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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better. It's because weaver became a poor choice. And by the way, there is no beginner-friendly weaver build. The last time ele had anything beginner-friendly was more than an year ago, when d/wh FA tempest was still a thing. And if you think dumbing down the game by making brainless builds the top performance is in any way healthy for the game or the community... well, it seems we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Anet has been going the direction of putting power builds around 32-33k and condi builds around 35-36k. Every class can achieve this except necro and condi weaver.

    Honestly, I agree with you that waver is out of favor now. It is not a damage issue, but if you consider that it is a low HP pool and light armor, it is at a disadvantage. It also does not provide anything to the team. Resolution? I dunno.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better. It's because weaver became a poor choice. And by the way, there is no beginner-friendly weaver build. The last time ele had anything beginner-friendly was more than an year ago, when d/wh FA tempest was still a thing. And if you think dumbing down the game by making brainless builds the top performance is in any way healthy for the game or the community... well, it seems we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Anet has been going the direction of putting power builds around 32-33k and condi builds around 35-36k. Every class can achieve this except necro and condi weaver.

    Honestly, I agree with you that waver is out of favor now. It is not a damage issue, but if you consider that it is a low HP pool and light armor, it is at a disadvantage. It also does not provide anything to the team. Resolution? I dunno.

    The low effective hit points are only part of it, and a small part at that. The complex gameplay is the bigger disadvantage, as it leads to less reliable performance and lower damage numbers overall. It could be compensated by something else, however there's nothing of value to offer.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can never have "everything" working.

    That's nonsense, you can't have something which does "everything" at once but there's no (sane) reason why something designed to do X shouldn't be able to properly do the one thing it was designed for.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So long as the game offers meaningful gameplay choices, you will be able to make a bad build which "won't work". Hence my remark about your build making sense.

    But that's beside the point now isn't it? I already told you "even if you have the right stats and all" so it should be clear that I wasn't talking about some weird gimmicky stuff without any real synergy.

    Except, things that are designed to do X fail at doing X all the time. There is no such thing as a perfect system and thus things fail to perform at the level they are intended to. That's why we have recalls. That's why games have patches. That's why we have mechanics, doctors, repair men etc etc. Things fail. In regards to a faction based video game such as this the level of math that is needed to make everything work ensures that somethings are going to fail at the thing they are designed to do. Though most things are not designed to just do one thing and thus the likelihood that something goes wrong can increase. And some things you are just never going to get right. Failure does happen. In regards to balance, I think there is zero way for a gaming company to get balance to the level that players feel it should be at. Players lump learn to play issues into balances issues. Players lump community created issues into balance. Players lump pet peeves into balance. Players lump unmet expectations (both justified and unjustified) into balance issues. Players lump not understanding something into balance issues. I find most balance discussions to be one part actual mechanical problem and two parts player frustrations and other issues.

    Honestly, there is no sane reason to expect everything to work properly due to just how often things fail in life.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There aren't many posts in this thread that even consider that the ideas people have for what 'balanced' means don't have much meaning in a game that doesn't need them. That's no coincidence since Anet made it pretty clear when it was released they were going to do things ... LOTS of things ... very differently than players were used to. No wonder so many struggle to understand it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Scar.1793Scar.1793 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There aren't many posts in this thread that even consider that the ideas people have for what 'balanced' means don't have much meaning in a game that doesn't need them. That's no coincidence since Anet made it pretty clear when it was released they were going to do things ... LOTS of things ... very differently than players were used to. No wonder so many struggle to understand it.

    No doubt that turned out good for the PvP scenes. Or even PvE come to think of it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Depends what you mean 'good'. I don't PVP but for PVE, I think it's awesome. I'm not waiting for 'THAT' class to join my team to do content. I'm not 'fighting' for loot rights on anything ever. Anet has set success thresholds low enough to accommodate people playing classes they want, not the class/build combinations that are needed.

