'm also a quarter English or something like that. But in a fantasy setting it's always "Yeah, my entire character revolves around my heritage." It's like they can't be their own person.

    And like I said, this game has done well to distance itself from falling into that trap. We have Quaggan warriors, Charr who don't like to fight, Norn who are scholars etc. So it especially irks me when people use that logic for this game's lore.

    And as for the Elf bit... That would imply that elves don't have free will and I'm not sure how much stock I'd put into that because that would mean they aren't a "race" but just another creature. And that's... not really a discussion we should get into. >

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

    Simple as that.

    That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

    But when your entire character revolves around those stereotypes or that every member of your fantasy race is a walking example of those stereotypes, it gets kind of silly.

    On another note, looks like there's a lot of fantasy books that I should be reading. I didn't realize there was so much good stuff out there. Usually when I'm at the bookstore a lot of the fantasy books I see seem really generic.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:
    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it. My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    How do you know orcs even need exercise, and that's not just how their muscles grow naturally into? I mean opossums can lift around 10 times their own weight and they certainly don't exercise. Human muscles are actually rather weak if you start comparing with real life animals. Orcs are also frequently short in some settings. Orcs in the Forgotten Realms setting are shorter than humans on average but there is variation, and usually it's the big and strong ones that lead tribes of orcs. Survival of the fittest and all. Point being that it's usually based on setting. In the Warcraft setting you can frequently see Orcs reading books. Heck, their longtime Warboss Thrall was a scholar basically, a shaman. Shamans are rather sophisticated in that particular setting.

    And as for the Elf bit... That would imply that elves don't have free will and I'm not sure how much stock I'd put into that because that would mean they aren't a "race" but just another creature. And that's... not really a discussion we should get into. >

    You didn't quite understand what I was getting at but that's alright. I don't really want to continue that line of thinking. It's a rabbit hole.

    On another note, looks like there's a lot of fantasy books that I should be reading. I didn't realize there was so much good stuff out there. Usually when I'm at the bookstore a lot of the fantasy books I see seem really generic.

    Book stores usually have a rather limited selection. You should maybe do some research online first, then order the books online as well. It's best to learn to read in english, as a lot of the good books have never been translated. I have that problem usually as my language is very small.

    "100 fantasy books to read before you die" is a good search title IMO, and your basic reference. It'll give you your basic Tolkiens, Rowlings, Pratchets and what-not but you'll likely see names you haven't seen before. Then just get acquinted with their production, see if they're in the habit of making trilogies, standalone books or "sagas". Usually you find a good place to start.

    Personally I just finished Steven Erikson's 6th Malazan book, The Bone Hunters. He's an amazing writer but I always have to warn people that it's some effing advanced reading. You will be very confused from page 1 of the first book and it doesn't really start unraveling until the 3rd book in the series. Then book 5 throws you right back into the deep end. He's designed the entire 10-book series to constantly keep you at the edge of your seat, never really sure if you are reading the main story. Or what the narrative for the entire series is supposed to be.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't read all the comments I admit, but the main reason making a new race would be difficult, is because they have to make a personnal story path for them. With new voices, new areas, new instances, new paths, all fitting perfectly into the end of the personnal story with the pact and all. This is no small work. Add to that they need to design new racial skills for the sake of "race equality", and that they also need to record new dialogues for ALL the living story and expansions, and you start to understand why this would be quite difficult. And don't forget adapting the armors and weapons to that new race's body shape, for both genders...

    But yea, I would absolutely love a new race. Tengu? People have been asking for them for quite a while and we already have a dedicated, unused spot in the map for their starting area (behind the great wall that's east of the Caledon Forest). I've always imagined the skritt as a playable race but you would control 3 grouped individuals, to fit with their "smarter in numbers" lore. Of course they would count as one for all the game's mechanics, it would be merely cosmetic.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Really? It always seems to come about whenever there's a discussion about potential races. So I wanted to make a thread explaining why that's not a good argument.

    Took a quick gander at your posts, and it looks like those discussions have been in General? That'd probably explain it. Different regulars there, and different regular arguments.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Really? It always seems to come about whenever there's a discussion about potential races. So I wanted to make a thread explaining why that's not a good argument.

    Took a quick gander at your posts, and it looks like those discussions have been in General? That'd probably explain it. Different regulars there, and different regular arguments.

