k/d ratio. any other ratio we can replace this with? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

k/d ratio. any other ratio we can replace this with?

Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

civil discussion only.

Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

<1

Comments

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    civil discussion only.

    Not sure why you expect civil discussion. Never happens on these boards. Lol

  • Serkit.7836Serkit.7836 Member ✭✭
    edited August 26, 2018

    One ratio I personally like is something I call "kdr ratio", which is equivalent to kdr_of_server_a/kdr_of_server_b from the most recent matchup of a and b. If you unravel it into all of the components you get (kills_a*deaths_b)/(kills_b*deaths_a). While a match is still occurring, you'd have 6 of these ratios with half being the inverse of the other half.
    I actually have a spreadsheet which keeps track of the kdr ratios after every match and finds the average kdr ratio of a given (NA) server. The end result of the spreadsheet is a chart which has average kdr ratio on the vertical axis and server name on the horizontal axis. The chart currently looks like this (server names have been removed): https://imgur.com/a/bYl7Ax0 . Three of the columns are a bit off what they "should" be due to one server which hasn't been matched against two others. From the chart you can interpret that the server with the highest average kdr ratio gets around 220% the kdr of its opponents on average while the lowest gets around 60% the kdr of its opponents on average.

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  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    thats actually something. no names of servers though?

    thinking more of like

    (k/t) / (d/a)

    kills over time /deaths over activity within the match.

    ticks every 5 mins as tics

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • k/d ratio. any other ratio we can replace this with?

    For what purpose?

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't get it

    Ferguson's Crossing Server Leader

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  • I'd like to see a scoring efficiency rating, like Points / Play Hour. ArenaNet would have to mask it though. If we had exact numbers, we would be able to calculate play hours for a server. It would have to be something like: Poor, Below Average, Average, Above Average, Good...

    I'd like to see KDR disappear though. It encourages too many people to avoid fights they are uncertain about. Keeping track of just Kills is fine though. We can keep personal track of our own KDR.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's something satisfying when you see that the server that has won the week ends up having the lowest k/d ratio.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • It would be nice to have personal stats and guild stats.

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  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2018

    k/d in a way has enforced groups to risk less in fighting. - my theory.

    basis. monoblobs, tower bunkers, and less contesters to hold keeps

    monoblobs - saw it from mag, from yb, from db, etc.

    tower bunkers, same as above, also from our server

    keep contesters, we have come to accept to let stuff go if blob since it is not worth it, also in partial to k per points.

    so showing kills is ok. but deaths maybe something else.

    so maybe k/time or tic or points

    or points/kills

    like in my raid we aim not to have high kid, but that our server has higher kills on our raid time. (hard to achieve but easier than k/d) especially when facing above reasons.

    dont get me wrong, all servers we faced bring battles since they are more than us, but for some reason when it's similar or spread both sides choose to snail it out or like a clam.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You think it's KDA and not players being too kitten to lose and too kitten to improve?

    I'm on a high kda server and while players definitely aren't used to losing, I can wipe for an hour straight and maintain most of my players willing to keep going and actually try to improve. Perhaps not with the best morale, perhaps not all of them, but at least enough to eventually turn things around.
    Do that on most other EU servers and after 1 hour of wiping you'll be left with 20-30 players, probably less that will listen to you.

    I do think the few remaining servers capable of fighting sometimes avoid fighting eachother because they'd lose. Also if you're a strong server but as soon as you lose 2 fights, it's down to holding chokes, commfocus, acs or suddenly having to fight inside that upgraded SM then it's no suprise nobody cares about fighting on your terms - mostly because you'll only fight on your terms anyways.

    The gamemode is DEAD for anything competitive. You play for "fun" and for most players fun only happens when they get bags, rewards and that feelgud without any effort. If they can't jump in and feel good, why bother? Try and actually earn that feeling by turning around lost fights? hahaha.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    no.

    moving on.

    probably removing it all together may improve how things are.

    as replacement:

    1. personal kill tally limit removed. or can show when typing /kills
    2. points per kill remains and reflects in the estimated unrealized ppt, which shows and is realized after the 5 min ticker.
    3. kills probably reflected as ratio compared to the other two servers.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    KDR irrelevant move on and play the game how it was designed ,you will have much more fun ,after all it is a game.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    mmm...

    we raid daily with regular players and is fun. but would be more fun if psychologically some factors are removed too. hehe

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Caliburn.1845Caliburn.1845 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to see KD modified and tracked maybe in addition to standard KD. The modified KD would only track kills you get when fighting even numbers or against a larger force, and only when you do not have a presence of the keep buff.

