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I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)


Clyan.1593

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@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

Sigh. Again with this? Read what I actually wrote about the spotlight stealing. It has nothing to do with what Trahearne does at all. It is about a shift in narrative focus not character actions. Once he enters the scene it ceases to be the story of your character; he/she gets shoved into the role of a supporting character and observer to Tree Jebus fulfilling his destiny. This stands in stark contrast to earlier “chapters” having been all about your character’s origins and rise to power/fame.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

You lost me at not a Mary Sue in the least.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

Sigh.
Again
with this? Read what I
actually
wrote about the spotlight stealing. It has nothing to do with what Trahearne does at all. It is about a
shift in narrative focus
not
character actions
. Once he enters the scene it ceases to be the story of your character; he/she gets shoved into the role of a supporting character and observer to Tree Jebus fulfilling his destiny. This stands in stark contrast to earlier “chapters” having been all about your character’s origins and rise to power/fame.

Firstly, you never mentioned anything about "a shift in narrative focus" in any of your posts.

Secondly, no, it's still a story about your character. I mean, the story from Claw Island onward is about you avenging your mentor and slaying an Elder Dragon, with the support of Trahearne. It is not about Trahearne slaying an Elder Dragon with your support.

Trahearne plays the support role, you're the one being the badass hero who slays the mighty champions, Mouths, and Eyes. You're the one who faces down the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan. Trahearne may be higher ranked than you, and he may have the ritual to cleanse Orr, but in the end he's just a patsy to your deeds and actions. Without the PC, Trahearne would have failed, fallen to depression, and given up.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

You lost me at not a Mary Sue in the least.

A Mary Sue is a nigh flawless character who often succeeds where the main character (or in the case of fan fiction, where the non-original characters) fail despite no reason for either the others' failure or the Mary Sue character's success.

Scarlet Briar was a Mary Sue character because she had an impossibly grand background (studied under nearly all races and succeeded better than them), and whenever someone tried to punish her she got away ultimately scotch free. That's almost the very definition of a Mary Sue character.

Trahearne doesn't have a grandios background - yes, he's Firstborn and respected among orders for his history, but that respect as we see when non-sylvari first meet (as well as when we're forming the pact) him has a pretty low limit. He suffers from depression and self-doubt, which is actually a pretty decent character flaw to balance out the fact he's a powerful necromancer and knowledgeable about Orr and risen. He doesn't just get to snap his proverbial fingers and solve whatever problem comes his way (unlike Scarlet), he has to actually work towards them.

Just because he's a character you think steals the spotlight once introduced, doesn't mean he actually does, and doesn't mean that he's a Mary Sue character just because you dislike him.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

Sigh.
Again
with this? Read what I
actually
wrote about the spotlight stealing. It has nothing to do with what Trahearne does at all. It is about a
shift in narrative focus
not
character actions
. Once he enters the scene it ceases to be the story of your character; he/she gets shoved into the role of a supporting character and observer to Tree Jebus fulfilling his destiny. This stands in stark contrast to earlier “chapters” having been all about your character’s origins and rise to power/fame.

Firstly, you never mentioned anything about "a shift in narrative focus" in any of your posts.

Secondly, no, it's still a story about your character. I mean, the story from Claw Island onward is about you avenging your mentor and slaying an Elder Dragon, with the support of Trahearne. It is
not
about Trahearne slaying an Elder Dragon with your support.

Trahearne plays the support role, you're the one being the kitten hero who slays the mighty champions, Mouths, and Eyes. You're the one who faces down the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan. Trahearne may be higher ranked than you, and he may have the ritual to cleanse Orr, but in the end he's just a patsy to your deeds and actions. Without the PC, Trahearne would have failed, fallen to depression, and given up.

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

Trahearne wasn't a mary sue in the least, and he certainly never stole the PC's credit. Hell, he constantly praised the PC. Just because he became the Marshal doesn't mean he stole credit or spotlight.