    It didn't cross my mind that folks would exclusively stay in one section of the forums. Weird that that wouldn't come up here, considering it is about lore.

    As a result, I thought this would be the most appropriate place to post this. Weird.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh, don't get me wrong, we still have plenty of suggesting/discussing/debating new playable races here. It's just that the folks who regularly check the lore forum seem to be on the same page as you are, at least on this. A quaggan adventurer might be a few different things, but it isn't lorebreaking.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I frankly have only on very few occasion seen the "because lore doesn't allow them" argument. I have applied it myself, but usually to races non existent in Tyria, like the whole "high elves" thing, which to be honest, goes way farther than merely "their stereotype doesn't allow it". The notable exception are largos, to which I have spoke against in every possible way, just to demonstrate how farfetched using them would be. But even in their case, the "because lore doesn't allow them" criteria has never been between the more relevant ones.
    As has been exposed in the previous posts, the major counters to a new race are technical and cost-benefit ones. Lore and story can always be adjusted.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Oh, don't get me wrong, we still have plenty of suggesting/discussing/debating new playable races here. It's just that the folks who regularly check the lore forum seem to be on the same page as you are, at least on this. A quaggan adventurer might be a few different things, but it isn't lorebreaking.

    That's very interesting. Heh, funny, I guess those who argue about the lore, don't really know it that well.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you** saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.** My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Skyrim got an Orc like that..

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you** saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.** My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Skyrim got an Orc like that..

    That's true but Elder Scrolls NPCs aren't exactly characters but lifeless cardboard cutouts. So I don't know if that counts.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i've heard many arguments against making the lesser races playable but never "they're pacifist in lore"

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you** saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.** My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Skyrim got an Orc like that..

    Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you** saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.** My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Skyrim got an Orc like that..

    Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

    Aren’t, like, half of the races in Elder Scrolls just elves in varying degrees of degeneracy..? :wink

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you** saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.** My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Skyrim got an Orc like that..

    Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

    Aren’t, like, half of the races in Elder Scrolls just elves in varying degrees of degeneracy..? :wink

    Orcs are in fact elves in Elder Scrolls, yes.

    Basically, anything that ends in "mer" is an elf.

    Orcs are also known as Orismer

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    @Magek.4718 said:
    Orcs are in fact elves in Elder Scrolls, yes.

    Basically, anything that ends in "mer" is an elf.

    Orcs are also known as Orismer

    And that includes the Dwemer, also known as dwarves. Dwarves are elves in the elder scrolls series and that's a hilarious thing considering traditional racial tensions between the two races. But there is a definite distinction between orcs and elves considering the orcslayer weapons that are called 'orcslayer' and only affect orcs, not elves as a whole.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    I've always imagined the skritt as a playable race but you would control 3 grouped individuals, to fit with their "smarter in numbers" lore. Of course they would count as one for all the game's mechanics, it would be merely cosmetic.

    I know we're in the lore section of a Guild Wars 2 forum, but Allods online literally has a small race (the gibberlings) where you play as 3 while mechanically playing as one character. I don't know if I tried it, since I tried the game for like 10 minutes years ago, but I know it's there.

    Unless that' where you got the idea from in which case ignore me.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • well, if you look at the germanic roots of elves and dwarfes, they actually ARE related. Even the same.

    Later came the 'elves are evil undead spirits in the wood'. And then came Tolkien.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭

    My inner edgelord would love to play a Largos, if i'm honest with myself.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

    Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

    This.

    The workload already is very high to make armors work on 5 different races, I doubt it is a realistic assumption that arenanet will be willing to increase this even further.

    Imagine:

    • having to rework all existing armors, weapons, backpieces to work with a new race. Even if it was similar in size as norn (in case of big tengu) or human/sylvari, the work would not be insignificant
    • creating entire new racial sets (otherwise this race is just 2nd class)
    • having to design armors around then 6 races
    • people suddenly complaining why race X was added and not race Y
    • making the story work for a new race not only from a lore point but voice over
    • designing a new capital city for the new race

    Granted some of those issues could be left to a minimum accepting that a new race just isn't as huge as the established ones, but even then the workload would be huge.

    The lore argument is mostly moot and tiny compared to the problem of realizing this dream.

