How often or not could we see class mechanic reworks like the mesmer one? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How often or not could we see class mechanic reworks like the mesmer one?

This is hightly subjective but imho some classes are more halted and restricted by their limitations than fun. An example would be thief's resource innitiative, it limits the rotation the class could have because generating innitiative isnt really as much of a thing and imo it leads to the class having very very simplistic rotations in pve and being limited to how u can buff or nerf it because the good things u end up pressing are 2 or 3 buttons.

This isnt a "rework thief" thread btw just an example of a class being rather limited in some aspect and how common or uncommon these class reworks would be.

Tagged:

Comments

  • There isn't a solid answer to this because profession mechanics vary a TITANIC amount in their complexity on the back end. Some are much easier to implement than others, but baseline profession mechanic re-works are usually fairly tough. That is not to say we will not make them, but that the baseline ones for a profession can take quite a bit of time.

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There isn't a solid answer to this because profession mechanics vary a TITANIC amount in their complexity on the back end. Some are much easier to implement than others, but baseline profession mechanic re-works are usually fairly tough. That is not to say we will not make them, but that the baseline ones for a profession can take quite a bit of time.

    I assume that applies to future elite specs as well. For example, if you were to offer an elementalist elite spec without attunements (I'm not even sure if that is doable), that would require way too much work as well, wouldn't it?

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:

    As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap).

    I feel like somewhere..Elementalist are screaming at you right now XD

    On topic.
    Do you guys have any plans to look at base classes across the game to make them a bit more competitive with the Elite specs?
    Currently , from a pvp standpoint, many of the base classes seem like they have no place in any mode of the game. Like base revanent for example or base engineer.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Anything that changes the profession mechanic UI (that area where the F1-F4/5 skills live) tends to be a lot of work. When the original game was built, that part of the UI wasn't really made to be very flexible. As a result, any time we need to change it, it takes work from both artists and programmers who are familiar with the nuances of the underlying system.

    As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap). It's similar to what you are suggesting and probably would have involved similar amounts of work to change the profession UI. Although, I think Weaver was probably just as (or more) difficult due to the sheer number of extra skills!

    One of my main points of criticism for the elementalist class is that they are stuck with the attunement system. Not that I dislike it: dancing between different elements is certainly an interesting, jack-of-all-trades playstyle. But this system also prevents me from creating specialized roles with specialized themes, like, say, a fully dedicated earth tank or a fully dedicated fire nuker. I'd say the same criticism can be applied to some other professions (a GW1-ish mesmer without clones or phantasms doesn't exist), but none of those are as gameplay-restrictive, I think.

    Another problem with that is the difficulty/ complexity required to play the class. Not all people are into more complex professions with more demanding skill rotations, and I find it weird how the very popular "traditional wizard" class has no simpler, more relaxing build option, especially in contrast with the more abstract Mesmer class, which does have plenty of easy-to-play builds. If we look at other classes, like the guardian for example, they can have more demanding skill rotations with the firebrand and its high amount of tome skills (which is similar to elementalist in that regard), but if a player does not enjoys that level of complexity, they can always fallback to dragonhunter or to the original guardian and play in a more relaxed way. Elementalist players do not have that option.

    Weaver's mechanics are very interesting, and the pitched idea you mentioned is as well, but they only add up to the overall complexity of the class.

  • Hi all,

    Hope this thread will fit the idea as it is also about skills/mechanic and themed builds(themes are also for rp and similiar so it would be a good place)

    You have mentioned class mechanic changes, I have also noticed that "New elite specc ideas" are pretty often posted by people, but what if we could do it from a different way than we got it now?
    Instead of reworking base classes, introducing new elite specs etc, how about just twerking them so they can be playable in their own different way (not sure about rest, but base necro is pretty fun and unique I think) and leaving them be to create a side system, basically more into RP/Theme/Lore and adding also additional twerks that would either bring big or small impact.

