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@ReaverKane.7598 said:No class is doing good. GW2 balance is non-existant. But there are classes much worse than Elementalist, and ones that weren't the top dps for 5+ continuous years. It's all i'm saying, elementalist isn't that much worse than it was 2 months ago, or 6 months ago. It does 10k less damage, but that's not a bad thing necessarily.

You only think of the DPS benchmarks here, but the game isn't only about doing DPS for benchmarks, or even DPS in Raids. Elementalist has been top DPS for 5+ continuous years and trash tier on everything else in the game for an equal amount of time (and still is).

Chrono, Druid, Warrior and Elementalist were the only classes that never fell out of PvE Raid meta since HoT.

And again, you only think about PVE Raid meta, the game should be more than that, and IS more than that. Take away the top DPS of the Elementalist and you have nothing. And it has been nothing for 5+ years. But if you can only think of the snowcrows DPS benchmarks and how each build ranks there of course you will be biased and say that Elementalist doesn't need a rework more than others. It's been 5+ years of being trash, now that the only good thing the Elementalist had (being top DPS in raids) is no longer top, maybe it's time for a full rework of the Elementalist to give them a purpose to exist in the game.

Now the topic is how to fix the glaring issues with the Elementalist profession, not debate which profession should get a rework next. After all Mesmer is god/meta tier on every aspect of the game, PVE, Raids, Fractals, PVP, WvW and got a major rework/overhaul very very recently.

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@LazySummer.2568 said:

I don't know why you keep going on about ele being good in WvW when it's currently one of the worst class in WvW. It's bottom tier in roaming on par with necros and also not that great in zerging, though better than top roaming classes such as mesmers/thieves/rangers for sure. It's only good at killing siege and doing high dps on undefended lords/guards but in a zerg fight it pretty much gets hard countered by firebrands and spellbreaker bubbles. So many times I'll meteor shower a blob and see bunch of big numbers pop up but nobody goes down thanks to fb giving protection and sustaining through them. Scourge's barriers also work pretty well against meteor shower too . All of your good ccs gets also gets countered by fb who has easily access to stab. In fights where there's a lot of moving and neither zerg wipes to 1 or 2 pushes, I've pretty much came to realize that I just can't move with the tag because I pretty much cant do any counter pressure when there's bubble and stability flying around and I have to be off to the sides channeling my MS hoping nobody sees me and interrupt it much less have a hammer rev one shot me.

With this many fb running around I've pretty much given up on playing ele in WvW and switched to scourge and guess what? I actually feel like I'm doing a lot -- removing boons, especially stability and then ccing enemies with fear and I'm also keeping my squad alive through barriers. So many times I see bunch of red circles on choke coming from meteor shower I just laugh and put on my barrier and run right through, and if the ele is trying to channel it without stab I just put a fear mark on him for immediate cancel. This all hoping I dont die to retail too

I don't agree with the person you're replying to.

That said the way you describe ele in WvW is a L2P issue. You shouldn't be bombing the enemy group with meteo randomly expecting downs. Either you use it to trade meteo for space / their cooldowns or you coordinate a bomb with the rest of your group where you expect downs. You can't go drop a solo meteo and expect downs - that's just not how the game SHOULD work because it'd make ele insanely oppressive. FB being able to negate eles who don't know where to drop their damage skills for maximum effect but rather spam DPS on the zerg / melee ball is their goal.

Even in full pirateship meta, the majority of the time you're supposed to control their RANGE which very very rarely has FBs / healers sitting on them. The more you beat enemy range, the more space you'll acquire for yourself. There are two moments where you bomb melee : coordinating a bomb with your group - combined with CC and strips from others- and the moment they corrupt your cleave will easily down players AND finish downs or the enemy melee yolo pushing you, and your melee countering their range. At this point you should use SOFT pressure and still keep main bomb for the moment melees reserve for eachother rather than instantly bombing - unless your range is strong enough to crack their melee alone.

You shouldn't be dropping meteo's and be able to expect downs, even if they're perfectly on the group. Players that die to random cleave damage are bad pugs and a liability. Ofcourse almost all groups are full of bad pugs that die to random cleave - but that doesn't say anything about the viability of staff ele in zergs. Staff ele's biggest issue is how hard it scales with numbers and how effective it is against bad pugs. This means if it's viable in 20's, it'll be oppresive in 50+.