Name one specific instance where he stole credit. I've asked others who are so adamant that he stole credit and spotlight time, but they couldn't give a proper answer because the few answers they gave, in that same situation he credited and praised the PC for a job well done.

You lost me at not a Mary Sue in the least.

A Mary Sue is a nigh flawless character who often succeeds where the main character (or in the case of fan fiction, where the non-original characters) fail despite no reason for either the others' failure or the Mary Sue character's success.

Scarlet Briar was a Mary Sue character because she had an impossibly grand background (studied under nearly all races and succeeded better than them), and whenever someone tried to punish her she got away ultimately scotch free. That's almost the very definition of a Mary Sue character.

Trahearne doesn't have a grandios background - yes, he's Firstborn and respected among orders for his history, but that respect as we see when non-sylvari first meet (as well as when we're forming the pact) him has a pretty low limit. He suffers from depression and self-doubt, which is actually a pretty decent character flaw to balance out the fact he's a powerful necromancer and knowledgeable about Orr and risen. He doesn't just get to snap his proverbial fingers and solve whatever problem comes his way (unlike Scarlet), he has to actually work towards them.

Just because he's a character you
think
steals the spotlight once introduced, doesn't mean he actually does, and doesn't mean that he's a Mary Sue character just because you dislike him.

Scarlet being a more egregious example doesn't make Trahearne not one. He still pulls talents out if nowhere, is inexplicably well liked and flat as a character. The Destiny and sword business only cement this. Just because you like him doesn't make him not a Mary Sue, sorry.

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@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Scarlet being a more egregious example doesn't make Trahearne not one. He still pulls talents out if nowhere, is inexplicably well liked and flat as a character. The Destiny and sword business only cement this. Just because you like him doesn't make him not a Mary Sue, sorry.

What talents does he pull "out of nowhere"? The only examples I can think of would be summoning multiple flesh golems, but he was long established to be a powerful necromancer at that point (and strengthened by Caladbolg, which was also established before then), or the ritual to cleanse orr, which similarly was very long established. Nothing out of nowhere.

And well liked? Yes, that is exactly why he had to prove himself to the Orders despite being respected by them. Unlike Scarlet, who's short story shows people taking a liking to her for no god damned reason, Trahearne's respect came from spending 20 years on and off visiting one of the most dangerous places in the world (at the time). His backstory actually has reason for him being liked, just like the members of Destiny's Edge. Or are they Mary Sues too in your view?

That's like proclaiming Deckard Cain from Diablo is a Mary Sue character because he knows a bunch of stuff about the Prime Evils because he spent his whole life studying demonology.

That's not a Mary Sue.

Flat character? Well, his voice sure is. But I wouldn't say that his character is. He's actually a well rounded character if you can ignore that annoying voicing.

And his "destiny" doesn't make a Mary Sue. If that was true, then nearly every "chosen one" character in the history of fiction (famous examples: Anakin Skywalker, Dragon Age: Origins PC, Shepard from Mass Effect, and thousands more) would be considered a Mary Sue. That's a trope. Very different. And being gifted a legendary weapon also doesn't make a Mary Sue - again, that'd be a trope that can date back to folklore like King Arthur and Excalibur.

And I never said I liked Trahearne; in fact, I dislike him, largely due to his super flat voicing. I just said he isn't a Mary Sue. So stop trying to shoving words into my mouth.

If you're going to repeatedly proclaim Trahearne is a Mary Sue, how about providing specific examples? Go on, I'll wait.

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Would be very weird our character become a sort of a "king" of a big military pact of 3 orders and still continuing "raiding" places instead of give orders to their soldiers. So Trehearne come in hand. Thats why we are commander and he become the Marshal.

For me the confusion begins when the commander unifies the orders, so for some it is not clear if our role was to be a kind of "politician" or an adventurer.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Scarlet being a more egregious example doesn't make Trahearne not one. He still pulls talents out if nowhere, is inexplicably well liked and flat as a character. The Destiny and sword business only cement this. Just because you like him doesn't make him not a Mary Sue, sorry.