    Might push people to be more aggressive, try to win fights without the typical advantages.

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  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yes, modified kills ratio.

    do you think if x group wins, it be treated like x group claims?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • schloumou.3982schloumou.3982 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    k/d ratio. any other ratio we can replace this with?

    For what purpose?

    Feelings of the filter bubble generation.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    no.

    reason is for more balance between taking and defending and fights.

    why?

    instead of seeing kd, a different scoring is shown which promotes something else. which is the topic

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, we need KD so people will stack on winning side more.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    no.

    reason is for more balance between taking and defending and fights.

    why?

    instead of seeing kd, a different scoring is shown which promotes something else. which is the topic

    Actually the 'score' comes from kills. (PPK). The KDR is a metric that doesn't really effect the score on its own.

    Case in point: Tier 2 NA: BG has a better KDR than kaineng. But Kaneing has received more points from PPK than BG.

    But it's also why PPK isn't shown either. We can extrapolate what percentage of score is from PPK by taking out the calculated PPT from the total scores, but because not every kill counts towards war score (outnumbered) the pure 'kills' from a KDR is not accurate.

    So, in effect, your wish was for something that exists currently.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    no.

    reason is for more balance between taking and defending and fights.

    why?

    instead of seeing kd, a different scoring is shown which promotes something else. which is the topic

    Actually the 'score' comes from kills. (PPK). The KDR is a metric that doesn't really effect the score on its own.

    Case in point: Tier 2 NA: BG has a better KDR than kaineng. But Kaneing has received more points from PPK than BG.

    But it's also why PPK isn't shown either. We can extrapolate what percentage of score is from PPK by taking out the calculated PPT from the total scores, but because not every kill counts towards war score (outnumbered) the pure 'kills' from a KDR is not accurate.

    So, in effect, your wish was for something that exists currently.

    no. cause kd is still there. my wish is to replace kd. the rest can remain as is.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    no.

    reason is for more balance between taking and defending and fights.

    why?

    instead of seeing kd, a different scoring is shown which promotes something else. which is the topic

    Actually the 'score' comes from kills. (PPK). The KDR is a metric that doesn't really effect the score on its own.

    Case in point: Tier 2 NA: BG has a better KDR than kaineng. But Kaneing has received more points from PPK than BG.

    But it's also why PPK isn't shown either. We can extrapolate what percentage of score is from PPK by taking out the calculated PPT from the total scores, but because not every kill counts towards war score (outnumbered) the pure 'kills' from a KDR is not accurate.

    So, in effect, your wish was for something that exists currently.

    no. cause kd is still there. my wish is to replace kd. the rest can remain as is.

    But it's not a part of the score. It's a stat.... Like overall warscore which is still there despite 'winning' a weekly match being dependent on skirmish totals.

    So, no more stats then?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if they remove the stat it'd probably make things more active, at least in terms of fights since players won't see the k/d anymore.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    people are worried about K/D?

    This would explain the other thread with a commander complaining about pugs running away at every engagement.

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  • Djamonja.6453Djamonja.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think there is a problem with K/D ratio -- I don't believe it is making people avoid fights, it's just getting wiped that certain groups try to avoid. Everyone pretty much knows what affects K/D at different times of the day when people are trying to fight outnumbered or with no guilds/commanders on, it's not that big a deal.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Djamonja.6453 said:
    I don't think there is a problem with K/D ratio -- I don't believe it is making people avoid fights, it's just getting wiped that certain groups try to avoid. Everyone pretty much knows what affects K/D at different times of the day when people are trying to fight outnumbered or with no guilds/commanders on, it's not that big a deal.

    Not everybody, a lot of people living in year 2014.

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    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    k/d ratio. any other ratio we can replace this with?

    For what purpose?