    What I'm talking about is - we got 3 spots for specializations, elite would stay elite, but (ok I know, LOTS of work here, but perhaps in the future?) each standard spec could bring a questline dedicated to it and a themed place you can stay/tp in whenever you want, a hideout perhaps. You could have only one "Themed"(currently no name for it in my head) spec without possibility to change it unless Diamonds or something, just to not get swaps all the time and make it more unique
    .
    1st Example - Charr Elementalist could get himself a questline to change his Fire specc into' Flame Legion Shaman' or "Molten Fire" or something - anyway based on Flame Legion. This would require to Join Flame Legion and do their questline to achieve this. Effect would be to change Specc visually+either change traits there to brand new ones or just change their effect. It's not about bumping the dmg, because GW is working fine with holding standards of not hitting for millions and it's cool. The Flame Legion new spec would change the mechanics of basic fire to e,g. add a puddle of lava where you spells land, bring bigger impact like changing skills to new graphics+effects than standard weapon skills had, improve them in a different, more destructive way so the specc could be total dps and 0 support, then a different specc could be total support and 0 dps, and of course unlock possibility to travel to some nice big good looking Flame Legion hideout/keep somewhere .Visually could be good if each specc like that, could have something that you can recognize it for, like Flame hands from FL shamans(they look good:D)

    2nd Example - Let's call it Dhuum's FIngers - cast of necro's that worship Dhuum, some nasty hideout in one of Dhuum's reachable places, no idea on the visual but he could get a bump to add more Dhuum's fire/other nasty tricks to attacks;] (was thinking about Faerun warlocks here) just use part of his power as his own, or try to recreate his powers...you know cult of a guys that await Dhuum's comeback but possibily never gonna see it. Other specc could make blood magic a typical vampire etc... lots of things could be changed to these old speccs and additionaly give some more fun than just changing the specc. Whole Keep/Hideout/place+quests all this stuff would make it all more unique.

    All this is a nice boost not only to mechanic but also could help avoid the technically hard ones to change and boost lore/quests/rp and mechanics at the same time

    What do you think about it, instead of reworking base mechanics that seem to be hard, or just dropping new elite specs? For me sounds like nice alternative that some games tried to pick up with a good or bad effect(good ones were present in NWN2 RP servers, WOW Legion Expansion with the hideouts themed to your build and POE)

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Anything that changes the profession mechanic UI (that area where the F1-F4/5 skills live) tends to be a lot of work. When the original game was built, that part of the UI wasn't really made to be very flexible. As a result, any time we need to change it, it takes work from both artists and programmers who are familiar with the nuances of the underlying system.

    As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap). It's similar to what you are suggesting and probably would have involved similar amounts of work to change the profession UI. Although, I think Weaver was probably just as (or more) difficult due to the sheer number of extra skills!

    I was reading a lot of post because I didn't want to be unjust AND I see this ^.^, so I think I wasn't unjust after all ^.^...
    I've played with 4 classes: Elementalist (Weaver and Temepst), Ranger (Druid), Revenant and Mesmer (Chrono) AND the Elementalist is the most dificult class to play, besides it doesn't have the best DPS to balance that.

    I love the mechanics, I think its makes sense the elemetalist has a lower HP and I wouldn't change the difficult to play if that compensated with DPS and because that I see so many people unsatisfied with the class and I see so many people saying "delete your elementalist" or "don't waste your time with that class", besides a lot of sites, some famous, saying "that class is not a meta"... I just want the thing should be balanced. Like the other games, the "Mage" is the weakest, but it has the better AoE DPS. Almost every classes have a good AoE DPS (in GW2) and a fast cast too. Elementalist has the lowest cast to do almost the same DPS than the other classes and they're weak, unlike others classes with a good AoE DPS, they're killed while they're casting and nothing of these is compensed.

    ArenaNet, I just saying: Can we get a better DPS (just a little bit)? Or I think we'll see no more Elementalist in GW2... Just Mesmers, Engineers, Thiefs and Rangers (Druids) and I think a RPG we have to have the magic class and not just melee, tank and healer...

  • @Heimdallr.5421 said:
    Hi all,

    What I'm talking about is - we got 3 spots for specializations, elite would stay elite, but (ok I know, LOTS of work here, but perhaps in the future?) each standard spec could bring a questline dedicated to it and a themed place you can stay/tp in whenever you want, a hideout perhaps. You could have only one "Themed"(currently no name for it in my head) spec without possibility to change it unless Diamonds or something, just to not get swaps all the time and make it more unique

    I was think the same thing!!!! I'd LOVE to do a Quest where the boss is the master of my clas and as a reward I'd recieve a ultimate skill ^.^

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Anything that changes the profession mechanic UI (that area where the F1-F4/5 skills live) tends to be a lot of work. When the original game was built, that part of the UI wasn't really made to be very flexible. As a result, any time we need to change it, it takes work from both artists and programmers who are familiar with the nuances of the underlying system.

