Understanding the human gods — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Understanding the human gods

Fleebag.1384Fleebag.1384 Member ✭✭

Hi all, I have a few questions about the human gods that would help me better understand their place in relation to Tyria and the 5 major races.
1) When they brought humanity to Tyria, did they bring all humans from the old world with them, or only a select few (their cult/faithful)?
2) Do we know the reason for why they evacuated the old world? (just a search for something better or escaping some cataclysm/persecution)
3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?
4) When the Oloko wrote that the gods will bring ‘their faithful’ to the new world they are searching for, is that to be understood literally (only those of the faith will get to accompany them, the rest will be left behind to whatever fate that follows)?

Comments

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭
    1. We know nothing about the old world from where the humans originated. We don't even know if the last place from where the humans emerged was indeed their home world. Taking into account the tendency of the gods to leave the world when they are in trouble in order to populate another "safe" world, my opinion is that the humans brought by the gods in Tyria are not all the humans, and also they are not the faithful. The Tyrian humans are the descendants of the lucky survivors of the old world.
    2. We have no clue why they evacuated the old world. But, no matter what happened there, the god were as skillful as they are now in dealing with the situation - I mean complete impotent! But I'm sure - they become better and better at evacuation maneuvers. (what I don't understand - they knew of the dragon existence for more than 10 000 years. They knew that a fight with the dragons is catastrophic to Tyria no matter who the winner is. Then, why they decided right now, when the Dragons are awake and we already started the fight, to search for a suitable place to evacuate the humans? Right now? They had 10 millennia to do this).
    3. You don't need a permission to worship someone. The respective god can ignore you, he can even kill you but cannot deny you the freedom to worship it. So, although they are human gods, I think everyone can worship them. The fact that every race can choose every specialization means that they can use the different types of magics, governed by different gods.
    4. =) I think this is pure propaganda. To obtain a true honest statement, the words their faithful should be replaced with the stupids. Because only a few lucky will survive (at least after Taimi revelation when we found the dragons are now endangered species and are protected by law). And from that small number of lucky survivors you need truly stupid persons to believe again in the "god's" story about a new and safe and prosperous world.

    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    In my opinion, this is the contradiction laying in every "god" without any godish attribute. Well, they have one attribute - the divine power :# . Useless trait - until now the only thing we know is that the divine power is able to do is to destroy the world if left free. What about a more constructive approach? Something like - the divine power is able to create something rather than destroying everything? I think I ask too much - for creation you need brain. And is obvious the gods are powerful, old, cowards, herders, everything you want, and brainless. BLEAH - at least two times in a row being unable to prevent something to destroy the world? Are they able to learn?

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, the tyrian gods are much more like the greek pantheon, than a monotheistic understanding. They are fallible, their power has limits, though they may have been capable of killing the dragons, but decided against it, since doing so would have destroyed the world.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    1. We know nothing about the old world from where the humans originated. We don't even know if the last place from where the humans emerged was indeed their home world. Taking into account the tendency of the gods to leave the world when they are in trouble in order to populate another "safe" world, my opinion is that the humans brought by the gods in Tyria are not all the humans, and also they are not the faithful. The Tyrian humans are the descendants of the lucky survivors of the old world.
    2. We have no clue why they evacuated the old world. But, no matter what happened there, the god were as skillful as they are now in dealing with the situation - I mean complete impotent! But I'm sure - they become better and better at evacuation maneuvers. (what I don't understand - they knew of the dragon existence for more than 10 000 years. They knew that a fight with the dragons is catastrophic to Tyria no matter who the winner is. Then, why they decided right now, when the Dragons are awake and we already started the fight, to search for a suitable place to evacuate the humans? Right now? They had 10 millennia to do this).
    3. You don't need a permission to worship someone. The respective god can ignore you, he can even kill you but cannot deny you the freedom to worship it. So, although they are human gods, I think everyone can worship them. The fact that every race can choose every specialization means that they can use the different types of magics, governed by different gods.
    4. =) I think this is pure propaganda. To obtain a true honest statement, the words their faithful should be replaced with the stupids. Because only a few lucky will survive (at least after Taimi revelation when we found the dragons are now endangered species and are protected by law). And from that small number of lucky survivors you need truly stupid persons to believe again in the "god's" story about a new and safe and prosperous world.

    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    In my opinion, this is the contradiction laying in every "god" without any godish attribute. Well, they have one attribute - the divine power :# . Useless trait - until now the only thing we know is that the divine power is able to do is to destroy the world if left free. What about a more constructive approach? Something like - the divine power is able to create something rather than destroying everything? I think I ask too much - for creation you need brain. And is obvious the gods are powerful, old, cowards, herders, everything you want, and brainless. BLEAH - at least two times in a row being unable to prevent something to destroy the world? Are they able to learn?

    There's quite a lot of things wrong with this post.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fleebag.1384 said:
    1) When they brought humanity to Tyria, did they bring all humans from the old world with them, or only a select few (their cult/faithful)?

    Nothing is really known about this. Whether they only brought humans to Tyria, or into multiple places, is also unclear. Where this "Old World" is also very unclear as there's no indication that other worlds aside from Tyria actually exist. No one inclined to talk about them has been found. All the other places we can travel are in the Mists but somehow Tyria is a separate world outside the Mists? The gods came from another one of these worlds but there's no evidence of their existence. This is so inconsistent that I can't begin to fathom how it works.

    2) Do we know the reason for why they evacuated the old world? (just a search for something better or escaping some cataclysm/persecution)

    Same answer as before. I'd like to add that there's a possibility that the "Old World" may have suffered a similar event than what is now befalling on Tyria, and that the gods may have indirectly caused the event by trying to oppose another event leading up to it. Like how killing Elder dragons causes ambient magic levels to rise which causes the world to start unraveling on a sub-atomic level, which is why the Gods can't fight the dragons because that would likely accelerate the process which could reach a point of self-containment at any moment. The same principle why nuclear power plants can't extract energy from the fuel any faster because it blows up if they try to.

