WvW and it's problems, a complete list — Guild Wars 2 Forums

WvW and it's problems, a complete list

edited August 30, 2018 in WvW

Warning wall of text!

I am doing my very best to be concise, but there is a lot of things to discuss.
I would appreciate if you do try to keep responses to this post factual and correctly quote the part you agree/disagree with and why.

The current state of WvW is atrocious. I will go through all (might miss some) of it's problems as someone who plays in a small very organized group of 2-5 people (depending on the day), while also touching problems with running solo and what is currently wrong with zerging.

I will also briefly discuss what would fix these issues. I will try to avoid singling one class out as the cause of all these problems and try to provide as general information as possible. I will try my very best to avoid class balance as this is a subject likely to derail the thread and this thread is not about specific issues but about global game-wide issues, even if some of these issues are partly or fully limited to a subset of the classes.

I will also be listing the main offending classes (sometimes specifying build) for each category, note this is not a call to nerf any particular class, just me pointing out that they are some of the main offenders for one or multiple parts of what makes WvW bad. These could be missing some classes/builds as I might forget them, but the examples are mainly there to illustrate a point.

  1. Low-Risk/High-Reward gameplay

1.1 Builds with access to incredibly high mobility.
Some builds have so much mobility that trying to kill them on most other classes is an excercise in futility, you can make them flee/reset, but you will never actually get the kill, this means that they will keep resetting the fight until they eventually win, be it the 3rd or the 33rd try. This is both frustrating and very poor gameplay as your best option becomes finding somewhere relative safe (generally water/a tower/somewhere with LoS) and wait for them to get bored. These issues are further compounded on by that they are generally the same ones with access to stealths which will be discussed in subsection (1.2) and very high burst (which will be discussed in subsection 1.3)
My Solution: Make a lot more of the movement skills require a target so you can't use them to reset. Nerf ones where this is not applicable (1-2 movement options at most w/o a target seems reasonable/class)
Main Offender(s): Thieves (all specs), Mirage, Soulbeast, Druid, Warrior (all specs), Revenant (Shiro)

1.2 Builds with good access to stealth.
There is very little counterplay to stealth, you can try to guess where they go, but the odds of that are generally about as good as me picking 3 numbers between 1 and 18 and you trying to guess all 3 (360 degrees to go in, your margin of error is at best 20 degrees, they can change the direction hence the 3 times). Even if you do manage to predict where they go, the builds with access to stealth are generally not slow builds w/o any mobility skills.
My Solution: Make stealth give you an unpurgeable version of cripple that prevents you from using movement skills. This would make actually finding the person in stealth rewarding while making it so that when you don't they have at least cleared a lot less distance.
Main Offender(s): Thief (all specs), Mirage, Soulbeast, Druid

1.3 Builds with very high burst damage and strong "defenses".
This point is basically a combination of subsection (1.1) and (1.2), but extended to include all active defenses (such as Endure Pain for example). When builds can go for their full burst on you (which can 1 shot you if you don't play counter accordingly (and sometimes even then depending on what build you're running and what build is bursting you). Now if you after surviving their full burst could properly retaliate this would be far less of a problem, but this burst is generally followed up by chaining several mobility skills together with using invulnerabilities (or stealth or similar). Meaning that the sequence goes something like Burst>You survive>Reset fight>10 sec later>Burst>You Survive>Reset Fight>Wait 10 sec>Repeat. This is less of an issue when you yourself play the kind of class/build that can do this, but for those of us who don't enjoy burst>reset gameplay there are very few viable options.
My Solution: Implement my suggestions from subsection (1.1) and (1.2) and reduce the damage of the burstiest skills across the board (especially ones without a clear tell)
Main Offender(s): Thieves (all specs), Mirages, Soulbeasts, Warriors, Holosmith, Fresh Air Ele variants

1.4 Builds that combine some previous points with long range.
Once again the issue here is counterplay, the builds that can combine these things also generally do the bulk of their burst with unblockable, which removes yet another counterplay option, leaving LoS as the only real counterplay option. These builds are in my opinion not more of a problem in even numbered fights than similar builds w/o range but their range makes very oppressive when outnumbering the enemy.
My Solution: Ranged attacks should never be unblockable (or unblockable shouldn't affect projectile destruction/reflection). Ranged attacks should either be similar to that of staff elementalist (slow and telegraphed) or do much lower damage, there should be no 15k unblockable attacks.
Main Offender(s): Deadeyes, Soulbeasts, Revenant (Hammer+Shiro, so to a lesser degree than the others)

1.5 Overall Damage Proliferation
This point isn't targeted at any specific class or issue but rather at the fact that the game has seen overall damage go up, meaning fights become more burst, less attrition. In my opinion attrition based or "grindy" fights are more healthy for a game as they give each player more possibilities to play good/bad meaning that they measure "skill" in a better way.
My Solution: This problem is often due to a lot of stacked +x% damage modifiers, reducing the number of these in the game would be a very good start
Main Offender(s): Game-wide issue

  1. Arbitrary benefits from zerging
    There are several mechanics that currently benefit low skilled "blobs" more so than numbers simply should. I do believe that having more numbers should be an advantage, yet having mechanics that reward it beyond just that you have more "total hp" and more "total dps" etc is poor design. Mechanics that do this are typically mechanics where there is a very low amount of "skill" needed to perform the mechanic optimally, or close to optimally.

The mechanics that currently reward this is:
2.1 The AoE cap on damaging skills
AoE skills are supposed to be the counterplay to multiple stacked enemies, yet the optimal counterplay to AoE effects is to stack more players in tighter blobs, which in turn makes single target effects all but useless (due to heals being AoE and "smart")(especially ones that can be bodyblocked). Outnumbering the enemy is it's own benefit, such a strategy does not also need a 60-90% blanket damage/cc reduction.
My solution is simple, just remove the AoE cap from any offensive skills completely.
Main Offender(s): Everyone

2.2 The way the downstate and ressing works vastly promotes bigger groups.
Ressing is something which you can't do better (except for Mercy runes/ressing traits) except for just having more people do it, it is also in the current state way way too fast to ress 1 player, even without mercy runes/similar, but when there is several mercy runes using players the downstate becomes what you really fight against as everyone you down almost instantly gets ressed.
My Solution: for this would be to cut ressing speed by 50-75%, remove ressing traits from the game and remove mercy runes from the game and in addition to this add a debuff on people currently getting stomped that reduced their "healing gained" by 100%. Several/all downstate skills should be nerfed to roughly the level of the Necromancer/Revenant ones (easily counterable, only 1 interrupt, can't interrupt people with stab or interrupt through blind) or completely remove all downstate skills beyond 1 and 4.
Main Offender(s): Druids, Scrappers, Guardians, Mercy Runes

2.3 Builds with a large number of "double duty" skills.
A great example here would be Scourge (there are other too), which prior to February 06th Patch was my favorite class and main. After multiple excessive nerfs scourge is still amazing at zerging, but is now terrible for anything else. The reasons they are great at zerging is because all of their skills are both offensive and defensive at the same time, while many of their skills have a target cap of 10. The dual nature of their skills means that there is never a "bad" time to use them, meaning that while the average person in a zerg might not use the skills optimally, they will be used "good enough" to be effective (Back when Scourge wasn't trash outside of a zerg, I considered playing one optimally outside of a zerg to be one of the harder classes to master, while being mediocre/good enough to be one of the easiest classes(ie a bad Scourge player was still a threat, but there was a lot of room for improvement)).
My Solution: Make more of these skills have an option to be either supportive or damaging, for example picking up "Path of Corruption" on Scourge might make f2 corrupt 2 boons like it used to, but no longer convert any conditions (or only convert conditions on yourself). Basically more tradeoffs and less skills that are mediocre at a lot of stuff. This rewards good decision making.
Main Offender(s): Scourge, Firebrand, Warrior, Herald

2.4 The exponential power growth of multiple players due to supportive non-supports
A lot of optimal single target "buffs" or "defensives" have an equally strong AoE part, for example, "Healing Turret", "Sand Cascade", "Leap of Resolve" just to name a few skills from various classes are all abilities you would use while playing their respective class solo, that makes them very difficult to tune correctly as they must be strong enough to use without any allies, but while doing 5x as much as "usual" they become overpowered. AoE healing and support builds are not at all in themselves a problem, I personally find that they are part of what makes WvW interesting, what is a problem is when every "offensive" build runs with several supportive skills by "accident", ie skills they would be using even if they only affected the caster.
My Solution: The lines between support builds and non-support builds should be clearer, for example a nerf targeted at "Healing Turret" might include removing the personal heal on it (reducing it's self healing by 50%) or making the second part of the healing self-exclusive, now I am not saying "Healing Turret" in particular does or doesn't needs nerfing, it is just a good example of that kind of skill.
Main Offender(s): Scourge, Firebrand, Guardian, Herald, Renegade, Scrapper

2.5 Retalation
I originally while writing this did not include this point. Mainly because it did not cross my mind. But after reading several replies I realize that this deserves to make the list. This boon can sometimes be doing 60% of the damage you take (according to my damage meter's incoming damage)(or more in extreme examples). There is no counterplay beyond "don't attack".
My Solution: Redesign the buff completely, don't even keep the concept.
Main Offenders: Guards and Chronomancers are the ones that give the boon out the most, but the sources of it aren't the problem.

