Aquatic sylvari? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Aquatic sylvari?

Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

Based on what we know of the sylvari origins, do you think it is plausible a seed could have taken root in the oceans or a large source of fresh water?

I would love to find a group of sylvari that broke off or evolved differently in the water (similar to Olmakhan charr) - their aesthetic could be inspired by sea plants/creatures and have a merfolk look about them. An underwater sylvari society could have such breathtaking design potential... And could fit very well into an expansion set in the Unending Ocean. ;)

There’s nothing in the lore to suggest aquatic sylvari are/could be, but them being intended dragon minions doesn’t rule out the possibility either, no? They could have developed their own independent society similar to the grove sylvari, and even before HoTs it was hinted that other trees exist out there (not to mention the dead grove in VB).

I am forgetting though if the spirit of the pale tree/the dream is ever explained? I’ll have to check the wiki once I’m off work.

Comments

  • Its entirely possible, nature has a habit of finding a way, its unlikely that a seed would germinate in an ocean as surrouned by mostly vast quantities of salt water and little else but sand makes for a poor enviroment to aquire the needed "food" to survive. a Lake could be done, with the blighting trees roots being in a firm layer of soil and spanning up and out of the lake, the tree could have acess to both needed sunlight, minerals in the soil. An issue could be drowing of the plant but with the size the tree grows too this could be fine. An more ideal process for this would be for a seed to sprout in a ditch or depression in the ground and somepoint during the saplying phase water started to just pile up around it essentially when reaching its more mature sizes a large "lake" has formed around it.

    Then again this whole explanation for and against if its possible can just be circumvented with "because magic", an enviroment with poor magical energy / acess to ley energy could be a poor place for the tree but the reverse is true an enviroment with abundance of magical and ley energy could easily allow the growth and adaptation of the tree and a variant race of sylvari are thus born tailored for their home being primarily underwater.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

    And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

    Obviously there’s nothing to support this, but there could be special circumstances for any number of “Sylvari” off shoots outside the grove or jungle that allowed them to resist. We’ve only really seen one example in the grove Sylvari. There could be other pale tree/dream-like entitles?

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    You could take the condition of distance and contact, like how children are impressionable during youth, If the "new pale tree" is not contacted by modremoth or "ceased" then it just takes the cycled of growth in its "genetics", the pale trees purpose was to produce the sylvari from a production standpoint, the dream was cultivated to allow for the production of the personalities / intelligence of the produced product aka sylvari. without modremoth contacting the tree and seizing influence over it from creation, the tree would naturally produce its own "personality" and protections from outside influence. This can be proven with the Pale tree as while she was much younger the interaction with Ventari lead to the pale tree growing up with a sense of preservation of life and non violence.

    Thus with modremoth dead and the potential distance, unawareness of the trees location or even area circumstances like magical isolation from modremoth or a similar circumstance as with ventari it is quite possible.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well if we’re going by the most current state of the game with Mordremoth dead then I guess they would just be feral, lost Mordrem (like the Risen nowadays).

    Where he alive however I think my point still stands as dragon minions don’t really seem to need direct guidance to be hostile to everything and everyone around them.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 I think your points stand up, just offering hypothetical circumstances that could skirt around that from a writing/creative perspective. There’s some wiggle room.

    @Kodokuna Akuma.9570 I think either is plausible really - the nature of the “seeds” could involve a sort of magical adaption. The scientific approach is really interesting too though. A Sylvari city/tree half submerged, half above surface? That’d be cool.

  • starhunter.6015starhunter.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    I am still carrying that torch too... Just holding onto the insane hope they'll resolve that thread someday.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    Yes and no. Something certainly happened to protect the sylvari, but we don't know what. The Dream is one possibility- although we don't know how the Pale Tree tapped into it, so there's no saying whether the other trees wouldn't be able to- but another, one that's been batted around for a long time, is the Forgotten ritual, the only thing we know that can grant a dragon minion free will. If that's the case, it's likely the entire cave full of seeds, and every tree and sylvari grown from them, is also protected.

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

    For a... certain value of established. One of the writers tweeted that she imagined that it'd be global, since it's telepathic and not an actual sound, but she followed that up by inviting roleplayers to go with whichever version works best for their character.