    3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?

    Not worshippers exactly but the Forgotten were servants of the gods. The Forgotten were native to Tyria, and around before the previous dragonrise, so they chose that servitude on their own, and they probably knew exactly where the gods came from.

    4) When the Oloko wrote that the gods will bring ‘their faithful’ to the new world they are searching for, is that to be understood literally (only those of the faith will get to accompany them, the rest will be left behind to whatever fate that follows)?

    I have no idea what this is referring to.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    @Fleebag.1384 said:
    Hi all, I have a few questions about the human gods that would help me better understand their place in relation to Tyria and the 5 major races.
    1) When they brought humanity to Tyria, did they bring all humans from the old world with them, or only a select few (their cult/faithful)?

    Unclear, but from what we know about the human population numbers at the time- namely, that they didn't immediately fill Tyria, but instead started in specific pockets and spread from there over centuries- tells us that there weren't many of them. Either the gods didn't bring everyone from that old world... or by the time they left, there weren't many humans left to bring. (Or, I suppose, the world could've been much smaller, or the human population might not have been as numerous there for some reason other than a cataclysm. There's really no telling.)

    2) Do we know the reason for why they evacuated the old world? (just a search for something better or escaping some cataclysm/persecution)

    We've had indications that something bad happened there- Dwayna had promised to lead 'her people' to peace, implying they didn't have it before, Lyssa worked to help either the other gods or the humans- unclear which- to 'forget the past', and Balthazar showed up still carrying his father's head.

    3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?

    They used to have quite a few. The Forgotten are the best known- and they absolutely did worship the gods, to the point of taking it upon themselves to start a war when the Six's priests and temples were attacked- but in GW1 we also see a number of dwarves, at least one naga, and I believe an obscure scattering of others, although I can't pin them down right now. Djinn were involved in an Elonian ritual to bestow Dwayna's blessing, and the most significant spirit we encounter in Balthazar's realm was a centaur.

    4) When the Oloko wrote that the gods will bring ‘their faithful’ to the new world they are searching for, is that to be understood literally (only those of the faith will get to accompany them, the rest will be left behind to whatever fate that follows)?

    Unclear. It seems Oloko was frantically searching for an answer to the crisis of faith Kormir's followers were going through, so it's not even clear whether the choice of words came from Kormir, or was his own.

    Taken a step farther: strictly speaking, while it is in keeping with the other information we have about the gods, and that achievement is a lot of work to be rewarded with a red herring, we don't even know for sure whether Garden of the Gods is an accurate revelation. There's a chance that a desperate priest in the middle of a desert may have been deluding himself, or hallucinating. It's not the explanation I prefer, but by itself, the book can't be taken as gospel.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?

    according to some version of Jotun legends, the Jotuns were once the favorites of the Gods, and they were exchanged for humans.

    According to Thrulnn the Lost, before their fall the jotun and norn were favored by the Six Human Gods and granted magic that led the races to prominence. He refers to this time as the Age of Giants. In time, their power came to rival that of the gods themselves, who began to fear that the jotun would use magic against them. The jotun giant-kings, confused and enraged, turned on one another, and the gods abandoned them, taking their magic away and handed it over to other races, causing the crumbling of jotun civilization.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    We've had indications that something bad happened there- Dwayna had promised to lead 'her people' to peace, implying they didn't have it before, Lyssa worked to help either the other gods or the humans- unclear which- to 'forget the past', and Balthazar showed up still carrying his father's head.

    My suspicion is that Balthazar was the pivot of whatever happened. Perhaps a big war between balthazar and his father leds the former humam world to destruction.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    1. Unclear but unlikely given point 2. No figures are given about humanity when they were brought, be it numbers or diversities. But given point 2, it's likely humanity that were brought were refugees and when you're fleeing something as refugees, you tend to leave some of the population behind whether intended or not.
    2. But by the sounds of it, they were fleeing some cataclysm, major war, or some form of mass persecution, as they were hoping for a "better land" and a "paradise" and something happened "beyond the Mists" that made humanity and/or the gods sad and was worth forgetting. But beyond this, it's unclear.
    3. Yes and yes. The Forgotten are fervent worshipers of the Six. There's also some centaurs who worshiped Balthazar, a legend about harpies being fallen servants of Dwayna, and there's a naga who was named "Blessed of Dwayna". Though they're called the Six Human Gods in GW2's time, this is because all non-human faithfuls are either uncommon or gone.
    4. Similarly unclear and up to interpretation at this time.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    what I don't understand - they knew of the dragon existence for more than 10 000 years. They knew that a fight with the dragons is catastrophic to Tyria no matter who the winner is. Then, why they decided right now, when the Dragons are awake and we already started the fight, to search for a suitable place to evacuate the humans? Right now? They had 10 millennia to do this

    Er, the gods couldn't have known about the Elder Dragons for 10,000 years since they hadn't even been on Tyria for much more than 3,000 years by all accounts.

    Granted they did have centuries of knowing about them, but it's likely they thought they could keep them asleep forever (they did pull magic out of Zhaitan while it slept, after all).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    That description sounds more like shepards, not slavers. Even not including the extra-hostile Atlantic Slave Trade situation, slavers would be willing to lose their slaves to predators rather than buying new property and taking all the slaves with them.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, this is the contradiction laying in every "god" without any godish attribute. Well, they have one attribute - the divine power :# . Useless trait - until now the only thing we know is that the divine power is able to do is to destroy the world if left free. What about a more constructive approach? Something like - the divine power is able to create something rather than destroying everything? I think I ask too much - for creation you need brain. And is obvious the gods are powerful, old, cowards, herders, everything you want, and brainless. BLEAH - at least two times in a row being unable to prevent something to destroy the world? Are they able to learn?

