Ritualist as a Class? Or Elite Spec?

[Elric.4713]

@"Lily.1935" said:"Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master." — The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

Kinda like how Shiro and Mallyx taunt us and demand that we release them?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Elric.4713 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:

"Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master."

— The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

Kinda like how Shiro and Mallyx taunt us and demand that we release them?

By communing with the channeled spirits that provide me with their skills and abilities ingame to boot.

[Lily.1935]

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

[Lily.1935]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

[Lily.1935]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

[Elric.4713]

@Lily.1935 said:Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

Again, Engineer is the mechanical successor, Revenant got the rest of the Ritualist class fantasy. Also, the ingame things that we keep posting as proof you just brush over with posts like that Marjory short story in which she see's a ghost as if that is suppose to be something special.

[Lily.1935]

@Elric.4713 said:

@Lily.1935 said:Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

Again, Engineer is the mechanical successor, Revenant got the rest of the Ritualist class fantasy. Also, the ingame things that we keep posting as proof you just brush over with posts like that Marjory short story in which she see's a ghost as if that is suppose to be something special.

She communes with the ghost. She doesn't just see it she communes with it.

Commune: share one's intimate thoughts or feelings with (someone or something), especially when the exchange is on a spiritual level.

Pretty sure the kids death is fairly intimate. By definition that is what she was doing. And the ritualist was broken up across multiple classes. I'm not brushing that off, I acknowledged that multiple times.

[Lily.1935]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

The Blindfold wasn't an Iconic Armor piece of the Ritualist. It was common armor in GW1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blindfold The head dressing was used in GW1 to better focus their senses. But they didn't need it to maintain that connection. The way their animations worked was that they would close their eyes during casting to better commune with them. Yes this is a parallel. But its not Unique to the Ritualist. Channeling magic in GW1 suggests that the freedom of motion is required. Each of the Casters in GW1 were extremely animate in the way they moved. Ritualist was the most animate.

Engineer is the successor. Mechanically. Thematically its broken up across professions. Including but not limited to Necromancer, Guardian and Revenant. This was confirmed in an interview. ALSO there was a massive Stink over the Revenant being added into the game because it absolutely TRAMPLED over necromancer's theme. It was a massive complaint in the Necromancer forums. I like Revenant, I do. I like Ritualists. They are not the same thing. They have similarities, but nothing that isn't superficial.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ScottBroChill.3254" said:And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

The Blindfold wasn't an Iconic Armor piece of the Ritualist. It was common armor in GW1.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blindfold

The head dressing was used in GW1 to better focus their senses. But they didn't need it to maintain that connection. The way their animations worked was that they would close their eyes during casting to better commune with them. Yes this is a parallel. But its not Unique to the Ritualist. Channeling magic in GW1 suggests that the freedom of motion is required. Each of the Casters in GW1 were extremely animate in the way they moved. Ritualist was the most animate.

Engineer is the successor. Mechanically. Thematically its broken up across professions. Including but not limited to Necromancer, Guardian and Revenant. This was confirmed in an interview. ALSO there was a massive Stink over the Revenant being added into the game because it absolutely TRAMPLED over necromancer's theme. It was a massive complaint in the Necromancer forums. I like Revenant, I do. I like Ritualists. They are not the same thing. They have similarities, but nothing that isn't superficial.

If the Blindfold wasn’t an iconic armor piece of the Ritualist then why is one of the first things in the classes class description on why they hood their eyes?

Thematically it is Revenant being the spiritual successor they have the most direct parallels to Ritualist, and again Anet gave only that class the title of Ritualist, they took the Theme of Ritualist Channeling Spirits from the Mists to provide their spells and abilities and mechanically gave that to Revenant, the theme of Ritualists Communing with spirits of the Mists, Revenants actually talk to the figures they Channel, Revenants can summon spirits to assist them in combat, Revenants also are a support class to empower allies. Then there’s the class icon and the Blindfold used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist. In Gw2 There is no other class that channel figures from the Mists and Communes with them, and no other class was given the Ritualist title.....

And please where is that interview, if it’s on the Internet it’s still there, it sounds like another claim with nothing to back it.