    And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

    For the Mordrem as a whole, only that they're still around. For sylvari in particular? That some Mordrem (apparently the corrupted sylvari, since it's linked to hearing Mordremoth's voice) had 'come unhinged,' and also... this fella. It looks like at least some of them are already recovering.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

    I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    That "special circumstances" was the Pale Tree being purified, and since Malyck is similarly sylvari-esque, means the whole cave Ronan found was purified seeds. So if other seeds from that cave got planted, they'd likely produce purified minions, like sylvari, as well. The main difference would be the lack of a Dream and teachings of Ventari, which would basically result in more Malycks.

    One theory of mine is that the Tower of Nightmares was one such seed. Its final appearance is fairly similar to the Vinewrath, but as a stalk rather than a flower, it produced a sylvari-looking krait, was given as a seed to the krait by Scarlet, produced mind altering effects on the krait leading them to being brainwashing, and Marjory suggested it had a personality of its own. It is likely that the Tower of Nightmares is basically a "Pale Tree grown for evil", just as the Pale Tree was "grown for good" by Ventari and Malyck's Tree was a "Pale Tree grown through neutrality" (by all little lore we have, it seems that tree grew up without influence). All appear are ultimately free from Mordremoth, and create stuff closer to each other than to other mordrem.

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

    Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

    Not explicitly, but some minor dialogue during Festival of the Four Winds does suggest that all sylvari felt the call, regardless of distance.

    Zephyrite: Mother says the sylvari were the ones who destroyed our sanctum and fought for the Elder Dragon...
    Citizen: We did not participate by choice. The call was too strong for many.
    Zephyrite: Mother says we control our own destinies. She doesn't trust sylvari anymore.
    Citizen: Then it must be our destiny to regain that trust. We owe your people that much.

    This "Citizen" sylvari looked like any other typical townie sylvari, and not a member of the Pact. This suggests it went far further than just the Maguuma Wastes. Whether it reached LA or even the Grove is unclear, since this NPC remarks on the lack of sylvari reaction in Brisban between S2 and HoT, when the call already happened. It's really hard to tell the definitive value of things since they didn't alter old maps beyond the mordrem invasions themselves.

    And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

    Aside from Rox's comment in Season 3 about them being "confused" without Mordremoth's voice, there's this guy similarly from Festival of the Four Winds.

    Obviously there’s nothing to support this, but there could be special circumstances for any number of “Sylvari” off shoots outside the grove or jungle that allowed them to resist. We’ve only really seen one example in the grove Sylvari. There could be other pale tree/dream-like entitles?

    I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks, all of this is great information!

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

    I was actually reading up on the soundless, and it appears they might actually be more vulnerable based on the implications of the Pale Tree:

    "During the course of the Living Story it is stated by the Avatar of the Tree that by separating themselves from her and the Dream the Soundless in turn reject her protection, which leaves them vulnerable to the corruption of the Elder Dragons. Most clearly this has been seen with the rise of Mordremoth, who had corrupted soundless sylvari such as Aerin and Scarlet Briar (whom while not officially stated to be Soundless was similar to the Soundless in how she separated herself from the Dream and rejected the protection of the Pale Tree)."

    So it seems the Dream does protect the grove sylvari somewhat, and other trees without it might be more susceptible. Still, there's enough evidence to suggest there could be many non-grove sylvari/trees that resisted the call, with or without a dream.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    Thanks, all of this is great information!

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

    I was actually reading up on the soundless, and it appears they might actually be more vulnerable based on the implications of the Pale Tree:

    "During the course of the Living Story it is stated by the Avatar of the Tree that by separating themselves from her and the Dream the Soundless in turn reject her protection, which leaves them vulnerable to the corruption of the Elder Dragons. Most clearly this has been seen with the rise of Mordremoth, who had corrupted soundless sylvari such as Aerin and Scarlet Briar (whom while not officially stated to be Soundless was similar to the Soundless in how she separated herself from the Dream and rejected the protection of the Pale Tree)."

    So it seems the Dream does protect the grove sylvari somewhat, and other trees without it might be more susceptible. Still, there's enough evidence to suggest there could be many non-grove sylvari/trees that resisted the call, with or without a dream.

    The dialogue with the Pale Tree implies that the Soundless might be vulnerable to dragon corruption. It should be noted that the Mordrem Guard were not corrupted, nor was the call a form of dragon corruption, but more traditional mind control and atypical mind fuckery.