    Because the ability to terraform entire worlds and control the very foundation of fabric is something that beings less than gods can do. /s

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    4) When the Oloko wrote that the gods will bring ‘their faithful’ to the new world they are searching for, is that to be understood literally (only those of the faith will get to accompany them, the rest will be left behind to whatever fate that follows)?

    I have no idea what this is referring to.

    He's referring to Garden of the Gods, the Lost Lore of Crystal Oasis collection.

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?

    according to some version of Jotun legends, the Jotuns were once the favorites of the Gods, and they were exchanged for humans.

    According to Thrulnn the Lost, before their fall the jotun and norn were favored by the Six Human Gods and granted magic that led the races to prominence. He refers to this time as the Age of Giants. In time, their power came to rival that of the gods themselves, who began to fear that the jotun would use magic against them. The jotun giant-kings, confused and enraged, turned on one another, and the gods abandoned them, taking their magic away and handed it over to other races, causing the crumbling of jotun civilization.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun

    Thrulnn the lost is a liar (intended or not) though, and most of what he says is incorrect. That was added to the wiki because some people cannot accept the existence of unreliable narrator. For example, the jotun didn't fall to civil war because of losing magic, but because of greed of their individual kings which led to their magic casters being wiped out thus making them lose magic.

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  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But then theres Canthans...... who were already here before the Gods showed up, and only started worshiping them much later after Dwayna sought them out. Even with the Retcons, its implied that Humans prior to Orr have extremely muddled history, making it near impossible to determine what is Truth, Embellishment, or Propaganda. And I don't see the Gods having issue with that, since it simplifies the relationship with their followers.

    While probably not intentional at first, this "loose canon" status of human pre-history is literal Folk Lore and Legend. And like such tales passed down over time, they are either altered, or sometimes reinterpreted to meet the needs of the age. The modern age in Tyria also has a lot of rationalist philosophies. Even the humans began drifting away from devout worship, but still holds the ideals of their circles of influence in high regard in their everyday life.

    This disillusionment with history is so perfectly matched to the theme of the game's story, that I'm sure the writers started running with it when they realized the same thing. The history exists, and the kernels of truth buried in each tale.... but unable to completely separate embellishments from fact. Enough to hint cause and effect, but the details of which so unclear, they could change it as needed for story arcs. "I can work with that".

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2018

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    But then theres Canthans...... who were already here before the Gods showed up, and only started worshiping them much later after Dwayna sought them out.

    False, not sure where you even get any of that, in fact.

    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Path_of_Fire—Road_to_the_Desert

    The Six brought humanity to Cantha, just as they brought humanity to the world.

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Even with the Retcons, its implied that Humans prior to Orr have extremely muddled history, making it near impossible to determine what is Truth, Embellishment, or Propaganda. And I don't see the Gods having issue with that, since it simplifies the relationship with their followers.

    There's not much muddling actually. Humans arrived on Elona and Orr in 205 via boat, but arrived on the world much earlier at Arah via portal at an unknown date and were brought to Cantha by the gods. This implies that the timeline is basically:

    Pre-786 BE: Gods brought humanity to Orr via portal, then took them elsewhere.
    786 BE: Gods guided humanity to Cantha's northern shores via boats from that elsewhere; Kurzicks and Luxons showed up later from that elsewhere.
    205 BE: Humanity, on their own, arrived at Orr, Istan, and Kourna from that elsewhere.

    That elsewhere is most likely the Sunrise Crest / Sunken Isles area from the world map we've gotten in Season 2.

    This strongly matches what we were told before GW2's release, where Jeff Grubb hinted that humanity came from a place other than the three continents before showing up at those three continents, hinting it "might" have been south of Cantha or Elona - either the hint was a red herring since there's nothing south of Cantha, or internal lore got changed (more likely). We've known since the Prima Guide for Factions that humanity did not originate from Cantha, and that the Tyrians and Elonians that showed up in 205 BE did not come from Cantha either:

    • Humans came not for Cantha's mainland (closest likely being Shing Jea): Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.
    • Humans of Tyria/Elona came not from Cantha: Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence.
    • Luxons came not from Shing Jea (historians mistakenly thinking Margonite relics were Luxon relics): Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.
      https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    So there's no real muddling, and not really retcons either in this regard. It's always been a mystery, and what little known information is still true. Humanity arrived in the world at unknown point in time. Humanity later arrived in Cantha. Humanity later and independently from Cantha arrived in Tyria/Elona.

    Only two things have changed since GW2's release:

    1. The gods brought humanity to the world at Orr, with an unstated "but took them away from Orr until their return in 205 BE".
    2. The gods brought/guided humanity to Cantha from a place across the sea.

    The only questions that really remain, are the same questions we've had since Factions:

    1. Why did they come to this world and what was that world?
    2. Where is this mysterious fourth continent (or more accurately now that we got a world map: Which of those unvisited continents is where humanity was taken to)?

    With an added new question:

    1. Why did they not keep humanity on Orr? (Probable answer: Elder Dragons/dragon corruption)

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  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Canthans being here before “proper” humanity would make them an entirely different species.

    Makes absolutely no sense.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    But then theres Canthans...... who were already here before the Gods showed up, and only started worshiping them much later after Dwayna sought them out.

    False, not sure where you even get any of that, in fact.

    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Path_of_Fire—Road_to_the_Desert

    The Six brought humanity to Cantha, just as they brought humanity to the world.

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Even with the Retcons, its implied that Humans prior to Orr have extremely muddled history, making it near impossible to determine what is Truth, Embellishment, or Propaganda. And I don't see the Gods having issue with that, since it simplifies the relationship with their followers.