  1. Various uncategorized issues
    I will here write issues which I do not feel adequately fit into other categories

3.1 Resistance
This boon is poor design. I assume it was intended as a way of countering conditions in a similar vein that protection counters power damage. It however does so far too well, if specced for it, you can have a ridiculous uptime on this boon, especially in a group, blanket immunity to one entire type of damage does not seem like good design.
My Solution: Keep the immunity to impairing conditions and make it reduce condition damage by 33-50%, adjust availability accordingly.
Main Offender(s): Firebrands, Mallyx Revenant

3.2 Access to condition cleanses
A large majority of the condi clears in this game are AoE, this means that the larger the enemy force is, the worse condition builds become compared to power builds. I have long been of the opinion that group condition clears are too strong, while for most classes, personal condition clears are too weak (this used to be a bigger problem and now doesn't affect as many classes).
My Solution: Nerf some of the more spammable AoE condi clears, while buffing personal condi clears.
Main Offender(s): (Too much Group): Firebrand, Scourge, Heal Scrapper,
Main Offender(s): (Too little personal). Necromancer (Mainly Power Variants), Revenant (Power Variants),

3.3 Excessive CC-spam
This is more evident when outnumbered, but can be seen in equal fights too. CC effects are generally needed for a game, however most games have some mechanic that prevents you from being CC-locked. Being CC-locked is a situation where you get caught in a loop of CC effects until you die, generally because your stunbreak is on cooldown, this is a bigger problem for some classes than others.
My Solution: Introduce a diminishing returns effect on CC, ie everytime you get CCed you either get a few seconds of immunity, or CC-effects applied to you afterwards have a reduced duration, how to make this work with the various lengths of CC effects is the hard part, but something along the lines of the longer your previous CC-effects were and the more of them was applied to you, the more powerful the diminishing returns. Adding more stunbreaks/sources of stability for problem classes is also an option, but imo a more shortsighted and more band-aidy one.
Main Offender(s): Spellbreakers, Holosmith, Chronomancer, Large Fights

  1. TL;DR
    This can be summarized to, do something about the burst+reset meta in smallscale and do something about the exponential power growth for bigger groups from low-effort classes.
<1

Comments

  • edited August 28, 2018

    @Etria.3642 said:
    This just sounds like you want us all on the same exact class with no differences between us. No offense but I do not. I like my different options even if it does mean I plod along without someone to speed me up. And if I'm by myself I like the option of a stealth class.

    Well thought out though just. Not my thing.

    On the contrary, I want less builds that are mediocre at everything, and more specialized builds. I do however want the "meta" to be less burst>reset and more attrition, this does not equal to everyone being the same, in reality it equals the opposite as in attrition based fights what class/build you play has a bigger impact. In my opinion burst>reset builds have very little difference between each other except what color their animations have.

  • @XenesisII.1540 said:
    wants to avoid talking about class balance... goes on to talk about class balance problems... kay...

    "Another derailing post. ^^" surprisingly accurate. But sure I will take the obvious bait, do point to where actual class balance is discussed in a non-generalized way that isn't applicable to multiple classes (beyond when used as examples).

    The thread is about general game balance, game mechanics and good versus bad mechanics, if some classes have more or less of these, then that could speak about their balance but bad design does not necessarily mean imbalanced. It just means that the mechanics are poorly designed and leads to bad gameplay, when the builds that uses these kinda mechanics are stronger, the problems are more evident, but the bad design is bad no matter how the numbers are tweaked. There is no point in the first post where I point to a specific class or skill and say "nerf this" or "buff this"

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    Hold on I was actually typing a proper response but hit the back button on accident ~.~

    Just because you don't call out a specific skill to nerf in a certain way and talk about the problems in general, specific skills will still need to be changed and classes will need to be balanced around those changes. There's no need to dance around the issue.

    1.1 Movement skills require a target player, a target area, or you can turn off auto target and fire it off in the direction you're facing. What specifically are you looking to change here on what skills?

    1.2 This solution will do little to stealth users. It's still a guessing game where they are, a good stealth user can already juke you without movement skills it's about direction, some can chain stealth and just wait out the debuff. There needs to be better stealth detection in the game, but that's not going to happen. Stealth is broken, it will always be broken, because an entire class was built around it.

    1.3 Game definitely needs to move back to more tactical combat and not just run and gun or aoe bombing. I mean people should at least be allowed to fire off their heal in a fight. Without a doubt, burst needs to be toned down, especially from stealth.

    1.4 Reason for more unblockables is because there's more reflect and blocks, just look at that new giant orange bubble plaguing the fields these days. So both areas about need to be toned down.

    1.5 While I do think damage can be high in the game, I'm not sure toning down overall damage would do much, players would just try to stack more in their group to make up for loss damage. Burst does need to be taken down.

    2.1 Believe they said once it's a technical hurdle to increase the cap. Also it would probably cause a major amount of lag in the game.

    2.2 No down state.

    2.3 I don't think a lot of double duty skills should exist either.

    2.4 Nerf boons, the boons vs conditions combat has been a ridiculous direction to take combat into since june 23rd 2015, yes anet never going to let that go.

    3.1 Should have worked like protection in the first place. 100% was ridiculous, but that just goes to show how damaging they wanted to make conditions.

    3.2 Classes should have near equal access to cleanses, I always thought all personal heals in the game should have had a cleanse on it, and a utility cleanse skill, with less aoe cleanses in general on long enough timers so that they are not spammable in zerg fights and in fact made better use of in organized groups.

    3.3 Diminishing returns, they have it on loot but not on control spells, go figure.

    Another derailing post ^ - Anet
    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" - "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon." - "Woo!"
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WaH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Hold on I was actually typing a proper response but hit the back button on accident ~.~

    Just because you don't call out a specific skill to nerf in a certain way and talk about the problems in general, specific skills will still need to be changed and classes will need to be balanced around those changes. There's no need to dance around the issue.

    1.1 Movement skills require a target player, a target area, or you can turn off auto target and fire it off in the direction you're facing. What specifically are you looking to change here on what skills?

    1.2 This solution will do little to stealth users. It's still a guessing game where they are, a good stealth user can already juke you without movement skills it's about direction, some can chain stealth and just wait out the debuff. There needs to be better stealth detection in the game, but that's not going to happen. Stealth is broken, it will always be broken, because an entire class was built around it.

    1.3 Game definitely needs to move back to more tactical combat and not just run and gun or aoe bombing. I mean people should at least be allowed to fire off their heal in a fight. Without a doubt, burst needs to be toned down, especially from stealth.

    1.4 Reason for more unblockables is because there's more reflect and blocks, just look at that new giant orange bubble plaguing the fields these days. So both areas about need to be toned down.

    1.5 While I do think damage can be high in the game, I'm not sure toning down overall damage would do much, players would just try to stack more in their group to make up for loss damage. Burst does need to be taken down.

    2.1 Believe they said once it's a technical hurdle to increase the cap. Also it would probably cause a major amount of lag in the game.

    2.2 No down state.

    2.3 I don't think a lot of double duty skills should exist either.

    2.4 Nerf boons, the boons vs conditions combat has been a ridiculous direction to take combat into since june 23rd 2015, yes anet never going to let that go.

    3.1 Should have worked like protection in the first place. 100% was ridiculous, but that just goes to show how damaging they wanted to make conditions.

    3.2 Classes should have near equal access to cleanses, I always thought all personal heals in the game should have had a cleanse on it, and a utility cleanse skill, with less aoe cleanses in general on long enough timers so that they are not spammable in zerg fights and in fact made better use of in organized groups.

    3.3 Diminishing returns, they have it on loot but not on control spells, go figure.

    1.1 As in skills like warrior greatsword 5 should require a target so you can use it to get to your enemy, but not away from your enemy.

    1.2 It would mean that you can at least keep up with them if you can guess, if someone where to suggest "remove stealth completely" I'd be all for it, but trying to keep the suggestions relatively realistic (imo thief isn't designed around stealth, they're designed aroun mobility)

    1.3 So we agree

    1.4 Some skills giving reflect/absorb are a bit overtoned yes, WeD and Firebrand bubble being the worst offenders, but in concept long range unreflectable/unabsorbable are a bad idea.

    1.5 A lot of the burst are from very high stacked damage modifiers (deadeye malice, soulbeast has like 4-5 different +x% dmg modifiers at least)

    2.1 That is an excuse, removing cap solves lag
    Zergs fights are shorter > Lag is shorter duration
    Game needs to calculate what targets gets hit anyway, also takes performance

    2.2 I wish lol, complete removal of downstate is something I doubt would ever happen, even if I would support it, once again trying for more "realistic" suggestions

    2.3 Agreed

    2.4 Well I don't have anything against boonshare mesmer for example as that is a build based around boons and very little else. I am bothered by specs like heralds who aren't actually supports, they just kinda randomly give out boons.

    3.1 Yes

    3.2 Some difference is okay, current state is not yes.

    3.3 Agreed

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    I don't think the game is really in that bad of a place balance wise I just think it's gotten boring because nothing much has changed in six years and there's not really much to work towards in game for anyone who has been playing a long time.

    I do agree that generally speaking there aren't enough tradeoffs built into class design and I agree that downed state is a problem. I don't have any issue with resistance and I play condi exclusively but I can see why you might have more of an issue with it on scourge than i do on rev. I don't have any issue with the amount of condi cleanses or with the amount of cc in the game currently.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:
    I don't think the game is really in that bad of a place balance wise I just think it's gotten boring because nothing much has changed in six years and there's not really much to work towards in game for anyone who has been playing a long time.

