More healers in pvp — Guild Wars 2 Forums

More healers in pvp

Afternoon! I just wanted to know, are there any plans to bring other specializations up to this standard of healer firebrand in pvp? As it stands, specs like druid (that were never healers in pvp), ventari or tempest can't really compete.

Any plans to address this?

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Comments

  • Coronit.9432Coronit.9432 Member ✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    They shouldn't ever bring ele and ventari up to the standart of healer firebrand. The reason firebrand is used is because its still far to strong. It has strong healing and support. The heal from ventari rev and tempest is good as well, rev has more a burst heal and CC and tempest more support via for example auras, but they have there downsides. And that is needed. Prior PoF you used 1-2 guards, 2 damage dealers and a heal tempest in wvw guild-comps. Now ONE firebrand takes over the roles of 2 guards and a heal tempest.
    To make ventari and temppst more relevant again the damage and sustain overall still has to be reduced.

  • I main a heal tempest.

    Ben Phongluangtham
    Game Designer
    Reddit: ANET_BenP
    Twitch: AnetBenP

  • Hey Ben, does that sentiment extend into PvE also? There is a similar situation there where certain healers and supports are in a position where replacing them is a straight downgrade for the good of the group.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    You have been nerfing other healing specs such as druid hardcore over the last few patches. Resisting nerfing would be keeping it about the same.

  • Ben, i also loved to main heal tempest but the sentiment of "meta or gtfo" forced my hand for wvw. FB and Chrono are the only accepted support classes where I wvw. I am glad the balance team is aware of the issues. Please keep up the good work.

  • Kuya.6495Kuya.6495 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    That's a shame. And in regards to druid and ventari? They haven't yet made it into meta as healers even before firebrand. Perhaps fb can use shaves but druid and ventari could possibly need reworks to match.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    I, personally, don't feel the main issues lies with buffs or nerfs... It is not nearly as enjoyable and rewarding to play heal or non-heal support roles compared to other roles. It is infinitely more fun and fluid to play damage roles, and extremely clunky to play support roles because of skill designs, mechanics and resource management on a couple.

    Druid is clunky to heal with and some ideas would go a long way... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39412/eye-on-druid-ideas-yay

    Ventari Tablet would be leaps more enjoyable if it were a "back pack", not a tablet that needed to be moved around trying to heal the cat herd.

    Ele healer is most "fluid" of them all, but still feels uninspiring. Frustrating to heal teammates outside of tight blobs.

    I gave up trying to play support so I didn't even bother to look at how Firebrand functions...

    By comparison, I played mostly support roles in City of Heroes, and those were some of the most enjoyable gaming experiences I've ever had. The below was a taste of playing a support role in CoH… Fun. Fast paced. Not clunky. Builds had a ton of flexibility. Desired, but not needed in teams. No funky resource gating mechanics. Great skill designs for movement oriented combat in pvp and their version of "wvw"...

    Edit- There were also a ton of “balanced”, viable and fun heal and non-heal support roles and power sets to choose from... among others roles and power sets as well...

    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Heal spec's should definitely pay enough of a dps penalty to require their team to make up for a large portion of the damage healed. To me, it is a matter of scaling heal stat's and offensive stats. A negative power stat should be one extreme in return for high healing output.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    I main a heal tempest.

    In spvp or wvw? Tempest realty fallen out of use in wvw for support there are out right wanted classes that support much more effective in wvw setting i know nothing about spvp.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    I actually think I'd like to see healing have more influence. Together with shaving of defenses on classes like mesmer and warrior, so supports can't buff these classes to invulnerability. Damage and healing rotating, ebbing and flowing, in turns could make for an interesting meta, feel more dynamic than the current Blam! ye deed-meta. So please buff Tempest, I haven't been able drop my ele in HotM in over a year now. Other supports too but Tempest would be the easiest to fix IMO.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    I main a heal tempest.

    How would you feel about making tempest shouts be charged skills, like what happened with warriors shake it off. I feel if they had 2-3 charges eye of the storm will actually be usefull in heavey cc fighting, or having after shock with 2-3 charges to so that they have something on par with the 7 second ranger rapid fire, and the deadeye rifle.
    And not just tempest shouts. Id also like to see cleansing fire get a 2-3 charges as well.
    This is all from a pvp perspective.

  • By comparison, I played mostly support roles in City of Heroes, and those were some of the most enjoyable gaming experiences I've ever had. The below was a taste of playing a support role in CoH… Fun. Fast paced. Not clunky. Builds had a ton of flexibility. Desired, but not needed in teams. No funky resource gating mechanics. Great skill designs for movement oriented combat in pvp and their version of "wvw"...

    Edit- There were also a ton of “balanced”, viable and fun heal and non-heal support roles and power sets to choose from... among others roles and power sets as well...

    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

    I miss COH so much. Getting a kinetic heal off that took melee from the brink of death to full health chef's kiss

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    I main a heal tempest.

    I feel for you man :p

    More seriously, we do not want healers. I much rather have healing FB concept dismantled instead of adding more healers.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like healing and survivability isn't really useful unless you sacrifice everything else, and that won't matter because most things deal damage based on your max health anyways which no amount of healing can counter. So you lose your dps AND you sacrificed everything to not even counter damage being dealt to you. Just stealth or use things that negate damage because stats really don't matter for anything outside it.