What talents does he pull "out of nowhere"? The only examples I can think of would be summoning multiple flesh golems, but he was long established to be a powerful necromancer at that point (and strengthened by Caladbolg, which was also established before then), or the ritual to cleanse orr, which similarly was very long established. Nothing out of nowhere.

And well liked? Yes, that is exactly why he had to prove himself to the Orders despite being respected by them. Unlike Scarlet, who's short story shows people taking a liking to her
for no god damned reason
, Trahearne's respect came from
spending 20 years
on and off visiting one of the most dangerous places in the world (at the time). His backstory actually has reason for him being liked, just like the members of Destiny's Edge. Or are they Mary Sues too in your view?

That's like proclaiming Deckard Cain from Diablo is a Mary Sue character because he knows a bunch of stuff about the Prime Evils because he spent his whole life studying demonology.

That's not a Mary Sue.

Flat character? Well, his voice sure is. But I wouldn't say that his character is. He's actually a well rounded character if you can ignore that annoying voicing.

And his "destiny" doesn't make a Mary Sue. If that was true, then nearly every "chosen one" character in the history of fiction (famous examples: Anakin Skywalker, Dragon Age: Origins PC, Shepard from Mass Effect, and thousands more) would be considered a Mary Sue. That's a
trope.
Very different. And being gifted a legendary weapon also doesn't make a Mary Sue - again, that'd be a trope that can date back to folklore like King Arthur and Excalibur.

And I never said I liked Trahearne; in fact, I dislike him, largely due to his super flat voicing. I just said he isn't a Mary Sue. So stop trying to shoving words into my mouth.

If you're going to repeatedly proclaim Trahearne is a Mary Sue, how about
providing specific examples
? Go on, I'll wait.

Leading an army while having only experience in scholarly pursuits, there an example of a skill that isn't explained. His flaws are all swept under the table and come off as insignificant, single handedly purifying an entire continent... Then there's stuff like again, the convenience of somehow having all the respect of the orders already before he just poofs in. Being some kind of "chosen one" is something I've always considered poor writing, and tacking it on to everything else is just further pushing him into Mary Sue territory. I don't care if you like him, he's still a Mary Sue and none of your unbased claims will change that duder.

The way he pulls the spotlight onto himself us also a sign of a Mary Sue, despite how much you're in denial about that fact. A lot of this comes in my issues with Sylvari as a whole though, he's only actually in his mid 20s and has accomplished all this, I don't give a single damn about the Sylvari's "born fully grown" garbage, that isn't how mental development works, and it's goddamn stupid. Trahearne and later Scarlet are an amalgamation of the issues with the Sylvari race as a whole and don't even try to say their back story as dragon minions somehow excuses this. I'm far from the only one who thinks these things about Trahearne, and beliefs like that don't just come from thin air.

Anet knew they messed up with him and that's why he was killed off, deal with it.

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Uff, I started quite the argument I see.

Well, I don't think much of terms like "mary sue" and stuff alike. Those are just words, and you can put them almost everywhere in fiction. It mostly comes down to you liking or not liking a character. Throwing those words around like it means much shows a lack of understanding why you really hate something or someone.

I think your personal story is your personal story, no matter the circumstances. There might be someone else beside you getting credit for your victory, but it's still your personal story. Just like in your real life. You're not the star there all the time either, in fact, you're never really the star. And yet it's still your life, your personal story.

Trahearne's voice acting was terrible, I agree. But even if there had been aspects about him one cannot enjoy or like, if you find satisfaction in killing off a fictional character because he was badly implemented into the story, then maybe you just have lost track of the real issue and let yourself get too emotional.

That said I still think the community killed him, and not the story / mordremoth. And that's really sad, because it means the writers had to go out of their way and satisfy the community by their own terms. As if WE had written the story based on our personal feelings. That's a bitter taste.

