better future elite spec design — Guild Wars 2 Forums

better future elite spec design

will having the balance and skill design teams working so close with the pvp and wvw balance team help create a better understanding of abilities/class mechanics that can be useful in all game modes and have better throughout ways to combat the difference of using skills on AI and Skills on Players.

e.g scrapper had a mechanic that was very focused on interacting with players but not as useful in a pve environment
renegade has summoned spirits that work well against AI but not as effective in game modes with aoe CC and damage that get them destroyed
other issues like scourge with its over heavy boon converting that becomes problematic in boon heavy game modes over say PVE where it as little effect

what I am trying to say is will having the teams working closer help stop future design choices that focus on one class type being either over effective in one game mode and under effective in another.

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  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    If more boons exist in PvE, then that naturally those mechanics (and thus specializations) becomes a bit more effective there too. We're coordinating more with the living world and raids+fractals teams to help with these things as well.

    Yes, that would be wonderful.

    PvE lacks so much nuance that most encounters feel the same.

    However, it's not just about those things existing in PvE. They need to feel impactful enough to force you to change your playstyle habits a little bit, or else you can just use your top DPS rotation and kill anyone regardless of how many boons enemies have on themselves. Not being able to adapt should have consequences. But I suspect that is near impossible to achieve in a game where unoptimized builds deal drastically less damage than optimized builds.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DiogoSilva.7089 said:
    However, it's not just about those things existing in PvE. They need to feel impactful enough to force you to change your playstyle habits a little bit, or else you can just use your top DPS rotation and kill anyone regardless of how many boons enemies have on themselves. Not being able to adapt should have consequences. But I suspect that is near impossible to achieve in a game where unoptimized builds deal drastically less damage than optimized builds.

    It would be nice if PvE hewed a little closer to PvP and WvW in terms of enemy encounter design. It would also help with balance issues in general, as right now certain things are either too powerful or too weak against AI. I always liked the Sylvari half of the Toxic Alliance for that reason, and not just because it was one of the few opportunities to use Finishers in PvE. Right now, playing PvE doesn't really prepare you at all for PvP, and vice versa to a lesser extent. In some ways, playing either actually probably makes you worse at the other by teaching bad habits.

    I guess the main problem with putting those smarts onto PvE mobs is that they work best in groups (ooh, make a raid boss that is basically a souped-up 10-person enemy team using meta raid comp abilities), but a group that behaved like players would destroy most solo OW players, or be so weak that the mechanics didn't matter. However, if they were found in events that involved NPC allies with similar abilities and intelligence (something like the Mantle vs Seraph events), then it could work -- and support builds would even be somewhat viable.

    At any rate, I'm not sure how much encounter design and AI overlap with Systems, though obviously it has a major impact on PvE balance.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It is a goal to create more nuanced understanding of each profession across each game mode. All of us play a significant amount of the game, but none of us are masters of all professions across all game modes. So.... yes, we'll be mitigating some of the lopsided effectiveness across game modes but that is only going to go so far.

    We don't focus on someone being super effective in a mode; we focus on what role they should be effective at and what mechanic will help them do that.

    We want some professions to be great at, say, boon to condition conversion. As you point out, that is more effective in some (competitive) game modes than others. If more boons exist in PvE, then that naturally those mechanics (and thus specializations) becomes a bit more effective there too. We're coordinating more with the living world and raids+fractals teams to help with these things as well.

    Are there any plans to introduce elite specs outside Expansion releases. I'm saying this, because to have a decent roster where each core profession has a choice of support, tank, heal, dps elites, and this way make true the "No holy trinity" promise, it will take at least another 3 years. I don't think that's going to be a good thing. The lack of choices and a proper identity conveyed into specializations is already pushing some professions out of content. Like necromancers barely having a spot in PvE, especially after the epidemic nerf, and how badly elementalists were hit by what was a moderate, and partially warranted, nerf.

    I honestly thing that this elite release schedule (and how traits were renamed to excuse the fact that only one elite was coming with HoT) and the Quarterly (now slightly more frequent) release schedules, were two of the worse possible decisions for GW2 ever made. At least that have a more generalized, and sometimes less perceived impact on the game, which just makes it a bit more insidious.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It is a goal to create more nuanced understanding of each profession across each game mode. All of us play a significant amount of the game, but none of us are masters of all professions across all game modes. So.... yes, we'll be mitigating some of the lopsided effectiveness across game modes but that is only going to go so far.

    We don't focus on someone being super effective in a mode; we focus on what role they should be effective at and what mechanic will help them do that.