    I do agree that generally speaking there aren't enough tradeoffs built into class design and I agree that downed state is a problem. I don't have any issue with resistance and I play condi exclusively but I can see why you might have more of an issue with it on scourge than i do on rev. I don't have any issue with the amount of condi cleanses or with the amount of cc in the game currently.

    .. Try playing condi engi, condi revenant, condi ranger, or hell, condi anything that isn't scourge in any medium-large fight. You can't make any damage stick because the second you land your skills, it's instantly gone thanks to a single support player in the other blob. At least when you're playing power, you can throw those 10k ranged bombs into the blob and expect them to hit. On top of that, you generally have to get closer to land condi damage than power. More risk, less reward. The only exception here is scourge because they throw huge aoes at range and they stick around to pulse.

  • @steki.1478 said:
    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    My view on all games is that the more interaction there is, the better the the game is. Stunlock is per definition uninteractive.
    Note, not everyone is playing in a 30+ zerg, nor should everyone, I set the premises quite clearly for my viewpoint, it is from someone running in a group of 2-5 or solo. Zerging is generally so simple that how playing in one works can be guessed (this means there are no 10+FBs around to perma stab you, which is an issue on it's own)
    If you get pulled into 30+ people by yourself you die, it doesn't matter if they stun you, they could auto attack you to death quickly cause theyre 30 on 1, irrelevant scenario for stunlocking.
    When fighting outnumbered you will often get stunlocked, sometimes for 5+ seconds, this means that you basically sit there, waiting for 5+ seconds in an "action combat" game. That is very poor gameplay, I can usually avoid it to a certain degree, yet it is not always avoidable, this is the only MMO I've played where stunlocking w/o diminishing returns is a thing. Dying to damage is one thing, because at least you can respond to it and try to interact with it, if you get caught in a kind of stunlock, that's generally defined by that you can't respond, that's the whole idea.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    Important to note, me saying these mechanics are bad =/= I can't deal with them or don't know the supposed counters to them, it is me saying that there are situations where you can't them or that they lead to bad gameplay. Beyond this idk what the point of this statement is beyond trying to say balance doesn't really matter just play whatever is there now and don't whine, in which case this might not be the thread for you.

    @Israel.7056 said:
    I don't think the game is really in that bad of a place balance wise I just think it's gotten boring because nothing much has changed in six years and there's not really much to work towards in game for anyone who has been playing a long time.

    I do agree that generally speaking there aren't enough tradeoffs built into class design and I agree that downed state is a problem. I don't have any issue with resistance and I play condi exclusively but I can see why you might have more of an issue with it on scourge than i do on rev. I don't have any issue with the amount of condi cleanses or with the amount of cc in the game currently.

    Meta is far worse than it 8 months ago. 8 months ago I had grindy long fights that could go either way quite often (ie how I played mattered), now not so much.

    Ye more tradeoffs would make it more interesting. Resistance is only really an issue when its pulsed in an AoE on a low cooldown from several people at once (such as when fighting 2-3 firebrands), 100% blanket immunity to a dmg type is poor design either way, making it more available but more like protection would be far better design. Group cleanse in a similar vein, it is per definition not an issue when you're not fighting 2-3 of the clearing classes, but once you do, you're basically doing 0 dmg, whilst you on power would be doing more or less the same. Condi Rev which I also play quite often is one of the builds with the least issues with resistances, but what if you aren't playing a class with an amazing boonstrip or if the enemy has multiple pulsing resistance fields? The stunlock in this game has been bugging me for several years tbh, one of the things that made me reconsider the game a few times, it vastly promotes outnumbering the enemy.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    I don't think the game is really in that bad of a place balance wise I just think it's gotten boring because nothing much has changed in six years and there's not really much to work towards in game for anyone who has been playing a long time.

    I do agree that generally speaking there aren't enough tradeoffs built into class design and I agree that downed state is a problem. I don't have any issue with resistance and I play condi exclusively but I can see why you might have more of an issue with it on scourge than i do on rev. I don't have any issue with the amount of condi cleanses or with the amount of cc in the game currently.

    .. Try playing condi engi, condi revenant, condi ranger, or hell, condi anything that isn't scourge in any medium-large fight. You can't make any damage stick because the second you land your skills, it's instantly gone thanks to a single support player in the other blob. At least when you're playing power, you can throw those 10k ranged bombs into the blob and expect them to hit. On top of that, you generally have to get closer to land condi damage than power. More risk, less reward. The only exception here is scourge because they throw huge aoes at range and they stick around to pulse.

    I do play condi rev.

  • Trajan.4953Trajan.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    Good post! Well thought out. I agree on most points particularly about CC. Pretty out-of-control atm. Happened in WoW around Cataclysm and the pvp scene all but died out until Blizzard fixed it.

  • WvW problem #1: The devs have it as their lowest priority.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The cc thing is also less of an issue on rev because it has a lot of stun breaks. I can see why it would be more of an issue for other classes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    I agree I think it's pretty easy to build a comp that's tough to completely grey bar without a lot of spellbreakers.

  • BlueMelody.6398BlueMelody.6398 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    I'll disagree with this. I get stunlocked and killed plenty, though I only run with about 20 at most generally, and the stabs are not that available. You get yanked out from the group and cc-bombed, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself. Hit all the stunbreaks you want, there's lots of cc waiting to hit you instantly.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlueMelody.6398 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    I'll disagree with this. I get stunlocked and killed plenty, though I only run with about 20 at most generally, and the stabs are not that available. You get yanked out from the group and cc-bombed, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself. Hit all the stunbreaks you want, there's lots of cc waiting to hit you instantly.

    Class and build? Unless it's necro, it's quite trivial to escape CC fields/spam on any class.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Unknown.3976Unknown.3976 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @BlueMelody.6398 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    I'll disagree with this. I get stunlocked and killed plenty, though I only run with about 20 at most generally, and the stabs are not that available. You get yanked out from the group and cc-bombed, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself. Hit all the stunbreaks you want, there's lots of cc waiting to hit you instantly.

    Class and build? Unless it's necro, it's quite trivial to escape CC fields/spam on any class.

    Trivial to classes with access to blocks, stealth and invulnerability.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlueMelody.6398 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    I'd just disagree on stun locking. If you have more than 1 stack of stability you literally cant be stun locked at all. Considering that you don't have stability or that stability got stripped down, it can only mean one thing : you're not positioned properly, and that's not something that game needs to fix, it's on your (group's) end. If you get pulled out of zerg, you deserve to die if you dont react fast. If you get caught in winds of disenchantment, you deserve to get bombed/boon stripped/stun locked if you/your firebrand/chrono don't react fast. No amount of CC can lock you down if you're staying near commander on top of other 30+ people, stacked with 10+ FB's/chronos for boons and stab.

    It's basic combat knowledge, you kill before you get killed and you use everything you can to get advantage. If you get caught, you blame your reflexes or your supports, not the game.

    I'll disagree with this. I get stunlocked and killed plenty, though I only run with about 20 at most generally, and the stabs are not that available. You get yanked out from the group and cc-bombed, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself. Hit all the stunbreaks you want, there's lots of cc waiting to hit you instantly.

    So I'm guessing necro or guard.

  • @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    Telegraphed skills are well and good while you still have evades, and not all stuns are heavily telegraphed either, the problem with them is also that once you do get stunned, you can't evade the next one, or the one after that etc, CC in itself is not too strong or even that poorly designed. "Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth" Make that most good stunbreaks provide stability, evade or stealth, which shows the problem with the CC system perfectly imo, if a stunbreak is just a stunbreak, it might aswell not be there when fighting multiple enemies. There's not passive procs for each class. Necromancer, Revenant and Mesmer just off the top of my head dont have proc that stunbreaks them.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    What's up with making statements that don't even have a meaning at all (your first statement)?
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is. Can you honestly think of any way in which the combat system would be worse if CC had diminishing returns?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026
    2.4 The exponential power growth of multiple players due to supportive non-supports
    A lot of optimal single target "buffs" or "defensives" have an equally strong AoE part, for example, "Healing Turret", "Sand Cascade", "Leap of Resolve" just to name a few skills from various classes are all abilities you would use while playing their respective class solo, that makes them very difficult to tune correctly as they must be strong enough to use without any allies, but while doing 5x as much as "usual" they become overpowered. AoE healing and support builds are not at all in themselves a problem, I personally find that they are part of what makes WvW interesting, what is a problem is when every "offensive" build runs with several supportive skills by "accident", ie skills they would be using even if they only affected the caster.
    My Solution: The lines between support builds and non-support builds should be clearer, for example a nerf targeted at "Healing Turret" might include removing the personal heal on it (reducing it's self healing by 50%) or making the second part of the healing self-exclusive, now I am not saying "Healing Turret" in particular does or doesn't needs nerfing, it is just a good example of that kind of skill.
    Main Offender(s): Scourge, Firebrand, Guardian, Herald, Renegade, Scrapper

    This whole point revolves around using the healing turret as an example, which is a core engie skill (both skill and all associated traits) and probably becomes the strongest on the holo due to its blasts.

    Yet the scrapper spec is singled out as the main offender.

