Demolisher's Amulet for open world. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Demolisher's Amulet for open world.

blokejoe.6590blokejoe.6590 Member ✭✭

As the title states, it would be amazing to have the Demolisher's Amulet as a stat set options, it is the counter to the Marauder Amulet. Which personally doesn't do much for my build as a Warrior or Guardian. Please, Devs add this to the next expansion or Living Story. Thanks.

Comments

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what stats does it give?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh hell no, it's bad enough with the other 4 stat armour.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    your crit chance is very low and so is your toughness. you be somewhere around 55% crit chance and your toughness should be no less than 3200. so it doesn't come close to it.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    isnt 3.2k armor a bit too high?

    i mean my guard, full cele just has around 3k total.

    what you need so much armor for?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @blokejoe.6590 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    your crit chance is very low and so is your toughness. you be somewhere around 55% crit chance and your toughness should be no less than 3200. so it doesn't come close to it.

    Since you are right about the crit chance for PvP (demolisher has 55% base) but laughably off on toughness (1560 base) I have no idea if that was a real response or some joke. Confusing toughness with armor isnt the case either since demolisher have zero vitality that adds to armor. If we are talking some weird conversion that doesnt make sense either, since PvE marauder is +650ish vitality vs PvP marauder at +560 vitality. Demolishers just shift that to toughness, so around 1650 toughness - nowhere near 3200.

    Since this is WvW, you can shift stats to get your 55% crit. Well, at least, since it literally impossible not to have 1000 extra stat points somewhere, unless you want to run around in greens or yellows just to kitten yourself to PvP levels.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    Wait, OP says it doesn't like vitality on it's glassy guardian.. 12khp and 3.2k armor forsrs?

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    This is false. Knights and cavalier both have a worse stat-spread than demolishers for most classes. 3 stat combos have ~9% less stats than a 4 stat-combos.

    Knights and cavalier both have precision OR ferocity as off-stat and power as secondary stat. Toughness as main stat. You drop power compared to marauder / demolisher mixes. You also drop precision OR ferocity compared to marauder / demolisher mixes for the same toughness value. You also lose stats overall.

    So while you can already "simulate" demolisher type armor by mixing gear, it's strictly WORSE than adding demolisher as an option. If cavalier / knights would lead to better optimization we'd still use those; but i'm certain demolisher would be used by minmaxers.

    I don't think it makes a huge difference, but please don't spread lies. I'm sure you can get more stats than a WvW demolisher amulet, but obviously when added to PvE / WvW it is available as "ascended 80 stats" rather than exotic 78 stats.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    This is false. Knights and cavalier both have a worse stat-spread than demolishers for most classes. 3 stat combos have ~9% less stats than a 4 stat-combos.

    Knights and cavalier both have precision OR ferocity as off-stat and power as secondary stat. Toughness as main stat. You drop power compared to marauder / demolisher mixes. You also drop precision OR ferocity compared to marauder / demolisher mixes for the same toughness value. You also lose stats overall.

    So while you can already "simulate" demolisher type armor by mixing gear, it's strictly WORSE than adding demolisher as an option. If cavalier / knights would lead to better optimization we'd still use those; but i'm certain demolisher would be used by minmaxers.

    I don't think it makes a huge difference, but please don't spread lies. I'm sure you can get more stats than a WvW demolisher amulet, but obviously when added to PvE / WvW it is available as "ascended 80 stats" rather than exotic 78 stats.

    For minmaxers everything not pure is always gonna be worse.

    I see it as people desperately using that extra 10% to even compete with hybrids.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭

    Captains is a better alternative than Knights and Cavalier for adding Toughness without impacting your direct damage. It beats both of those stats since it has a major Precision with a minor Power. Since it only is available for trinkets, it will only work if you don't want a large amount of toughness.

    I have to agree with op, it would be nice to have access to many of the PvP stats. Unfortunately, POF is only providing access to a bunch of oddball stats for PVE.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    This is false. Knights and cavalier both have a worse stat-spread than demolishers for most classes. 3 stat combos have ~9% less stats than a 4 stat-combos.

    Knights and cavalier both have precision OR ferocity as off-stat and power as secondary stat. Toughness as main stat. You drop power compared to marauder / demolisher mixes. You also drop precision OR ferocity compared to marauder / demolisher mixes for the same toughness value. You also lose stats overall.