    Scarlet was made vulnerable due to entering Omadd's Machine and bearing witness to the Elder Dragons directly, which the Commander did as well ("I saw a dragon. It...um... [...] It came at me." - The Machine). It's not really clear how Aerin became vulnerable - it really feels like Anet was going one direction (Soundless being most susceptible to Mordremoth's call) but then did a 180 (Dreamers being most susceptible to Mordremoth's call) that wiki article was last edited during S2, before we learned the nature of Mordremoth's call; though there was an interview which stated that if the Pale Tree or Dream pushed hard enough, then they can get through to a Soundless as they only "dampen" not get rid of the connection. So by extension, if Mordremoth pushed his call hard enough, he could get to Soundless too.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086
    Ah, I guess keeping the wiki updated is a big undertaking.

    Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

    There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with The Movement of the World, and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hehehe Seaweed Sylvai would be funny.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭

    I kind of hope this becomes a thing somehow. Coral sylvari! Coral! This could easily parallel the Olmakhan village.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I kind of hope this becomes a thing somehow. Coral sylvari! Coral! This could easily parallel the Olmakhan village.

    I hadn’t even thought of coral based Sylvari! That’d be awesome too.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes im down for anything to add in the water

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

    There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with The Movement of the World, and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

    Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

    The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

    Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

    There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with The Movement of the World, and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

    Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

    The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

    Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

    You're talking to the guy that likely wrote that wiki article. Along with a few other lore enthusiast players.

    The game does suggest that Mordremoths call gets weaker the further away you are, so presumably there's a line somewhere where it fades away into nothing. This is evidenced by dialogue with Canach in the HoT story. The closer Canach gets to Mordremoth, the louder the call gets. Although it's never expressly stated whether that's because of distance or simply the call getting stronger over time/consumed magic.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2018

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

    Ronan and Ventari guided it morally, but they did jack for magic. Dragon minions can't be made good through kind words and deeds. This is stated time and time again throughout the story, those who are corrupted or made by corruption are enslaved to the Elder Dragons' will. They have no willpower of their own, no free will.

    Sadly, most overarching sylvari articles on the wiki pre-date release, sometimes with only a few tidbits here and there of newer lore, but very few are post-HoT unless they're mordrem related articles. The same goes for most of the articles made pre-release. I know @Kossage.9072 has been slowly working on improving the wiki's lore articles, as have I, but it's hard to keep track of which ones are how much out of date.

    Off the top of my head I know the Sylvari, Asura, and Soundless, are all pre-HoT out of date, if not pre-release. I've made note of this and intend to review and update them over the weekend (if you notice more, please let me know!). The unfortunate truth is that there are very few lore-interested people who edit the wiki, and there are some off-and-on editors who think they know lore but toss in their own headcanon and theories as if proven fact.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

    Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

    The "default" would be normal, non-magical trees based on the Ancient Tree and the Great Tree, both being massive trees of completely normal design (possibly Stonewood) that are being slowly corrupted into Blighting Trees. Sylvari are dragon minions, so they're corrupted-then-freed based on the fact that they're of free will. Their free will means that the Pale Tree, at some point in time, got purified. Since Ventari and Ronan had no such magic, and Malyck was also freed, it had to be before Ronan found the seed.

    We don't know how or when the Pale Tree and Malyck (or his tree) was purified, just that they were, based on the three simple facts I've stated: 1) dragon minions have no free will unless purified (which is very hard to do), 2) sylvari are dragon minions, 3) sylvari have free will.

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  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    The game does suggest that Mordremoths call gets weaker the further away you are, so presumably there's a line somewhere where it fades away into nothing. This is evidenced by dialogue with Canach in the HoT story. The closer Canach gets to Mordremoth, the louder the call gets. Although it's never expressly stated whether that's because of distance or simply the call getting stronger over time/consumed magic.

    Canach and the sylvari PC also say that the call is quieter in Rata Novus, for whatever that means. I mean, we don't see any sylvari-style Mordrem east of the Silverwastes, but those maps are also mostly timelocked to 1325 AE with a few changes for Seasons 1 and 2. We know the call gets stronger going into the jungle, and especially closer to Mordremoth, but the strength of the call on Central Tyria is unknown.

    I don't know where Konig got his info that the call infected the Dream, but Season 2 outright said that the Soundless were most vulnerable to becoming Mordrem until the Pact got attacked. Although many (myself included) thought that the call might be related to Nightmare, the courtiers made it pretty clear they didn't answer the call any more willingly than Pact soldiers. So, Mordremoth spoke to the mind to all sylvari, saying words only they could hear and understand, and only through the strength of will did any of them resist. That is all we have confirmed and stated in the game to my knowledge.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm then it sounds like the seeds being "purified" is little more than a theory right now. Not beyond the realm of possibility, but also not confirmed anywhere in the game/lore.