  • Idril.8532Idril.8532 Member ✭✭

    I love healing, I miss being a "relevant" healer. But why should I heal in WvW with my FB if I do not get any contribution? I play casually, I do not have a guild for pvp and when I heal I want to heal. The staff has a very short range to participate into things and I woudn't certainly be able to make the same contribution my scourge does. So, I would like this thing of the contribution to be addressed first. If people are alive thanks to my healing/shielding, I should get rewarded. Stop the masquerade with "no trinity" in GW2. Ppl keep crying on WvW chat when they do not have enough FB and Metabattle has build for tanks and healers. Not only that even the stats in-game are tailored to make healers and tanks. Maybe you can avoid having one in your group, but if they exist and they are an official option, at least let them participate into the fun like anyone else by doing what they do best and be rewarded for it.

    I've stopped playing my FB in pvp cause I wasn't able to heal effectively while I also had to concentrate on making contribution. Our biggest healing are on f2, but if you want to participate you have to get on f1 etc... can't I simply concentrate on healing/shielding ppl?

    And now hate me, destroy my opinion if you want, I'll keep healing/buffing you in open world/bounty maybe fractals one day <3

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Idril.8532 said:
    I love healing, I miss being a "relevant" healer. But why should I heal in WvW with my FB if I do not get any contribution? I play casually, I do not have a guild for pvp and when I heal I want to heal. The staff has a very short range to participate into things and I woudn't certainly be able to make the same contribution my scourge does. So, I would like this thing of the contribution to be addressed first. If people are alive thanks to my healing/shielding, I should get rewarded. Stop the masquerade with "no trinity" in GW2. Ppl keep crying on WvW chat when they do not have enough FB and Metabattle has build for tanks and healers. Not only that even the stats in-game are tailored to make healers and tanks. Maybe you can avoid having one in your group, but if they exist and they are an official option, at least let them participate into the fun like anyone else by doing what they do best and be rewarded for it.

    I've stopped playing my FB in pvp cause I wasn't able to heal effectively while I also had to concentrate on making contribution. Our biggest healing are on f2, but if you want to participate you have to get on f1 etc... can't I simply concentrate on healing/shielding ppl?

    And now hate me, destroy my opinion if you want, I'll keep healing/buffing you in open world/bounty maybe fractals one day <3

    Firebrand has nearly 100% retal uptime. Firebrand has good reflect uptime too, and symbols / staff. If you support allies, you don't need more damage than 1 proc to tag them since the changes (which were months ago.)

    You get maybe 20% more bags on scourge than on FB, but not much more. If you play FB well -ACTUALLY SUPPORTING YOUR ALLIES AND NOT PLAYING TO TAG- but still doing your job with reflects, retal, pushing and healing then you will tag almost everything. It's only in the fights that are complete overruns where I struggle to tag everyone as they spread out and aren't busy hitting us back + players die before I even get there.

    If you were talking from heal scrapper or heal rev POV, maybe I could understand. But FB does not struggle with tagging, you do. You don't need staff 1 to tag anything. If people are alive thanks to you properly playing firebrand as pure support, you will get at least 80% of the loot when playing well on FB.

    Scourge is insanely easy and great for tagging. Most other classes can't compete, yet weaver, scourge, fb and rev played well manage to tag almost everything in even fights. You can reliably do 80% of scourge almost all the time. It's mostly warrior, chrono, scrapper / engi and a few other builds that struggle.

  • Idril.8532Idril.8532 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    I should give it another chance then, I left her to rot while I was grinding harrier accessories for her with other dps characters, but I do not understand why a healer should tag at all.

    In other games were I played pvp, if you were a healer, your contribution wasn't based on you tagging enemy players. Why should you be 'judged' on a dps-base if you are not one? Healer FB are not as efficient as Scourge, for example, in tagging, you said it yourself. So, what's the point of tagging? I'm not asking to change the class, I can keep on reflecting and all, but be judged for my actual role.

  • If you were talking from heal scrapper or heal rev POV, maybe I could understand. But FB does not struggle with tagging, you do. You don't need staff 1 to tag anything. If people are alive thanks to you properly playing firebrand as pure support, you will get at least 80% of the loot when playing well on FB.

    I think this is the main issue I have with GW2 and its community, and I feel this quote encapsulates it quite well, thank you.

    What GW2 does is give me its rhetoric that there is no trinity: no split between DPS, Tank and Healer. What the actual game tells me, as well as my experience with any game that does away with trinity, is that it all boils down to DPS and the entire game becomes a DPS check, as any and every way to challenge players boils down to a DPS check since there's no other mechanic to the game.

    When that is absolutely impossible, such as WvW when you absolutely utterly cannot be expected to just ninja dodge everything with the reflexes of a 17 years old pro league MOBA player, it turns out that you do need roles and you do need dedicated healers and supporters. That, I feel, is when the game breaks down completely in a ridiculous mess.