    The tengu have a city which was almost done, they were intended for HoT but then pushed back to prevent EVERY SINGLE TENGU from being a revenant. They got new models unique to them with new animations again unique to them, they have a dedicated voice actor. Their posture is different but the rig looks similar to the charr just slimmer so using the same stuff they use on the charr for tengu is a fair assumption. The real reason we have seen no and probably will never see effort on the part of A-net is even if they wanted to do it and do want to do it, The community really honestly in bulk probably wouldn't care. "I don't want them to invest resources in this, because I want it in maps or raids." Maps have been kitten since HoT; And the Raids are meant for 10% of the player base at best. So to be completely honest a new race is like mounts, a huge expansion seller accessible to every SINGLE PLAYER.

    As for the lore at this point who gives a kitten, makes no sense as to where the hell rev players came from during the base game as rytlock was the FIRST AND ONLY rev in the storyline up until he was pulled to the black citadel. The complete HoT story was jumbled and the lore is iffy at best, and the PoF lore is just as like "Yes, this kitten happened off screen and your expected to accept it." The point is the Lore is not justifable excuse for it as tengu are in the pact, and hell they joined our guild halls AND TAUGHT US SCRIBEING. Scribeing is described as a Tengu practice they gave to use for our guild halls which they joined; So they are already involved.

    With level 80 boosters being accesible to be purchased and them handing them out every single expansion why not make it that you have to have one level 80 on the account (Use the booster.) And then you get to make a tengu, Who comes level 80 with full exotic gear in a little scenario explaining why you are involved and where you interject into the story (For example maybe you joined the pact against Zaihtan and the commander at that point and time in your version of the story dies at some point, leaving you in charge.) Which then spits you out with half the personal story done after a small little scenario showcasing the death of the "Commander" whom you replace, they don't even really need to give that commander that much screentime or a name. Just the commander. And that would be one of your major plot choices, the commander would appear in the mordremoth fight rather than tybalt and friends. And you would see that moment in the domain of the lost durring that whole thing; It would not be hard to do and any other races to be added could follow the same formula. (Especially considering they are almost ALL in the pact by this point. Excluding the new ogres we met in PoF)

    Its not a matter of when or if they will do it, it comes down to us as a community pestering them and badgering them like people did about mounts. Otherwise they will just assume no one wants it which for a community as .... "colorful" as this one perhaps the only thing anyone cares about is partical effects and their human female "Bikini" armor to really give credence to the notion of a new race. Frankly Im bored and was never interested in the current races outside of the norn (Whom they botched.) The tengu were the ones I wanted... So Imma vote with my wallet. Anyone else who wants new races should vote as well, less there is a new race dont buy the expansion simple as that.. eventually they will put it in to see if it will bring people in and if it does you better kitten well believe they will continue to do it lol.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

    Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

    This.

    The workload already is very high to make armors work on 5 different races, I doubt it is a realistic assumption that arenanet will be willing to increase this even further.

    Imagine:

    • having to rework all existing armors, weapons, backpieces to work with a new race. Even if it was similar in size as norn (in case of big tengu) or human/sylvari, the work would not be insignificant
    • creating entire new racial sets (otherwise this race is just 2nd class)
    • having to design armors around then 6 races
    • people suddenly complaining why race X was added and not race Y
    • making the story work for a new race not only from a lore point but voice over
    • designing a new capital city for the new race

    Granted some of those issues could be left to a minimum accepting that a new race just isn't as huge as the established ones, but even then the workload would be huge.

    The lore argument is mostly moot and tiny compared to the problem of realizing this dream.

    The tengu have a city which was almost done, they were intended for HoT but then pushed back to prevent EVERY SINGLE TENGU from being a revenant. They got new models unique to them with new animations again unique to them, they have a dedicated voice actor. Their posture is different but the rig looks similar to the charr just slimmer so using the same stuff they use on the charr for tengu is a fair assumption. The real reason we have seen no and probably will never see effort on the part of A-net is even if they wanted to do it and do want to do it, The community really honestly in bulk probably wouldn't care. "I don't want them to invest resources in this, because I want it in maps or raids." Maps have been kitten since HoT; And the Raids are meant for 10% of the player base at best. So to be completely honest a new race is like mounts, a huge expansion seller accessible to every SINGLE PLAYER.

