I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

Trahearne praised the PC all the time. I did not get the hate.

Did Claw Island with a new character last night. Yeah, Trahearne talks a lot. And then it hit me:

he is extremely lonely. He talks a lot because the PC is the only one listening and he has to get a lot of stuff off his chest.

Poor guy. He was always nice, he always praised and lauded the PC. When he was not sure what to do, he asked the experts: that is extremely good leadership.

And all he got was hatred :/

[Tyson.5160]

Haters gonna hate.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing"

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

[Tyson.5160]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

[Diak Atoli.2085]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

Shh! It's just getting good!

Popcorn, anyone?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

I gave plenty of examples, doesn't mean I can't say the rebuttals to my examples are valid ones... Which is exactly what I said?

His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

[Oglaf.1074]

@deatine.2498 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of

my

personal story all about

him

, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being

the

main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

Which is fine and dandy in general. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very personal story of your character. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be your story from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

Especially with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

[perilisk.1874]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Like I said, he may be a well designed character, but he was poorly executed. That's where people's complaints come from - the execution. And ultimately, many, like you, mistaken this poor execution for "Mary Suedom" or something similar, because you have an apparent gross misunderstanding of what a Mary Sue is.

Poor execution is basically what distinguishes a Mary Sue from a character that is legitimately awesome.

[Tyson.5160]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@deatine.2498 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of

my

personal story all about

him

, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being

the

main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

Which is fine and dandy

in general

. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very

personal story of your character

. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be

your story

from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

Especially

with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

So you would have prefer yourself to be the Pact Marshall and send Trehearne to go fight Zhaitan?

[Tyson.5160]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

I gave plenty of examples, doesn't mean I can't say the rebuttals to my examples are valid ones... Which is exactly what I said?

His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

Yeah, but a Mary Sue is more like someone who is gifted with a wide variety of skills to the extreme. Trahearne doesn’t fit this definition. He is a necromancer, probably because of how much he studied Orr. He makes multiple trips to Orr to study the Risen and has been for many years. He has crossed paths with the Orders (no kidding), why would that be? Oh right they are trying to stop the dragons. Strange how people in the same field know each other.

By the definition, if Trahearne was a Mary Sue why would he be constantly asking for the counsel of the commander. In fact Trahearne is constantly asking what we should do next. Someone also said Trahearne named Fort Trinity, no, that was the Commander.

Also when Trahearne first does the ritual in the Kings tomb it fails and he is ready to throw in the towel. It was Laranthir and the Commander that brought him back up and made him trudge forward.

The one instance that Trahearne does show some power of summoning multiple minions, he is shown laying on the ground afterward, out of breath and exhausted, as if the mere ability of what he did almost killed him.

[Musaroxy.2874]

Speaking as someone from the "Trahearne was Okay" camp, I just wanted to add a few things here.

@"Tyson.5160" said:By the definition, if Trahearne was a Mary Sue why would he be constantly asking for the counsel of the commander. In fact Trahearne is constantly asking what we should do next. Someone also said Trahearne named Fort Trinity, no, that was the Commander.Actually, the original mention of the naming of Fort Trinity said that the Commander named it, and Trahearne took credit for it. Which, I can see where this is coming from, in Retribution, when talking to Trahearne at the end, we name it "We are three groups, coming together as one. How about Fort Trinity?", but dialog from the next quest, Forging the Pact, gives this line; "Trahearne: Excellent. I'll begin preparing our new headquarters at the Terzetto site, which I have code-named Fort Trinity. I look forward to seeing you all there."@"Tyson.5160" said:The one instance that Trahearne does show some power of summoning multiple minions, he is shown laying on the ground afterward, out of breath and exhausted, as if the mere ability of what he did almost killed him.I feel the need to add to this, there's only two occurrences in the entire personal story, where Trahearne summons minions. To stand guard around him as he calls the shots in Retribution (Where they do nothing at all), and the example everyone in the thread has brought up.

On the topic that keeps showing up about "spotlight stealing", as someone who believed this, and then didn't, I can see where it comes from. If you aren't Sylvari, you're very suddenly ripped from your very specifically personal story, where you did things in your own race's territory, and did things with the Order you chose, into one singular storyline, that, while still having choices, doesn't have as many with such a huge impact. And these choices are often all given to you by one single source, Trahearne. Meanwhile, if you've been a Sylvari the whole way, the personal story prior, becomes more like a build up to the Pact Storyline, and following this Firstborn's Wyld Hunt.But this is purely just my 2 cents, happy posting!

[Tyson.5160]

@"Musaroxy.2874" said:Speaking as someone from the "Trahearne was Okay" camp, I just wanted to add a few things here.