    Obviously we know the Forgotten could purify dragon minions, but until the game confirms it I'm not comfortable taking "purified seeds" as gospel truth.

    The default Sylvari could simply be an incubation period, similar to the "bud" of a flower waiting to bloom into a mordrem. Or it could be that Mordremoth lied and the Sylvari, while susceptible, were never really his. Or that in the 10,000 years he slept, the seeds essentially became a blank slate without his influence. Neutrally aligned and prone to adapting to whatever influences it.

    How that explains Malyck isn't clear, but honestly the more I think about this the more I think the writers might have just accidentally created an unintentional plot/lore hole... What makes the most sense right now is that Malyck was a sleeper agent sent by the rousing Mordremoth to collect information; his mind/body was created to mimick that of the Sylvari to better blend and gain their trust. Then he runs off into the Maguuma fully believing he's returning to his people when in truth he's instinctively running back to Mordremoth.

    I guess it does make sense that any given tree would default the "fruit" it bears to whatever species is most prominent in its area. Since the Pale Tree grew from Ronan's influence (and was buried on human graves), it makes sense for it's fruit to resemble humans. Malyck's tree might have grown in similar conditions, but say... A seed that made it into the ocean and adapted, it might make Sylvari/pre-pubescent modrem that look more fish-like or krait-like (or quaggan-like lololol) if those species were dominant where it took root. And we do know there were mordrem of various shapes, and also sylvari of different shapes (like the sylvan hounds).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    I don't know where Konig got his info that the call infected the Dream, but Season 2 outright said that the Soundless were most vulnerable to becoming Mordrem until the Pact got attacked.

    "Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence."
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.
    Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us? Brilliant.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

    What's said in Season 2 is this:

    Avatar of the Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
    Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    Avatar of the Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call#Dialogue

    Pact Commander: Sylvari were invulnerable to corruption. But not with Mordremoth. Why?
    Ogden Stonehealer: You refer to Scarlet and Aerin. Similar symptoms. Yes.
    Ogden Stonehealer: I am no expert, but they're immature as a race. Their concept of nightmare and Dream is simplistic at best.
    Ogden Stonehealer: Too black and white, too unsophisticated to explain the changes affecting some of them.
    Ogden Stonehealer: The Pale Tree is said to protect them from the corruption of the other dragons. They both rejected her, no?
    Ogden Stonehealer: It makes sense that sylvari would be vulnerable to Mordremoth, a plant-based being like themselves.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

    What this is saying is that the Pale Tree protects against dragon corruption, but Mordremoth can corrupt sylvari, suggesting this is due to the whole "Elder Plant Dragon and sylvari are plants" thing, with the suggestion that the Soundless are vulnerable to dragon corruption. Since this is pre-reveal, it's only half truths since the origin of sylvari is left unclear, and people took that to mean that Mordremoth can influence them because sylvari are its minions, and that other Elder Dragons cannot corrupt them because they're already dragon minions. But what we're actually shown instead is that the Dream is what protects sylvari against dragon corruption, and Mordremoth uses that protection to influence them via the Call - the Call is not dragon corruption, as Mordrem Guard can return as we see both in Buried Insight and with the Festival of the Four Winds' Solitary Sylvari (though moreso the first instance, since risen have shown a capability to become independent post-dragon-mortem too).

    But the fact the call is not corruption is likely why all the HoT promotions constantly call it "Mordremoth's influence" and not "Mordremoth's corruption". Only Tyrians who do not know the full situation called it corruption (e.g., unreliable narrator).

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Hmm then it sounds like the seeds being "purified" is little more than a theory right now. Not beyond the realm of possibility, but also not confirmed anywhere in the game/lore.

    Obviously we know the Forgotten could purify dragon minions, but until the game confirms it I'm not comfortable taking "purified seeds" as gospel truth.

    The default Sylvari could simply be an incubation period, similar to the "bud" of a flower waiting to bloom into a mordrem. Or it could be that Mordremoth lied and the Sylvari, while susceptible, were never really his. Or that in the 10,000 years he slept, the seeds essentially became a blank slate without his influence. Neutrally aligned and prone to adapting to whatever influences it.

    The first isn't the case, as we see mordrem coming out of Blighting Trees without any "incubation period".