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@"Eekasqueak.7850"I don't plan to get in the way, but I would like to clarify something:

Leading an army while having only experience in scholarly pursuits, there an example of a skill that isn't explained. His flaws are all swept under the table and come off as insignificant, single handedly purifying an entire continent... Then there's stuff like again, the convenience of somehow having all the respect of the orders already before he just poofs in. Being some kind of "chosen one" is something I've always considered poor writing, and tacking it on to everything else is just further pushing him into Mary Sue territory. I don't care if you like him, he's still a Mary Sue and none of your unbased claims will change that duder.

Trahearne did not purify the continent of Orr. He used Caladbolg to purifiy a wellspring named "The Source of Orr" ...AKA the Artesian Waters. We know from the lore that this is a place of power unlike any other in Tyria. Zhaitan empowered The Soveriegn Eye in that spring to maintain the magic that carried his necrotic energy to all areas in Orr. Even with Zhaitan's lieutenant slain, and the magic corrupting the waters nullified, Orr remains corrupt until the last of the undead dragon's energy is mitigated in the land. Though the areas we explored during the original personal story remain visually locked in the year 1325AE, the process is visible in season 3 where Siren's Landing is introduced. Even there in 1330AE we can still see how much of Zhaitan's influence still creeps through the soil.

While we have been off saving the world from other threats, the narrative of Orr (and Siren's Landing) has been about reclamation of the land from the lesser sources of the dragon's corruption, which is a feasible goal now that the Source of Orr has been cleansed.

Oh, and the reason @"Konig Des Todes.2086" version of events makes no sense to you is due to your working definition of "Mary Sue" being suitably and entirely dissimilar. You are correct about Trahearne, but the scope of your correctness ends at the boundary of your perspective. Until you find common understanding you'll have to agree to disagree with him. (and a number of others here)

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@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

This, he Aragorned me from my moment of glory, his death was too easy, I would have chopped, burnt and grilled meat on top of his corpse.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Scarlet being a more egregious example doesn't make Trahearne not one. He still pulls talents out if nowhere, is inexplicably well liked and flat as a character. The Destiny and sword business only cement this. Just because you like him doesn't make him not a Mary Sue, sorry.

What talents does he pull "out of nowhere"? The only examples I can think of would be summoning multiple flesh golems, but he was long established to be a powerful necromancer at that point (and strengthened by Caladbolg, which was also established before then), or the ritual to cleanse orr, which similarly was very long established. Nothing out of nowhere.

And well liked? Yes, that is exactly why he had to prove himself to the Orders despite being respected by them. Unlike Scarlet, who's short story shows people taking a liking to her
for no god damned reason
, Trahearne's respect came from
spending 20 years
on and off visiting one of the most dangerous places in the world (at the time). His backstory actually has reason for him being liked, just like the members of Destiny's Edge. Or are they Mary Sues too in your view?

That's like proclaiming Deckard Cain from Diablo is a Mary Sue character because he knows a bunch of stuff about the Prime Evils because he spent his whole life studying demonology.

That's not a Mary Sue.

Flat character? Well, his voice sure is. But I wouldn't say that his character is. He's actually a well rounded character if you can ignore that annoying voicing.

And his "destiny" doesn't make a Mary Sue. If that was true, then nearly every "chosen one" character in the history of fiction (famous examples: Anakin Skywalker, Dragon Age: Origins PC, Shepard from Mass Effect, and thousands more) would be considered a Mary Sue. That's a
trope.
Very different. And being gifted a legendary weapon also doesn't make a Mary Sue - again, that'd be a trope that can date back to folklore like King Arthur and Excalibur.

And I never said I liked Trahearne; in fact, I dislike him, largely due to his super flat voicing. I just said he isn't a Mary Sue. So stop trying to shoving words into my mouth.

If you're going to repeatedly proclaim Trahearne is a Mary Sue, how about
providing specific examples
? Go on, I'll wait.

Leading an army while having only experience in scholarly pursuits, there an example of a skill that isn't explained. His flaws are all swept under the table and come off as insignificant, single handedly purifying an entire continent... Then there's stuff like again, the convenience of somehow having all the respect of the orders already before he just poofs in. Being some kind of "chosen one" is something I've always considered poor writing, and tacking it on to everything else is just further pushing him into Mary Sue territory. I don't care if you like him, he's still a Mary Sue and none of your unbased claims will change that duder.