    You talk about tagging and blame other people for not playing "properly". You do realise, I hope, that the very fact you absolutely need to "tag" people to have the game system recognise your contribution is something that some people, like me, consider to be a bug and not a feature. I can understand this system for most PvE metas where you just join a massive group of players and blast your way to the end and honestly, even if you tried you couldn't tell whether you're actually contributing to the meta or not (another huge problem, as it prevents players from learning anything), but not in any form of PvP.

    You rightfully mentioned that some classes struggle with tagging. Do these classes also struggle with being proper supports? Does a skilled player who actually contributes to the team by being a good support get the recognition they deserve if they happen to play a class that has problems tagging? I don't consider this to be a feature, if I have abilities, stats and a build that actually contributes to the success of the team, the fact my contribution gets cut down because "lol lrn2tag" feels quite infuriating. World of Warcraft Vanilla had this problem too: healers wouldn't get any contribution in PvP, but they were also needed to actually win any PvP beyond a duel, so what you had to resort to was to break into a friend's house, beat them up, tie them to a chair and force them to level up a holy priest and strap a bomb under their buttocks to ensure they would follow you into PvP while getting no rewards out of it.

    It was absolutely terrible, so they changed it. I am amazed GW2 has this exact same gig going and just resorts to "lol lrn2tag" while being perfectly aware that it's not a solution, because not all proper "support" classes have the same means to tag, meaning the game punishes you for playing the "wrong" class even though there shouldn't be a "wrong" class if there's no trinity and every class has healing/support skills and builds?

    I could go on and on on how the game does absolutely nothing to teach you how to play and you have no way to actually check how you're doing because the API doesn't let you build add-ons to properly check and keep track of healing, damage mitigation, buff uptime and whatnot, but I feel like I rambled too much already.

    Bottom line is: I understand class balance is an ongoing, never-ending process, but I feel like there's a massive issue with the how the game's core concept functions and trying to address it only entices toxicity.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Idril.8532 said:
    I should give it another chance then, I left her to rot while I was grinding harrier accessories for her with other dps characters, but I do not understand why a healer should tag at all.

    In other games were I played pvp, if you were a healer, your contribution wasn't based on you tagging enemy players. Why should you be 'judged' on a dps-base if you are not one? Healer FB are not as efficient as Scourge, for example, in tagging, you said it yourself. So, what's the point of tagging? I'm not asking to change the class, I can keep on reflecting and all, but be judged for my actual role.

    You are judged for your actual role. If you so much as support your allies and are part of a squad that kills these enemies, you need to do a grand total of 1 damage to them. They hit you once, you hit them once, in any way, throughout their entire time in combat. This is honestly trivial to do.

    This is REQUIRED because WvW is already full of brain-afk leeches only looking to tag and bag. I'm sorry to put it this crude but if we allowed players to heal and not even get in combat with other players, we'd have healers sitting in the back applying regen to EVERYONE and expecting to get every bag anyone touches in the game. Even if their regen gets overwritten or only lasts 2 seconds and they won't even come close to anyone else. Hell, you'd probably have people AFK spamming regen on the way out of the keep to keep their participation and loot up while fully-afk. Considering the amount of people I see afk trebbing i wouldn't be suprised.

    The difference in tagging is maybe 20% ; mostly due to one-push fights. In even fights the difference is even smaller. On top of that, tagging is a very very very small part of your loot. The majority of your loot comes from reward tracks and pips which are equalized. On a full night, if i get 80% of the bags of a scourge on my FB that means I get what... 30 silver less if we've been farming all night? Barely 10 silver per hour on GOOD nights? Not even 2 silver per hour on bad nights? Whooptedy kitten doo.

    I understand it's frustrating. But we cannot make that "1 damage + support" into 0 damage + support because it promotes further unhealthy gameplay. And honestly, it's not really frustrating when you think about it rationally. You know what's frustrating? I can tag up, lead a zerg and end up having to pay more gold to food and siege than I get from playing the gamemode. Losing gold per hour isn't rare if you like guild siege, and even without it's not unheard of especially in the past. Pretty sure every GvG player pays more for their food than they get back from the raid, too. But honestly, tagging on FB is pretty kitten good right now.

    The guy who's at 1 million kills? guard main.
    The guy who's at almost 1 million kills? Also guard main.
    :trollface:

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArcPrincess.9054 said:

    If you were talking from heal scrapper or heal rev POV, maybe I could understand. But FB does not struggle with tagging, you do. You don't need staff 1 to tag anything. If people are alive thanks to you properly playing firebrand as pure support, you will get at least 80% of the loot when playing well on FB.

    I think this is the main issue I have with GW2 and its community, and I feel this quote encapsulates it quite well, thank you.

    What GW2 does is give me its rhetoric that there is no trinity: no split between DPS, Tank and Healer. What the actual game tells me, as well as my experience with any game that does away with trinity, is that it all boils down to DPS and the entire game becomes a DPS check, as any and every way to challenge players boils down to a DPS check since there's no other mechanic to the game.

    When that is absolutely impossible, such as WvW when you absolutely utterly cannot be expected to just ninja dodge everything with the reflexes of a 17 years old pro league MOBA player, it turns out that you do need roles and you do need dedicated healers and supporters. That, I feel, is when the game breaks down completely in a ridiculous mess.