    Whats the reasoning behind that? Just wondering.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    good thread.

    imo,

    some servers are stacked and need forced destacking regularly. and we need some form of tournament where guilds can shine, even just the small ones.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    "I main Necro"

    And there goes your entire Post up in flames.

    As a Tipp: NEVER mention what class you play/main or you loose your credibility.

    At this point its looks more like a hidden "Necro is the worst class , nerf everthing else below the ground" thread.

    Dont get me wrong.
    All your points are correct.

    But there are alot of people that will stop reading after the words "I main Necro".

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026
    2.4 The exponential power growth of multiple players due to supportive non-supports
    A lot of optimal single target "buffs" or "defensives" have an equally strong AoE part, for example, "Healing Turret", "Sand Cascade", "Leap of Resolve" just to name a few skills from various classes are all abilities you would use while playing their respective class solo, that makes them very difficult to tune correctly as they must be strong enough to use without any allies, but while doing 5x as much as "usual" they become overpowered. AoE healing and support builds are not at all in themselves a problem, I personally find that they are part of what makes WvW interesting, what is a problem is when every "offensive" build runs with several supportive skills by "accident", ie skills they would be using even if they only affected the caster.
    My Solution: The lines between support builds and non-support builds should be clearer, for example a nerf targeted at "Healing Turret" might include removing the personal heal on it (reducing it's self healing by 50%) or making the second part of the healing self-exclusive, now I am not saying "Healing Turret" in particular does or doesn't needs nerfing, it is just a good example of that kind of skill.
    Main Offender(s): Scourge, Firebrand, Guardian, Herald, Renegade, Scrapper

    This whole point revolves around using the healing turret as an example, which is a core engie skill (both skill and all associated traits) and probably becomes the strongest on the holo due to its blasts.

    Yet the scrapper spec is singled out as the main offender.

    Whats the reasoning behind that? Just wondering.

    I could just aswell have used "Virute of Resolve" or "Sand Cascade" as the skill I described in depth, I didn't because healing turret was imo a better example, I have no personal animus against engineers, more or less every class has 1 or more of these skills. In hindsight I am not really sure why I wrote scrapper and not engineer, but tbh I am not sure if I should even have listed engineer as a main offender, I mainly did cause healing turret was a very clear example of that kind of skill and as such was freshly in my mind when I wrote the list. The point of the subsection remains no matter if one of the example classes are bad, they are also mainly there to illustrate a point.

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    "I main Necro"

    And there goes your entire Post up in flames.

    As a Tipp: NEVER mention what class you play/main or you loose your credibility.

    At this point its looks more like a hidden "Necro is the worst class , nerf everthing else below the ground" thread.

    Dont get me wrong.
    All your points are correct.

    But there are alot of people that will stop reading after the words "I main Necro".

    I don't actually main necro, I used to but I see your point, however I just assumed people could easily figure that out if they really cared by looking at previous posts I have made so there's not really much point hiding it. I do even list necromancer (scourge mainly) as a main offender for multiple of these problems, just not any of the ones in section 1 (which should come as no surprise to anyone who reads the headlines and it'd be hard to fit any necro spec into either of those points), scourge is listed as a main offender for most if not all of the zerging points I make.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    Telegraphed skills are well and good while you still have evades, and not all stuns are heavily telegraphed either, the problem with them is also that once you do get stunned, you can't evade the next one, or the one after that etc, CC in itself is not too strong or even that poorly designed. "Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth" Make that most good stunbreaks provide stability, evade or stealth, which shows the problem with the CC system perfectly imo, if a stunbreak is just a stunbreak, it might aswell not be there when fighting multiple enemies. There's not passive procs for each class. Necromancer, Revenant and Mesmer just off the top of my head dont have proc that stunbreaks them.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    What's up with making statements that don't even have a meaning at all (your first statement)?
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is. Can you honestly think of any way in which the combat system would be worse if CC had diminishing returns?

    When you're under focus fire on top of stun lock, you'll die in 3 seconds whether the CC lasts 3 seconds or 10 seconds. If less amount of players attack you it means that there's less CC thrown at you, which is easier to break and escape, but if there's more than 3-4 people on you, that means you're practically dead, stunned or not.

    Now let's assume you play some tanky build like spellbreaker or support tempest/firebrand/scrapper. You get stunned for 5 seconds and you have no breaks available, but you manage to survive due to instant heal/block/cleanse or damage mitigation skills/passive procs (elixir s, defy/endure pain and similar). With DR on CC you'll be basically invincible since enemy wasted most of their burst while you were CC-ed, but you still survived, meaning that your group will wreck their since they dont have skills to fire back at you or you'll just keep your party at full hp since they have no ways to kill you anymore.

    You have to have both extremes on mind: class with virtually no stun breaks/blocks/invulns/mobility whose main counter is stun locking and kiting (also knows as necro) as well as tanky builds with plenty of damage mitigation tools whose counter is waiting for them to waste all defense (warr for example)/cast some risky skill (like overload) so you can stun lock them and kill them, because you cant kill/counter them otherwise (running away isn't counter). DR on CC wont improve anything, it will just give tankier builds another advantage that they certainly do not need.

    Do all those games you mentioned with DR have stability, blocks, invulns, evades, 2 dodge rolls, stun breaks (blinks and stealth) as well as passive procs including any of those? I honestly doubt it.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    Lol nerf movement skills are you annecro main? No they need to nerf aoes and make them skill shots (kind of like druids staff 4) and insta rez necros and gaurds. Positioning is a joke in team fights now. When they do that they won't have an excuse to not nerf passives. They literally said the reason they don't nerf passives a d imvulns and such is because there's too many aoes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Lol nerf movement skills are you annecro main? No they need to nerf aoes and make them skill shots (kind of like druids staff 4) and insta rez necros and gaurds. Positioning is a joke in team fights now. When they do that they won't have an excuse to not nerf passives. They literally said the reason they don't nerf passives a d imvulns and such is because there's too many aoes.

    Cant make all aoes skill shots because those are usually reflectable. Skillshots also have either 1 impact (fire/air staff on weaver; explodes on first impact) or they hit a lot more than 5 people (that druid skill pulses 7 times and hits 3 targets per pulse). Pulsing aoes like necro wells cant be reworked into skill shots because that would either make them useless or completely broken. Without aoes you dont have zone pressure and without zone pressure you have melee blobs with permanent boons, which is everything but skilled gameplay.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Lol nerf movement skills are you annecro main? No they need to nerf aoes and make them skill shots (kind of like druids staff 4) and insta rez necros and gaurds. Positioning is a joke in team fights now. When they do that they won't have an excuse to not nerf passives. They literally said the reason they don't nerf passives a d imvulns and such is because there's too many aoes.

    Cant make all aoes skill shots because those are usually reflectable. Skillshots also have either 1 impact (fire/air staff on weaver; explodes on first impact) or they hit a lot more than 5 people (that druid skill pulses 7 times and hits 3 targets per pulse). Pulsing aoes like necro wells cant be reworked into skill shots because that would either make them useless or completely broken. Without aoes you dont have zone pressure and without zone pressure you have melee blobs with permanent boons, which is everything but skilled gameplay.

    That is false druid staff 4 and rev hammer 3 can not be reflected and I didn't say for them to be weak, having them be lines instead of giant kitten circles would make positioning useful again ya in huge numbers you would still have bloat but my God you've could actually use proper positioning. The boon melee meta was actually alot more skilled than blob here nuke run away. The pulsing aoes are another issue too not only do they add visual clutter out the wazzzoo they have no skill click and boom to win button. I'm way more of a fan of 1/2 hit effects with big tells, its what makes all other good PvP games great.

  • edited August 29, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    Telegraphed skills are well and good while you still have evades, and not all stuns are heavily telegraphed either, the problem with them is also that once you do get stunned, you can't evade the next one, or the one after that etc, CC in itself is not too strong or even that poorly designed. "Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth" Make that most good stunbreaks provide stability, evade or stealth, which shows the problem with the CC system perfectly imo, if a stunbreak is just a stunbreak, it might aswell not be there when fighting multiple enemies. There's not passive procs for each class. Necromancer, Revenant and Mesmer just off the top of my head dont have proc that stunbreaks them.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    What's up with making statements that don't even have a meaning at all (your first statement)?
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is. Can you honestly think of any way in which the combat system would be worse if CC had diminishing returns?

    When you're under focus fire on top of stun lock, you'll die in 3 seconds whether the CC lasts 3 seconds or 10 seconds. If less amount of players attack you it means that there's less CC thrown at you, which is easier to break and escape, but if there's more than 3-4 people on you, that means you're practically dead, stunned or not.

    There are very few hard CC effects that last 3 seconds (a few tho), they're not very common for a reason, I think 3 sec is far too long for any skill, but imo it wouldn't be a big problem if you couldn't instantly get hit by more of them.

    Now let's assume you play some tanky build like spellbreaker or support tempest/firebrand/scrapper. You get stunned for 5 seconds and you have no breaks available, but you manage to survive due to instant heal/block/cleanse or damage mitigation skills/passive procs (elixir s, defy/endure pain and similar). With DR on CC you'll be basically invincible since enemy wasted most of their burst while you were CC-ed, but you still survived, meaning that your group will wreck their since they don't have skills to fire back at you or you'll just keep your party at full hp since they have no ways to kill you anymore.