    There's not much muddling actually. Humans arrived on Elona and Orr in 205 via boat, but arrived on the world much earlier at Arah via portal at an unknown date and were brought to Cantha by the gods. This implies that the timeline is basically:

    Pre-786 BE: Gods brought humanity to Orr via portal, then took them elsewhere.
    786 BE: Gods guided humanity to Cantha's northern shores via boats from that elsewhere; Kurzicks and Luxons showed up later from that elsewhere.
    205 BE: Humanity, on their own, arrived at Orr, Istan, and Kourna from that elsewhere.

    That elsewhere is most likely the Sunrise Crest / Sunken Isles area from the world map we've gotten in Season 2.

    This strongly matches what we were told before GW2's release, where Jeff Grubb hinted that humanity came from a place other than the three continents before showing up at those three continents, hinting it "might" have been south of Cantha or Elona - either the hint was a red herring since there's nothing south of Cantha, or internal lore got changed (more likely). We've known since the Prima Guide for Factions that humanity did not originate from Cantha, and that the Tyrians and Elonians that showed up in 205 BE did not come from Cantha either:

    • Humans came not for Cantha's mainland (closest likely being Shing Jea): Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.
    • Humans of Tyria/Elona came not from Cantha: Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence.
    • Luxons came not from Shing Jea (historians mistakenly thinking Margonite relics were Luxon relics): Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.
      https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    So there's no real muddling, and not really retcons either in this regard. It's always been a mystery, and what little known information is still true. Humanity arrived in the world at unknown point in time. Humanity later arrived in Cantha. Humanity later and independently from Cantha arrived in Tyria/Elona.

    Only two things have changed since GW2's release:

    1. The gods brought humanity to the world at Orr, with an unstated "but took them away from Orr until their return in 205 BE".
    2. The gods brought/guided humanity to Cantha from a place across the sea.

    The only questions that really remain, are the same questions we've had since Factions:

    1. Why did they come to this world and what was that world?
    2. Where is this mysterious fourth continent (or more accurately now that we got a world map: Which of those unvisited continents is where humanity was taken to)?

    With an added new question:

    1. Why did they not keep humanity on Orr? (Probable answer: Elder Dragons/dragon corruption)

    Oh really? I thought the gods visited Orr solo and the humans arrived on that fourth continent with Arah being much later?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Oh really? I thought the gods visited Orr solo and the humans arrived on that fourth continent with Arah being much later?

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    Sounds like they brought humanity to the world at Arah, but given other facts, unless this is a lie (no reason to believe such as of yet), they then took humanity elsewhere. Given the description of Balthazar's and Melandru's arrival upon the world, and where they arrived, it would make sense for the gods to move humanity since there'd be dragon corruption ahoy all over the place.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Lavith.8930Lavith.8930 Member ✭✭
    edited August 27, 2018

    @Fleebag.1384 said:

    3) Do they have non-human worshippers, or would they even accept non-human as worshippers?

    Quaggan worship Mellagan and it's cannon Mellagan is Melandru.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Oh really? I thought the gods visited Orr solo and the humans arrived on that fourth continent with Arah being much later?

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    Sounds like they brought humanity to the world at Arah, but given other facts, unless this is a lie (no reason to believe such as of yet), they then took humanity elsewhere. Given the description of Balthazar's and Melandru's arrival upon the world, and where they arrived, it would make sense for the gods to move humanity since there'd be dragon corruption ahoy all over the place.

    They came in Cantha first. Then went to Orr were the gods established their home in the human city of Arah. The scrolls of Arah are more myth than reality.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    Quaggan worship Mellagan and it's cannon Mellagan is Melandru.

    Technically, yes, a dev has said that, but the quaggan don't believe it themselves. They see Mellaggan as being a separate, specifically aquatic goddess... and also, for what it's worth, believe that she is dead. I don't know if that's quite what Fleebag was looking for.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    Quaggan worship Mellagan and it's cannon Mellagan is Melandru.

    Technically, yes, a dev has said that, but the quaggan don't believe it themselves. They see Mellaggan as being a separate, specifically aquatic goddess... and also, for what it's worth, believe that she is dead. I don't know if that's quite what Fleebag was looking for.

    It should be noted that the comment made by Colin was an offhand remark when giving a first explanation of quaggan at an expo well before pre-release and is less trustworthy than how devs treat forum and interview comments. It would fall under the "canon until suggested/told otherwise later" and given the quaggan lines that came later both in and out of game, it's hard to treat as canon.

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    Sounds like they brought humanity to the world at Arah, but given other facts, unless this is a lie (no reason to believe such as of yet), they then took humanity elsewhere. Given the description of Balthazar's and Melandru's arrival upon the world, and where they arrived, it would make sense for the gods to move humanity since there'd be dragon corruption ahoy all over the place.


    They came in Cantha first. Then went to Orr were the gods established their home in the human city of Arah. The scrolls of Arah are more myth than reality.

    Got a source for that?

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why do we even need the gods?

    Even Kormir- not directly- said that the Commander and his gang need no gods, because they are the gods.

    Lol. Who cares about the gods, screw them.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Lavith.8930Lavith.8930 Member ✭✭
    edited August 27, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    It depends how you read it. It equally means that was just their first appearance in Cantha, but not the first appearance anywhere. A lot of other sources state they arrived in Orr via Arah and then moved near immediately to Cantha bringing humanity with them. Tbey then relocated back to Orr later.

    It all gets a bit muddled, partly because the writers forget/change things or use the unreliable narrator far too needlessly, but i take it as being Orr first, then Cantha.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Randulf.7614 said:

    It depends how you read it. It equally means that was just their first appearance in Cantha, but not the first appearance anywhere. A lot of other sources state they arrived in Orr via Arah and then moved near immediately to Cantha bringing humanity with them. Tbey then relocated back to Orr later.