For GvG, staff and ele is way too weak and won't be run. For general WvW gameplay - I'd say there are plenty of small zergs which literally die to 1-2 good staff eles because they just can't deal with the constant pressure due to massive L2P issues.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:No class is doing good. GW2 balance is non-existant. But there are classes much worse than Elementalist, and ones that weren't the top dps for 5+ continuous years. It's all i'm saying, elementalist isn't that much worse than it was 2 months ago, or 6 months ago. It does 10k less damage, but that's not a bad thing necessarily.

You only think of the DPS benchmarks here, but the game isn't only about doing DPS for benchmarks, or even DPS in Raids. Elementalist has been top DPS for 5+ continuous years and trash tier on everything else in the game for an equal amount of time (and still is).

Except the top dps part. Now it's just mediocre dps and trash tier on everything else.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I got a question if tempest is to be support how come ANET hasn't buffed tempest to be more of a support now? also what i think they should do is like how druid spec is:You spec for healing and support you sacrifice dps.

They're afraid of overload dps....

All they need to do is nerf damage to minimum and add aoe buffs (I posted suggestions on 2nd page of this post).

That way tempest doesnt get any benefits from dps gear (you still get damage from weapon/utility skills, but you cant really control those with elite specs). Additionally it shouldn't have any self damage modifier, but it should have traits to buff group's damage (burn procs, might, fury in fire/ fury, quickness in air, bleed procs in earth). Water overload could use some icy particles and additional effects, since water attunement isn't focused purely on heals and cleanses.

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I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists base health too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

I've been repeating the main survivability issues many times but my messaged have fallen on deaf ears.

I tend to balance the low survivability myself with extra vitality and Celestial stats but of course this mean I have to pay with my DPS. And Celestial has been nerfed in PvP making this not a good option there. For PvP and WvW it does not really help that overall, damage has gone overboard in this game and elite specializations haven't improved on this.

Lack of survivability makes short-range attacks and the tempest's overloads quite risky as these require you to get close to the danger with your fragile Elementalist. I love the effects of the Tempests overloads and these do good damage with stacks of bleed on earth and stacks of burning on Ele, but in PvP and WvW I tend to get feared, knocked down, interrupted and of course killed.

Maybe Weaver is good for some, but the complicated nature of this Elite spec makes it unfit for me. Way too confusing to keep track of my skills. This means that I have to rely on core Elementalist and Tempest who mostly have the consensus to under perform.

Some thoughts: Points in water attunement could result in additional, passive vitality. Points in Earth attunement could give additional, passive toughness.

Stone Shards could use a reduced castin time for better dps overallRock barrier could use a longer uptime to allow it to be active longer while in other attunementsArc Lightning could use a buff in DPSLightning Stike could use a buff in DPS

Scepter fire and water are fine to me. Dagger offhand are fine as well. Nice skills, effects and damage.

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@"TheQuickFox.3826" said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists base health too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

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RaidingA lot have already been said in the raiding/fractal forum. Weaver is being phased out and replaced with each week showing fewer players. Historically tempest brought both best dps and cc but when weaver arrived the role of elementalist changed to only provide damage. It had potential for cc but in practice I found that groups structured itself around the idea to support the dps aspect of weavers. Since last patch this change drastically, and since weaver were only there to do dps it is now replaced with classes that either do significant better dps or contribute to the fight in other ways. Weaver also had one of the higher learning curves so assuming the current trajectory I would predict weaver to fall even further in player base as there is no incentive for new players to learn it and the existing base is already shifting to better professions.

Weaver need a reason to be used in raiding. If its not dps then it need to be something else. Even being a hybrid class and do multiple roles is something that weaver is not that good at since warrior and chrono does those role in superior ways over weaver. Give weaver a unique support function and it may be competitive here.