    You will be invincible because you have a few seconds of CC doing nothing/a lot less on you? But in the previous example you said if you get focused fired you die with or w/o the CC spam, which one is it? If they waste all their burst on a warrior with Defy Pain or worse an engineer in elixir S, they deserve to die tbh.

    You have to have both extremes on mind: class with virtually no stun breaks/blocks/invulns/mobility whose main counter is stun locking and kiting (also knows as necro) as well as tanky builds with plenty of damage mitigation tools whose counter is waiting for them to waste all defense (warr for example)/cast some risky skill (like overload) so you can stun lock them and kill them, because you cant kill/counter them otherwise (running away isn't counter). DR on CC wont improve anything, it will just give tankier builds another advantage that they certainly do not need.

    Chain-CC is a design issue, not a class issue imo. For the record most "tanky" (hard term to really define imo) builds are builds with a lot of stab/stunbreaks/active defenses that prevent or mitigate stunlocking, go figure.

    Do all those games you mentioned with DR have stability, blocks, invulns, evades, 2 dodge rolls, stun breaks (blinks and stealth) as well as passive procs including any of those? I honestly doubt it.

    I'd say it varies how many and how good tools those games have from game to game, I don't really wanna get into discussing the specific mechanics of other games on the gw2 forum, quickly becomes very off-topic.

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Lol nerf movement skills are you annecro main? No they need to nerf aoes and make them skill shots (kind of like druids staff 4) and insta rez necros and gaurds. Positioning is a joke in team fights now. When they do that they won't have an excuse to not nerf passives. They literally said the reason they don't nerf passives a d imvulns and such is because there's too many aoes.

    Cant make all aoes skill shots because those are usually reflectable. Skillshots also have either 1 impact (fire/air staff on weaver; explodes on first impact) or they hit a lot more than 5 people (that druid skill pulses 7 times and hits 3 targets per pulse). Pulsing aoes like necro wells cant be reworked into skill shots because that would either make them useless or completely broken. Without aoes you dont have zone pressure and without zone pressure you have melee blobs with permanent boons, which is everything but skilled gameplay.

    I get to agree with you here.

    @Eleazar.9478 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Lol nerf movement skills are you annecro main? No they need to nerf aoes and make them skill shots (kind of like druids staff 4) and insta rez necros and gaurds. Positioning is a joke in team fights now. When they do that they won't have an excuse to not nerf passives. They literally said the reason they don't nerf passives a d imvulns and such is because there's too many aoes.

    Cant make all aoes skill shots because those are usually reflectable. Skillshots also have either 1 impact (fire/air staff on weaver; explodes on first impact) or they hit a lot more than 5 people (that druid skill pulses 7 times and hits 3 targets per pulse). Pulsing aoes like necro wells cant be reworked into skill shots because that would either make them useless or completely broken. Without aoes you dont have zone pressure and without zone pressure you have melee blobs with permanent boons, which is everything but skilled gameplay.

    That is false druid staff 4 and rev hammer 3 can not be reflected and I didn't say for them to be weak, haveing them be lines instead of giant kitten circles would make positioning useful again ya in huge numbers you would still have bloat but my God you've ould actually use prooer positioning. The boon melee meta was actually alot more skilled than blob here nuke run away. The pulsing aoes are another issue too not only do they add visual clutter out the wazzzoo they have no skill click and boom to win button. I'm way more of a fan of 1/2 hit effects with big tells, its what makes all other good PvP games great.

    How does Zone control skills make positioning less important? Excessive amounts of movement skills on the other hand do make it so that bad positioning isn't punished in the slightest however. Visual clutter is an issue, but a harder one to solve. Having a better way to differentiate between the different ground circles would imo be very good (animation culling happens, some visual effects look extremely similar etc)

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you're getting hard ccd often that's a comp issue imo. Need more revs and guards. Now if you get ccd out in a bubble that's totally understandable and it happens to us all but that's also the point of spellbreakers.

  • @Israel.7056 said:
    If you're getting hard ccd often that's a comp issue imo. Need more revs and guards. Now if you get ccd out in a bubble that's totally understandable and it happens to us all but that's also the point of spellbreakers.

    Already responded this

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is.

    But I will explain my point further. I think that CC-lock is poor design as it is the opposite of interaction which is the whole point of games. I do not have major issues dealing with it, if anything I am more often on the side that "uses" it. If me personally have issues dealing or not dealing with CC-locking isn't really relevant though for whether it's a good or bad mechanic (or rather lack thereof).

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    Telegraphed skills are well and good while you still have evades, and not all stuns are heavily telegraphed either, the problem with them is also that once you do get stunned, you can't evade the next one, or the one after that etc, CC in itself is not too strong or even that poorly designed. "Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth" Make that most good stunbreaks provide stability, evade or stealth, which shows the problem with the CC system perfectly imo, if a stunbreak is just a stunbreak, it might aswell not be there when fighting multiple enemies. There's not passive procs for each class. Necromancer, Revenant and Mesmer just off the top of my head dont have proc that stunbreaks them.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    What's up with making statements that don't even have a meaning at all (your first statement)?
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is. Can you honestly think of any way in which the combat system would be worse if CC had diminishing returns?

    When you're under focus fire on top of stun lock, you'll die in 3 seconds whether the CC lasts 3 seconds or 10 seconds. If less amount of players attack you it means that there's less CC thrown at you, which is easier to break and escape, but if there's more than 3-4 people on you, that means you're practically dead, stunned or not.

    There are very few hard CC effects that last 3 seconds (a few tho), they're not very common for a reason, I think 3 sec is far too long for any skill, but imo it wouldn't be a big problem if you couldn't instantly get hit by more of them.

    It doesnt have to be 3 seconds from one skill. Assuming you're playing 2v3 and all 3 focus their burst and CC on you, you'll most likely die due to excessive damage thrown in your face, not because you got stun locked for long time. Mesmer for example uses its stun right before GS skills hit, to ensure that target doesn't dodge right after taking first instance of damage (since gs skills hit multiple times). Assuming you're playing semi-glass cannon build, you'll be dead either way.

    Now let's assume you play some tanky build like spellbreaker or support tempest/firebrand/scrapper. You get stunned for 5 seconds and you have no breaks available, but you manage to survive due to instant heal/block/cleanse or damage mitigation skills/passive procs (elixir s, defy/endure pain and similar). With DR on CC you'll be basically invincible since enemy wasted most of their burst while you were CC-ed, but you still survived, meaning that your group will wreck their since they don't have skills to fire back at you or you'll just keep your party at full hp since they have no ways to kill you anymore.

    You will be invincible because you have a few seconds of CC doing nothing/a lot less on you? But in the previous example you said if you get focused fired you die with or w/o the CC spam, which one is it? If they waste all their burst on a warrior with Defy Pain or worse an engineer in elixir S, they deserve to die tbh.

    In previous example you're not playing a tank who can survive under high pressure (passive invuln/block/protection/frost aura procs, active instant skills with similar effects), you're playing basically any other build which is like 80% of roaming builds. If they waste burst on blocks/invulns they do deserve to die, just like you deserve to die if you let them stun you for days without escaping on time. It works both ways really.

    You have to have both extremes on mind: class with virtually no stun breaks/blocks/invulns/mobility whose main counter is stun locking and kiting (also knows as necro) as well as tanky builds with plenty of damage mitigation tools whose counter is waiting for them to waste all defense (warr for example)/cast some risky skill (like overload) so you can stun lock them and kill them, because you cant kill/counter them otherwise (running away isn't counter). DR on CC wont improve anything, it will just give tankier builds another advantage that they certainly do not need.

    Chain-CC is a design issue, not a class issue imo. For the record most "tanky" (hard term to really define imo) builds are builds with a lot of stab/stunbreaks/active defenses that prevent or mitigate stunlocking, go figure.

    Chain CC isn't an issue as long as single person isn't able to do it - one could argue that mesmer can have multiple CC skills from both weapons and utility/elite skills, but (un)luckily, they can kill you much faster without all that CC. It's all about number of people: you take more damage/cc when more people are attacking you, you take less damage when there's more people stacked (most skills have 5 target limit, so not everyone takes damage all the time) etc. And if 5 people are in your face, chaining their CC then they are either doing good job focusing you or you're doing bad job avoiding that, which all comes down to personal build/skill level or group composition, not game issue. It would be an issue if everyone had lots of unblockable cc/damage, tools to remove stability or something similar, but that's very limited.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you're getting hard ccd often that's a comp issue imo. Need more revs and guards. Now if you get ccd out in a bubble that's totally understandable and it happens to us all but that's also the point of spellbreakers.

    Already responded this

    Alright well I think that's kinda the end of that aspect of the discussion tbh.

    Now the question of whether or not it should be possible to cc someone to death I say yes as long as there's some sort of potential counterplay in the game like stun breaks and stab. But if you're maining necro you're resigning yourself to being stunned to death a lot because that's one of the main weaknesses of necros. It doesn't happen often on rev because rev has so many stun breaks but rev is also in a lot of trouble if it gets condi bombed because it doesn't have many personal cleanses.

    This is what happens when you main something: all your opinions of the gameplay are tinted with the trials and tribulations of whatever class you happen to be maining. So for me as a Rev I hate mesmers and thieves and soulbeasts with a passion because they're super obnoxious to fight on rev.