    As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap). It's similar to what you are suggesting and probably would have involved similar amounts of work to change the profession UI. Although, I think Weaver was probably just as (or more) difficult due to the sheer number of extra skills!

    Another thing (^.^): In my navigation between the sites I saw some players saying the Elementalist had a good DPS and because some players "complain" and after that came this "nerf". I think with a good tank and a good helaer its normal the "AoE class" has a better DPS than other classes... Other classes are easier to soloing and survive better... I just claim for balance ^.^.

  • Regarding Elementalist...I know the pain cause I'm a reaper. I love the class but I would not like to make it easier, just to hit harder. I bet that better players using elementalists also would not like to make things simplier. Many games simplied things and suddenly...they became only games. Trust me, it's awesome thing when you master your class and you burst the hell outta someone and he is like - "how the hell did he kill me" or "how the hell he did that dps"
    The more 'specific' not simple the class is, the better as it makes it unique. I personally love elementalist and how much possibilities you have, especially weaver and the fact that you can have them way more+create spells based on attunments(reminds me of Invoker in Dota) At least in MY opinion, classes should be difficult, specific, unique - the only thing that can be changed is as you have mentioned before, DPS - Yes, call me demanding but..adding pure numbers to skills is not the way.

    I think classes that lack dps should make the numbers with their class specific stuff like elementalist could be the combo guy that has lots of combos to do and they give the damage and unique things like stuns, slows (master of cc's). I know he has the possibility but I think maxing this way out and putting bigger pressure on it, could make this class the most skill demanding, tricky kitten ever;]
    Power reaper could for example do higher dps to chilled or feared guys and he could have the way to terrify bosses(debuff not an actual fear cause it would be too op, but in pvp it could be fear) I think that adding simple numbers to skills would not do the trick, it would only make your class a second deadeye...

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Anything that changes the profession mechanic UI (that area where the F1-F4/5 skills live) tends to be a lot of work. When the original game was built, that part of the UI wasn't really made to be very flexible. As a result, any time we need to change it, it takes work from both artists and programmers who are familiar with the nuances of the underlying system.

    As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap). It's similar to what you are suggesting and probably would have involved similar amounts of work to change the profession UI. Although, I think Weaver was probably just as (or more) difficult due to the sheer number of extra skills!

    Aw Gosh ! I would have loved seeing that on ele instead of weaver -- picking 2 attunement such as revenant legends ... MEh i'm sad now thank you :D

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Heimdallr.5421 said:
    Regarding Elementalist...I know the pain cause I'm a reaper. I love the class but I would not like to make it easier, just to hit harder. I bet that better players using elementalists also would not like to make things simplier. Many games simplied things and suddenly...they became only games. Trust me, it's awesome thing when you master your class and you burst the hell outta someone and he is like - "how the hell did he kill me" or "how the hell he did that dps"
    The more 'specific' not simple the class is, the better as it makes it unique. I personally love elementalist and how much possibilities you have, especially weaver and the fact that you can have them way more+create spells based on attunments(reminds me of Invoker in Dota) At least in MY opinion, classes should be difficult, specific, unique - the only thing that can be changed is as you have mentioned before, DPS - Yes, call me demanding but..adding pure numbers to skills is not the way.

    I used to think like you, but nowadays I'd rather have a more relaxed medium-difficulty build to play than a "oh my god, look at how many hours I've spent to master this build!" class. People have different opinions, not everyone has the same time to spend into the game, not everyone wants to be locked out of their favourite theme because it's restricted to hardcore players with plenty of time to spend, and some simply enjoy the beauty of simplicity. Even big companies like Riot Games, who have once wished to make ALL their new champs hard to play, have long admitted how that strategy's a mistake.

    Keep in mind that I'm not advocating that an ENTIRE profession should be easy to play - instead, I'm saying some builds should be intentionally easier and others intentionally harder. But that'll be hard to achieve if some professions are STUCK with 20 weapon skills, won't it? You see, that's the beauty of elite specs like Firebrand: they're OPTIONAL. Some players love it, others do not love it, both are happy. I'm perfectly happy sticking to my DH and bursting enemies down with greatsword and traps. Others are happy they have so many skills to rotate through.