The way he pulls the spotlight onto himself us also a sign of a Mary Sue, despite how much you're in denial about that fact. A lot of this comes in my issues with Sylvari as a whole though, he's only actually in his mid 20s and has accomplished all this, I don't give a single kitten about the Sylvari's "born fully grown" garbage, that isn't how mental development works, and it's kitten stupid. Trahearne and later Scarlet are an amalgamation of the issues with the Sylvari race as a whole and don't even try to say their back story as dragon minions somehow excuses this. I'm far from the only one who thinks these things about Trahearne, and beliefs like that don't just come from thin air.

Anet knew they messed up with him and that's why he was killed off, deal with it.

If you'll notice, he's not a very good leader of the Pact. Yes, he puts on a bravado in front of the troops, but when it comes to the big decisions, he'll pull you aside and ask for your opinion. I'd say that shows a lack of confidence. As for being well-liked, I think he's more respected by the various orders, knowing he already has the authority from being a Firstborn and spending most of his life learning what he could of newly-risen Orr. That doesn't mean they like him, but they are more willing to take orders from him than from the other two Orders.

As for your mental development issue, I point you to most creatures out in the wild. Giraffes learn to walk within seconds of being born, as do horses. Animals learn a lot faster than we humans do. Now, sylvari weren't meant to be the social creatures they are today, so of course they know how to fight as soon as their pod opens. It's the rest of the social niceties they have trouble with. I'm sorry you don't like the race, but they are interesting socially, and there are many who do like them.

I think we all agree there were many missteps with Trahearne, but he was far from unsalvageable. At the same time, I almost feel it fitting that his final act was aiding us in killing Mordremoth and then giving his own life to ensure he is fully gone. I'm pretty sure he would have always been killed in order to stop the jungle dragon, but maybe we could've gotten one more Pact adventure out of him if he weren't so hated? Hard to say at this point.

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Trahearne was initially far from well-liked by the general public. He was respected by the world leaders, sure, but he had very few friends. I remember being quite surprised how disrespectful the younger sylvari were, given how much they usually care about firstborn status. There was a lot of gossiping and distrust going on in his earlier chapters. I doubt that he could have founded and kept the Pact without the PC.I liked his development up to LS2. He really did become a good general and in LS2 he does not rely on the PC so much anymore. He actually gets things done by himself. Sure, those things backfire horribly, but that's another issue. At least he had some character development.

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I could see why Trahearne, surviving and learning in Orr, would have the respect of the Priory. But not so much the other two -- he didn't go around slaughtering enough Dragon minions to earn the respect of the Vigil, and he never seemed to have the cunning that might earn him the respect of the Order of Whispers.

Now, maybe it would have worked better if your character saw the defeat at Claw Island and been the first to realize the Orders need to work together. You consult with your mentor in Destiny's Edge, who basically advises you to pull a My Fair Lady with Trahearne, who is known to the Orders but not affiliated, (under guidance from the other DE characters), and basically manufacture a reputation for him that will let him form the Pact. It would actually involve them more in the PS, and it would explain why people are willing to follow Trahearne. It might even let players see the emergence of leadership qualities (or, re-emergence, if they were lost due to self-doubt from some backstory screwup) rather than just pulling them out of thin air.

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Order of Whispers:

He helped to overthrow the former leader. I'm not quite sure, I guess the former leader was corrupted by one of the dragons or something like that? Anyhow, that was the reason for the order.

 

I like your alternative scenario though. :) It also reduces the influence of the Pale Tree greatly, which is a definite plus. For non-sylvari PCs I find it quite hard to just go along with seemingly random prophecies and suggestions from the Tree at that point.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being the main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

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@deatine.2498 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of
my
personal story all about
him
, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being
the
main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

This is the same reason that Kormir was the spear Marshall and became a goddess. The player could never obtain godhood, not in a mmo franchise.