    It all gets a bit muddled, partly because the writers forget/change things or use the unreliable narrator far too needlessly, but i take it as being Orr first, then Cantha.

    I always took it like they first came to Cantha then human moved to Orr and built Arah. But it's really interesting to considering it the other way =)

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Why do we even need the gods?

    Even Kormir- not directly- said that the Commander and his gang need no gods, because they are the gods.

    Lol. Who cares about the gods, screw them.

    There's been a lot from ArenaNet that indicates that the gods (with the apparent exception of Balthazar...) regard their relationship to humanity as similar to the parents of adult children. They'll help and guide if they can, particularly if it's the only way humans are going to survive (preparations for the Garden fit into this category) but they consider it to be better if the humans can deal with the problem themselves.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Why do we even need the gods?

    Even Kormir- not directly- said that the Commander and his gang need no gods, because they are the gods.

    Lol. Who cares about the gods, screw them.

    I have re-played the personal history last week.
    What it seems to me is that gods is just one element they bring on the scene when they need to explain some source of massive power.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    "First appear in Cantha", as in "the first time they appeared in Cantha" and not "they first appeared in the world at Cantha".

    Nothing about that sentence suggests they came to the world at Cantha, just that 786 BE is when they arrived at Cantha specifically, for either god or humanity. While we have multiple other statements saying they arrived on the world at Arah, and suggestions that they arrived in Cantha via boat from across the sea (per my aforementioned post with a dozen quotes).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

    Depends on how one defines a god. Eekasqueak is pretty easily using the monotheistic definition of god, but if we look at the hundreds of polytheistic faiths in our own world, the Six Gods are pretty darn close to those, such as the Olympians, Asgardians, etc. Very few of those god pantheons created the world, are unkillable, omnipotent, and infallible - hell, most older religions pretty much put the blame of natural disasters and everything wrong with the people and world on the gods' failures or punishments.

    If we're talking about the Abrahamic "one perfect god" then yeah, they don't match, but if we compare to any polytheistic faith, then they match. In that context, the main things that define god would be: Living in a higher plane of existence, the power to mold and create life, some relation to the world's nature/elements (e.g., sea, animals, thunder) or humanity's personalities/cross-culture similarities (e.g., war, honor, justice), and dominion over the souls of the dead. In which the Six match all four primary attributes.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Omnipotent gods will be lore problematic because of question "why they just wipe all with a thought?".

    Then basically they just they have immaterialised this in "the mists". The creator and the ruler of all is the mists itself. since "the mists", its a thing not a person, with a certain chaotic nature, there is no problem dealing with a self-will that would have power over everything.

    However, from the little I read of GW1, it seems to me that the mists in GW1 were presented as less chaotic, having an oracle and entities that would take care of its "order" and the gods being some of these entities.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    "First appear in Cantha", as in "the first time they appeared in Cantha" and not "they first appeared in the world at Cantha".

    Nothing about that sentence suggests they came to the world at Cantha, just that 786 BE is when they arrived at Cantha specifically, for either god or humanity. While we have multiple other statements saying they arrived on the world at Arah, and suggestions that they arrived in Cantha via boat from across the sea (per my aforementioned post with a dozen quotes).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

    Depends on how one defines a god. Eekasqueak is pretty easily using the monotheistic definition of god, but if we look at the hundreds of polytheistic faiths in our own world, the Six Gods are pretty darn close to those, such as the Olympians, Asgardians, etc. Very few of those god pantheons created the world, are unkillable, omnipotent, and infallible - hell, most older religions pretty much put the blame of natural disasters and everything wrong with the people and world on the gods' failures or punishments.

    If we're talking about the Abrahamic "one perfect god" then yeah, they don't match, but if we compare to any polytheistic faith, then they match. In that context, the main things that define god would be: Living in a higher plane of existence, the power to mold and create life, some relation to the world's nature/elements (e.g., sea, animals, thunder) or humanity's personalities/cross-culture similarities (e.g., war, honor, justice), and dominion over the souls of the dead. In which the Six match all four primary attributes.

    Actually, all of those polytheistic religions you mentioned do have the gods playing a part in the creation of the world. Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc.. The human gods in GW2 come off largely as aliens with a lot of power and not gods.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    They are still Gods. Just because you think they don't classify doesn't make it true. They are stated to be Gods by the creators of the universe, therefore, they are Gods.

    What different races view them as is irrelevant, they would be wrong. Nor is what they actually are relevant, powerful Mist beings or whatever. They are most certainly Gods relative to anything else in the GW universe bar the Elder Dragons. They are unique and operate by their own rules clearly separate from other rules.

    Your views are perfectly reasonable for characters in universe to believe, but with us as outside observers of the story we can use the multitude of evidence and hindsight available to us to categorically state that yes, they are indeed Gods.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc..

    I sort of wonder whether the very small allusion to Balthazar having his father's head references a similar conflict in the history of the Six. Maybe in their world Ymir/Cronus won.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    They are still Gods. Just because you think they don't classify doesn't make it true. They are stated to be Gods by the creators of the universe, therefore, they are Gods.

    What different races view them as is irrelevant, they would be wrong. Nor is what they actually are relevant, powerful Mist beings or whatever. They are most certainly Gods relative to anything else in the GW universe bar the Elder Dragons. They are unique and operate by their own rules clearly separate from other rules.

    Your views are perfectly reasonable for characters in universe to believe, but with us as outside observers of the story we can use the multitude of evidence and hindsight available to us to categorically state that yes, they are indeed Gods.

    They’re like most non-Abrahamic religions’ gods. The Norse, Egyptian, Greek etc pantheons all have gods that are beings on a higher “power level” than humans. They can be killed, have children and all those other “mortal” concerns.

