I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)

[Oglaf.1074]

No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.

Language and terms evolve, y’know. The term has grown in popularity and useage that it has outgrown it’s very limited, fan-fictiony origins.

See Rey from Star Wars, for example. Terrible Mary Sue in literally every way except fitting the textbook definition - although I guess one could argue that her movies are indeed fan-fiction. Terrible, terrible fan-fiction...

[CETheLucid.3964]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:it is not clear if our role was to be a kind of "politician" or an adventurer.

Both!

-kitten hits the fan-

Oh damn... alright... I'm... gonna go kill the big bad real quick, uhhhh, Faren! Go convince those crazy sylvari sisters why it's a bad idea to burn down The Grove! Go! The sociopolitical landscape of the world depends on you!

And no kinky buisness this time, you rascal!

[Fenella.2634]

@Oglaf.1074 said:No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.So, according to you a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue and is defined by being a Mary Sue. And you are right anyway no matter what.

Very impressive.

I still think he'd have deserved more dignity in dying and afterwards. Having to kill him even after Mordremoth was defeated, in such a horrible place, that was just cruel and unnecessary. Also, horrible and traumatic deaths in Tyria tend to cause souls to go to the Realm of the Lost. His body was destroyed anyway and we must assume that not even his soul found peace, but instead got destroyed by that monster we defeated in PoF. Eir got a really great and well-deserved funeral. Trahearne got treated like some random local sylvari hero no one cared about.This is just so much of an overkill, even if he was hated by parts of the fandom. Could he not have died in battle or something? Maybe really turned against the Pact and fought the Commander? Anything other than what we got.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Oglaf.1074 said:He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him that he fits in the popular useage of the term since it has long since evolved past the dictionary definition.

Just like Rey from the goddawful Star Wars movies (although, in his defense Trahearne isn’t anywhere near as bad).

no, he fits no Mary Sue definition at all.

He is simply no Mary Sue, no matter how you try to twist it. Is he flawed? Certainly. Are many people unable to understand that Trahearnes leadership of the pact makes total sense? Sure, as has been shown in this thread. Are many people blaming Trahearne for things he hasn't even done? All the time.

Maybe, just maybe, people should just redo the story and actually read and listen.

[Oglaf.1074]

Agree to disagree, then. I’m never going to buy the notion that Tree Jebus isn’t the worst character ever, nor are you ever going to see it my way. At this point, pushing the issue will just lead to nastiness and the infractions flying.

As for your closing point, though: I’d love to. Being allowed to replay the personal story has been on my personal wishlist for years now...

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Like I just said in the Taimi thread, there's no "agree to disagree" about facts. It's either a fact, or it isn't.

And in this case, Mary Sue doesn't mean "any character who has a singular Mary Sue characteristic" (if that were true, every character would be a Mary Sue, tbh). And Trahearne isn't a Mary Sue by any actual definition of the term. These are simply facts.

These are not opinions. Opinions are whether or not Trahearne is a good character or a bad character, or whether it was a good narrative to kill him off. That is where you can agree to disagree.

[Zola.6197]

I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor. For me, a big part of disliking the character was listening to him. Just... not much emotion. His voice only had one tone.

I don't miss him, though... I liked his tragic end, felt appropriately dramatic.

[Tyson.5160]

@Fenella.2634 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.So, according to you a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue and is defined by being a Mary Sue. And you are right anyway no matter what.

Very impressive.

I still think he'd have deserved more dignity in dying and afterwards. Having to kill him even after Mordremoth was defeated, in such a horrible place, that was just cruel and unnecessary. Also, horrible and traumatic deaths in Tyria tend to cause souls to go to the Realm of the Lost. His body was destroyed anyway and we must assume that not even his soul found peace, but instead got destroyed by that monster we defeated in PoF. Eir got a really great and well-deserved funeral. Trahearne got treated like some random local sylvari hero no one cared about.This is just so much of an overkill, even if he was hated by parts of the fandom. Could he not have died in battle or something? Maybe really turned against the Pact and fought the Commander? Anything other than what we got.

Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.