    So while you can already "simulate" demolisher type armor by mixing gear, it's strictly WORSE than adding demolisher as an option. If cavalier / knights would lead to better optimization we'd still use those; but i'm certain demolisher would be used by minmaxers.

    I don't think it makes a huge difference, but please don't spread lies. I'm sure you can get more stats than a WvW demolisher amulet, but obviously when added to PvE / WvW it is available as "ascended 80 stats" rather than exotic 78 stats.

    For minmaxers everything not pure is always gonna be worse.

    I see it as people desperately using that extra 10% to even compete with hybrids.

    Both options are hybrid by definition. Either way optimized will be a hybrid mix of marauder, demolisher and possibly knights, captain or cavalier for optimization still.

    That doesn't change the fact that you claimed your hybrid is better when in reality it has less stats and / or a worse stat spread no matter how you see it.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

    There are a few other stat combos you can do with less loss in crit and negligable power/armor loss. Mixing assassains/zerk/knight I got
    2114 power
    55.81% crit chance
    2516 armor (light)
    188.13% crit dmg

    On a dps golem sure it will show compared to theoretical full demolisher, in practice in WvW it becomes completely irrelevant as there are so many other thing that play part in your actual success in combat. Hell even on nearly 3k armor a shatter mesmer can still insta-kill me, a rapid fire burst can do 3k a pop, a spellbreaker can do 8k on full counter alone and a backstab thief can down me in 2s. There is a reason most sane people ignore toughness. I'm not sane though. I play by my own experience and have ran the entire spectrum of 1000 to 2000 toughness to find an intermediary that fit my general playstyle.

    But I concede, the base stats (ignoring all additional stats) is not better than pure. It would be a few percent higher. Not nearly enough to make up for bad players or cause good players to win more than they would otherwise.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

    There are a few other stat combos you can do with less loss in crit and negligable power/armor loss. Mixing assassains/zerk/knight I got
    2114 power
    55.81% crit chance
    2516 armor (light)
    188.13% crit dmg

    On a dps golem sure it will show compared to theoretical full demolisher, in practice in WvW it becomes completely irrelevant as there are so many other thing that play part in your actual success in combat. Hell even on nearly 3k armor a shatter mesmer can still insta-kill me, a rapid fire burst can do 3k a pop, a spellbreaker can do 8k on full counter alone and a backstab thief can down me in 2s. There is a reason most sane people ignore toughness. I'm not sane though. I play by my own experience and have ran the entire spectrum of 1000 to 2000 toughness to find an intermediary that fit my general playstyle.

    But I concede, the base stats (ignoring all additional stats) is not better than pure. It would be a few percent higher. Not nearly enough to make up for bad players or cause good players to win more than they would otherwise.

    thank you for standing your ground, but also finally understanding that using a hybrid set up is nowhere close to using a full set of pure stat. i did mix up toughness with armour earlier.

  • @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

    thank you for putting this numbers together. > @Sovereign.1093 said:

    isnt 3.2k armor a bit too high?

    i mean my guard, full cele just has around 3k total.

    what you need so much armor for?

    direct damage reduction. Marauder helps you survive condition damage, why not one for direct damage.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blokejoe.6590 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

    There are a few other stat combos you can do with less loss in crit and negligable power/armor loss. Mixing assassains/zerk/knight I got
    2114 power
    55.81% crit chance
    2516 armor (light)
    188.13% crit dmg

    On a dps golem sure it will show compared to theoretical full demolisher, in practice in WvW it becomes completely irrelevant as there are so many other thing that play part in your actual success in combat. Hell even on nearly 3k armor a shatter mesmer can still insta-kill me, a rapid fire burst can do 3k a pop, a spellbreaker can do 8k on full counter alone and a backstab thief can down me in 2s. There is a reason most sane people ignore toughness. I'm not sane though. I play by my own experience and have ran the entire spectrum of 1000 to 2000 toughness to find an intermediary that fit my general playstyle.

    But I concede, the base stats (ignoring all additional stats) is not better than pure. It would be a few percent higher. Not nearly enough to make up for bad players or cause good players to win more than they would otherwise.

    thank you for standing your ground, but also finally understanding that using a hybrid set up is nowhere close to using a full set of pure stat. i did mix up toughness with armour earlier.