    Source? I've have never heard of this. Not saying this is not true, simply it goes against anything I have ever heard from any official side. The argument that new armors take time is always officially backed up by the fact that armors need to get customized to 5 races.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    As for the lore at this point who gives a kitten, makes no sense as to where the hell rev players came from during the base game as rytlock was the FIRST AND ONLY rev in the storyline up until he was pulled to the black citadel. The complete HoT story was jumbled and the lore is iffy at best, and the PoF lore is just as like "Yes, this kitten happened off screen and your expected to accept it." The point is the Lore is not justifable excuse for it as tengu are in the pact, and hell they joined our guild halls AND TAUGHT US SCRIBEING. Scribeing is described as a Tengu practice they gave to use for our guild halls which they joined; So they are already involved.

    Your personal subjective opinion does not have to be reflected in the majorities opinion. You might not care about lore, others do. You might not have enjoyed the story unfold, others have. My point was, lore will not have been a deciding factor for not adding a new race since workload trumps lore on this issue.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    With level 80 boosters being accesible to be purchased and them handing them out every single expansion why not make it that you have to have one level 80 on the account (Use the booster.) And then you get to make a tengu, Who comes level 80 with full exotic gear in a little scenario explaining why you are involved and where you interject into the story (For example maybe you joined the pact against Zaihtan and the commander at that point and time in your version of the story dies at some point, leaving you in charge.) Which then spits you out with half the personal story done after a small little scenario showcasing the death of the "Commander" whom you replace, they don't even really need to give that commander that much screentime or a name. Just the commander. And that would be one of your major plot choices, the commander would appear in the mordremoth fight rather than tybalt and friends. And you would see that moment in the domain of the lost durring that whole thing; It would not be hard to do and any other races to be added could follow the same formula. (Especially considering they are almost ALL in the pact by this point. Excluding the new ogres we met in PoF)

    This "solution" has so many holes in it, where to start:

    • making level 80 boosters required to create a special character on a select race
    • what about additional Tengu characters? People have more than 5 character slots and some people like to have multiple of 1 class or race
    • the last time Arenanet fumbled in the original vanilla story code and tried to reshape or move around things, it did not end well
    • removing a huge part of the probably best part of a races story (levels 1-30) might not be a big issue to veteran players, it certainly would be to new players which would automatically gravitate more to a new race with a new expansion

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    Its not a matter of when or if they will do it, it comes down to us as a community pestering them and badgering them like people did about mounts. Otherwise they will just assume no one wants it which for a community as .... "colorful" as this one perhaps the only thing anyone cares about is partical effects and their human female "Bikini" armor to really give credence to the notion of a new race. Frankly Im bored and was never interested in the current races outside of the norn (Whom they botched.) The tengu were the ones I wanted... So Imma vote with my wallet. Anyone else who wants new races should vote as well, less there is a new race dont buy the expansion simple as that.. eventually they will put it in to see if it will bring people in and if it does you better kitten well believe they will continue to do it lol.

    As long as the work to reward ratio is beneficial, it remains a possibility. Unless shown proof otherwise, I'm not seeing it at the moment.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

    Eh, Tengu are honestly pretty boring.

    I want Quaggan personally (If it wasn't obvious)

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    It's almost a crime to not mention Morgoth/Melkor, the daddy of all dark lord characters, at this point.
    That kitten, Sauron, pales in comparison to his master.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    It's almost a crime to not mention Morgoth/Melkor, the daddy of all dark lord characters, at this point.
    That kitten, Sauron, pales in comparison to his master.

    never heard of him, starting to invatigate this matter for a while thanks ;D

    im pretty sure it was said somewhere that tengu were considered as a new race but i cant find it.
    id prefere that the "lesser races" from the orders personal stories will NEVER be considered playable. None of em!

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @norbes.3620 said:

    im pretty sure it was said somewhere that tengu were considered as a new race but i cant find it.

    In the hardcopy book that came with the Collector's Edition of the base game, it's mentioned that there was a time when the game was meant to launch with six races, and that the Dominion of Wind had had some work put into it before the idea was scrapped. As far as I'm aware, though, there's been no point where the devs have suggested they've revived the idea. The company's always been clear: they won't rule new races out altogether, but it's very, very unlikely to happen.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

    Eh, Tengu are honestly pretty boring.

    I want Quaggan personally (If it wasn't obvious)

    I mean I'd want Skritt, but I'm being realistic in that Tengu are the most likely to get added since they were going to be in originally, have an entire unused section of the map to themselves and would be easier to animate and such, some of the work is already there.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Magek.4718 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

    Eh, Tengu are honestly pretty boring.