    Which stands in stark contrast to the Jewish/Islamic/Christian god who is so overpowered in contrast to everything else in the mythos.

    In view of this, the GW2 gods definitely fit the definition of gods for the vast majority of religions out there.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Why do we even need the gods?

    Even Kormir- not directly- said that the Commander and his gang need no gods, because they are the gods.

    Lol. Who cares about the gods, screw them.

    You seem mistaken. Humanity's worship of the gods is not about 'need' but about the veneration of their powerful patrons, teachers, and guardians. Humanity found their teachings and guidance vital for their formative period in the world, and possibly before. The Gods are essentially humanity's more pro-active Wild Spirits. Human worships the Five/Six because they choose to.

    "God" is an incredibly loose term, whether one applies that historically, religiously, anthropologically, or even linguistically. Religions and faiths have applied this term variously to things such as local nature spirits to cosmic beings of immense power. No one in the Guild Wars Universe doubts that the Five/Six are "gods" apart from really the Just-Born-Yesterday Sylvari.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    "First appear in Cantha", as in "the first time they appeared in Cantha" and not "they first appeared in the world at Cantha".

    Nothing about that sentence suggests they came to the world at Cantha, just that 786 BE is when they arrived at Cantha specifically, for either god or humanity. While we have multiple other statements saying they arrived on the world at Arah, and suggestions that they arrived in Cantha via boat from across the sea (per my aforementioned post with a dozen quotes).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

    Depends on how one defines a god. Eekasqueak is pretty easily using the monotheistic definition of god, but if we look at the hundreds of polytheistic faiths in our own world, the Six Gods are pretty darn close to those, such as the Olympians, Asgardians, etc. Very few of those god pantheons created the world, are unkillable, omnipotent, and infallible - hell, most older religions pretty much put the blame of natural disasters and everything wrong with the people and world on the gods' failures or punishments.

    If we're talking about the Abrahamic "one perfect god" then yeah, they don't match, but if we compare to any polytheistic faith, then they match. In that context, the main things that define god would be: Living in a higher plane of existence, the power to mold and create life, some relation to the world's nature/elements (e.g., sea, animals, thunder) or humanity's personalities/cross-culture similarities (e.g., war, honor, justice), and dominion over the souls of the dead. In which the Six match all four primary attributes.

    Actually, all of those polytheistic religions you mentioned do have the gods playing a part in the creation of the world. Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc.. The human gods in GW2 come off largely as aliens with a lot of power and not gods.

    For the Norse... somewhat. They still had raw material to work from, and we know the Six performed some reshaping of what they found when they arrived. Probably not as significant as turning a giant into a world, but neither are creating something out of nothing. Additionally, only the oldest of the Aesir were involved in the actual act of creation - the younger Aesir (including Thor and Loki) and the Vanir were not.

    For the Greeks... not so much. The world is Gaia - the Olympians were not the creators of the world, but the grandchildren of it.

    Similar observations apply to other mythologies. For instance, Egypt has multiple origin stories, but some of the most well-known Egyptian gods - Osiris, Isis, Set - post-date the creation of the world. In Chinese myth, Pan Gu died, and while in some versions there was a dragon, tortoise, qilin, and fenghuang present to help, by and large the deities of the Chinese pantheon were not involved in the creation. And so on.

    One could argue that descendants of the creator would presumably have inherited the ability to create, they just don't need to any more... however, the Six do appear to be able to shape realms in the Mists. We can't rule out the possibility that they have the capability to create a world, it would just take an impractically long timescale to do so (which, for the record, does not disqualify divinity: some creation myths have the act of creation taking thousands of years, and the gods presumably didn't have that long when they evacuated humanity).

    Bottom line, it would be hard to create a non-arbitrary definition of 'god' that certainly excludes the Six while not also excluding some major gods from real-world pantheonic religions.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    "First appear in Cantha", as in "the first time they appeared in Cantha" and not "they first appeared in the world at Cantha".

    Nothing about that sentence suggests they came to the world at Cantha, just that 786 BE is when they arrived at Cantha specifically, for either god or humanity. While we have multiple other statements saying they arrived on the world at Arah, and suggestions that they arrived in Cantha via boat from across the sea (per my aforementioned post with a dozen quotes).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

    Depends on how one defines a god. Eekasqueak is pretty easily using the monotheistic definition of god, but if we look at the hundreds of polytheistic faiths in our own world, the Six Gods are pretty darn close to those, such as the Olympians, Asgardians, etc. Very few of those god pantheons created the world, are unkillable, omnipotent, and infallible - hell, most older religions pretty much put the blame of natural disasters and everything wrong with the people and world on the gods' failures or punishments.

    If we're talking about the Abrahamic "one perfect god" then yeah, they don't match, but if we compare to any polytheistic faith, then they match. In that context, the main things that define god would be: Living in a higher plane of existence, the power to mold and create life, some relation to the world's nature/elements (e.g., sea, animals, thunder) or humanity's personalities/cross-culture similarities (e.g., war, honor, justice), and dominion over the souls of the dead. In which the Six match all four primary attributes.

    Actually, all of those polytheistic religions you mentioned do have the gods playing a part in the creation of the world. Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc.. The human gods in GW2 come off largely as aliens with a lot of power and not gods.

    For the Norse... somewhat. They still had raw material to work from, and we know the Six performed some reshaping of what they found when they arrived. Probably not as significant as turning a giant into a world, but neither are creating something out of nothing. Additionally, only the oldest of the Aesir were involved in the actual act of creation - the younger Aesir (including Thor and Loki) and the Vanir were not.

    For the Greeks... not so much. The world is Gaia - the Olympians were not the creators of the world, but the grandchildren of it.