    Not sure I understood that since I consider coming within 10% fairly close (negligable in 95% of fights), not "nowhere close". Plus I would also consider pure toughness in the low range and no vitality a very poor choice in WvW on pretty much anything except maybe warrior. Even dropping like 5% crit and 100ish power or something in exchange for 300-400ish vitality (ie dump in marauders instead of zerker/assassain in the try-to-reach-demolisher combo example) could be a fight winning advantage.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blokejoe.6590 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    what stats does it give?

    Power prec tough fero which is incredibly simple to achieve in WvW since we got cavalier and knights to achieve just those combos. My bruiser mirage runs "demolisher", in a sense - ~2000 power, ~30%crit, ~1800 toughness, ~200% crit dmg. Got some minor vitality, condi dmg and healing power as well so its a hybrid but you can balance it however you want.

    oh nice would be nice combine that with mara.

    Well of course you can do that. Here's my stats (buffed by a keep so +100 (no presence though), 25 bl and utility/dodge food):

    So basicly, we dont need demolishers because WvW can already do much, much better lol.

    Wrong!

    Demolisher in WvW would give you:
    2173 power
    60,86% crit chance
    2600 armor (light armor class)
    192,2% crit damage

    There is not a single stat combination available that can achieve this!

    The closest way to get this atm. is a mix of berserker (weapon, armor, backpack) and knights (trinkets):
    2178 power
    50,76% crit chance
    2596 armor (light armor class)
    185,67% crit damage

    As you can see you are losing 10% crit chance and 6,5% crit damage which is definitely noticeable.

    thank you for putting this numbers together. > @Sovereign.1093 said:

    isnt 3.2k armor a bit too high?

    i mean my guard, full cele just has around 3k total.

    what you need so much armor for?

    direct damage reduction. Marauder helps you survive condition damage, why not one for direct damage.

    crit by passes armor though. and so vit > armor in your case as mes. but is ok, if that build gets you wins, all for it.

    i do remember the cav warrior, who could handle 5 to 7 unskilled players. but was prior to condi buff.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • I believe that critical damage is a damage multiplier only and does not bypass armor. Vitality is still the better attribute even against direct damage. So Marauders, Valkyrie, Soldiers, and Sentinels are better than any of the toughness only stats. This is just comparing direct damage vs your ability to survive so it doesn't account for dodges, immunity, healing, condition damage, etc. I'm sure theres exceptions depending on your profession.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I believe that critical damage is a damage multiplier only and does not bypass armor. Vitality is still the better attribute even against direct damage. So Marauders, Valkyrie, Soldiers, and Sentinels are better than any of the toughness only stats. This is just comparing direct damage vs your ability to survive so it doesn't account for dodges, immunity, healing, condition damage, etc. I'm sure theres exceptions depending on your profession.

    thoughness can be better than vitality for direct damage when you factor in healing. because your heals would make up for more % of the damage taken.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    at op, have tried pure marauder?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I believe that critical damage is a damage multiplier only and does not bypass armor. Vitality is still the better attribute even against direct damage. So Marauders, Valkyrie, Soldiers, and Sentinels are better than any of the toughness only stats. This is just comparing direct damage vs your ability to survive so it doesn't account for dodges, immunity, healing, condition damage, etc. I'm sure theres exceptions depending on your profession.

    Play a reaper and fight a power rev thief soulbeast guardian warrior holo... on full marauder and on full demolisher and you will never again state that vitality is better than toughness in general.

    Also think about healing! I have done the math dozens of times in this forum: The less damage you take, the less healing you need to recover, the more effective your healing becomes. The only exception would be if you would have an excessive healing source that caps even a large health pool everytime it heals. Then vita would indeed be better as it would protect you against direct and condi damage at once. But there is no such excessive healing source, because ANet knows this would be stupid (=counter intuitive) and render the whole toughness stat useless.

    Talking about exceptions where marauder is without a doubt better than demolisher. There are exactly 4:

    • you play thief (11k HP)
    • you play ele (11k HP)
    • you play guardian (11k HP)
    • you duell a trailblazer/dire build (deals no direct damage at all)
  • @Sovereign.1093 said:
    at op, have tried pure marauder?