@"Tyson.5160" said:By the definition, if Trahearne was a Mary Sue why would he be constantly asking for the counsel of the commander. In fact Trahearne is constantly asking what we should do next. Someone also said Trahearne named Fort Trinity, no, that was the Commander.Actually, the original mention of the naming of Fort Trinity said that the Commander named it, and Trahearne took credit for it. Which, I can see where this is coming from, in Retribution, when talking to Trahearne at the end, we name it "We are three groups, coming together as one. How about Fort Trinity?", but dialog from the next quest, Forging the Pact, gives this line; "Trahearne: Excellent. I'll begin preparing our new headquarters at the Terzetto site, which I have code-named Fort Trinity. I look forward to seeing you all there."@"Tyson.5160" said:The one instance that Trahearne does show some power of summoning multiple minions, he is shown laying on the ground afterward, out of breath and exhausted, as if the mere ability of what he did almost killed him.I feel the need to add to this, there's only two occurrences in the entire personal story, where Trahearne summons minions. To stand guard around him as he calls the shots in Retribution (Where they do nothing at all), and the example everyone in the thread has brought up.

On the topic that keeps showing up about "spotlight stealing", as someone who believed this, and then didn't, I can see where it comes from. If you aren't Sylvari, you're very suddenly ripped from your very specifically

personal

story, where you did things in your own race's territory, and did things with the Order you chose, into one singular storyline, that, while still having choices, doesn't have as many with such a huge impact. And these choices are often all given to you by one single source, Trahearne. Meanwhile, if you've been a Sylvari the whole way, the personal story prior, becomes more like a build up to the Pact Storyline, and following this Firstborn's Wyld Hunt.But this is purely just my 2 cents, happy posting!

It just means that the personal story is best experienced through multiple characters/ races to see the cogs/wheels to truly appreciate the plot.

[Musaroxy.2874]

@Tyson.5160 said:It just means that the personal story is best experienced through multiple characters/ races to see the cogs/wheels to truly appreciate the plot.Yes, exactly that! While it does form a lot of the negative opinions that this post showcases, if one stops and looks, it's so specifically designed to be that way. So many of the side characters turn out to have depth, and backstory, so long as you play through on different races, and get different points of view. It applies quite thoroughly to the ups and downs of Trahearne as a character too.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@deatine.2498 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of

my

personal story all about

him

, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being

the

main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

Which is fine and dandy

in general

. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very

personal story of your character

. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be

your story

from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

Especially

with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

So you would have prefer yourself to be the Pact Marshall and send Trehearne to go fight Zhaitan?

I’d prefer the character of Trahearny Sue either omitted entirely or reduced to an “Orr advisor” kinda role.

Anything but the current Tree Jebus thing.

[spartan.9421]

I'd like to throw my hat into the ring as well.But first, the definition of a "Mary Sue". To Google~!

The definition of a Mary Sue, pulled from Wikipedia: "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of the story, such as by saving the hero."

Well, by that definition, he clearly isn't a Mary Sue. He can't perform tasks better than he should, he's not perfect, and has obvious flaws. He constantly doubt himself and second guests himself, displaying a lack of confidence. during the "against the corruption" story quest, he does seem ready to just give up, claiming it's impossible to cleanse Orr. You could argue that he has depression, though i'm not sure about that.

As for his ability to perform tasks better than he should.... i can't really find anything about this. You could argue that his leading is better than it should be but, there is not much of a case there. He puts on a face to make it look like he knows what he's doing, most likely to keep morale up. But behind closed doors, he's unsure of himself, seeking advice from his four advisers, one of them being us, the PC.

As for upstaging the main protagonist of the story.... when? When does he ever upstage us?(If you have an example of this, please list it.)Nor does he ever save us, as far as i know. (Again, if you have any examples of him saving us, i would love to hear about them.)

Hate him if you hate him, but don't wrongly label him as a Mary Sue, he isn't.

[Oglaf.1074]

He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him that he fits in the popular useage of the term since it has long since evolved past the dictionary definition.

Just like Rey from the goddawful Star Wars movies (although, in his defense Trahearne isn’t anywhere near as bad).

[Fenella.2634]

I get the impression people misunderstand what "Personal Story" means?It means you play the whole story with a character you designed and customized. Anet used this term to advertise the decisions we get to do at the beginning of the story, which in theory makes for various stories for MCs, with more or less variation.

It does not imply that we are the one and only important thing ever.

This is not Sword Art Online. :D Fortunately. (Also, isn't it a bit embarassing to be that jealous of an NPC...? Just saying...)

[Tyson.5160]

@Oglaf.1074 said:He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him.

Such as? Summoning a bunch of minions, advising that it takes a lot of energy and control, then collapses aftwards?

[Tsakhi.8124]

@"Fenella.2634" said:I get the impression people misunderstand what "Personal Story" means?It means you play the whole story with a character you designed and customized. Anet used this term to advertise the decisions we get to do at the beginning of the story, which in theory makes for various stories for MCs, with more or less variation.

It does not imply that we are the one and only important thing ever.

This is not Sword Art Online. :D Fortunately. (Also, isn't it a bit embarassing to be that jealous of an NPC...? Just saying...)