    Similar observations apply to other mythologies. For instance, Egypt has multiple origin stories, but some of the most well-known Egyptian gods - Osiris, Isis, Set - post-date the creation of the world. In Chinese myth, Pan Gu died, and while in some versions there was a dragon, tortoise, qilin, and fenghuang present to help, by and large the deities of the Chinese pantheon were not involved in the creation. And so on.

    One could argue that descendants of the creator would presumably have inherited the ability to create, they just don't need to any more... however, the Six do appear to be able to shape realms in the Mists. We can't rule out the possibility that they have the capability to create a world, it would just take an impractically long timescale to do so (which, for the record, does not disqualify divinity: some creation myths have the act of creation taking thousands of years, and the gods presumably didn't have that long when they evacuated humanity).

    Bottom line, it would be hard to create a non-arbitrary definition of 'god' that certainly excludes the Six while not also excluding some major gods from real-world pantheonic religions.

    Osiris and Isis came after Ra, who did create life in the world and was somewhat literally the sun. Odin killed Ymir, the rest of the Aesir were his descendants, there's nothing saying that referring to the six as not gods is any less correct in universe as referring to them as gods, in universe. It's ambiguous enough that Asura referring to them as just powerful entities isn't really incorrect, in the end it's purely an argument of semantics.

    I'd still argue against the worship of them being a good thing though. I'm of the opinion that power corrupts and they're not to be trusted because of that.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gods are the ones that shape the world as they please, they make huge decisions that have a massive impact to the world.

    They have a will to either kill or save the dragons, villains etc.

    It fits to the Tyrian gods and also to the Commander and his gang.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Actually, all of those polytheistic religions you mentioned do have the gods playing a part in the creation of the world. Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc.. The human gods in GW2 come off largely as aliens with a lot of power and not gods.

    Some, yes, but not all. "Creating worlds" is not a prerequisite for being a god in polytheistic faiths, which is what I was saying, but some gods were capable of creating worlds. These were usually primordial gods that represent the very foundation of the cosmos, and almost every one is slain to create the world, or the gods were literal children of the cosmos/world.

    The Six do not seem to be primordial gods, the only known "entities" to fill this role in the GWverse would be The Mists, though it's not exactly a living thing.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    They are still Gods. Just because you think they don't classify doesn't make it true. They are stated to be Gods by the creators of the universe, therefore, they are Gods.

    What different races view them as is irrelevant, they would be wrong. Nor is what they actually are relevant, powerful Mist beings or whatever. They are most certainly Gods relative to anything else in the GW universe bar the Elder Dragons. They are unique and operate by their own rules clearly separate from other rules.

    Your views are perfectly reasonable for characters in universe to believe, but with us as outside observers of the story we can use the multitude of evidence and hindsight available to us to categorically state that yes, they are indeed Gods.

    They’re like most non-Abrahamic religions’ gods. The Norse, Egyptian, Greek etc pantheons all have gods that are beings on a higher “power level” than humans. They can be killed, have children and all those other “mortal” concerns.

    Which stands in stark contrast to the Jewish/Islamic/Christian god who is so overpowered in contrast to everything else in the mythos.

    In view of this, the GW2 gods definitely fit the definition of gods for the vast majority of religions out there.

    also the thing of each one have a domain is a very politheystic signature.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    edit: wrong post.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Did the old gods bring the Skritts with them or not..?

    Anet.. Where's my Pony mount..!?

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    No.
    The only race they brought to Tyria were humans. Forgotten and Dwarves worshipped the Six or at least Dwayna and Grenth in the Dwarves' case.
    So they weren't and aren't "human only".

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trancer.7950 said:
    Did the old gods bring the Skritts with them or not..?

    The skritt were down in the depths were the asura. When Primordus rose, both the asura and skritt were chased to the surface.

    Currently, on Tyria, only the himans still worship the Six. More used to, all of the allies of humanity. But the dwarves were turned to stone statues by the Great Dwarf, and the Forgotten either disappeared from the desert, or were Branded (and revived) when Kralkatorrik flew south of Glint's lair. So humanity found new allies, who each had their own faiths.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    No.
    The only race they brought to Tyria were humans. Forgotten and Dwarves worshipped the Six or at least Dwayna and Grenth in the Dwarves' case.
    So they weren't and aren't "human only".

    We aren't actually sure that humanity is the "only" race the Six brought to Tyria. The Forgotten came from the Mists, too, and some sources that are now questioned say they were brought by the Six (which makes sense given the Forgotten in the realms of the gods and their stated ancient practices for the Six that seem to date thousands of years). There might have been others - Elonian legends claim that harpies are fallen servants of Dwayna, for example, and at least some centaurs worshiped Balthazar at one point despite the overall centaur culture (turning to?) nature worship (which could, theoretically, derive from Melandru worship).

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  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Speaking of which, I wonder if godhood as it relates to the Six is exclusively dependent on a human “host” or if any species can acquire it. Like we kill a god and a hapless Quaggan stumbles into their residual “god goop” - instant Quaggan god!

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lavith.8930 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This article says they brought humanity to Cantha, but it never says where they arrived on the planet from another world. We know the Six and humanity are not native to the world, and not only does the Orrian History Scrolls say they arrived on the world at Arah, but so does the Seventh Reaper.

    As I said in my prior post, there's a lot of other suggestions to colloborate the notion that the Six arrived at Arah, brought humanity to the world there, then moved them elsewhere. Nothing has so far debunked or implied against the Orrian History Scrolls, nothing suggests they are "more myth than reality".

    So I'd appreciate you don't pronounce something as fact unless you have a source.

    That same article says they first appear in Cantha ... So ...
    (By the way i can't argue a lot cause english is not my native language, sorry about that, truly)
    "Timeline
    786 BE: The Gods Arrive, and They Brought Friends
    The Six Gods first appear in Cantha, bringing humanity with them. Like gardeners starting a new patch, they transplant human beings to this lush new world, working the soil and tending their seedbeds to ensure the new crop will take root, spread, and thrive."