    I'm with you on the idea that everything does too much thing but this cc lock thing reads like your necro main bias to me.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The main-problems of WvW - at least in my opinion - are that the maps are too large to enforce PvP (and traversing them is a huge pain in the kitten to be honest), the siege-mechanics suck and don't really enforce strategic behaviour like splitting into flanks or stuff like that, it's a gamble anyway since it depends on your server if you have a fun/active WvW-scene and yeah, balance is also a thing. Stuff like that...

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Even in small scale, there's not many classes that could stun lock or they have quite telegraphed animations. Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth, which can prevent stun locking and there's even passive procs for those on every class.

    Telegraphed skills are well and good while you still have evades, and not all stuns are heavily telegraphed either, the problem with them is also that once you do get stunned, you can't evade the next one, or the one after that etc, CC in itself is not too strong or even that poorly designed. "Most stun breaks also provide either stability, evade or stealth" Make that most good stunbreaks provide stability, evade or stealth, which shows the problem with the CC system perfectly imo, if a stunbreak is just a stunbreak, it might aswell not be there when fighting multiple enemies. There's not passive procs for each class. Necromancer, Revenant and Mesmer just off the top of my head dont have proc that stunbreaks them.

    When fighting outnumbered you either win with skills or lose to numbers, there's not much philosophy. Playing builds with no stun breaks or not having a designated support in that situation doesnt make CC skills any stronger, it just means that your composition/build lacks basic pvp tools, which are mobility, damage mitigation, stun breaks and cleanses.

    What's up with making statements that don't even have a meaning at all (your first statement)?
    Anyway, I do not play w/o a stunbreak or as much stab as my class allows, I do play with good support players, I do not have major issues dealing with stunlock more frequently than could be expected in each given situation. Yet when it does happen, it shows just how flawed the system is. Can you honestly think of any way in which the combat system would be worse if CC had diminishing returns?

    When you're under focus fire on top of stun lock, you'll die in 3 seconds whether the CC lasts 3 seconds or 10 seconds. If less amount of players attack you it means that there's less CC thrown at you, which is easier to break and escape, but if there's more than 3-4 people on you, that means you're practically dead, stunned or not.

    There are very few hard CC effects that last 3 seconds (a few tho), they're not very common for a reason, I think 3 sec is far too long for any skill, but imo it wouldn't be a big problem if you couldn't instantly get hit by more of them.

    It doesnt have to be 3 seconds from one skill. Assuming you're playing 2v3 and all 3 focus their burst and CC on you, you'll most likely die due to excessive damage thrown in your face, not because you got stun locked for long time. Mesmer for example uses its stun right before GS skills hit, to ensure that target doesn't dodge right after taking first instance of damage (since gs skills hit multiple times). Assuming you're playing semi-glass cannon build, you'll be dead either way.

    Dying during 1 stun due to excessive burst (which is a problem) or due to being hit by multiple people at once (which is not a problem) is one thing. Getting hit repeatedly by several stuns and basically just waiting (either for your stunbreak (with stability or an evade added) of choice or for you to die) is poor gameplay.

    Now let's assume you play some tanky build like spellbreaker or support tempest/firebrand/scrapper. You get stunned for 5 seconds and you have no breaks available, but you manage to survive due to instant heal/block/cleanse or damage mitigation skills/passive procs (elixir s, defy/endure pain and similar). With DR on CC you'll be basically invincible since enemy wasted most of their burst while you were CC-ed, but you still survived, meaning that your group will wreck their since they don't have skills to fire back at you or you'll just keep your party at full hp since they have no ways to kill you anymore.

    You will be invincible because you have a few seconds of CC doing nothing/a lot less on you? But in the previous example you said if you get focused fired you die with or w/o the CC spam, which one is it? If they waste all their burst on a warrior with Defy Pain or worse an engineer in elixir S, they deserve to die tbh.

    In previous example you're not playing a tank who can survive under high pressure (passive invuln/block/protection/frost aura procs, active instant skills with similar effects), you're playing basically any other build which is like 80% of roaming builds. If they waste burst on blocks/invulns they do deserve to die, just like you deserve to die if you let them stun you for days without escaping on time. It works both ways really.

    Except in scenario one, they have a tell that says "The target can't take dmg (or similar effect)", they press buttons to do things despite this, ie active bad decision making.
    In the case where you're chain CC-ed you can't react, because that's the whole point of CC-locking someone, ie a lack of ability to make decisions.

    Note I am not saying diminishing returns should last particularly long either, so getting CC-ed once wouldn't make you immune for the remainder of the fight, my idea for numbers would be in the region of you can in total be CC-ed 2 sec/6 seconds of fighting, so at most you can get CC-ed 1/3rd of the time and in no longer than 2 sec increments, this seems reasonable for a game supposed to be rather "fast paced".

    You have to have both extremes on mind: class with virtually no stun breaks/blocks/invulns/mobility whose main counter is stun locking and kiting (also knows as necro) as well as tanky builds with plenty of damage mitigation tools whose counter is waiting for them to waste all defense (warr for example)/cast some risky skill (like overload) so you can stun lock them and kill them, because you cant kill/counter them otherwise (running away isn't counter). DR on CC wont improve anything, it will just give tankier builds another advantage that they certainly do not need.

    Chain-CC is a design issue, not a class issue imo. For the record most "tanky" (hard term to really define imo) builds are builds with a lot of stab/stunbreaks/active defenses that prevent or mitigate stunlocking, go figure.

    Chain CC isn't an issue as long as single person isn't able to do it - one could argue that mesmer can have multiple CC skills from both weapons and utility/elite skills, but (un)luckily, they can kill you much faster without all that CC. It's all about number of people: you take more damage/cc when more people are attacking you, you take less damage when there's more people stacked (most skills have 5 target limit, so not everyone takes damage all the time) etc. And if 5 people are in your face, chaining their CC then they are either doing good job focusing you or you're doing bad job avoiding that, which all comes down to personal build/skill level or group composition, not game issue. It would be an issue if everyone had lots of unblockable cc/damage, tools to remove stability or something similar, but that's very limited.

    Scenario 1, they are coordinating their CC is ofc an option, but if they were then they don't need stunlocking to kill 1 player, then they can/should be able to kill them w/o given proper focus fire.

    Scenario 2, that you only get chain-CCed cause you played bad. This is sometimes the case (very rarely but it does happen to me too). But in those scenarios even just the damage of being caught out in the open "should" be enough to kill a single player during 1 CC-effect (otherwise the people who get to be multiple people "free attacking" one target are playing even worse).

    Scenario 3, there are simply too many skills with a CC-effect just "slapped on them" for a game w/o diminishing returns to handle this. Lowering this amount is an option, but a rather shortsighted one as that number will just go up again next time they rework X class or release a new expac.

    Scenario 1 & 2 are scenarios where the CC-lock shouldn't be needed to secure a kill and usually doesn't really matter
    Scenario 3 is the more common scenario with getting CC-locked and the one I'd aim to curb.

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you're getting hard ccd often that's a comp issue imo. Need more revs and guards. Now if you get ccd out in a bubble that's totally understandable and it happens to us all but that's also the point of spellbreakers.

    Already responded this

    Alright well I think that's kinda the end of that aspect of the discussion tbh.

    Now the question of whether or not it should be possible to cc someone to death I say yes as long as there's some sort of potential counterplay in the game like stun breaks and stab. But if you're maining necro you're resigning yourself to being stunned to death a lot because that's one of the main weaknesses of necros. It doesn't happen often on rev because rev has so many stun breaks but rev is also in a lot of trouble if it gets condi bombed because it doesn't have many personal cleanses.

    This is what happens when you main something: all your opinions of the gameplay are tinted with the trials and tribulations of whatever class you happen to be maining. So for me as a Rev I hate mesmers and thieves and soulbeasts with a passion because they're super obnoxious to fight on rev.

    I'm with you on the idea that everything does too much thing but this cc lock thing reads like your necro main bias to me.

    I do not main necro, I used to however, but I have played most classes to various degrees in WvW (if nothing else to learn how to counter them)

    CC-ing someone to land key skills isn't a problem, getting hit by repeated "random" cc effects repeatedly (often thro 1 or 2 stacks of stabs) is a problem. On my condi rev (which is as close to a main as I have right now) for example, I do have access to stab, I do not get CC-locked more frequently than can reasonably be expected with the tools given (ie every now and then but not very often), whether I get CC-locked or not doesn't change how good/bad design it is. Nor does really what class has the biggest issues with it, the game mechanic is bad, even if it wasn't a strong strategy (and no class struggled against it) I'd say it was poor design, as how good/bad design something is, is not necessarily related to it's power level.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    CC-ing someone to land key skills isn't a problem, getting hit by repeated "random" cc effects repeatedly (often thro 1 or 2 stacks of stabs) is a problem. On my condi rev (which is as close to a main as I have right now) for example, I do have access to stab, I do not get CC-locked more frequently than can reasonably be expected with the tools given (ie every now and then but not very often), whether I get CC-locked or not doesn't change how good/bad design it is. Nor does really what class has the biggest issues with it, the game mechanic is bad, even if it wasn't a strong strategy (and no class struggled against it) I'd say it was poor design, as how good/bad design something is, is not necessarily related to it's power level.

    Ok why is getting hit by repeated "random" cc effects a problem if you can counter it?

    To me the question here is: is there counterplay? It seems that there is counterplay. So what is the issue?