    You talk about tagging and blame other people for not playing "properly". You do realise, I hope, that the very fact you absolutely need to "tag" people to have the game system recognise your contribution is something that some people, like me, consider to be a bug and not a feature. I can understand this system for most PvE metas where you just join a massive group of players and blast your way to the end and honestly, even if you tried you couldn't tell whether you're actually contributing to the meta or not (another huge problem, as it prevents players from learning anything), but not in any form of PvP.

    If you support on FB properly, you tag. So again, L2P issue and not L2tag issue.
    You can tell if you're contributing. It's called ARCDPS and it tells you most people really don't give a kitten. ;)

    You rightfully mentioned that some classes struggle with tagging. Do these classes also struggle with being proper supports? Does a skilled player who actually contributes to the team by being a good support get the recognition they deserve if they happen to play a class that has problems tagging? I don't consider this to be a feature, if I have abilities, stats and a build that actually contributes to the success of the team, the fact my contribution gets cut down because "lol lrn2tag" feels quite infuriating. World of Warcraft Vanilla had this problem too: healers wouldn't get any contribution in PvP, but they were also needed to actually win any PvP beyond a duel, so what you had to resort to was to break into a friend's house, beat them up, tie them to a chair and force them to level up a holy priest and strap a bomb under their buttocks to ensure they would follow you into PvP while getting no rewards out of it.

    Learn to play =/= learn to tag. I agree chrono and scrapper do struggle with bags. You fail to ignore the other aspect of the issue while being very adamant about defending the loot you feel you deserve.

    I agree supports like scrapper and mesmer deserve loot. I don't agree for FB. IF you play the SUPPORT FIREBRAND ROLE as pure support, and do it well, you will get your tags. I'm not talking about "playing to tag". I'm talking about playing full support and getting rewarded for it. If you struggle at tagging on firebrand, you should look at your LEARN TO SUPPORT AND PLAY THE GAME skills. Because you're probably not actually supporting properly if you're not getting bags. And it's OK to give BAD GAMEPLAY less rewards ;)

    It was absolutely terrible, so they changed it. I am amazed GW2 has this exact same gig going and just resorts to "lol lrn2tag" while being perfectly aware that it's not a solution, because not all proper "support" classes have the same means to tag, meaning the game punishes you for playing the "wrong" class even though there shouldn't be a "wrong" class if there's no trinity and every class has healing/support skills and builds?

    Now lets talk about what GW2 did. They shifted all rewards in WvW AWAY from tags. Tagging is a very, very small part of your loot unless you're farming like crazy. Even then it's smaller than reward tracks and pips. And these are normalized contributions which have lead to many problems, such as most players doing the absolute minimum required. Most players aren't interseted in contributing at all - they just do minimum effort to optimize their personal rewards. This has only made WvW worse over time, and lead to a LOT more toxicity. Not less.

    We can talk about the difference in what... 50 bags on a full night between a support spec and a full-tag spec (which has NOTHING to do with DPS specs - melee dps specs tag a lot worse than FB does...) but howmuch is that compared to your total rewards? Nearly nothing.

    And if they make tagging not exist entirely (sorry but right now the ONLY thing you need to do is "1" damage!) then you WILL get AFK-farming and minimum-effort farming through support. It's very very very trivial to support or apply support to 50+ players without even coming near danger, and without ever playing "well" or having the slighest motivation to play well. DPS classes that tag everything do get into danger.

    And by the way, I don't know about you but I'll quite literally pay gold to good supports that actually do their job when I struggle to find one. It's not rare to pay some gold to a FB or heal scrapper that actually ensures you stay alive. Just like the zergs would frequently pay scouts in the past. Good supports in pugs don't exist anymore. Almost all of them do minimum effort to survive because that's all that is required for them to get their loot.

    I will ignore everything about "qq no trinity". Healers and frontline / backline / dps distinction has ALWAYs been a thing in WvW. Tanks / healer / dps trinity isn't even a thing in pvp / wvw in terms of trinity. The game does these things fine and gives everyone self-sustain and self-reliance. The game never said healers and supports wouldn't exist and they've ALWAYS existed in WvW and pvp. They're also fine in terms of loot and when it comes to WvW, loot is very very very equalized. Samefor the rant about omagod only dps matters. That's just the result of linear and uninspired PvE design (which is literally what the majority of GW2 players ask for, who'd have thought).

    Bottom line is: I understand class balance is an ongoing, never-ending process, but I feel like there's a massive issue with the how the game's core concept functions and trying to address it only entices toxicity.

    Yeah no. You know what entices toxicity? Having these "casual" players get FULL REWARDS no matter how they play, even by semi-afking. That's why the game is full of pipfarming players and minimum-effort-required players that then cry the moment they booted for not performing.

    The only improvement I think they can / should make is add "1" unblockable damage to certain CC-skills, like mesmer pull. It's REALLY obnoxious that I can pull 5 players on mesmer into a spike, instantly killing all of them yet not getting rewards for any. Similar for other CC skills that don't do damage. Having these skills do a trivial amount of UNBLOCKABLE (don't make it kitten with aegis application and counter) damage to tag would be nice.