    Truth hurts
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  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    truth is relative, facts are facts =) may the great choya god guide you i knowing between the two.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Djamonja.6453Djamonja.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    You shouldn't worry about it or think that K/D ratio is a problem (when made available via the API or Anet's in-game UI, IMO opinion obviously). You asked for civil discussion and I'm trying to give it -- statistics are not the problem with WvW.

  • That servers would be discouraged to fight because of kdr is completely baseless. Before making a thread like this you should bring a little more than mere speculations. And while we're at it; How would you even go about proving it?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:
    That servers would be discouraged to fight because of kdr is completely baseless. Before making a thread like this you should bring a little more than mere speculations. And while we're at it; How would you even go about proving it?

    just my gut feeling. i suppose the enemies we fought recently along the previous matches seems to avoid us and is because of the prevailing kd we have. unless blob. and sometimes even if they are very many.

    like my guys are ready to fight, we def or engage, then i pop the kd every so often, when our kd is low, enemies fight. when it is high, enemies disappear.

    feeling it as on their kd. they avoid fights when low and continue when high.

    when we raid later, i can test it out by no. of encounters before and after kd check.

    want to help.me.out?

    here is how i hope to do it.

    check kd. higher or lower than enemies

    provoke a fight.

    after engage, retry again.

    for the next 4 hours. at least i can give you an update on that.

    i can factor in.

    kd,
    nos,

    for now servers mag and yb

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:
    That servers would be discouraged to fight because of kdr is completely baseless. Before making a thread like this you should bring a little more than mere speculations. And while we're at it; How would you even go about proving it?

    just my gut feeling. i suppose the enemies we fought recently along the previous matches seems to avoid us and is because of the prevailing kd we have. unless blob. and sometimes even if they are very many.

    like my guys are ready to fight, we def or engage, then i pop the kd every so often, when our kd is low, enemies fight. when it is high, enemies disappear.

    feeling it as on their kd. they avoid fights when low and continue when high.

    when we raid later, i can test it out by no. of encounters before and after kd check.

    want to help.me.out?

    here is how i hope to do it.

    check kd. higher or lower than enemies

    provoke a fight.

    after engage, retry again.

    for the next 4 hours. at least i can give you an update on that.

    i can factor in.

    kd,
    nos,

    for now servers mag and yb

    then the test can bd done more than this.matchup probably the course of a month etx.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • This is such a stupid proposal, only meant to make the casuals not feel as bad about themselves. Though even with the k/d displayed they have no shame in saying they are the better server for having won a matchup that is entirely tied to population and coverage.

    And no, people avoid fights after having been stomped by the same blob a few times in a row. The k/d for a skirmish can look good overall, but that could be that one of the blobs on a border gets stomped, while a blob on another 1 pushes. The blob getting stomped won't go check the kdr and say: 'Oh kdr is fine, we'll ignore the fact we've been getting farmed on this border and keep fighting'.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    o.o;;

    well my testing it can be replicated if ppl willing ti try

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    His concern isn't just KD making people feels bad.

    KD is often use as reference for people to create comparisons and that comparisons often turns to something more toxic. This often make people forget the value of effort that people put in to keep trying to defeat stronger zergs. This toxicity also discourage trying and therefore discourage fighting. Furthermore, this comparison also encourage stacking since some people would use it as reference to join the "stronger" side regardless they got blobbed down or what, winning and losing is what people cares about. KD often offer more negativity than positivity, also this KD stats is not personalized thus is hard to even consider as useful stats.

    I mentioned this earlier, a lot of people are living in year 2014.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    I like K/D ratio, winning and losing is most often because of who has the most coverage. K/D lets you know that you aren't just a cannon fodder server with double the coverage, numbers and only winning cause of that. What I would like to see is a personal K/D ratio as well as guild K/D ratio added to the game. Also, I don't believe that players don't fight cause K/D is high or low, it's more likely they just get tired of getting farmed. Yes, that does tie in to K/D but I don't think the players getting farmed are those that pay attention to K/D to begin with.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players are not a single entity but a group of independent individuals. It is wrong to see players as a single entity and if one see from such perspective, it might simplify things thus simplify one's thoughts processes but at the same time, overlook a lot of interconnected issues.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Rayya.2591Rayya.2591 Member ✭✭✭

    why would you replace kdr, is a good statistic, I mean actualy you can see when your server is best and when is worst .