    We want some professions to be great at, say, boon to condition conversion. As you point out, that is more effective in some (competitive) game modes than others. If more boons exist in PvE, then that naturally those mechanics (and thus specializations) becomes a bit more effective there too. We're coordinating more with the living world and raids+fractals teams to help with these things as well.

    The typical low rate of boon generation, boon stripping, condition clearing, condition generation, and the nerf to non-damaging conditions Defiance brings produces a large gap in a profession's efficacy between PvE and WvW/PvP. Aside from the disparity between NPC and PC boon/condi handling, there is also the proliferation of boons and conditions to consider. NPCs, especially boss-level, are unable to manipulate boons and conditions like a boss... hence their reliance on the Defiance immunity idol.

    Boss AI and skills are the cause of imbalance between PvE and PvP/WvW.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It is a goal to create more nuanced understanding of each profession across each game mode. All of us play a significant amount of the game, but none of us are masters of all professions across all game modes. So.... yes, we'll be mitigating some of the lopsided effectiveness across game modes but that is only going to go so far.

    We don't focus on someone being super effective in a mode; we focus on what role they should be effective at and what mechanic will help them do that.

    We want some professions to be great at, say, boon to condition conversion. As you point out, that is more effective in some (competitive) game modes than others. If more boons exist in PvE, then that naturally those mechanics (and thus specializations) becomes a bit more effective there too. We're coordinating more with the living world and raids+fractals teams to help with these things as well.

    Do you guys think the mesmer is not the master of all though? Just by reading the forums, it seems like this class just ‘dominates’ the entire game.

    ex. PvE Raids - damage, tank, heal, support
    WvW and PvP - utility, roaming, burst, condi, stealth, portal, evades.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    We want some professions to be great at, say, boon to condition conversion. As you point out, that is more effective in some (competitive) game modes than others. If more boons exist in PvE, then that naturally those mechanics (and thus specializations) becomes a bit more effective there too. We're coordinating more with the living world and raids+fractals teams to help with these things as well.

    I'm affraid that thinking this way won't lead to satisfying result for this specific example.
    This is mainly due to the difference in what and how you fight in each gamemode.

    • When you fight players, they usually have an health pool relatively low and rely heavily on boons for their performances. This make boon to condition conversion extremly strong because you strip your enemy of his lifeline and effectiveness while also applying various condition to worsen things even more.
    • Whereas when you fight mobs and especially bosses, you face a very large health pool and an entity that don't rely on boons for their performances. Fondamentally bosses, even if they were to be sentient, wouldn't even feel the impact of boon to condition conversion because their efficiency don't rely on boons and they have a massive health pool giving them enough inertia to make the fights relatively long.

    Another important point is that boons that convert into impactful condition aren't boons that really give anything to a boss/mob.

    • Aegis would be objectively nigh impossible to convert in a realistic fight (forgot about burn)
    • Alacrity would have no effect on a mob/boss which mean it's ridiculous to give it to them (forgot about chill)
    • Fury to blind: Does a boss even need crit chance to be effective? No. Would blind do anything to a boss? No.
    • Might to weakness: Weakness don't have any sensible effect on a boss, a waste.
    • Protection to vulnerability: The issue here is that protection impact to much professions that don't have boon ripping effect making this boon difficult to genralize.
    • Quickness to slow: Do mob/boss even have cast time that could be impacted?
    • Retaliation to confusion: The most controversed boon against the difficult to make strong condition in PvE. Something extremly dangerous to implement.
    • Stability to fear: Say hello to Break bar.
    • swiftness to cripple: mobs/boss barely feel swiftness like they barely feel cripple. Mobs and boss don't need swiftness to outrun a player and breakbar totally nullify any value that cripple could have.
    • Resistance to chill: An interesting way to nullify condi damage for mobs/boss... Oh yes... you already give that to their phase immunity... guess, even if chill was usefull, it's a miss...

    This left us with:

    • Vigor to bleed: An interesting conversion from the player point of view but there is no value at all in vigor for the mob/boss.
    • Regen to poison: Probably the logical boon to generalize, yet I don't see mobs/boss being dependant on this boon in any way (large health pool trivialize it).

    Added to this the fact that 10 players bash the same boss in a raid, a single boon removal on an autoattack make the whole concept of making boon conversion a good thing is doomed to be a far and unreachable goal filled with imbalanced issues for professions that don't have any access to boon removal tools.

    This is honnestly an impossible task to make boon to condition convertion a valuable mechanism in PvE and I doubt wasting your time and effort to do so is a good thing.

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