    The only people this doesn't work for are the people that hang on to their historical MMO baggage.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just caught this ... if you don't 'understand' Anet's approach to developing (which includes balancing) a class, then look at THIS:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

    Notice:

    1. Independent of other classes: There are NO mention or comparisons to other classes or the skills they have. Players commonly use this as a way to justify their suggestions to change classes. It's irrelevant.
    2. THEME-based changes: All these new things are related in some way to the THEME of the class, not some missing performance or 'gap' in what they do. Again, players constantly cite performance issues as THE reason to change a class, even going so far as to think it's the ONLY reason to do so.
    3. Game-mode independent: These changes are NOT being done because of performance issues in a game mode. Players will insist changes are necessary because of game mode performance.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Mongk.2467Mongk.2467 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I just caught this ... if you don't 'understand' Anet's approach to developing (which includes balancing) a class, then look at THIS:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

    Notice:

    1. Independent of other classes: There are NO mention or comparisons to other classes or the skills they have. Players commonly use this as a way to justify their suggestions to change classes. It's irrelevant.
    2. THEME-based changes: All these new things are related in some way to the THEME of the class, not some missing performance or 'gap' in what they do. Again, players constantly cite performance issues as THE reason to change a class, even going so far as to think it's the ONLY reason to do so.
    3. Game-mode independent: These changes are NOT being done because of performance issues in a game mode. Players will insist changes are necessary because of game mode performance.

    It works in world pve, everything works there, but they have added another game modes and made roles that they didnt support in many aspects. When a person like me who really likes a certain type of role see it, we think that there is space to it, to our favorite gameplay, but things seems to be (or were, since now we have a new team to balance in general and i hope they mantain a spot to every role) so random that is scary to invest so many time into something that could become useless in "competitive" places.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    That's because you drank the meta kool-aid, or try to team with others that have. That's not how the game is designed, so that kind of thinking becomes a significant limitation on players created BY players. The people that insist on meta play are by their own actions, making themselves extinct; continuously restricting what classes they are willing to play with in an environment where that can change significantly is not healthy way to propagate ideas about playing the game and grow the pool of potential 'meta-lovers'.

    What is ironic to me is that people try to 'predict' what's not going to be nerfed into uselessness ... There is a paradox there; if you recognize the meta (which is optimized play), the clues to why Anet can't balance to it are already in there.

    Just go ask Ele's how 'balancing to the meta' has worked for them ...

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better.

    You couldn't possibly know that unless you asked every one of those players. I would bet for a lot. Weaver was never their main class and they only played it because it was king of dps over their preferred profession. But both those arguments are subjective.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better.

    You couldn't possibly know that unless you asked every one of those players. I would bet for a lot. Weaver was never their main class and they only played it because it was king of dps over their preferred profession. But both those arguments are subjective.

    And they ALL just happened to main exactly the professions that became the better dps options right now? Please...

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better.

    You couldn't possibly know that unless you asked every one of those players. I would bet for a lot. Weaver was never their main class and they only played it because it was king of dps over their preferred profession. But both those arguments are subjective.

    And they ALL just happened to main exactly the professions that became the better dps options right now? Please...

    What metrics are you looking at that you made this 1 to 1 comparison?
    Edit: really hope you're not using raidar leaderboards as the base for this argument.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not leaderboards, global stats.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    the biggest gripe I have with anet balance is that they refuse to buff useless or mediocre traits / utilities / weapons.
    this makes the meta such a thin line to walk its no wonder so many people choose not to.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the biggest gripe I have with anet balance is that they refuse to buff useless or mediocre traits / utilities / weapons.

    I agree but I'd say that the fact that they're willing to nerf these things even further is a lot worse.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

    As a fellow necro player i feel with you.
    Ele should definetly be better in pve than it is right now. Not how it was before, that it's like 10k above everyone, but that it's rewarding to have a more complex Playstyle than power engineering or thief.

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