    I want Quaggan personally (If it wasn't obvious)

    I mean I'd want Skritt, but I'm being realistic in that Tengu are the most likely to get added since they were going to be in originally, have an entire unused section of the map to themselves and would be easier to animate and such, some of the work is already there.

    Oh, I agree with you, I just wouldn't be too stoked about it.

    I mean, it'd be something new and interesting at the very least. Just as long as it wasn't a one and done kind of deal.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    well, if you look at the germanic roots of elves and dwarfes, they actually ARE related. Even the same.

    Later came the 'elves are evil undead spirits in the wood'. And then came Tolkien.

    In Nordic mythology, dwarves and "dark elves" are suspected to have been the same thing, as the names are used to refer to beings with very similar attributes; meanwhile "light elves" (which the inspiration for typical depiction of modern elves, blood elves, or whatever you wish to call them - the ones which hang out in white cities, not in trees - originates) were something else, and were typically treated as the third branch of gods (alongside the aesir and the vanir).

  • @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    Didn't Tolkien invent Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll have to look that up but I'm fairly certain orcs go back as far as goblins do

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    Didn't Tolkien invent Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

    According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Not all sterotypes are based on reality though. Blondes are not objectively less intelligent than other hair colors as an example. Some stereotypes are simply indications of exaggerated ignorance.

    Odd example to bring up, but several theories exist about why blonde women are special.
    The "stupid" stereotype may or may not originate in the person of Rosalie Duthé, who was a courtesan to the king of France. She was not particularly popular with parts of the nobility and often took long pauses before speaking. This may have been stupidity, or she was a socially awkward courtesan. In any case, blonde women have been historically seen as an ideal of beauty. So many successes they may have achieved out of their own merit were attributed to their supposed attractiveness, while their failings were mocked.
    I have my own idea about the aspect of stupidity. Due to their general advantage in the field of marriage, blonde women likely entered marriage at a younger age than their peers. As partners to highly successful or influential men, they were often thrust into prominent places of society with less preparation than other women. This may have lead to these women being seen as "naive" due to their younger age, which likely got twisted into "stupid" by their competitors.

    In the world of Tyria, I guess there are different stereotypes, ranging from firmly grounded in reality, like (from a human's perspective) "charr are strong and tough!" to general observations "Asura are really intelligent!" to exaggerated "All Skritt are thieves!"
    All in all, stereotypes exist, because generalizations can be helpful for survival. To use a DnD examle, one of my dungeon runs had our party entering a cursed treasury. A good number of treasure chests were actually mimics, so after the first two mimic encounters we left all the other treasure chests alone. This may have caused us to miss out on some gold, but at least we managed to get the item we were sent to retrieve and managed to not lose a pary member to container shaped monsters.
    In Tyria humans were well advised to keep their distance from any charr in and around Ascalon. Of course humans stereotyped charr as blood thirsty killing machines. Well, as time progresses the old stereotype may become less and less relevant, but humans entering Ascalon could expect charr aggression from 1090 A.E. to 1324/1325 A.E. .

    As for new races, Tengu are the most likely candidate, but I have no idea how that would be integrated into the story. There would likely have to be a separate Tengu campaign, which later merges into the main narrative thread, but I fear we are way past that point with the famous commander.
    Which is not to say that it's impossible, as there were Tengu who joined forces with the pact, such as Izu Steelshrike, but they were few in number and a release of the Tengu race would cause a sudden explosion of tengu players everywhere.
    Not to mention their home and starting area will likely remain closed for all the other races until some event in the world narrative causes them to cautously open up to adventurers.
    This means, if we are to introduce Tengu as a playable race, we have to do it in a way that doesn't exclude the rest of the playerbase.
    Here's how it could be done: A Tengu themed expansion to the game launches. This opens up the Domain of the Winds to all players who own the appropriate expansion pack. The expansion pack unlocks the tengu as a playable race, whith their own campaign that starts, as one would expect in 1325 A.E. with an intrigue between the noble houses. One of the houses is in favour of opening up diplomatic relations with the other races, two are cautous, a fourth is firmly against it. Since no conclusion can be reached in the first to personal story episodes, your character is sent as a scout to see if the outsiders want to murder all tengu the moment they open their gates. From that point onwards, continue story as normal.
    Eventually, the Tengu are in the position where they need outside help. Maybe it's Steve Bubbles, a civil war, mabe their magic went haywire, maybe it's something else entirely. It forces the Domain to recall their scouts and uncharacteristically ask for help.
    And who would be better suited to deal with a colossal world ending threat that the Commander™, who alongside Dragon's Watch and the Pact (Remember how close the Domain is to Lion's Arch?) Goes in to save the day.