The only place that elementalist still have a bit of competition in this game mode is for the healing role, which occasionally see some use instead of druid on a few bosses.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"TheQuickFox.3826" said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

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sPVP only

my expirience in pvp 12 years (6 in gw2)

Weaver:

try to be very short:

ADD SUSTAIN PLEASE

Bit details:

  • Add evade and stunbreak to all stances and signets.
  • Add conditions cleanse without [Cleansing Water] (for example add to selected specialisation: air - on each swiftness, water - on each regen, earth on each protection, fire - on each might)
  • Remove casting time from stances (to avoid channel spell interruption).
  • Increase armor buff on Earth Attunement is active x2 times
  • Increase barriers x2 times
  • Give 40% to protection like for Tempest.
  • Give a way to earn "Fury" (for example on blast fire field or on [Arcane Prowess] as before)
  • Increase bufs from [Weave Self] x2 times (40% to boon duration, 40% to conditions, etc)

Fix a bug with [Twist of Fate] (it can be interrupted today, I think it should not be like this)

Then Weaver will be more/less viable in sPVP, but still not great because on cloth armor, lowest health pool, no block, etc.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"TheQuickFox.3826" said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

If you check actual raid performance you'll see that mesmer gets quite a lot of damage with confusion (which does nothing on golem benchmarks) and torment (which is nearly twice as effective as on golem) while still having nearly 50% evade frame, more CC (moa, pistol), more HP. Mirage's damage is higher in actual fights (outside of big hitboxes maybe, but only because of ele's big burst).

Necro is a balance on its own, but scourge can still provide some CC and barrier on demand. Power reaper can essentially ignore mechanics after 50% since shroud doesnt get any use in dps. As long as shroud/barrier has easy access, necro should never do comparable damage with other specs.

Last time I checked performance of scourge and weaver on raidar website, they were pretty close in dps output, despite big difference in self/group sustain.

Even if you compare scourge with tempest (who can bring aoe healing skill, stun break and take even less damage with protection), you'll see that tempest performs even worse dps-wise. The point is: you cant compare support elite specs that do fairly good damage to dps focused elite specs which bring nearly nothing. Dps tempest was the biggest mistake in HoT and we should look to avoid builds that can do virtually everything while having enormous damage output (engi builds are slowly reaching that point as well).

However, as others already mentioned, this is not a thread for this discussion. Every ele/fractal/raid thread is filled with worst class dps vs best class dps (which was ele until last patch) comments, so we don't need another one.

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Part of Ele's problem is its need to invest in healing power to make good use of many of its healing abilities - this is fair for AoE heals, and some classes have been adjusted to have the same high weightings (Druid springs to mind), but maybe for some personal abilities like Weaver barrier the base amount should be increased whilst healing powers effect is lowered.

Or - some of the extremely powerful low investment healing of other classes should have its baseline reduced and healing scaling increased - Necro barriers and Adrenal health are exceptionally powerful for no healing power investment at all. It is unfair that classes with high health pools or armour can also ignore the healing power stat in their builds. A particularly bad offender is chrono - which has wells on lower cast times (before alacrity!) that have a base heal about as much as a full healing power Grandmaster traited Ele shouts - because of an Adept tier trait! So they are usable on their insanely brokenly OP boonshare build (that essentially all high end PvE revolves around...) without any investment...

I would consider changing the minor master trait to somewhere between 750 and 1k base barrier with lower healing power scaling, and putting it on attunement swap rather than dual skill usage - 500 barrier every ~10-20 seconds is very underwhelming for a master tier trait and as with much of the weaver kit, punishes full attunement.

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@GoodWithGravy.8019 said:Part of Ele's problem is its need to invest in healing power to make good use of many of its healing abilities - this is fair for AoE heals, and some classes have been adjusted to have the same high weightings (Druid springs to mind), but maybe for some personal abilities like Weaver barrier the base amount should be increased whilst healing powers effect is lowered.

Or - some of the extremely powerful low investment healing of other classes should have its baseline reduced and healing scaling increased - Necro barriers and Adrenal health are exceptionally powerful for no healing power investment at all. It is unfair that classes with high health pools or armour can also ignore the healing power stat in their builds. A particularly bad offender is chrono - which has wells on lower cast times (before alacrity!) that have a base heal about as much as a full healing power Grandmaster traited Ele shouts - because of an Adept tier trait! So they are usable on their insanely brokenly OP boonshare build (that essentially all high end PvE revolves around...) without any investment...