    But really - we have 500%+ difference between high-farm PvE rewards and WvW rewards, and sub 10% difference between most-tagging and least-tagging professions on WvW because tags barely contribute to your loot. Yet we'll rant about that asking for it to become more AFK-farm promoting? I don't think that's healthy and it'll definitely lead to more toxicity, not less ;)

  • Idril.8532Idril.8532 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    This is REQUIRED because WvW is already full of brain-afk leeches only looking to tag and bag. I'm sorry to put it this crude but if we allowed players to heal and not even get in combat with other players, we'd have healers sitting in the back applying regen to EVERYONE and expecting to get every bag anyone touches in the game. Even if their regen gets overwritten or only lasts 2 seconds and they won't even come close to anyone else. Hell, you'd probably have people AFK spamming regen on the way out of the keep to keep their participation and loot up while fully-afk. Considering the amount of people I see afk trebbing i wouldn't be suprised.

    Well, you cannot suppose I'm one of those 'brain-afk leeches' without even knowing me. As far as you know I am complaining because I can't focus only on healing.
    I love my f2-f3 abilities, but while I am in those 'stance' I cannot attack and if I go back on weapons f2-f3 goes on cooldown. Now, you can also properly explain things instead of just accusing of not being able to be a good support. The game doesn't really put in any effort to have you learn how to heal or tank, you have to go look for yourself on metabattle, which I did, but not everything is explained, something is given for granted or cannot be explained because of lenght reasons. There are many ways of saying things, I've always seen GW2's community as a pretty decent community so please don't be a toxic ranting person. Be helpful, send a video this way. In the end we all want to play and have fun. Maybe if you'd be so kind as to send me infos or a nice guide, I'll become a good support. You never know. But it's always better to be helpful instead of pointing the finger and telling ppl that if they were good, they wouldn't have problems. You complain because there are no good supports, maybe if they were to be greeted in another way, there would be more.

    Other than that, other mmoprgs have this kind of contribution and they are able to manage it, the only fear that ppl will start going afk is absurd. I, talking for myself, care about this topic because I want to play and have fun while healing. So, I am interested into playing, I wouldn't go afk. I have been farming harrier stuff for months, it's not like I'd go afk after all this work. Also if you play a scourge, it's quite easy to tag ppl from a safe point and then afk. I should probably just change my scourge stats to make her a support that can easily get contribution just by putting a layer of aoes on the ground.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @Idril.8532 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    This is REQUIRED because WvW is already full of brain-afk leeches only looking to tag and bag. I'm sorry to put it this crude but if we allowed players to heal and not even get in combat with other players, we'd have healers sitting in the back applying regen to EVERYONE and expecting to get every bag anyone touches in the game. Even if their regen gets overwritten or only lasts 2 seconds and they won't even come close to anyone else. Hell, you'd probably have people AFK spamming regen on the way out of the keep to keep their participation and loot up while fully-afk. Considering the amount of people I see afk trebbing i wouldn't be suprised.

    Well, you cannot suppose I'm one of those 'brain-afk leeches' without even knowing me. As far as you know I am complaining because I can't focus only on healing.

    I do not assume you're one of those. I am saying they exist, they're already around and anet can't promote this further because it leads to more toxicity than the difference between 100 and 80 lootbags when lootbags aren't even a relevant aspect of your WvW rewards. I do assume you will be negatively impacted by the few players that do decide to afk-leech. Everyone is.

    I love my f2-f3 abilities, but while I am in those 'stance' I cannot attack and if I go back on weapons f2-f3 goes on cooldown. Now, you can also properly explain things instead of just accusing of not being able to be a good support.

    What do you want me to say? Your F3 abilities tag. That wall of reflection tags half the range players in the group. The retal you apply to yourself makes you tag ANYONE if you get hit by their damage, too. And your retal on both elite stunbreak and F3 tome lets you tag. So if you use your F3 tome properly, and use weapons properly in between then you will tag 80%+ of the zerg. That's my experience and i'm at ... 420.000 kills?

    You literally need to do only 1 (!!!) hit of damage to players. A single proc of retal, them hitting YOU as FRONTLINE FIREBRAND just once is enough. So again, you can "attack" while in F3 tome : I get almost all my tags because of F3 tome reflect and retal.

    The game doesn't really put in any effort to have you learn how to heal or tank, you have to go look for yourself on metabattle, which I did, but not everything is explained, something is given for granted or cannot be explained because of lenght reasons.

    I agree the game doesn't "teach" you. You know who makes the content that teaches players? Hardcore players and veterans. But most of those have left the game. They're constantly being told that the game isn't for them, it's for casual players and they should find something else to play. I'll see if we can write a better guide for builds.vabbi.eu but it'll take time. I rather argue on the forums and get banned ;)

    And by the way - this is no different from most games. High-end content is created by the high-end players and trickles down. But GW2 doesn't have a healthy high-end community anymore. PvE is struggling. WvW is struggling. PvP is struggling. Is it a suprise that half the metabattle builds haven't been updated in years? Not really. There's no target audience for making or using them anymore.

    Other than that, other mmoprg have this kind of contribution and they are able to manage it, the only fear that ppl will start going afk is absurd. I, talking for myself, care about this topic because I want to play and have fun while healing. So, I am interested into playing, I wouldn't go afk. I have been farming harrier stuff for months, it's not like I'd go afk after all this work. Also if you play a scourge, it's quite easy to tag ppl from a safe point and then afk. I should probably just change my scourge stats to make her a support that can easily get contribution just by putting a layer of aoes on the ground.