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    Didn't Tolkien invent Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

    According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

    That's....not what I'm coming up with, particularly in regards to Orcs specifically. That google search may have been too quick. And, frankly there's a whole lot else wrong with the above statement, especially the use of "cribbed". Everybody that writes or creates something is influenced by those that came before, everyone, and Tolkien absolutely did use various Germanic and Celtic languages and cultural stories when creating the world of Middle-earth. He also used heavy Christian influences, which aren't going to be found in a this specific Germanic (pagan) legend you haven't cited.
    (the creation of Gandalf did include some influence from Odin, as some legends spoke of the Norse god disguised as an old man wandering throughout the human lands, but that aspect is about all that Gandalf gets from Odin)

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    Color me impressed but this is what Wikipedia had to say on the matter:

    "While the overall concept of orcs draws on a variety of pre-existing mythology, the main conception of the creatures stems from the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, in particular The Lord of the Rings. In Tolkien's works, orcs are a brutish, aggressive, repulsive and generally malevolent species, existing in stark contrast with the benevolent Elvish race and generally serving an evil power. Tolkien's concept of orcs has subsequently been adapted and imported into other works of fantasy fiction as well as role-playing and strategy games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, and Warcraft), broadening the recognition of the creatures in popular culture.

    Earlier references to creatures etymologically or conceptually similar to orcs can be found in Anglo-Saxon sources; including Beowulf and 16th-century Italian folk tales, in particular those of Giambattista Basile."

    I could have sworn Orcs were an actual mythological creature like Goblins were and dated back just as far with similar origins. I feel betrayed.

  • @Magek.4718 said:
    Color me impressed but this is what Wikipedia had to say on the matter:

    "While the overall concept of orcs draws on a variety of pre-existing mythology, the main conception of the creatures stems from the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, in particular The Lord of the Rings. In Tolkien's works, orcs are a brutish, aggressive, repulsive and generally malevolent species, existing in stark contrast with the benevolent Elvish race and generally serving an evil power. Tolkien's concept of orcs has subsequently been adapted and imported into other works of fantasy fiction as well as role-playing and strategy games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, and Warcraft), broadening the recognition of the creatures in popular culture.

    Earlier references to creatures etymologically or conceptually similar to orcs can be found in Anglo-Saxon sources; including Beowulf and 16th-century Italian folk tales, in particular those of Giambattista Basile."

    I could have sworn Orcs were an actual mythological creature like Goblins were and dated back just as far with similar origins. I feel betrayed.

    Like all things, they have influences from older sources, but overall 'Orcs' are something created by Tolkien first.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

    You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

    Didn't Tolkien invent Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

    According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

    That's....not what I'm coming up with, particularly in regards to Orcs specifically. That google search may have been too quick. And, frankly there's a whole lot else wrong with the above statement, especially the use of "cribbed". Everybody that writes or creates something is influenced by those that came before, everyone, and Tolkien absolutely did use various Germanic and Celtic languages and cultural stories when creating the world of Middle-earth. He also used heavy Christian influences, which aren't going to be found in a this specific Germanic (pagan) legend you haven't cited.
    (the creation of Gandalf did include some influence from Odin, as some legends spoke of the Norse god disguised as an old man wandering throughout the human lands, but that aspect is about all that Gandalf gets from Odin)

    No need to get so defensive, cribbed is a correct word for what I was communicating. A lot of elements of his stories do in fact borrow from Norse stories, which is exactly what cribbed from means. The rings of power, dwarves, elves, even the name middle earth can be said to come from the Norse Midgard. You also left out the fact that Gandalf isn't in fact human but is basically a godlike being in setting. The robe and wizard hat look is from Odin. Tolkien being a Christian would no doubt have an affect on interpretation of as you call it "pagan" works. Doesn't make it not an interpretation, look up "Der Ring des Nibelungen" it's where the concept of the one ring is from. Which is itself an interpretation of the Nibelungenlied.

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