I would consider changing the minor master trait to somewhere between 750 and 1k base barrier with lower healing power scaling, and putting it on attunement swap rather than dual skill usage - 500 barrier every ~10-20 seconds is very underwhelming for a master tier trait and as with much of the weaver kit, punishes full attunement.

Problem with ele heals is that literally all of them are aoe. There's no place for buffs on heals because all of that sustain is shared with allies. Considering that earth spec has almost no use in any build, adding self sustain traits in it would be more than welcome. I believe that ele was supposed to get barrier through earth spec with PoF, but that was never implemented. Even earth shield benefits from barrier, but there's just not many barrier sources or they arent very strong. Earth spec/skills could use scrapper treatment and introduce more barrier uptime (barrier on protection, stability, evade, on bleeding/immobilizing/crippling/blinding enemy, on reflect...) as well as benefits from barrier (less damage taken, condi cleanse per second, condi cleanse on getting barrier, cant be critically hit with barrier, conditions last longer with barrier, bleeding does more damage with barrier... are some of the examples).

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

This is at the root of the issue, spvp/ small group pvp requires that you can compete 1v1 and potentially hold 1v2 by going defensive until help arrives, and then some burst on demand. This is not the same as big pretty numbers while doing dps rotations on scripted pve monster that can be memorised, or a static dummy. Dps rotation numbers are mostly irrelevant outside of raids unless they meet the above criteria as well, and they are a million miles away at present because the the balancing 'attempts' that are made on a ridiculously long development lifecycle. Example is players who try to pvp with a glass cannon build - they quickly get targeted and melted down quick style because they are weak and gimmicky and offer a quick opportunity to skew the fight with a 4v5 which snowballs quickly.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

This is at the root of the issue, spvp/ small group pvp requires that you can compete 1v1 and potentially hold 1v2 by going defensive until help arrives, and then some burst on demand. This is not the same as big pretty numbers while doing dps rotations on scripted pve monster that can be memorised, or a static dummy. Dps rotation numbers are mostly irrelevant outside of raids unless they meet the above criteria as well, and they are a million miles away at present because the the balancing 'attempts' that are made on a ridiculously long development lifecycle. Example is players who try to pvp with a glass cannon build - they quickly get targeted and melted down quick style because they are weak and gimmicky and offer a quick opportunity to skew the fight with a 4v5 which snowballs quickly.

Dps rotation numbers are relevant anywhere in PvE. Your personal grudge against raids doesn't mean anything you don't like is only restricted to them.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

This is at the root of the issue, spvp/ small group pvp requires that you can compete 1v1 and potentially hold 1v2 by going defensive until help arrives, and then some burst on demand. This is not the same as big pretty numbers while doing dps rotations on scripted pve monster that can be memorised, or a static dummy. Dps rotation numbers are mostly irrelevant outside of raids unless they meet the above criteria as well, and they are a million miles away at present because the the balancing 'attempts' that are made on a ridiculously long development lifecycle. Example is players who try to pvp with a glass cannon build - they quickly get targeted and melted down quick style because they are weak and gimmicky and offer a quick opportunity to skew the fight with a 4v5 which snowballs quickly.

Dps rotation numbers are relevant anywhere in PvE. Your personal grudge against raids doesn't mean anything you don't like is only restricted to them.

you dont 'rotate' in pvp, its a totally different playstyle.