    GW2 manages it. You get rewards by 1 tick of damage if you support in squad. You get most rewards from reward track and pips, no matter what you do.

    You assume afk pipfarming doesn't exist... Yet I can find you several videos teaching players exactly how to do it. We had players do a LOT of reward-based stuff AFK in this game. I literally know for a fact there are players botting trebs from / to SM for hours just because they get participation for it; because they keep trebbing even if SM has been outs for 20 minutes +. They just treb, AFK with auto clickers for hours to leech the loot.

    Push with your commander, use F3 tome and the reflects well and use the elite mantra. The retal and support you provide will give you 80%+ of all bags as long as the fight isn't one push. In one push fights you can provide stab through utilities, use F1 tome to CC and tag players after staff skills.

    You do NOT need to hit enemies to get a tag directly. Them hitting you ONCE at any point in the fight while you have retal is enough. People hitting themselves on a reflect is also enough. People hitting on reflect even allow you to tag their allies... Most of my tags on FB come from retal and F3 tome; not F1 tome or weapon skills.

  • Idril.8532Idril.8532 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    What do you want me to say? Your F3 abilities tag. That wall of reflection tags half the range players in the group. The retal you apply to yourself makes you tag ANYONE if you get hit by their damage, too. And your retal on both elite stunbreak and F3 tome lets you tag. So if you use your F3 tome properly, and use weapons properly in between then you will tag 80%+ of the zerg. That's my experience and i'm at ... 420.000 kills?

    You literally need to do only 1 (!!!) hit of damage to players. A single proc of retal, them hitting YOU as FRONTLINE FIREBRAND just once is enough. So again, you can "attack" while in F3 tome : I get almost all my tags because of F3 tome reflect and retal.

    That's what I want you to say :D Thank you <3

    I agree the game doesn't "teach" you. You know who makes the content that teaches players? Hardcore players and veterans. But most of those have left the game. They're constantly being told that the game isn't for them, it's for casual players and they should find something else to play. I'll see if we can write a better guide for builds.vabbi.eu but it'll take time. I rather argue on the forums and get banned ;)

    And by the way - this is no different from most games. High-end content is created by the high-end players and trickles down. But GW2 doesn't have a healthy high-end community anymore. PvE is struggling. WvW is struggling. PvP is struggling. Is it a suprise that half the metabattle builds haven't been updated in years? Not really. There's no target audience for making or using them anymore.

    By 'teaching' I mean that if support builds were easier to achieve, because of the stats requirements, ppl would have more time and more controlled situation were to start familiarizing with their build instead of being thrown into a zerg or into a high tier fractal without having ever experienced their class and be expected to know them by heart already. I am more of a practical person, I need to do stuff to learn, I always felt guides to be a little bit too detached but very helpful nonetheless.

    But, please stay and don't get banned :) Make a good guide for noobs like me that are willing to learn if they are given a chance.
    By the way, add a glossary cause I had to go and look for 'retal', I've started playing only later in HOT a few months before POF <3

    You assume afk pipfarming doesn't exist... Yet I can find you several videos teaching players exactly how to do it. We had players do a LOT of reward-based stuff AFK in this game. I literally know for a fact there are players botting trebs from / to SM for hours just because they get participation for it; because they keep trebbing even if SM has been outs for 20 minutes +. They just treb, AFK with auto clickers for hours to leech the loot.

    Why can't you report them and Anet ban them?

    Anyway, I knew you'd be very helpful, so, really, don't get banned and keep being helpful. I'll start checking the website you've given for more infos :) <3
    P.S.: the connection to the firebrand guide was denied ç_ç

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Idril.8532 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Too much effort overall. Veterans need to make content, builds, teach, inform, from baby steps all the way up. Meanwhile they don't get content. Often they don't even get appreciation. Instead they get flamed. SC and qT elitist. WvW elitists. PvP elitists. Metaslaves. Bad at the game need builds to carry them.

    At the same time, every pug also thinks their own builds are somehow better than meta. That they're the magical exception to the rule. Almost all of them are misinformed. If you ever so much as tell them in any tone or way that they just... don't have the insight or understanding they'll flip their kitten and be mad for days. I would know, it's why I get banned on a regular basis.

    Instead you have to do what... Show them 5 pages of math that proves it works out better which they'll ignore with "i can't do math, way too tryhard"?

    It's just too much effort, no reason, no appreciation, no fun, so why bother? It's clear our friendly community doesn't really value these players. Yet the moment these players - the backbone for every competitive and difficult gamemode - are gone, the casuals demand anet somehow fixes these issues they first created.

    I'm sorry that all this work has to fall on veterans. I've always felt like I missed something by stopping playing GW2 vanilla and I hate having to catch up by watching/reading guides. Why can't the game tell me? Guide me, teach me.. Maybe it would be even more boring for you veterans but at least you wouldn't have the burden to teach to every new person coming with a new expansion. I've been playing "constantly" since late HOT and yet, as you saw, I've learnt nothing. I am not good at support in WvW, I don't dare entering fractals and I am not even an efficient gold farmer. Why do I keep missing everything? T_T Out of sheer fear I haven't even tried mesmer, I dread the day somebody will ask me to tp them somewhere. I am even kitten at puzzle.