[Fenella.2634]

@"Svennis.3852" said:I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor.That's what we've got with the versions in different languages. I am playing the German version where his VA is decent, even though the lines themselves tend to be cringy. The wording is just... off. I don't see this problem when watching scenes of the English version, though.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Fenella.2634" said:Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

yeah, and if the question was to get the Trahearne off the scene, they could just put him busy with Orr's purification.

[Tyson.5160]

@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor.That's what we've got with the versions in different languages. I am playing the German version where his VA is decent, even though the lines themselves tend to be cringy. The wording is just... off. I don't see this problem when watching scenes of the English version, though.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

I liked Trahearne. Had no beef with the guy. My guess was that the devs wanted the Battle with Mordremoth to be a costly one. With characters, who have much more development, unlike what we had with Zhaitan, where we had seen a character in a couple instance and should feel bad, when they die, but usually don’t. The only ones that fit that mold better would be the mentors.

The death of a member of Destiny’s Edge and the Pact Marshall was the cost.

[Wolfb.7025]

I just finished HoT, I dare to say Trahearne was my favorite character, I think his personality kind of complemented mine, I was a little sad that I couldn't see him more on LWS2 and HoT. And to be fair, his death felt so forced, like there was really no reason for killing him, the st*pid gimmick of "Kill me or I will be consumed" was just so random and out of place that it felt like just an excuse to killing him off out of the story for good.

Also I got spoiled that he dies lol I was prepared, but not for something so creativity lacking like this.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"Fenella.2634" said:We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.To be fair, what he had going on went

There was that whole bit where he says removing him would kill him anyway, but more than that, we see the supposedly 'dead' Mordremoth overcome him at the end, complete with a visible manifestation behind Trahearne. And the burst when Mordremoth's magic is finally released? It doesn't come when the Mouth dies, or the mental avatar. It takes Trahearne's death to disperse it.

I agree that it wasn't a necessary twist, but it was well set up and integrated into the story. Regardless of leaving a bad taste in my mouth, they took care that it fit.

As for whether Trahearne is a Mary Sue? It depends entirely on which version of the term you subscribe to. I agree with Oglaf that popular usage determines definition, and not the other way around- especially with terms that are community-generated jargon to begin with- but Konig wasn't kidding when he said that the only part of the meaning you can reliably count on people agreeing to is the 'character I dislike' bit. Just going through TVTropes' list of interpretations, which isn't exhaustive- Trahearne could be a close fit for a couple, a debatable fit for others, and not even in the running for the rest. If somebody going by the Center of Attention version is talking to someone going by the Alien Element version, of course they're going to disagree. For all intents and purposes, they're talking about two different things.

[Oglaf.1074]

@"Tyson.5160" said:The death of a member of Destiny’s Edge and the Pact Marshall was the cost.

Speaking of which, at least Trahearne went for a sorta-good reason (with the plot-twist of Sylvari being Dragon Minions and all) unlike Eir who was just literally fridged for no other reason than to bring about perhaps the worst and most hated character developent in any character to date:

Emo Braham.

Unlike Trahearne, I don't think there is any debate on that subject: Emo Braham was/is universally loathed, and for good reason. So you guys/gals who liked Trahearne can at least take solace that his character had a somewhat good death. Unlike us poor fans of Eir....

[Fenella.2634]

Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham either :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 Yes of course, the way it was set up left us no option. I'm just saying that that setup was already completely unnecessary and just an excuse to get the players to kill Trahearne. It would not have hurt the story in the slightest if Mordremoth had just died completely after the combined mindscape / Mouth of Mordremoth battle.

Also, having a little bit of Mordremoth survive in a weak state would have been good for Tyria, really. But no one could have known that at that point, so...

[Oglaf.1074]

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

[Fenella.2634]

Ah, I see, good point. My only norn character is still stuck in early level missions, so I didn't get much interactions with Eir and Braham from that perspective.

[Traced.3495]

I loved him.

[Tyson.5160]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

This is one of those situations of like many situations with GW2 as the one Commander of all the races has to some how act like a human, a norn, a Sylvari, an Asura and a Charr, without creating too much of a different narrative for the game. Yeah there’s the odd flavour line for the different races, but the outcome remains.

If the Norn Commander gave Braham too much what for, then Braham would just shut up and learn his place which would then change the narrative, as it might not reflect an asura or a Sylvari. It’s a bit of tough thing really.

