Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

Recommended Posts

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@"Nick.6972" said:

The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

Current state of affairs:
  • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
  • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
  • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
  • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from
one or more aspects of ongoing development
, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

You said it better than me. That is effectively what I meant, just worded a bit incorrectly.

I'm genuinely happy that after all of the discussion after the past few years that we've come to the same ideology/solution/insert other words here.

We more or less do at this point, but for the record, I still believe that raids as they stand now are not sustainable - and will probably not stand the test of time in the game. I would like to see raids as part of the game, but I simply do not see how they can keep hardcore raiders engaged long term. It isn't really a change of heart on my part - just a realization that they simply do not have the resources at ANet to do them in a way that will keep enough players in them long term.

And, with that in mind, I do strongly believe that any new developmental resources dedicated to raids (which again, should come after any additions to the LS teams who obviously need it right now) would need to first and foremost be used to add easy modes to existing raids - to widen the pool of raiders and justify any future work.

I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tyson.5160 said:I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.

Agreed and to extend the argumentation: We won't see any easy mode raids neither.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.

Agreed and to extend the argumentation: We won't see any easy mode raids neither.

I’ve come to terms with this too, honestly I should just be happy that I get Living World every couple of months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss cock block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

So this is my word of advice to anet again it is not what they should do but I hope they keep in mind. When they get these new players for these new awesome expansions. Please consider you have lots of noobs that hear raid. omg raid!? i want to try that. And if you put the first wing into a big wall where you are just like wow eff this I am not going to put up with this 'toxic community' . Meanwhile you have the people saying "oh this is easy , oh man why did anet do this?" remember, we are not all veterans here . Take the opportunity to scavenger for new raid members during these easy wings . And I think anet should build up mechanics . It may sound easy but after 4-5 bosses of brain training the raiders... They can handle it. But throwing 5-6 mechanics that not anyone would be able to understand at once... Man that's painful. Go back to basics such as dodging out of circles, or maybe a break bar without a LETHAL consequence but one that is going to hurt you bad. That is another thing anet. Please remember not everything has to be a 90% - 100% life hit. Make healers be able to heal something or do their job to save someone that has troubles with a mechanic rather then insta kill them.

So overall anet,1) make it a tier progression with each expansion. Give time for people to recruit or get used to the game mechanics. 1 wing should build into a stack of mechanics learned. Not first boss expecting 4-5 mechanics the typical person is not used to.2) make CMs yet (did not have this above) and keep them relatively hard for those that have a heart for challenges.3) Make the rewards better or continuous for CMs so that they can also have groups be found and not just a one time fling.

Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kameko.8314 said:I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

@Kameko.8314 said:

So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

@Kameko.8314 said:

Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

@Kameko.8314 said:Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:

  • find a guild
  • practice with guild
  • get experience and kill proofs
  • PUG if need be

If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Kameko.8314 said:I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

@Kameko.8314 said:Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:
  • find a guild
  • practice with guild
  • get experience and kill proofs
  • PUG if need be

If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

Tbh a mode that only gives exotics blues and yellows thats alot easier and is repeatable can very well have value to justify making.

Its just the format in which they would release it and how would that impact the normal mode that makes it unlikely.

But theres definitely a market for "just the experience" raids.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What does a guild usually ask you straight up? Do you ahve > @Cyninja.2954 said:

@Kameko.8314 said:I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

@Kameko.8314 said:Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:
  • find a guild
  • practice with guild
  • get experience and kill proofs
  • PUG if need be

If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

There is probably one difference between that situation and mine however. It is something that is not very controllable either. The time zone. Unfortunately I live in a dead one so does make pugging that much harder and perhaps if it was different timing sure it would be easier and maybe that is just the variable that makes it not so well in my case or some of the other people I know. We are making a group for our time zone and going slow again through everything but it is definitely a process.

So that is probably the biggest variable is the time of day in which you can play. And the small group that I have. Anyway, the idea that I think they should have some kind of 'prep' or beginners/easy mode would be good. It would allow people to experience something that they maybe could not otherwise do. In a way like fractals you have 4 tiers, and I'm not saying raids should be the same but they have some mechanics negated from the 4th tier or even challenge mote. And it may introduce more people onto the scene and let them enjoy part of the game they always wanted to do.

I get the hardcore raiders want hard content (CM) , i get people want a challenge (probably normal is a fair challenge to most) , and then people that want to test the waters or build understanding (an easy mode). And once you do CM mode boom the groups are gone. (again my time zone anyway) I haven't seen one ambition for CMs after the first month or so of the raid being out. Because there is nothing to help people go back other then smashing their heads more. Maybe a weekly reset in the rewards for CM would work? Something valuable but nothing too much, just to say hey go out and help others that need it.Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot whores' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kameko.8314" said:Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot kitten' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

Magenetite shards and Gaeting Crystals are meaningless. The only thing of actual value in raids is Legendary Insights for the legendary armor. If you start handing those out in easy mode raids, you might as well remove normal raids. If you don't, no one will do easy mode raids. At least not enough people to warrant the work to implement them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kameko.8314" said:Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot kitten' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

Magenetite shards and Gaeting Crystals are meaningless. The only thing of actual value in raids is Legendary Insights for the legendary armor. If you start handing those out in easy mode raids, you might as well remove normal raids. If you don't, no one will do easy mode raids. At least not enough people to warrant the work to implement them.