    The second isn't the case, because it wasn't only Mordremoth who made this claim, but Wynne and the Pale Tree, the former got this knowledge from the Dream which isn't part of Mordremoth but fights against him.

    And the third isn't the case because the Elder Dragons each leave a "herald" champion to hasten its awakening when the time is right - the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, Glint, and for Zhaitan, likely the Giganticus Lupicus (the only confirmed champion to be from the previous dragonrise) - for some reason, Mordremoth didn't have a herald but got lucky with Scarlet which he manipulated into filling the role. The fact that dragon minions have no free will means that they simply cannot adapt to whatever influences it, and the Elder Dragon sleeping doesn't influence this lack of free will.

    The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it had to have happened.

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  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086
    Now that you lay it all out, I see why we've long had differenting views on this. Seems you've got a bit of the headcanon syndrome yourself.

    Yes, everything you say is factual: the sylvari are immune to corruption by the other dragons and only Mordremoth can turn sylvari into its minions, which we later learn is him more reclaiming his minions from... whatever it is they are now. Even saying sylvari come from a purified seed is assumption, as we have no idea why the Pale Tree didn't start spitting out dragon minions those 25 years ago.

    As for the Call, it's not infecting the Dream, at least we can't assume that from the comment. Sylvari have had Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts before, which means they are compelled to a single goal until it is completed. When Mordremoth's call went out, this new compulsion to all sylvari, many assumed it to be a new Hunt. Perhaps the Hunts were how Mordremoth directed his minions in the past, but that got interrupted. Perhaps all dragon minions have Hunts of their own, but we only see them want to kill everything, so we can't differentiate it from general mania.

    Either way, sylvari from the Pale Tree, and Malyck from wherever he hails, showed no sign of being minions before Mordremoth awoke thanks to Scarlet Briar's action. Even her behavior isn't consistent with being a minion, since she was appropriately vague about her true intentions. We assume she wanted to wake the dragon, and many suggest she wanted to kill it; in trying to stop her, the former actually happen. Now that Mordremoth is dead, sylvari of all ilk can live their lives as they did when they first emerged 25 years ago. Perhaps if we ever discover Malyck's tree, this discussion can become much less hypothetical.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    Scarlet was an oddity indeed. Definitely seemed to have been a “when you gaze headlong into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you”-situation rather than her “going Mordrem”.

    Her fate was very tragic, very Lovecraftian. I liked it a lot from a writing perspective.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it had to have happened.

    Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it had to have happened.

    Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

    Wynne's Dream confirms that sylvari were always meant to be minions of Mordremoth. Of that, there is no doubt. Why they didn't come out screaming his name or slaughtering the asura (instead of the other way around) is still unclear. From past evidence, we presume the seed must be purified of dragon taint or were otherwise protected from his control.

    I'm still of the mind that the Dream is deeply rooted to the nature of sylvari, and why Malyck didn't even have his own separate Dream, I don't know. Hopefully this gets revisited, but there is still much of the charr and norn that should be explored before we return to more sylvari stuff, unless freeing minions becomes the focus of a chapter.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce.

    That's... been a subject of debate in the past. The claim is made by your order mentor during the skritt arc of the PS, and they have considerable expertise in the field... but, on the other hand, it's established a few times in later arcs that there was quite a bit about Elder Dragons in general, and Zhaitan in particular, that the orders didn't know, and we certainly see a number of minions producing eggs that then hatch corrupted young. Some of these cases, it can be argued, were pregnant when they were corrupted (Glint, a couple risen drakes), but with others the sheer number we see producing eggs (every risen spider, a staggering number of branded devourers) makes it hard to argue they all just so happened to be pregnant. You could argue gameplay mechanics for the spiders, but the devourers are harder, since they don't add anything to the combat.

    At this point, I think there are reasonable cases to be made for both arguments. I lean towards the reproduction side, myself, but only because it most easily resolves the inconsistencies, not because the logic behind it is necessarily stronger.

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  • Overlord RainyDay.2084Overlord RainyDay.2084 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    Maybe for the soundless, their distance from the dream made it harder for them to hear the call, but without either the Nightmare court's ethos of "I do what I want, you're not the boss of me," or the Pale Tree's guidance in the dream, they had little defense against Mordremoth when he did reach them. For Scarlet and some of the others, Mordremoth's voice was described as being hard to distinguish from one's own inner voice, which I would imagine makes it very easy to get confused. Mordremoth never really pulls that on the player, but maybe by the beginning of HoT, with a large number of sylvari already turned and the blighting trees coming online, he no longer cared about subtlety.