[Loki.4871]

He was a victim of a poor script/implementation; I think a good example would be (of all npcs) Kormir from GW1, pre Gandara invasion. There she's a vague figure you bump into a few times, she tells you what to do but beyond being a plot dispenser, doesn't really do anything.The biggest example of where it went 'wrong' in gw2 for me was when you're asked to go find out what's wrong with the lumber supply at a nearby camp. Before the cutscene had ended and I'd finished loading in to play, I heard Trehearne going "I'll come with you."

If the bossman is going to go, why am I needed there? I should be somewhere else, doing something else. That mission would have been more interesting if I'd gone to check and then Trehearne was the target of an assassination attempt, or something.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

This is one of those situations of like many situations with GW2 as the one Commander of all the races has to some how act like a human, a norn, a Sylvari, an Asura and a Charr, without creating too much of a different narrative for the game. Yeah there’s the odd flavour line for the different races, but the outcome remains.

If the Norn Commander gave Braham too much what for, then Braham would just shut up and learn his place which would then change the narrative, as it might not reflect an asura or a Sylvari. It’s a bit of tough thing really.

The problem with how Braham, and in fact Dragon's Watch's birth, was handled is that it doesn't fit norn, human, or charr methods, and even adhering to those three races' methods would be fitting enough for asura and sylvari. It was, ultimately, all done for the sake of adding drama, writing Braham onto the bus, and giving us some silly "player gets to chose the group's name" poll; if it was done for sake of "one commander of many races" then they didn't really consider how each race would go about it and didn't chose the common denominator.

Norn, human, and charr all have it in their culture to honor the fallen by taking up their tasks, naming after them, or some variance thereof. E.g., Kalla's Killers warband in Iron Marches, honoring Kalla Scorchrazor. In this, Braham's attitude was actually right; though what was wrong for Braham's attitude was his gross flip of personality after HoT where he avenged Eir, then goes all out emo because he wants to avenge Eir by completing her goal.

It would have honestly made a heck of a lot more sense to just expand Destiny's Edge, even if only in name, and to establish Braham's stress coming not from Eir's death, but the norn's expectations of dragonslayer Braham, son of dragonslayer Eir. There was a little bit of that expectation stress, but it was so minor. And that episode just being bad mechanically, and nothing coming out of Braham cracking the tooth, a massive lore expectation plot point since the beginning establishment of GW2 lore, just leaves and overall sour feel.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

This is one of those situations of like many situations with GW2 as the one Commander of all the races has to some how act like a human, a norn, a Sylvari, an Asura and a Charr, without creating too much of a different narrative for the game. Yeah there’s the odd flavour line for the different races, but the outcome remains.

If the Norn Commander gave Braham too much what for, then Braham would just shut up and learn his place which would then change the narrative, as it might not reflect an asura or a Sylvari. It’s a bit of tough thing really.

Indeed. I totally understand “the why” so to speak. Still doesn’t make me any less irritated by it. The super-generic writing out of necessity for the Commander is probably the weakest part of the writing (especially compared to the first chapters of the personal story that are specifically designed for your race).

[Genesis.8572]

Honestly, I think the problem is less about Trahearne (though his voice-acting was indeed insufferably flat) and more about how the personal story is structured. You are led to believe that your choice of Order matters, but then our Order and many of our choices utterly stops mattering as we are thrust into 2nd-in-Command under Trahearne. In this manner, Trahearne becomes a symptom of both fatigue and frustration players have in this bottlenecking of the story. I was not interested in playing sidekick to Trahearne's vision quest from the Pale Tree, and I was disappointed that my Order faded into nothingness after Claw Island.

I think my own preference would have been for us to preserve the importance of our Order but become a field commander for your Order under Trahearne, directing the warfront in our Order-specific way. Working towards the same goal - Zhaitan and Trahearne's cleansing of Orr - but in different ways and perspectives. But also not with Trahearne tagging along everywhere.

[Moonyeti.3296]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Moonyeti.3296 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

I couldn’t agree more about how Anet are essentially wasting the potential of the Norn race. It is as you say, your average player really just sees them as “big humans”.

Here’s hoping for a third expansion focusing on the Norns and Jormag, eh?