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Well is it supposed to be intended that every other class can do something better than Elementalist at this point leaving ele almost obsolete?This is not a hybrid game and it does not reward hybrid playstyle, so why make a hybrid class? You win with DPS and sustain at the end of the day in that order.Elementalist true hybrid died with the celestial nerfs.If you want players to play something, don't nerf it without buffs and fixes of sime kind, tweak it.The introduction of reduced damage per hit is a problem; Meteor storm should have never been touched with the damage reduction per hit same with glyph of storms / air. Over all damage redution; sure, but per hit? No. I don't say that to be rude, it's true. It's as if they couldn't think of anything else and pulled it out of nowhere. Non ele players called for nerfs when they didn't fully understand what it would do to the class- but like they care and of course, got what they wanted; punishing ele players way too much.Lava fonts only use now is to stack might. Meteor shower is sad- especially on my full ascended zerk ele.Scepter still has no real value, aside from niche players since it's high risk low reward with fresh air.dagger dagger is pretty useless after removal of celestial/nerf. Unless you're that ele bad ass who uses arcane dodge to complete combo's and inflict DPS with your rotation but most elementalists don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to rotating and feel justified face tanking on staff.Elementalist has no place in raids now- I was nicely asked to switch to something else in my raid group. My WvW guild asked us ele mains to play something else. and in PvE I prefer to play my mesmer who hits harder and has more sustain then Elementalist unless you're constantly using barriers as a weaver or looking to kite a player in WvW in a 1v1 (but eventually you die unless you run away since the sustain isn't enough for actual duels) or playing some version of a tempest that has no place in anything other than solo PvE. Sure it is still fun, however I'm having to work twice as hard to get the same result that I can do in less time and effort on say my warrior, mesmer or, guardian.Ele needs a full rework to be hybrid which means only minimal DPS, Condi DMG, + Healing buffs for them, because at this rate it's jack poop like scrapper.Tempest Warhorn needs buffs+ cd reduction to be at least considered into the specialization it was intended for. It's sad to think that a weapon is completely useless because of senselessly long cooldowns.Firebrand makes healing tempest obsolete. (No, don't nerf firebrand just so tempest can have a leg to stand on)Deadeye and Revenant make it so that DPS ele is not a thing.Warhorn (tempest) skills need to be 15 seconds per cast in PvE. PvP/WvW 18 seconds. And take away the moving AoE- make it one medium sized AoE ring when cast that you don't have to chase. Moving AoE's are a stupid mechanic and should be removed from warhorn.Their healing skills needs to be buffed for them to help their personal sustain, but they do not need to be pushed into a bunker corner.damage and AoE's need a complete fix- take away the damage reduction per hit. Every other class that has a chain skill with multiple hits needs this implemented as well if it's not taken away, to be fair to elementalist nerfs.I might get a lot of hate for this but it's just an idea.Maybe make it so that Tempest have ammo charges to their shouts and the final use gives a medium sized AoE overload that moves with the caster and can't be interrupted.Weaver - sword and staff should not be the only useful weapons on the class- scepter and dagger/dagger should be just as rewarding and fluid as staff and sword are. They need a complete rework so that they don't feel as clunky.Elementalist elites as a whole are all but useless- Weave self should grant boons and be instant cast, rebound should grant more boons and have a cd reduction, FGS needs a damage buff and CD reduction with stacks of burning + torment on each hit. Summon elemental should come with boons granted with CD reduction and each elemental should cast conditions on the target and work like ranger pets or spirits.New idea for tornado elite- it changes elements based on what attunement you are on. You no longer become a tornado and instead cast it in a chosen spot for AoE effects. Or a swirling AoE ring around you that follows you similar to the revenant skill that has the swiling hammers. Make it last 5-8 seconds with a CD of 90 seconds. Maybe make these the new overloads? Give them relevant boons and conditions.

Fire attunement: 5 stacks of might, fury for allies and inflicts burning and torment to foesWater attunement: is regen, healing AoE, removes all condi for allies 5s and inflicts chill and slow on foes 4sAir attunement: is quickness, alacrity, for allies and blind and bleed on foes. 4sEarth attunement: 3 stacks of Stability 10 seconds , protection and resistance for allies 3s and cripple and weakness on foes. 6s

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

This is at the root of the issue, spvp/ small group pvp requires that you can compete 1v1 and potentially hold 1v2 by going defensive until help arrives, and then some burst on demand. This is not the same as big pretty numbers while doing dps rotations on scripted pve monster that can be memorised, or a static dummy. Dps rotation numbers are mostly irrelevant outside of raids unless they meet the above criteria as well, and they are a million miles away at present because the the balancing 'attempts' that are made on a ridiculously long development lifecycle. Example is players who try to pvp with a glass cannon build - they quickly get targeted and melted down quick style because they are weak and gimmicky and offer a quick opportunity to skew the fight with a 4v5 which snowballs quickly.