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    CC-ing someone to land key skills isn't a problem, getting hit by repeated "random" cc effects repeatedly (often thro 1 or 2 stacks of stabs) is a problem. On my condi rev (which is as close to a main as I have right now) for example, I do have access to stab, I do not get CC-locked more frequently than can reasonably be expected with the tools given (ie every now and then but not very often), whether I get CC-locked or not doesn't change how good/bad design it is. Nor does really what class has the biggest issues with it, the game mechanic is bad, even if it wasn't a strong strategy (and no class struggled against it) I'd say it was poor design, as how good/bad design something is, is not necessarily related to it's power level.

    Ok why is getting hit by repeated "random" cc effects a problem if you can counter it?

    To me the question here is: is there counterplay? It seems that there is counterplay. So what is the issue?

    Can you always counter it?
    Most of the time, but not always (I am under no illusion that I counter it perfectly every time, but I'd conservatively say 8-9/10 times I actually die to stunlocking it's due to there simply not being enough breaks/sources of stability to deal with the sheer numbers of "random" CC skills), most of the time but not always (simply due to the sheer number of CC effects that there are).

    One could ofc proliferate the amount of stunbreaks and stability in the game, but that would lead to strategically CC-ing your opponent being harder while "spamming" CC being the only way to get any amount of "stunnage" on your enemy. This seems less preferable than a situation where CC can be landed realtively reliable, but not in the sheer amounts that constitutes chain-CC.

    What happens when you can't?
    You are stuck in the position of waiting for it to end (either after they somehow run out of CC (unlikely) or you die).

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    Can you always counter it?

    No but nothing can be countered 100 percent of the time. At some point you're supposed to either kill them or run out of buttons. This is good imo. It promotes ultra aggressive gameplay which I'm a fan of but I suppose that's just a matter of personal taste.

    Most of the time, but not always (I am under no illusion that I counter it perfectly every time, but I'd conservatively say 8-9/10 times I actually die to stunlocking it's due to there simply not being enough breaks/sources of stability to deal with the sheer numbers of "random" CC skills), most of the time but not always (simply due to the sheer number of CC effects that there are).

    Well yeah but I think that's how it's supposed to work. There's play/counterplay but if you can't kill them before they overwhelm your defenses you're probably dead. So it's like you can't go too far into playing defensively or else you lose to attrition. Again it's a matter of personal taste but I like it.

    One could ofc proliferate the amount of stunbreaks and stability in the game, but that would lead to strategically CC-ing your opponent being harder while "spamming" CC being the only way to get any amount of "stunnage" on your enemy. This seems less preferable than a situation where CC can be landed realtively reliable, but not in the sheer amounts that constitutes chain-CC.

    I dunno there's already a ton of stunbreaks and stab they're just not evenly spread out among all the classes. Guard has always dominated the stab scene with everything else trailing behind which is why guards have always been the main staple of WvW.

    What happens when you can't?
    You are stuck in the position of waiting for it to end (either after they somehow run out of CC (unlikely) or you die).

    Right but again I think it's supposed to work like that. Everyone has a certain amount of finite play/counterplay options so the outcome of a fight usually comes down to who uses their respective tools more efficiently and effectively before they gas out so to speak.

  • Gav.1425Gav.1425 Member ✭✭

    These are poor suggestions.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    Can you always counter it?

    No but nothing can be countered 100 percent of the time. At some point you're supposed to either kill them or run out of buttons. This is good imo. It promotes ultra aggressive gameplay which I'm a fan of but I suppose that's just a matter of personal taste.

    Stuff lacking proper counterplay is the entire point of the thread. You say ultra aggressive gameplay, I say faceroll keyboard and hope for the best.

    Most of the time, but not always (I am under no illusion that I counter it perfectly every time, but I'd conservatively say 8-9/10 times I actually die to stunlocking it's due to there simply not being enough breaks/sources of stability to deal with the sheer numbers of "random" CC skills), most of the time but not always (simply due to the sheer number of CC effects that there are).

    Well yeah but I think that's how it's supposed to work. There's play/counterplay but if you can't kill them before they overwhelm your defenses you're probably dead. So it's like you can't go too far into playing defensively or else you lose to attrition. Again it's a matter of personal taste but I like it.

    Attrition and ultra aggressive gameplay are on 2 opposite sides of a spectrum. Ultra Aggressive means blowing all CDs all at once usually at the start of the fight, attrition means spacing them out, trying to "trade up" so to speak in every situation.

    One could ofc proliferate the amount of stunbreaks and stability in the game, but that would lead to strategically CC-ing your opponent being harder while "spamming" CC being the only way to get any amount of "stunnage" on your enemy. This seems less preferable than a situation where CC can be landed realtively reliable, but not in the sheer amounts that constitutes chain-CC.

    I dunno there's already a ton of stunbreaks and stab they're just not evenly spread out among all the classes. Guard has always dominated the stab scene with everything else trailing behind which is why guards have always been the main staple of WvW.

    Well that's hardly a reason for why it isn't a problem. If anything that'd be an argument for why stunlocking is bad. If it warps a game to such a degree, then the mechanic must be inherently broken. Meaning to balance they'd either need to more equally distribute stunbreaks/stab across the board (or increase the amount overall), which would homogenize the classes, or they could fix the mechanic that causes the problem.

    What happens when you can't?
    You are stuck in the position of waiting for it to end (either after they somehow run out of CC (unlikely) or you die).

    Right but again I think it's supposed to work like that. Everyone has a certain amount of finite play/counterplay options so the outcome of a fight usually comes down to who uses their respective tools more efficiently and effectively before they gas out so to speak.

    Stunlocking from getting hit by "random CC" spam
    Supposed to work like that =/= Good
    Stunlocking rarely comes down to trying to more efficiently use your CC compared to your opponent's counters to it. It comes down using CC faster than you can stack stab. Granting enough stacks of stability is something a very select subset of classes can do, especially in an AoE (ie support by stab). These classes quickly become the only realistic option. This is meta warping and could either be solved by spreading out even more stab out across the classes (ie the stab vs cc proliferation I talked about), which would mean the only way to actually CC someone is to spam, which means we come full circle.

    @Gav.1425 said:
    These are poor suggestions.

    Thank you for the high value and very elaborate post that truly points to many flaws. Comments like this truly are what a discussion is about, after reading this you managed to not only change my mind about my entire post, but also about my entire outlook on life. I will probably do my best to incorporate this kind of debating in the future in my posts, but I am not sure I can manage to put it to use in quite as eloquently of a way as you did.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    Stuff lacking proper counterplay is the entire point of the thread. You say ultra aggressive gameplay, I say faceroll keyboard and hope for the best.

    Eh I dunno I think it's more about being the first to completely commit and being quick enough to completely overwhelm the opponent's reaction time. No hesitation no fear.

    Attrition and ultra aggressive gameplay are on 2 opposite sides of a spectrum. Ultra Aggressive means blowing all CDs all at once usually at the start of the fight, attrition means spacing them out, trying to "trade up" so to speak in every situation.

    If we're going to speak in terms of spectrums I'd say ultra defensive is on the opposite side of ultra aggressive. Never push, never fully commit always try to have an escape plan, build defensive siege that sort of thing. The attrition I'm talking about is the defensive cds being outpaced by offensive cds. There's play/counterplay but it generally favors offense which is good I think. So I guess another way to say it is that the game leans more toward being proactive rather than reactive play if that makes sense. Again I think this is good.

    Well that's hardly a reason for why it isn't a problem. If anything that'd be an argument for why stunlocking is bad. If it warps a game to such a degree, then the mechanic must be inherently broken. Meaning to balance they'd either need to more equally distribute stunbreaks/stab across the board (or increase the amount overall), which would homogenize the classes, or they could fix the mechanic that causes the problem.

    Warp has a sort of negative connotation. But yes the lack of stab and available stun breaks for most classes combined with the fairly ubiquitous amount of cc in the game has made guard the obvious choice for medium to large scale combat since launch. But this is how it is in every MMO I've ever played. The heavies are always designed to push in and tank damage and ccs better than any of the other classes because that's supposed to be their role. In a roleplaying game not everything is going to be equally good at everything, different classes occupy different roles. So if you want to be able to handle CC pretty well play a heavy. If you want to do an amazing amount of damage play necro but understand that CC is going to be a bigger threat to you. To me this makes perfect sense.

    Stunlocking from getting hit by "random CC" spam
    Supposed to work like that =/= Good
    Stunlocking rarely comes down to trying to more efficiently use your CC compared to your opponent's counters to it. It comes down using CC faster than you can stack stab. Granting enough stacks of stability is something a very select subset of classes can do, especially in an AoE (ie support by stab). These classes quickly become the only realistic option. This is meta warping and could either be solved by spreading out even more stab out across the classes (ie the stab vs cc proliferation I talked about), which would mean the only way to actually CC someone is to spam, which means we come full circle.

    It depends on what you consider to be efficient within the context of a GW2 fight. What I'm talking about when I say efficient could perhaps better be called "more succinctly coordinated." It is an efficient and highly effective strategy to simply try to get everything in the same place at the same time and completely overwhelm the enemy before they even have a chance to react. I personally like this style of play but some people prefer something slower more methodical.