    I'm also not asking for something shallow nor something generic. That is the big mistake that Anet did with their New Player Experience patch long time ago. It's perfectly possible to have a class build that is easy to get into while still being hard to master; one that is satisfying to pull off right from the go while still having plenty of nuance for better players to take advantage of.

    Thematically, the elementalist is my favourite profession in this game, and was my main for the first 2 years of the game. But at the time, I was willing to put a massive amount of effort into mastering it (I'm not anymore, for many different reasons), and I do not feel it's worth doing so (because, in the end, the elementalist needs to be as balanced as every other profession, so why bother putting additional effort into it?). Instead, I migrated to Guardian and Revenant (magical knights are my second favourite theme) because they offer me simpler, more satisfying playstyles while still having enough nuance and variety to keep me from getting bored (guardian more so than revenant due to being more polished).

    The traditional mage spellcaster is too popular of an archetype to be forever stuck to a niche, hardcore playstyle model, imo.

  • Would you be able to tell us how many classes you're looking at possibly doing a mechanic rework on? Do you have some that you know you'll be doing a re-work on? Are there any game-wide mechanics you're looking at reworking? Are there any mechanics you're looking at making closer across the board. For example the differences between FB and Mesmer mantras would you make Mesmer's mantras have a last charge be different like how FB's is?

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭

    Very interesting question.

  • @DiogoSilva.7089 said:
    The traditional mage spellcaster is too popular of an archetype to be forever stuck to a niche, hardcore playstyle model, imo.

    I am also not very keen on the jack-of-all-trades for ele and would like a more traditional aoe powerhouse mage/ele option that doesn't get nerfed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Keriana.9635 said:

    @DiogoSilva.7089 said:
    The traditional mage spellcaster is too popular of an archetype to be forever stuck to a niche, hardcore playstyle model, imo.

    I am also not very keen on the jack-of-all-trades for ele and would like a more traditional aoe powerhouse mage/ele option that doesn't get nerfed.

    Technically what you want already exist and have existed since launch. The issue is that this traditionnal powerhouse mage/ele is traditionnally squishy and die easily in PvP setting which is why players don't see it as "viable". You have what you want but you can't exploit it which is why playing elementalist tend to be frustrating.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Keriana.9635 said:

    @DiogoSilva.7089 said:
    The traditional mage spellcaster is too popular of an archetype to be forever stuck to a niche, hardcore playstyle model, imo.

    I am also not very keen on the jack-of-all-trades for ele and would like a more traditional aoe powerhouse mage/ele option that doesn't get nerfed.

    Thats been ele since forever, an aoe powerhouse. Also, aoe and single target aremt as much of a thing in this game as in other mmos.
    Very few builds and classes dont have aoe most of the classes also use their aoes as main part of their rotation in st as well.

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Technically what you want already exist and have existed since launch. The issue is that this traditionnal powerhouse mage/ele is traditionnally squishy and die easily in PvP setting which is why players don't see it as "viable". You have what you want but you can't exploit it which is why playing elementalist tend to be frustrating.

    That's because the elementalist is stuck with the attunement system, so they have to spend time healing (requires defensive stats), dealing condition damage (burn from fire and bleeding from earth) or having a variety of utility spells that may not support an offensive spellcaster while wasting time NOT being on their burst/ dps attunement.

    Now imagine a spellcaster with a different profession mechanic, where no matter what you're doing, you're never locked out of your dps skills for 10 seconds, and you always have some defensive, non-healing reliant skills to defend yourself. Like the Mesmer, which has damage AND evades.

  • @DiogoSilva.7089 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Technically what you want already exist and have existed since launch. The issue is that this traditionnal powerhouse mage/ele is traditionnally squishy and die easily in PvP setting which is why players don't see it as "viable". You have what you want but you can't exploit it which is why playing elementalist tend to be frustrating.

    That's because the elementalist is stuck with the attunement system, so they have to spend time healing (requires defensive stats), dealing condition damage (burn from fire and bleeding from earth) or having a variety of utility spells that may not support an offensive spellcaster while wasting time NOT being on their burst/ dps attunement.

    Now imagine a spellcaster with a different profession mechanic, where no matter what you're doing, you're never locked out of your dps skills for 10 seconds, and you always have some defensive, non-healing reliant skills to defend yourself. Like the Mesmer, which has damage AND evades.

    And more HP.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.