Dps rotation numbers are relevant anywhere in PvE. Your personal grudge against raids doesn't mean anything you don't like is only restricted to them.

you dont 'rotate' in pvp, its a totally different playstyle.

Hence my wording "anywhere in PvE". Although I would argue it's not that different in PvP. You still have skill sequences you use in particular situations. The PvE "rotation" is actually built up from such sequences. What you see on the golem is just the ideal case where you chain one optimal sequence to the next, and the one after it, until the golem dies. In actual fight you often need to break and resume it. In other words - adapt to the particular situation.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Because they need to balance for that potential. That's what Benchmarks tell you. The potential of the class in terms of DPS. And that carries over to every other game mode.In a group Elementalists are that powerful. For them to buff their individual capabilities they'd have to nerf the power it gets in a group, which would probably mean destroying elementalist's identity completely.The main reason why elementalist is in disuse in sPvP is the same, imo, that brought sPvP low. They removed teams from the equation. Elementalist works like a striker in football (soccer for the USAnians). It is good at finishing and getting the goal, but it needs a team to "feed him the ball", otherwise he's useless. To change that they'd have to remove that identity, and make him a discount necromancer.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:I would love to see better survivability for Elementalist in all game types, but especially WvW and PvP. The Elementalists
too low with just 1,645. Compare this with Mesmer (5,922) and Necromancer (9,212) who are ALL high-damage, cloth armor caster classes. Generally the Elementalist does not out-damage a Mesmer or Necro, so is there any good reason left why base health is so low here?

If you check the snowcrows raid benchmarks you'll see that in raids Elementalist out-damage Mesmer and Necromancer, that's why they have such a low health pool (for.. balance) even though in PVP and even in solo story instances, a Mesmer and a Necromancer out-damage the Elementalist by a huge margin. But you see, for better or worse (probably worse) the raid benchmarks are how Arenanet now balances this game with zero thought about anything else.

Too bad for the majority of the players (including myself) who never raid then. GG.

That doesn't mean the dps isn't there if you're not in a raid.

This is at the root of the issue, spvp/ small group pvp requires that you can compete 1v1 and potentially hold 1v2 by going defensive until help arrives, and then some burst on demand. This is not the same as big pretty numbers while doing dps rotations on scripted pve monster that can be memorised, or a static dummy. Dps rotation numbers are mostly irrelevant outside of raids unless they meet the above criteria as well, and they are a million miles away at present because the the balancing 'attempts' that are made on a ridiculously long development lifecycle. Example is players who try to pvp with a glass cannon build - they quickly get targeted and melted down quick style because they are weak and gimmicky and offer a quick opportunity to skew the fight with a 4v5 which snowballs quickly.

Dps rotation numbers are relevant anywhere in PvE. Your personal grudge against raids doesn't mean anything you don't like is only restricted to them.

you dont 'rotate' in pvp, its a totally different playstyle.

Hence my wording "anywhere in
PvE
". Although I would argue it's not that different in PvP. You still have skill sequences you use in particular situations. The PvE "rotation" is actually built up from such sequences. What you see on the golem is just the ideal case where you chain one optimal sequence to the next, and the one after it, until the golem dies. In actual fight you often need to break and resume it. In other words - adapt to the particular situation.

Everything is a sequence at the end of the day, but pve raiding is about min maxing the smoothness of the rotation and dps over everything. Out of raiding this is relevant but not essential, and pvp it is simply not relevant or appropriate. In PVP its about switching between defense and offensive spikes to counteract and overwhelm the opponent. Reactive gameplay is at the core, not rotation, in fact steady dps at a given rate is extremely bad because its predictable. Back to the original point, balancing based on this for PVP does not work (as we can can obviously see at the moment)

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:just give ele 5000 more base hp, remove stealth from the game entirely and give ele the same barrier as necro (either more barrier for ele or a lot less for necro, either works). The rest would sort itself out.

That's a bit extreme just saying

why? necros have more hp AND barrier and less restrictions, so giving the same hp and barrier would actually fair.

And as long as a thief or mesmer can jump you out of stealth and just burst you down with no defense at all, why are we even talking about balancing?

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