    As for the original thread topic, aquatic sylvari would be cool, and I think it could be possible. There's always that large, mysterious lake north west of forsaken thicket. Malyck arrived on a river that flowed from the North, right? Regardless of how the Pale Tree's seed got purified, it did happen, and that seed wasn't alone. There could be other uncontacted trees elsewhere in the world that were shielded from the call by distance or magical protection (We know from Rata Novus, even large ley-line nodes right on Mordremoth's doorstep can be shielded well enough for the call to be only a whisper). My personal theory is that the forgotten are the key to all of this. We knew they knew the purification rituals, and we know they were active in the Maguuma region in between GW 1 and 2, so they could have purified the blighting tree seeds and distributed them around. They also still had a presence in the crystal desert, so if they did have a hand in the Pale tree's purification, they could have taken other seeds as far as Elona as some kind of contingency plan. A self-sustaining army of warriors, ready to fight the moment they're born, and immune to the corruption of 5/6 dragons would suit the Forgotten's purposes perfectly.

  • @Rognik.2579 said:
    @Konig Des Todes.2086
    Now that you lay it all out, I see why we've long had differenting views on this. Seems you've got a bit of the headcanon syndrome yourself.

    Yes, everything you say is factual: the sylvari are immune to corruption by the other dragons and only Mordremoth can turn sylvari into its minions, which we later learn is him more reclaiming his minions from... whatever it is they are now. Even saying sylvari come from a purified seed is assumption, as we have no idea why the Pale Tree didn't start spitting out dragon minions those 25 years ago.

    How is it an assumption to say the sylvari are purified?

    It's 1) A stated fact that all dragon minions have no free will. 2) A stated fact that sylvari have free will. 3) A stated fact that Elder Dragons in hibernation does not affect the first fact.

    The method of "purification" (a term used for lack of a better word) is unknown, as is the time, but if it never happened, then fact 2, that the sylvari have free will, should never occur and would be a massive plot hole.

    It is literally (and I mean that by its dictionary definition and not the "I actually mean metaphorically" definition) stated time and time again in the game that dragon minions cannot simply be "made good". There are two and only two reasons a dragon minion, which includes sylvari, can gain free will: 1) they, or their maker, was freed from dragon control by an external magical source (of which we only know three confirmed methods - the Forgotten ritual, something among what we did to Mawdreys, and the system used on Kralkatorrite Ingots), or 2) the Elder Dragon dies (as shown by the risen in Siren's Landing).

    It is also established, I say for posterity, that even if freed (by any method), the dragon minion can and likely will continue their Elder Dragon.

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    As for the Call, it's not infecting the Dream, at least we can't assume that from the comment. Sylvari have had Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts before, which means they are compelled to a single goal until it is completed. When Mordremoth's call went out, this new compulsion to all sylvari, many assumed it to be a new Hunt. Perhaps the Hunts were how Mordremoth directed his minions in the past, but that got interrupted. Perhaps all dragon minions have Hunts of their own, but we only see them want to kill everything, so we can't differentiate it from general mania.

    It's outright stated that Mordremoth sent the call through the Dream. Both in articles preceding HoT's release and in the game itself.

    Also, you're making the mistake of presuming that the Dream is the dragon minion hive mind when it isn't. Not only is there no evidence to suggest mordrem have a connection to the Dream, but it is confirmed that Malyck has no connection, that the Dream fights against Mordremoth (the sylvari PC was given a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth during The World Summit), and that non-dragon minion entities are connected to the Dream in the same manner as the Pale Tree.

    You say it is all "headcanon syndrome" but where's the theorycrafting at? I've just been restating what's been told to us.

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    Either way, sylvari from the Pale Tree, and Malyck from wherever he hails, showed no sign of being minions before Mordremoth awoke thanks to Scarlet Briar's action. Even her behavior isn't consistent with being a minion, since she was appropriately vague about her true intentions. We assume she wanted to wake the dragon, and many suggest she wanted to kill it; in trying to stop her, the former actually happen. Now that Mordremoth is dead, sylvari of all ilk can live their lives as they did when they first emerged 25 years ago. Perhaps if we ever discover Malyck's tree, this discussion can become much less hypothetical.