I think that may be a misconception . Do not underestimate the power of fashion wars. Not sure, but personally I have all the LI I need/want. So I am more concerned with the currencies and the skins. Maybe others as well for 'fashion wars' . (Totally agree with you that they should not hand out LI -- This I can agree with) They can gain the currency for skins. They can say they got to raid with some friends. Then one day they might go and say hey let's try normal now. It has a few more mechanics but we get the 'main idea' behind this boss. Then the group will go and tackle the encounter for their LI and once they do that perhaps they will get eased off of 'easy mode'. But it would have done its purpose which is to get more people interested or foot in the door for raids. Also easy modes may not be a long term thing for we know this game doesn't always just stick with one thing, they are flexible. So it could be for a while. i.e. story legendaries for gen 2. They could say well, I guess the raid population is booming. Ask if they should keep easy mode and get a feel of how many are actually participating in it. If it is not many they can scap, if the community loves it they should probably keep in place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the devs should just forget about Raids and Focus on Fractals instead...you have your easy low level fractals for the casual players and you also have the same fractals with higher levels for the hardcore players, everyone can play the content, is a win for all players....the thing is that Raids are jst not fun for the majority of players, i am all about hard content, but i just dont have the time needed to find a training guild, rebuild my main or in the worst case relearn a whole new class cause my main might be obsolete, learn the boss "dance" and all its phases, etc...thats just way to much time that many people cant devote to the game, while Fractals/Dungeons you just get on with 4 friends or randoms and clear without much trouble if the players are atleast decent have some fun and laughs and thats it...if Raids had a solo mode, at this point I would probably had done it with all the challange modes and everything, put find not 4 but other 9 people is really not gonna happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Felipe.1807" said:I guess the devs should just forget about Raids and Focus on Fractals instead...you have your easy low level fractals for the casual players and you also have the same fractals with higher levels for the hardcore players, everyone can play the content, is a win for all players....the thing is that Raids are jst not fun for the majority of players, i am all about hard content, but i just dont have the time needed to find a training guild, rebuild my main or in the worst case relearn a whole new class cause my main might be obsolete, learn the boss "dance" and all its phases, etc...thats just way to much time that many people cant devote to the game, while Fractals/Dungeons you just get on with 4 friends or randoms and clear without much trouble if the players are atleast decent have some fun and laughs and thats it...if Raids had a solo mode, at this point I would probably had done it with all the challange modes and everything, put find not 4 but other 9 people is really not gonna happen.

I haven't been able to bring myself to enter a fractal for the better part of a year because of how inherently uninteresting they are right down to their core basic design even with challenge modes 99 and 100.

Hard pass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it. If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aridon.8362 said:I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it. If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

Agree with you except the social anxiety part, you don’t just get over an anxiety and it’s a bit disrespectful to state otherwise. What people need is more acceptance and compassion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@"Nick.6972" said:

The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

Current state of affairs:
  • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
  • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
  • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
  • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from
one or more aspects of ongoing development
, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

Five months for a good raid would be ok. Obviously 3 months would be better. Currently ya looking at 9-10 months.

Easy mode solves nothing, Escort and w4 except deimos are easy and I dont see armies of new players do those. Fractals have a 4 tiered system with options for CMS and those also receive little. Hell we dont even get CMS with fractals anymore. Of course I am against tiered raids.

LS has a ridiculous amount of focus from Anet and it is still not enough? Meanwhile pvp/wvw/instanced content all suffer. Tell me which is the truely unsustainable form of content than ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it.
If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

Agree with you except the social anxiety part, you don’t just get over an anxiety and it’s a bit disrespectful to state otherwise. What people need is more acceptance and compassion.

No they don't. I get that you don't just "get over" anxiety, that's fine.

You should also get that if I give players the choice between joining discord and not joining discord, most of them will not. I happily do a training raid, but if I do it i'd rather have all players show commitment to the group and frequently I want them on voice so I can call out what they need to do. It makes the whole thing a LOT faster and smoother.

Acceptance and compassion goes both ways. Not every group needs to cater to your needs, and if groups don't cater to your needs that's perfectly fine. If there are no groups that cater to your preferences then perhaps you are in fact too demanding.

Acceptance and compassion includes understanding that sometimes... some groups or players or playstyles or ... aren't for you.

I'm certain that almost all the players that refuse to join discords / ts's aren't having social anxiety. Most of them simply prefer not to, and that's fine. But you don't have to play with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"qwerty.8943" said:I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.

Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@phs.6089 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.

Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@phs.6089 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.

Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

Because that works very well in fractals. Oh wait that has been already discussed like 50 pages ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Linken.6345 said:

I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

  1. As a person that knows a 'bit' of programming, I don't see any issue to add dozen 'if' functions to existing content.(If someone thinks they coded ever single fractal from scratches, you are wrong, it's one base code, with several 'if's)

    2.People don't ask to make current raids with current reward easy, they ask for easy mod, with less reward, most of them don't even care of achievements and legendary armor.

So why? My guess is there would be people that would learn raids, making that 'specific' feel of raiders to gone. This one reasonable explanation to me atm

@maddoctor.2738 said:

Because that works very well in fractals. Oh wait that has been already discussed like 50 pages ago.

The problem with fractals they are Overdone. 4 tiers with 2 layers in each. When there would have been more then enough to have 2 tiers+ CMs.But they were added times there was no end game content and this proves my words. Adding dozen 'if' functions to exiting content, to make it seems like a lot of new things, is easy.They codded core fractal bosses and fights add instabilities(main work), test it, polish a single version of each, then couple of interns over the breakfast add those 'if' functions following task and numbers given by project manager. Gave it numbers and boom 100 new instances for your guys to clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...