Trahearne plays pretty much the same role here. The thing is though, Trahearne is always asking for advice from the Commander, who honestly doesn’t have much more experience then Trahearne.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Leading an army while having only experience in scholarly pursuits, there an example of a skill that isn't explained.A job that he does pretty poorly overall, and constantly refers to his four highest advisors (including the PC!) just like any inexperienced medieval king or adviser put in charge of an army that isn't so full of himself that gets his army destroyed.

So, false.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:His flaws are all swept under the table and come off as insignificant,They're continuously played to the very end of Victory or Death... We don't see them very much when we meet him again in Season 2, and he seems more general-y than scholarly, but he still performed some fatal tactical errors when not taking advisers' aide (which led to the Pact's destruction).

Still swept under the table?

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:single handedly purifying an entire continent...For starters, Orr isn't even a continent, but a nation; more importantly, though, as is hammered into us during Siren's Landing, after Trahearne's initial ritual (which we knew then and there could be undone and was just the beginning of things), dozens of sylvari have been working to further the purification of Orr alongside the ghosts trapped within the Eyes of Zhaitan.

So, false.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Then there's stuff like again, the convenience of somehow having all the respect of the orders already before he just poofs in. Being some kind of "chosen one" is something I've always considered poor writing, and tacking it on to everything else is just further pushing him into Mary Sue territory. I don't care if you like him, he's still a Mary Sue and none of your unbased claims will change that duder.

Having a background of respect doesn't make one a Mary Sue. By this very argument, Rytlock is a Mary Sue. Eir is a Mary Sue. Zojja is a Mary Sue. Logan is a Mary Sue. Caithe is a Mary Sue. Why? Because they have backgrounds of respect, are each the most iconic figure of their species, and have some sort of special gear or attribute that makes them stand out above the rest even despite their backgrounds.

These are not qualities of a Mary Sue. I think you need to look up what the definition of Mary Sue is.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:The way he pulls the spotlight onto himself us also a sign of a Mary Sue, despite how much you're in denial about that fact.

Tell me one case where he "pulls the spotlight onto himself". Hell, even @Oglaf.1074 is now denying he does such a thing (despite his original posts stating that he did, ironic).

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:he's only actually in his mid 20s and has accomplished all this, I don't give a single kitten about the Sylvari's "born fully grown" garbage, that isn't how mental development works, and it's kitten stupid.

It actually is how mental development works for magical beings called sylvari; their mental development occurs in the Dream of Dreams, before they awaken and are "born". Technically speaking, if we go by mental development, the Firstborn are not 23 years old by the time of the PS but instead probably more like 30 if not older (we do not know how long their consciousness - or any sylvari's consciousness for that matter - exists in the Dream before awakening).

And at that, Logan, Rytlock, and Zojja are both in their mid/late 20s and they're just as accomplished if not moreso than Trahearne during the PS (EoD makes Logan and Rytlock to sound like they're somewhere around 19-23 and 5 years pass, while Zojja is a bit younger, sounding more like 16/17). Hell, by this point so is Braham, he's only 17 when we meet him in 1326 and it's been 5 years since then now. He's 21 and he's felled an Elder Dragon and cracked the uncrackable tooth of Jormag with a special bow of his mother imbued with ancient jotun magic. Is he, too, a Mary Sue?

Is every major character just a Mary Sue to you, because they're important figures or something? Because they're above the average character? Is that what "Mary Sue" is to you? Because it sure as heck sounds like it.

Every complaint you've tossed towards Trahearne is either blatantly false or can be attributed to nearly every major character in every piece of fiction across the scope of fiction, except those that focus on underdogs who remain underdogs.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:I'm far from the only one who thinks these things about Trahearne, and beliefs like that don't just come from thin air.

Like I said, he may be a well designed character, but he was poorly executed. That's where people's complaints come from - the execution. And ultimately, many, like you, mistaken this poor execution for "Mary Suedom" or something similar, because you have an apparent gross misunderstanding of what a Mary Sue is.