    Most hardcore players don't mind doing these things in themselves. Creating content and being involved in a game they love isn't something they "mind" doing. But there's no content (consideratoin) for us. Not enough balance, no challenges, no repetitive content. If you talk about that, you get an army of casual players telling you the game isn't for you.

    If you post meta builds and guides, anywhere, for any gamemode you get hundreds of players telling you what is wrong, that meta is bad, that it enforces or creates elitism... If you promote them you get the exact same. If you discuss other builds which are promoted as "better" you still get the same. If at ANY point you imply these players don't perform or understand the game well enough, it's considered toxic and repeatedly reported / downvoted / bashed. It's clear the community is more and more casual, and also not very welcoming to other (more hardcore) playstyles.

    I'm at a point where when it comes to WvW, we give out builds and anyone not willing to run them gets kicked. I don't have the time or energy to bother with everyone being different and unique. And even having simple rules : follow these builds or don't join which we enforce on our own raids which we host? Constant harassment and flame because hardcore elitists. But at the same time, most "elitists" aren't really as mean as people make them out to be.

    Show them you WANT to learn and improve and you'll take their advise and in my experience, there's plenty of groups willing to teach / help out. There are still regular leads where people will tell you what to do, and if you don't understand just ask. And don't give up when things don't work out the first time, just keep at it. People with realistic expectations who actually wanna improve are very welcome almost anywhere.

    I know for a FACT that every single WvW server wants more dedicated support pugs that want to improve and play FB. There's not ONE eu server that will say no to players wanting to play FB during open / pug raids. Improving in GW2 may seem daunting but you can just slap on a meta build, ask others what skills they use / when / why and play / improve from there.

    remove the http x.x. it's some basic site not on https atm. http://builds.vabbi.eu should work.

    I still can't have access to it, it says that ez.gw2discord.eu denied it. :/

    http://ezbuilds.x10host.com/builds/guardian.html

    Does this work?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    Part 2...

    2 v 2 gameplay with 3 support archetypes and 1 ranged damage archetype…

    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defender and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Corruptor

    vs

    https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defender and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blaster

    “A Blaster's primary power sets are designed specifically for ranged attacks.
    A Blaster's secondary power sets are designed for support via melee attacks, minor crowd control powers, or temporary self-buffs.
    A Corruptor's primary power sets are designed for ranged attacks.
    A Corruptor's secondary power sets are designed for buffing or debuffing.
    A Defender's primary power sets are designed specifically for buffing or debuffing.
    A Defender's secondary power sets are designed for ranged attacks.”

    As a support oriented player, I can say that the specs and mechanics to play any support role I have been given to use in gw2 is let’s say… not fun at all.
    I have a feeling that if we polled players here on what builds are more fun, fluid and rewarding to play, I doubt we would have many hands up for any support roles or builds.

    Edit- And let’s say we theorize by putting the shoe on the other foot... Let’s exchange some Druid designs with Deadeye mechanics... Take the deadeye rifle and create it to be a low damage weapon normally, with some utility, and create a Deadeye stance where players need to build malice to unlock heavy hitting rifle attacks. Now make some of these rifle attacks ground target skills and throw in a long channel root skill. The new Deadeye stance is also placed on a timer, so any skills need to be used within the allotted time...

    Let’s switch up Ventari and Scourge mechanics... The new Manifest Sand Shade is now a permanent entity that must be manually moved within the game world once summoned. All shade and slot skills are now centered around the shade...

    ...This game was designed with movement based combat in mind. We have dodges, positioning skills, ports and very few skills that root the caster... I can guarantee that players would be miffed if a lot more elite specs and builds functioned like Druid or Ventari. Just saying.

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    On the topic of things returning, how about my beloved Rune of Durability?

  • @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp
    Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others.

    First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky.
    Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI)
    Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself

    The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this.

    The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all.

    Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved.

    The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp
    Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others.

    First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky.
    Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI)
    Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself

    The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this.

    The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all.

    Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved.

    The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents.

    A lot of the things you wrote are plain wrong. Tempest and firebrand have the same health. The armor value really isn't that much of a difference, tempest takes about 10% more damage which with the tempest protection trait almost evens out. Firebrand's healing is almost all outgoing healing rather than self-healing. What makes firebrand so good is that it has answers for EVERYTHING. On top of that, you can help players past healing by preventing a LOT of damage especially at a higher level.

    You have several stunbreaks for allies, allowing you to repeatedly save your DPS specs even if they get caught. Also stab. Also cleanse. Also aegis spam rather than healing up the hits if they take them. On top of that, insane defensives (reflects, taunts, more stab, more toughness, more healing, great cleanse, great boonuptime). Most other supports don't come close and active defenses (e.g. stab, aegis, stunbreak) allowing you to avoid damgae has always been stronger than healing up the damage you unavoidably take in GW2.

    FB has no problems healing more than druid in PvE. You dont' need F2 tome to heal more than a druid; and a druid is limited by CA too. The reason it's bad is a lack of offensive buffs (25 might / alac / ...), dps modifiers, spirits, ... It can still replace 2nd druid and do very well especially on some bosses.