    So they came in Cantha first, they're not native to the world so they obviously come from another one.
    I'm not sure if i totally got what you said if not I apologize.

    "First appear in Cantha", as in "the first time they appeared in Cantha" and not "they first appeared in the world at Cantha".

    Nothing about that sentence suggests they came to the world at Cantha, just that 786 BE is when they arrived at Cantha specifically, for either god or humanity. While we have multiple other statements saying they arrived on the world at Arah, and suggestions that they arrived in Cantha via boat from across the sea (per my aforementioned post with a dozen quotes).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

    Many Asurans seems the gods as just extremely powerful mists entitys that only pose of Gods.

    Well that's what they are, they're not omnipotent and didn't create the world. They're not infallible either and can be killed so they're not truly immortal.

    Depends on how one defines a god. Eekasqueak is pretty easily using the monotheistic definition of god, but if we look at the hundreds of polytheistic faiths in our own world, the Six Gods are pretty darn close to those, such as the Olympians, Asgardians, etc. Very few of those god pantheons created the world, are unkillable, omnipotent, and infallible - hell, most older religions pretty much put the blame of natural disasters and everything wrong with the people and world on the gods' failures or punishments.

    If we're talking about the Abrahamic "one perfect god" then yeah, they don't match, but if we compare to any polytheistic faith, then they match. In that context, the main things that define god would be: Living in a higher plane of existence, the power to mold and create life, some relation to the world's nature/elements (e.g., sea, animals, thunder) or humanity's personalities/cross-culture similarities (e.g., war, honor, justice), and dominion over the souls of the dead. In which the Six match all four primary attributes.

    Actually, all of those polytheistic religions you mentioned do have the gods playing a part in the creation of the world. Slaying Ymir for the Norse, the Titans for the Greeks which the gods are offspring of, etc.. The human gods in GW2 come off largely as aliens with a lot of power and not gods.

    For the Norse... somewhat. They still had raw material to work from, and we know the Six performed some reshaping of what they found when they arrived. Probably not as significant as turning a giant into a world, but neither are creating something out of nothing. Additionally, only the oldest of the Aesir were involved in the actual act of creation - the younger Aesir (including Thor and Loki) and the Vanir were not.

    For the Greeks... not so much. The world is Gaia - the Olympians were not the creators of the world, but the grandchildren of it.

    Similar observations apply to other mythologies. For instance, Egypt has multiple origin stories, but some of the most well-known Egyptian gods - Osiris, Isis, Set - post-date the creation of the world. In Chinese myth, Pan Gu died, and while in some versions there was a dragon, tortoise, qilin, and fenghuang present to help, by and large the deities of the Chinese pantheon were not involved in the creation. And so on.

    One could argue that descendants of the creator would presumably have inherited the ability to create, they just don't need to any more... however, the Six do appear to be able to shape realms in the Mists. We can't rule out the possibility that they have the capability to create a world, it would just take an impractically long timescale to do so (which, for the record, does not disqualify divinity: some creation myths have the act of creation taking thousands of years, and the gods presumably didn't have that long when they evacuated humanity).

    Bottom line, it would be hard to create a non-arbitrary definition of 'god' that certainly excludes the Six while not also excluding some major gods from real-world pantheonic religions.

    Osiris and Isis came after Ra, who did create life in the world and was somewhat literally the sun. Odin killed Ymir, the rest of the Aesir were his descendants, there's nothing saying that referring to the six as not gods is any less correct in universe as referring to them as gods, in universe. It's ambiguous enough that Asura referring to them as just powerful entities isn't really incorrect, in the end it's purely an argument of semantics.

    I'd still argue against the worship of them being a good thing though. I'm of the opinion that power corrupts and they're not to be trusted because of that.

    Gods are powerful beings here.

    Like you say, it really is an argument of semantics.

    In the world of Tyria, the word "god" is the word that is used to denote the Six and beings considered to be similar in nature to the Six. They're essentially the yardstick which defines what a 'god' is. If it turns out that they don't have properties that you believed they had, do they stop being gods (in which case, what do you call them?), or does the term 'god' simply mean something different to what you thought it did?

    Cats, for instance, have been associated with all sorts of supernatural properties in history, but as we've determined that they don't have those properties, we don't stop calling them cats.

    Even outside the world of Tyria... at the bottom line, the gods behave like and have the properties of pantheistic deities. Maybe they didn't create Tyria, but most pantheistic gods weren't involved in the creation of the world either, and given that we don't know much about their predecessors except that some of them have predecessors, we can't say for sure that they don't have world-creators in their ancestry. Otherwise... they certainly have more power than all but the most heroic mortals, and each one embodies and has dominion over a concept.

    Whether they should be worshiped... that's another question. Honestly, I get the feeling that most of the gods have reached a point where they think that humans should outgrow worship and stand on their own (the second part having been explicitly stated by ArenaNet). They'd probably still like to be respected, but worship per se might not be something that the majority of the gods even want any more.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Speaking of which, I wonder if godhood as it relates to the Six is exclusively dependent on a human “host” or if any species can acquire it. Like we kill a god and a hapless Quaggan stumbles into their residual “god goop” - instant Quaggan god!

    Dwayna and Melandru have wings (allegedly Abaddon too, before his fall), and Abaddon's predecessor was supposedly a spider, so I think there's a pretty good chance of non-humans being able to get the role. There's still the question of whether a blessing from the other gods is needed, though. I'm not sure a hapless passerby, human or quaggan, could get the gig.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    There's still the question of whether a blessing from the other gods is needed, though.

    The GW1 PC seems to think so, despite them and Kormir believing it was mere words when the blessings were given.

    "In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory."

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