    I have done numerous test with toughness and vitality. As a warrior, enduring condition dmg is easy pop resistance done, the warrior is susceptible to direct dmg without endure pain.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blokejoe.6590 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    at op, have tried pure marauder?

    I have done numerous test with toughness and vitality. As a warrior, enduring condition dmg is easy pop resistance done, the warrior is susceptible to direct dmg without endure pain.

    warrior has a big health pool and is pretty good at self survival. i asked since i thought you were building a mes.

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  • @KrHome.1920 said:
    Talking about exceptions where marauder is without a doubt better than demolisher. There are exactly 4:

    • you play thief (11k HP)
    • you play ele (11k HP)
    • you play guardian (11k HP)
    • you duell a trailblazer/dire build (deals no direct damage at all)

    Those are just the obvious situations where Marauders is better and there are plenty more where Marauders will be the better choice than Demolishers. You can't pick your opponents so generally it is much better to invest in Vitality. It absorbs more damage, works against direct damage and conditions, and doesn't have diminishing returns on investment. There are exceptions to this rule, but in most cases Vitality is the better choice.

    I feel like investing fully in toughness is much more of a niche choice and only a few professions and builds can get away with it. I'm not saying toughness should be avoided. I would certainly use Demolishers if it was available, but I would usually invest more heavily in Vitality.

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  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would love to see this in the pve / wvw environment.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't believe crits ignore armor, it's just the effective power used in that hit.

    i.e. 2500 power with 200% crit is equal to 5000 power. Versus a 2000 armor target you get a damage multiplier of 2.6/2 = 1.3x compared to tooltip , a critical of 200% would be 2.6x tooltip.

    Demolisher's pieces (as opposed to full set) would be ok if revenants running CoR and weaver eles became more rampant but it's a condi meta (scourge + firebrand are popular). The extra health is also better for reapers using shroud.

    You'd trade +633 vitality on a full set for +633 toughness.

    Right now marauder's has about 15% less power before runes (8% less when accounting for power rune) but the larger difference is the loss of ferocity (Berserker/Valkyrie mixes have +960 ferocity instead of +633 , is about 21% crit damage). Without traits, full zerker + scholar rune is 220% critical hit while marauder+scholar would be ~200%.

    For eles, guardians not running Force of will +300 vitality, thieves, and such I think the majority of armor should prioritize vitality.

    If demolisher's were put in, it would likely be better to run a few pieces (i.e. +300 armor worth for heavy such as all trinkets + backpiece) in place of soldier's or valkyrie, with the rest marauder's (~15K HP).

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    Do we really need more powercreep 4 stat armors? Celestial giving some of each stat is fine because it's difficult to focus all extra statpoints you get in a direction. These 4 stat armors ruined mixing different prefixes to achieve the stat spread you want because the "you loose stats" argument always comes up. It is my personal opinion that 4 stat armors should give the same total stat points as 3 stat armor.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    For ascended armor it's : 439 , 315 , 315 for 3 stats = 1069 total and for 4-stat it's 376 , 376 , 207 , 207 = total 1166. Maybe what you're proposing is 350,350, 185, 185 for that instance? Or an outright reduction of minor stats only such as 376, 376 , 159, 159 ?

    For weapons it is 251 , 179 , 179 = 609 total and for 4-stat weapons it is 215 , 215 , 118 ,118 = 666 total. So it would be 205 , 205, 100, 100? Or would it be 215,215, 90, 90?

    Current Total 3 stat major stat = 690 , minor = 494

    Current Total 4 stat major stats = 591 , minor = 325 ; under your proposal it would be around 555 and 285 (otherwise an outright reduction of minor stats to 249)

    A total loss of just under 100 power would be incurred right now.

    • at 15pts of ferocity per 1% critical = 11% critical hit difference from weapons and armor

    At 15 pts of expertise per 1% condition duration , it's +20% condition duration

    For power builds the loss of the power plus the loss of ferocity is a bigger hit than on condi (trailblazer / viper) , especially due to condition duration (300 minor stat = easily +20% from expertise). If anything it highlights how broken condi damage is as far as stats because it only relies on 2 (condition damage, expertise) rather than 3 things (power , precision, ferocity).

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