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    why would you replace kdr, is a good statistic, I mean actualy you can see when your server is best and when is worst .

    well it doesnt really show that.

    when kd is 1.0 among all servers, we get decent fights.

    when it nears 1.5 mag gains their blob. yb does ppt.

    when we got the upperhand at around 1.7kd, mag and yb did ppt.

    when my server reaches lower k/d my team is left fighting, the enemy nos. multiply and our team gets over run.

    as one of the few coms of my side. cant really control the kd since players fight all over.

    if you were to choose, do you want more fights or the kd showing your team has the better kill ratio?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Players are not a single entity but a group of independent individuals. It is wrong to see players as a single entity and if one see from such perspective, it might simplify things thus simplify one's thoughts processes but at the same time, overlook a lot of interconnected issues.

    well, if my server got high kd, pugs show and fight. when low, they disappear.

    when i see this at mag and yb, the same happens.

    i can adjust.the factors to these

    1. commander present
    2. nos of ppl in ts
    3. no.s of enemy - zerg or guild or headless.
    4. kd

    so far what is consistent. allies high kd, plenty ppl play and fight. low, plent ppl leave.

    in between another factor is ppl in ts. but not all goes in.

    in the least having it gone will reduce ppl's distraction to kd.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crazy.6029 said:
    I like K/D ratio, winning and losing is most often because of who has the most coverage. K/D lets you know that you aren't just a cannon fodder server with double the coverage, numbers and only winning cause of that. What I would like to see is a personal K/D ratio as well as guild K/D ratio added to the game. Also, I don't believe that players don't fight cause K/D is high or low, it's more likely they just get tired of getting farmed. Yes, that does tie in to K/D but I don't think the players getting farmed are those that pay attention to K/D to begin with.

    in a way is true.

    when mag or yb have nos. their kd rises exponentially. or when they have a good com.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://imgur.com/a/9Uchik8

    my team, in general, are few. and even when it's only 11 of us, when we got high kd, ppl run.

    mag and yb are good servers, and i guess one can't force them to fight if the kd is against their interest, but maybe i can report more of this on the next matchup.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • I thought you 'tag' for your team of 7 players. Does tagging for a roaming group even count as commanding?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stormscar.5489 said:
    I thought you 'tag' for your team of 7 players. Does tagging for a roaming group even count as commanding?

    i command my squad of 7 and up. so yes. is promoting more activity in the 3 way not good?

    imagine 7 of you pushes on 20 and they run away.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • BlueMelody.6398BlueMelody.6398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    why would you replace kdr, is a good statistic, I mean actualy you can see when your server is best and when is worst .

    No, you can see which servers are so obsessed with it that they avoid fights which they aren't virtually assured of winning. That's precisely what I see from certain very specific servers and not from others.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093

    I really don't think your server players are checking the KDR for your server and making a decision to play.

    More likely, when it's high, your server is rolling and people flock to that.

    When it's low, you are getting rolled which hits morale hard.

    Now that isn't to say some servers are more aware. But I doubt the bulk of PUGs reference it as a decision maker to join or not sounds far more anecdotal and more a response to the relative success they see in the map.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Sovereign.1093

    I really don't think your server players are checking the KDR for your server and making a decision to play.

    More likely, when it's high, your server is rolling and people flock to that.

    When it's low, you are getting rolled which hits morale hard.

    Now that isn't to say some servers are more aware. But I doubt the bulk of PUGs reference it as a decision maker to join or not sounds far more anecdotal and more a response to the relative success they see in the map.

    probably or not. i mean we have a few roamers. but, outside of my group at 2 pm to 6pm, we are majority of who yb and mag face.

    i mean i am not really talking about my server. just that about the other two.

    i mean i am stuburn enough to pull my mates to chase the zerg's tail or def our side despit us being few. but once we get the momentum going, the enemy does ppt elsewhere.

    possible reasons be, no enemy com. their com wants to do something else. timezone population etx.

    but this was never a thing pre k/d. well kind of in the sense of fairweather call out but, we had lots of keep contesters, etc. etc.

    thats why i cant conclude just based on today or yesterday. maybe in a month.

    kd may cause it or it may cause kd.

    i dunno for now.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭

    you play a low pop timezone. has nothing to do with KDR.

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    WVW LEADER

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