    They actually do show signs of such, and these very signs were why people had long speculated that sylvari were dragon minions the moment we learned there was a sixth unknown Elder Dragon.

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it had to have happened.

    Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

    If they weren't corrupted by Mordremoth, then they wouldn't have been "meant to serve the dragon" and wouldn't be dragon minions in the first place. Mordrem produced by Blighting Trees are produced in similar (if not the same) way as well.

    Dragon champions are capable of creating minions, they don't all need to corrupt living beings - Primordus, for example, has champions that create destroyers in vats of lava, slowly formed over time, and had created at least one champion who created "eggs" to form destroyers in mobility.

    Mordrem are primarily created using two methods; either in a invasive species method where mordrem vines consume the host be that host plant or animal (resulting in situations like the Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves in the latter case), or by corrupting plant matter itself per this dev comment.

    Mordrem in general may be an exception to the "minions can't reproduce" since all other minions are turned into elemental entities (fire, ice, crystal) or dead things, whereas plants are living beings in their own rights. There are some Blighting Tree "saplings" in Auric Basin, for example, that are suggested to be newly planted and growing.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    What it boils down to is that we don’t really know. We have parameters and rules that dragon minions are supposed to follow, and then there’s the Sylvari. It could very well be that you’re correct and the seeds were purified through an unknown method, resulting in free Sylvari, or it could be a plot hole they’re trying to retroactively cover.

    The point being, even if you list the rules dragon minions follow, until we have a concrete statement in game of exactly how the Sylvari defied the odds, you are theorizing. There’s nothing wrong with that, but unless you’re writing the plot and lore for ANet you have no way of knowing for certain. They could truly have some weird mind boggling twist prepared that throws the logic of dragon minions out the window.

    The information the game has imparted certainly suggests something in line with your theory, but until it’s proven that’s what it is: a theory. Your argument does makes a lot of sense, objectively, but I don’t think anyone should take it as fact yet.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dragon champions are capable of creating minions, they don't all need to corrupt living beings - Primordus, for example, has champions that create destroyers in vats of lava, slowly formed over time, and had created at least one champion who created "eggs" to form destroyers in mobility.

    Mordrem are primarily created using two methods; either in a invasive species method where mordrem vines consume the host be that host plant or animal (resulting in situations like the Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves in the latter case), or by corrupting plant matter itself per this dev comment.

    Mordrem in general may be an exception to the "minions can't reproduce" since all other minions are turned into elemental entities (fire, ice, crystal) or dead things, whereas plants are living beings in their own rights. There are some Blighting Tree "saplings" in Auric Basin, for example, that are suggested to be newly planted and growing.

    Well, that brings us to the question whether it's true reproduction, where the offspring is genetically unique, or "false reproduction" as in cloning. It would make sense, especially with Mordrem, as some plants in the real world reproduce by cloning themselves, turning nutrients, sunlight and water into stem cells, out which they form the new plant growth(-s) via their roots. So in a sense Dragon Minions wouldn't REproduce, they'd just produce, and that's why 2 destroyer crablings look identical.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

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    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

    A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

    A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

    If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

    A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

    If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

    hope they do a blizzard then, how they did 180 on Tandred Proudmoore being non canon; though quit wow years ago, but still follow what's happening with the story in the game

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

    A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

    If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

    Actually, one of the writers posted here within the last few months that Malyck’s plot thread is not entirely off the table. They have content planned, but they need to find somewhere to put it — and they very much want to find a place for it.

    So nothing is a sure bet, but they’ve essentially written the resolution and are looking for somewhere to use it.

  • @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

    we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

    A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

    If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

    Malyck and his tree was intended to be seen and used in HoT but was cut due to time restraints so they have not fully forgotten him.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    Malyck and his tree was intended to be seen and used in HoT but was cut due to time restraints so they have not fully forgotten him.

    There are so many other things about HoT's story that should have been cut or scrapped, but Malyck and his plotline was not one of them.

    At this point, I would not mind if they just did more Current Events style filler, much as they did with Trahearne and the Pale Tree, that addressed Malyck and the Non-PT Sylvari.

  • There's the question whether a Sylvari's density is higher or lower than that of water and by how much. Ingame, this cannot affect character movement, but as Sylvari are plants, they may need to expend energy to not drift to the surface. If that is the case, a group of Sylvari may be able to form a raft, but that would make aquatic Sylvari unlikely. With the exception of coastal Sylvari, these are fairly common in Caledon Forest and Sparkfly Fen.

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