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I never cared about being the "chosen snowflake", I regarded Trahearne just a comrade in arms. if there is something that I like about Personal History that is very militaristic tone. I suspect that I get sick of being the "choosen one", because I played the Dragon Age Inquisition before going to gw2.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Leading an army while having only experience in scholarly pursuits, there an example of a skill that isn't explained.A job that he does pretty poorly overall, and constantly refers to his four highest advisors (including the PC!) just like any inexperienced medieval king or adviser put in charge of an army that isn't so full of himself that gets his army destroyed.

So, false.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:His flaws are all swept under the table and come off as insignificant,They're continuously played to the very end of Victory or Death... We don't see them very much when we meet him again in Season 2, and he seems more general-y than scholarly, but he still performed some fatal tactical errors when not taking advisers' aide (which led to the Pact's destruction).

Still swept under the table?

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:single handedly purifying an entire continent...For starters, Orr isn't even a continent, but a nation; more importantly, though, as is hammered into us during Siren's Landing, after Trahearne's initial ritual (which we knew then and there could be undone and was just the beginning of things), dozens of sylvari have been working to further the purification of Orr alongside the ghosts trapped within the Eyes of Zhaitan.

So, false.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Then there's stuff like again, the convenience of somehow having all the respect of the orders already before he just poofs in. Being some kind of "chosen one" is something I've always considered poor writing, and tacking it on to everything else is just further pushing him into Mary Sue territory. I don't care if you like him, he's still a Mary Sue and none of your unbased claims will change that duder.

Having a background of respect doesn't make one a Mary Sue. By this very argument, Rytlock is a Mary Sue. Eir is a Mary Sue. Zojja is a Mary Sue. Logan is a Mary Sue. Caithe is a Mary Sue. Why? Because they have backgrounds of respect, are each the most iconic figure of their species, and have some sort of special gear or attribute that makes them stand out above the rest even despite their backgrounds.

These are not qualities of a Mary Sue. I think you need to look up what the definition of Mary Sue is.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:The way he pulls the spotlight onto himself us also a sign of a Mary Sue, despite how much you're in denial about that fact.

Tell me
one
case where he "pulls the spotlight onto himself". Hell, even @Oglaf.1074 is now denying he does such a thing (despite his original posts stating that he did, ironic).

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:he's only actually in his mid 20s and has accomplished all this, I don't give a single kitten about the Sylvari's "born fully grown" garbage, that isn't how mental development works, and it's kitten stupid.

It actually is how mental development works for magical beings called sylvari; their mental development occurs in the Dream of Dreams, before they awaken and are "born". Technically speaking, if we go by mental development, the Firstborn are not 23 years old by the time of the PS but instead probably more like 30 if not older (we do not know how long their consciousness - or any sylvari's consciousness for that matter - exists in the Dream before awakening).

And at that, Logan, Rytlock, and Zojja are both in their mid/late 20s and they're just as accomplished if not moreso than Trahearne during the PS (EoD makes Logan and Rytlock to sound like they're somewhere around 19-23 and 5 years pass, while Zojja is a bit younger, sounding more like 16/17). Hell, by this point so is Braham, he's only 17 when we meet him in 1326 and it's been 5 years since then now. He's 21 and he's felled an Elder Dragon and cracked the uncrackable tooth of Jormag with a special bow of his mother imbued with ancient jotun magic. Is he, too, a Mary Sue?

Is every major character just a Mary Sue to you, because they're important figures or something? Because they're above the average character? Is that what "Mary Sue" is to you? Because it sure as heck sounds like it.

Every complaint you've tossed towards Trahearne is either blatantly false or can be attributed to nearly every major character in every piece of fiction across the scope of fiction, except those that focus on underdogs who remain underdogs.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:I'm far from the only one who thinks these things about Trahearne, and beliefs like that don't just come from thin air.

Like I said, he may be a well designed character, but he was poorly executed. That's where people's complaints come from - the execution. And ultimately, many, like you, mistaken this poor execution for "Mary Suedom" or something similar, because you have an apparent gross misunderstanding of what a Mary Sue is.

If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

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