    Tempest heals more than FB but only if its overloads don't get interupted. Not feasible in high end PvP. It also doesn't matter if it heals more, if a FB uses their active damage mitigation then they are plain better. A lot better. Take a warrior going into rampage to smack my necro. I can quite literally block / avoid all of its hits and my nec can be full hp the moment the warrior leaves rampage if he dodges once. A tempest can heal - a huge amount - and cleanse great condies, but he'll use half his CD's to heal up the nec where i'll just apply 3 blocks. A tempest can peel and help you survive burst, but if you get focussed hard they can't do much to outheal a burst. A FB can prevent / mitigate half the burst, stunbreak you several times in a row, remove all the condies and if you survive heal you too. If you don't? Well there's always signet of mercy since MI got nerfed into the ground.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Idril.8532 said:
    I should give it another chance then, I left her to rot while I was grinding harrier accessories for her with other dps characters, but I do not understand why a healer should tag at all.

    In other games were I played pvp, if you were a healer, your contribution wasn't based on you tagging enemy players. Why should you be 'judged' on a dps-base if you are not one? Healer FB are not as efficient as Scourge, for example, in tagging, you said it yourself. So, what's the point of tagging? I'm not asking to change the class, I can keep on reflecting and all, but be judged for my actual role.

    Tagging is bot a dps based thing. Its rather a technical thing. Atm the game does not against enemy you foght except you hit them once before they die. Its to determine if you fought that enemy.
    They reduced the amount of dmg for contribution by a significant margin so you will get loot even when mainly supporting but you have to tag atleast once do the game knows from what you will get your loot from.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    x.x, yes please make more healing class, so we will overheal in pvp instead of killing, 5 healers from each side, let us run and practice healing while barely scratching each other. Maybe we can push others from point with belly fight or something. Also while we are on this please make a 'king of hill' mod. Would be fun to hold single point with healing classes. while pushing others down by using very specific belly move. ;)

    I gotta stop .

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The thing is, you could entirely delete Tome Of Resolve from Firebrand, and it would likely still be a better support than Tempest is.

  • @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

    I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp
    Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others.

    First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky.
    Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI)
    Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself

    The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this.

    The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all.

    Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved.

    The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents.

    A lot of the things you wrote are plain wrong. Tempest and firebrand have the same health. The armor value really isn't that much of a difference, tempest takes about 10% more damage which with the tempest protection trait almost evens out. Firebrand's healing is almost all outgoing healing rather than self-healing. What makes firebrand so good is that it has answers for EVERYTHING. On top of that, you can help players past healing by preventing a LOT of damage especially at a higher level.

    You have several stunbreaks for allies, allowing you to repeatedly save your DPS specs even if they get caught. Also stab. Also cleanse. Also aegis spam rather than healing up the hits if they take them. On top of that, insane defensives (reflects, taunts, more stab, more toughness, more healing, great cleanse, great boonuptime). Most other supports don't come close and active defenses (e.g. stab, aegis, stunbreak) allowing you to avoid damgae has always been stronger than healing up the damage you unavoidably take in GW2.

    FB has no problems healing more than druid in PvE. You dont' need F2 tome to heal more than a druid; and a druid is limited by CA too. The reason it's bad is a lack of offensive buffs (25 might / alac / ...), dps modifiers, spirits, ... It can still replace 2nd druid and do very well especially on some bosses.

    Tempest heals more than FB but only if its overloads don't get interupted. Not feasible in high end PvP. It also doesn't matter if it heals more, if a FB uses their active damage mitigation then they are plain better. A lot better. Take a warrior going into rampage to smack my necro. I can quite literally block / avoid all of its hits and my nec can be full hp the moment the warrior leaves rampage if he dodges once. A tempest can heal - a huge amount - and cleanse great condies, but he'll use half his CD's to heal up the nec where i'll just apply 3 blocks. A tempest can peel and help you survive burst, but if you get focussed hard they can't do much to outheal a burst. A FB can prevent / mitigate half the burst, stunbreak you several times in a row, remove all the condies and if you survive heal you too. If you don't? Well there's always signet of mercy since MI got nerfed into the ground.

    I compared the PvP Firebrand with an plain Tempest if this is fair is question but I don't think it is completely wrong
    The whole list what F3 does I didn't saw a reason the repeat it it just so it comes above what I said increasing it survivability further and the survivability of the teammates same goes for the shield of absorption.

    Yes In the FB you have another skill for healing but it has also a CD of 50s or so Tempest is just quicker ready again which I also said is only good for some PvE corners but not for PvP other classes are better through dps boons and better condi cleansing and better protection.

    I didn't compare FB or Tempest to Druids heal power because simple reason... I can't I'm still leveling my ranger .

    The whole question of the thread was about more healing classes in PvP and like you said FB is a even better supporter then a healer . In general I die as FB 0-2 in a match while as DD even when winning 2-5 while my winning chance increase about 70% because as FB because I sit most of the time on the middle control point and blocking it.

    The some degree this is also the enemies fault by simply not grouping together and over powering me which in higher level pvp they do the rest is the skills and the munition system fault.

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