[Lily.1935]

Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

[Elric.4713]

@Lily.1935 said:Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

To be honest, what I'd like Necromancer to get if we get to go to Cantha is either some kind of Vampiric specialization (Echovald), or even one that is Lovecraft inspired (Jade Sea).

[Lily.1935]

@Elric.4713 said:

@Lily.1935 said:Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

To be honest, what I'd like Necromancer to get if we get to go to Cantha is either some kind of Vampiric specialization (Echovald), or even one that is Lovecraft inspired (Jade Sea).

I'd rather they didn't. Vampiric elite spec would be a tank without reliable support for allies and would be mostly forgotten in PvE. It would probably be nerfed into the ground for PvP. And honestly, I and most the necromancer community want to summon spirits. Because we are necromancers.

[Lily.1935]

Here are some Beginning concepts I have for a Ritualist variant for Revenant and Necromancer.

Envoy: Envoke the power of Emissary Heleyne Legendary Spirit Stance

We don't have much story on her, but we do know she was quite the Villain in Canthan lore. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy But Anet could expand on the Crimes of the Envoys and she has the coolest design in my opinion and seems like she was a ritualist of her time. Master Togo is fine, but he's too weak for the power I want to Give and evoking a being who was extremely powerful, perhaps more powerful in death, would be a really cool flavor win. But lets get to the mechanic!

Legendary Aspect: Your f2-3 gain access to Totems of your Unused Legends. They may be ordered in any way you like. So, lets say you have Heleyne and we'll say Ventari as the Two legends as the swap. Well, these Skills will very depending on Shiro, Mallyx and Jalis Ironhammer. You'll call Totems of these legends which could provide some form of additional support to your allies and be kept up most the time. Shiro could Provide a Shiroken Buff of blades, Mallyx could pull conditions onto itself from you and allies and transfer them or corrupt boons, Jalis could offer periodic damage reduction, Ventari could provide heals and Heleyne could do energy stuff.

Weapons: I was thinking Scepter/focus or Scepter/Torch. These weapons would be supportive, controlling and Energy manipulating. The focus/torch would need to grant energy in some way, I feel its the only way to really make this work.

Utility: I'm a bit stumped on what to do here. Conjuring more spirits from the mists to act as totems could work alright but ultimately I don't want to tread on the same ground as Herald or Renegade.

Necromancer's I'll work out later, I really like the idea of using the Urn's mechanical identity with shroud so that's going to stay the same. And as for the Spirits, those can stay the same as well in my initial post. The major Difference is the lore which would be taken from Flame Legion charr as opposed to the Canthans. Not that Cantha couldn't work with it.

[Bunny.9834]

I feel like the whole Ritualist mechanic is only best suited for GW1. GW2 gamestyle is very dynamic and relies heavily on mobility. Ritualist gamestyle is heavy on turtling. The Rev and Engi mechanics are similar but are more mobile friendly than the GW1 Spirit Rit.

[InsaneQR.7412]

What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

[derd.6413]

i doubt it.skills that use ai are constantly complained about because of their aimost ritualist mechanics have been put in the other classes alreadyand ritualist theme is just a variation on revenant

[Lily.1935]

@"InsaneQR.7412" said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"InsaneQR.7412" said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

[Lily.1935]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

[Lily.1935]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

That's not really a flaw with the concept, just Arena Net. And I feel that it works well enough now for it to function. I frequently use a handful of minions, Shadow Fiend and Flesh Golem, and they function well enough. The spirits would end up having the same limitations since half would need to attack.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:What the heck happened to this thread.Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

• Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
• Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
• yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

At the end it doesnt really matter.

So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

That's not really a flaw with the concept, just Arena Net. And I feel that it works well enough now for it to function. I frequently use a handful of minions, Shadow Fiend and Flesh Golem, and they function well enough. The spirits would end up having the same limitations since half would need to attack.

I did not claum that your concept is flawed. I siad AI is flawed which hinders your concept to really shine. Control over minions are lacking and it would be quiet cool if they could implement a weapon mechanic that summons minions when you kill someone with a specific weaponskill and give them specific bonus effects with other weaponskills.I think ranger weaponskills that interact with the pet also should get some improvements and trait interactions and the pet utilities (F2) need to be ramped up a notch.After that the way is open to specialise such profession more into these regions.