Thank the Six (Five) for that! I would actually stop playing if it went down a SAO path. (I'm one of the few that genuinely hated SAO. VEGETABLE SHIELD ACTIVATE!) Vwwwooom.

[Nogothanc.5014]

I like the irony in the fate of Trahearne... The scholar of Orr died because of his lack of knowledge.

[perilisk.1874]

I never really had much of an issue with Trahearne as a scholar or as the one selected by the Pale Tree to use Caladbolg to purify the Artesian waters. That's a plotline that runs through the entire course of the personal story (if you're a sylvari) and he's written well for the part. It's an important part of the fight against Zhaitan, but not the be-all and end-all.

It's just that shoehorning him into the role of Pact leader as well feels hard to justify -- why would you pick the charmless, uncertain loner who doesn't seem to know anything about commanding miliatry forces and who is going to just do whatever his one friend (who, in 2/3 of cases, is a member of a different Order) tells him? I think it was probably a way to avoid needing to a write a second character for that role, but it contributes a lot to the Mary Sue impression. He isn't just the Pale Tree's Chosen One, he's also leader of the world's largest paramilitary force. Being Treesus alone might be okay (and he's written well enough to support that role), being Stick Fury alone might be okay (if he was re-written for it), but both at the same time feels a little Mary Sue. The whole Pact concept itself bugs me. I don't mean the concept of the Orders working together, more the creation of a bland new supergroup that creates an excuse to sideline all the interesting lore and character of the Orders and eliminate the PC's connection to their chosen Order.

Anyway, I think they could have split the role of Trahearne into five racial characters who aren't exactly iconics, but play a major role throughout the entire storyline, such that none would feel over-important or overused. A Sylvari whose Wyld Hunt is to reclaim Caladbolg and purify (corrupt for Mordremoth?) the Artesian waters. A human who is a scholar of Orr and the gods and a powerful necromancer (Priestess Rhie, with a bigger role). An Asura researching dragons and dragon-killing lasers (Gorr, with a bigger role). A Charr war-mechanic who dreams of flight and builds the Pact's first flying machines. And a fierce but savvy Norn Lionguard who survived and led the retreat from the original battle of Lion's Arch, worked with the Orders to coordinate the assault on Claw Island, and continues in that vein as a war commander for all three Orders to take down Zhaitan.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Nogothanc.5014 said:I like the irony in the fate of Trahearne... The scholar of Orr died because of his lack of knowledge.

That’s sort of the racial irony inherent to all Sylvari. They’re fated/destined to these grandiose things individually but on the whole they are a naive and virgin race which at best causes comedic mishaps, and in worst case leads to terrible consequences for them (their abuse at the hands of Asura following their first contact, for example) or others.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

I gave plenty of examples, doesn't mean I can't say the rebuttals to my examples are valid ones... Which is exactly what I said?

His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

It's funny, really, how you keep deflecting my argument by just saying "NAH DOESN"T COUNT GO FUK UR WAIFU" but I've repeatedly stated that 1) I think Trahearne was poorly written while having a decent development, so I obviously don't like his character and certainly not to the extent you deflect things to, and 2) have actually presented explicit reasons for why your so called "examples" are incorrect, yet all you can say about my rebuttles are "they aren't valid" without stating why they're not valid.

As for "he doesn't fail", he actually does. Firstly, he fell into a risen trap during Forging the Pact, and during Against the Corruption his ritual failed as he thought of the wrong place to perform it. Both times, it was the PC who bailed his arse out. These aren't strong failings in of themselves, sure, though his self-critcism is present in most dialogue throughout chapters 7 and 8, but the lack of showing these failings is less an issue of Trahearne's character, and more an issue of the method of storytelling.

Namely, that method being the short story instances that much be resolved before each instance ends. They've gotten better at this, but the PS (and Season 2) are all very short instances which solve their issues within the instances almost every time.

Trahearne's writing has pretty major issues. But he's not a Mary Sue character.

As to "he's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too." This goes for every major character there is. Caithe has permastealth. Marjory creates a bone bridge and has half a dozen minions made. Kasmeer can make up to 20 phantasms and clones at a time and knock of time warp like it was an autoattack skill. And let's not get into what Jennah does, which is similar to what Kitah and Koro has performed. What Trahearne does that isn't amplified by Caladbolg (hell, even with Caladbolg) is pretty on par, if not subpar, to the members of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch, as well as the Ebon Falcons, Asclaon's Chosen (namely, Devona and co. henchmen), and the Canthan heroes of old.

In all honesty, reminding myself about these characters makes Trahearne feel hilariously subpar.

@"Oglaf.1074" said:He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him that he fits in the popular useage of the term since it has long since evolved past the dictionary definition.

"Popular usage" of the term "mary sue" is pretty much just saying "that is a character I don't like". Just because it's used incorrectly to define something that is horribly different from what the term means, doesn't make using that term incorrectly correct.