    Ultimately it comes down to personal taste and I don't think you and I are likely to see eye to eye on this particular issue but in general I think you made some good critiques in your OP.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    "I main Necro"

    And there goes your entire Post up in flames.

    As a Tipp: NEVER mention what class you play/main or you loose your credibility.

    At this point its looks more like a hidden "Necro is the worst class , nerf everthing else below the ground" thread.

    Dont get me wrong.
    All your points are correct.

    But there are alot of people that will stop reading after the words "I main Necro".

    To be fair, when the list seems to contain mostly items that are uniquely prominent to your specified main, it does suggest a major bias. What works to invalidate the view point is when it seems to focus mainly on those biases, and other examples are suspiciously token in their weighting. So surprise, surprise when people assume that things a given class struggles with the most are called "game mode wide problems", and not fully acknowledge it from multiple angles, that they would think this is a "nerf the things kills me" thread.

    With a predisposition of those types of complaint threads being long winded, to feign a credible argument, a wall of text does have to put effort into either prefacing or concluding on well compressed TLDR, so a reader gets your idea from the get go, and better follow the specific arguments that in the body.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:
    Stuff lacking proper counterplay is the entire point of the thread. You say ultra aggressive gameplay, I say faceroll keyboard and hope for the best.

    Eh I dunno I think it's more about being the first to completely commit and being quick enough to completely overwhelm the opponent's reaction time. No hesitation no fear.

    Then I think we see differently on the terms aggressive/defensive. Which would lead to some confusion.

    For starters if the only time chain-CC happened was when I didn't react fast enough, or my opponents were very well coordinated, I wouldn't consider it a problem, the problem is that an effective way to cause it is simply to everyone use all their CC as soon as you engage, which is a very simplistic strategy, which can in some situations (not all by any means) have very little counterplay. I also consider that the longer a fight is (within reason) the better it is (general statement not always true), because each player gets more opportunities to play good/bad.

    Attrition and ultra aggressive gameplay are on 2 opposite sides of a spectrum. Ultra Aggressive means blowing all CDs all at once usually at the start of the fight, attrition means spacing them out, trying to "trade up" so to speak in every situation.

    If we're going to speak in terms of spectrums I'd say ultra defensive is on the opposite side of ultra aggressive. Never push, never fully commit always try to have an escape plan, build defensive siege that sort of thing. The attrition I'm talking about is the defensive cds being outpaced by offensive cds. There's play/counterplay but it generally favors offense which is good I think. So I guess another way to say it is that the game leans more toward being proactive rather than reactive play if that makes sense. Again I think this is good.

    I guess it depends on how you define aggressive/defensive.

    Generally when i'd think of an ultra aggressive build I'd think of full zerk burst builds, who try to kill you in one burst and if they fail they run away, while an ultra defensive build would be a minstrel "troll tank" build (ie a tanking build w/o any support elements) with everything in between falling on the spectrum.

    But when it comes to playing I'd say ultra aggressive would be trying to kill your opponent(s) in one burst, while the more defensive you play the more attrition you play (this is speaking in terms of tactics and builds, no a "strategy" like camping towers and building siege etc, but actual incombat fighting).

    Proactive and reactive I wouldn't equate to defensive versus offensive. There are proactive defenses (like Stability, Protection, Blocking, Dodging, etc) and reactive defenses (Healing, Condi clears, etc). Just as there are proactive offensive skills (like most damaging ones...) and reactive offensive skills (like the more proper interrupt skills, boon corrupts/removal, etc). The danger with going too far into the proactive direction is that the game risks becoming linear (ie you have your gameplan, you try to execute it, you don't really care what your opponent does). The danger with going too far in the reactive direction would be that very little would happen. In my opinion the best a mix of both leaning towards reactive.

    Well that's hardly a reason for why it isn't a problem. If anything that'd be an argument for why stunlocking is bad. If it warps a game to such a degree, then the mechanic must be inherently broken. Meaning to balance they'd either need to more equally distribute stunbreaks/stab across the board (or increase the amount overall), which would homogenize the classes, or they could fix the mechanic that causes the problem.

    Warp has a sort of negative connotation. But yes the lack of stab and available stun breaks for most classes combined with the fairly ubiquitous amount of cc in the game has made guard the obvious choice for medium to large scale combat since launch. But this is how it is in every MMO I've ever played. The heavies are always designed to push in and tank damage and ccs better than any of the other classes because that's supposed to be their role. In a roleplaying game not everything is going to be equally good at everything, different classes occupy different roles. So if you want to be able to handle CC pretty well play a heavy. If you want to do an amazing amount of damage play necro but understand that CC is going to be a bigger threat to you. To me this makes perfect sense.

    Thinking in terms of heavys and lights in this game is imo doing oneself a disservice. How "tanky" a class or build is depends more on the build/stats/situation than what kind of armor they wear.

    Stunlocking from getting hit by "random CC" spam
    Supposed to work like that =/= Good
    Stunlocking rarely comes down to trying to more efficiently use your CC compared to your opponent's counters to it. It comes down using CC faster than you can stack stab. Granting enough stacks of stability is something a very select subset of classes can do, especially in an AoE (ie support by stab). These classes quickly become the only realistic option. This is meta warping and could either be solved by spreading out even more stab out across the classes (ie the stab vs cc proliferation I talked about), which would mean the only way to actually CC someone is to spam, which means we come full circle.

    It depends on what you consider to be efficient within the context of a GW2 fight. What I'm talking about when I say efficient could perhaps better be called "more succinctly coordinated." It is an efficient and highly effective strategy to simply try to get everything in the same place at the same time and completely overwhelm the enemy before they even have a chance to react. I personally like this style of play but some people prefer something slower more methodical.

    That is often the most efficient way to to play, but that is in itself a problem imo. Mainly due to the simplicity of the strategy. Proactive play quickly becomes linear play. Linear play is what should never happen in a game.

    Ultimately it comes down to personal taste and I don't think you and I are likely to see eye to eye on this particular issue but in general I think you made some good critiques in your OP.

    Well I can agree to disagree on this matter, thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    "I main Necro"

    And there goes your entire Post up in flames.

    As a Tipp: NEVER mention what class you play/main or you loose your credibility.

    At this point its looks more like a hidden "Necro is the worst class , nerf everthing else below the ground" thread.

    Dont get me wrong.
    All your points are correct.

    But there are alot of people that will stop reading after the words "I main Necro".

    I assume this reply was actually meant at me and not the person you quote, otherwise it makes no sense contextually.

    To be fair, when the list seems to contain mostly items that are uniquely prominent to your specified main, it does suggest a major bias. What works to invalidate the view point is when it seems to focus mainly on those biases, and other examples are suspiciously token in their weighting. So surprise, surprise when people assume that things a given class struggles with the most are called "game mode wide problems", and not fully acknowledge it from multiple angles, that they would think this is a "nerf the things kills me" thread.

    I do not main necro.... Maybe I need to put a disclaimer somewhere, I once used to tho.

    I assume you mean section 1 with bias. While necro might be the class that pops into your head that struggles with these issues, you could replace it with any build that has less than 3 good movement skills and the arguments would work. Condi rev for example struggle with the very same things just as an example (there are others but that hardly feels like something worth listing). I personally do not think that any nerfs or buffs can really fix this area adequately as it is imo a design flaw. How visible the problem is changes from patch to patch.

    With a predisposition of those types of complaint threads being long winded, to feign a credible argument, a wall of text does have to put effort into either prefacing or concluding on well compressed TLDR, so a reader gets your idea from the get go, and better follow the specific arguments that in the body.

    This is the shortened version. The TLDR or rather the prefacing would be the headlines to each (sub)section, being much more concise while keeping any amount of precision is hard. That this thread could be formulated better and/or structured I am sure, but sadly I am not the experienced write I wish I was. I'd say the structure is readable, tho it could be improved.

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

    That would fall under "1.5 Overall Damage Proliferation" where I talk about excessive damage multipliers, ferocity is one of the damage multipliers this game has, if it is the one that needs toning down or not is hard to say

    Retaliation isn't foremost what puts you into combat, your trap doing damage is, that'd be a rework of how you're put into combat (something that would be nice but more of a QoL fix). Retaliation as a mechanic I find pretty poor, but not quite bad enough to write about.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    Then I whole heartedly agree ^^

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is a saying in the business world.... "Ain't nobody got time for that". Its no secret most people in charge of hiring will not bother reading past the first page of a resume, unless they catch something warranting investigating further. This idea builds off the fact that if you can't establish something important quickly, then its likely a person is going with a quantity over quality approach that is as meaningless as it is vast. The more complex the information being conveyed, the more important it needs to be grounded with a proper frame of reference that can be built and easily elaborated on.

    For instance.... long lists can usually be organized by common elements. If a long list of elements have nothing in common, then how do you move between topics, or clearly explain the interactions? Looking at list, and knowing the common arguments around the forums, everything can be boiled down to a problem of raw volume and scaling. Theres simply too much everything. But I can break that down further, with few words, by pointing out the scaling problem goes hand in hand the indiscriminate nature of skill targeting; and that the power scaling problem is the result of skills being balanced around Raids, which are the inverse of the PvP combat the skills were originally designed around.

    If I were to write a thesis, I state that the problems seen in WvW are the indirect result of Raids (which have opposing goals to PvP combat), combined with the direct result of POF Especs being designed to dismantle an entire PvP meta; but ironically made it stronger.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭

    Hitting with every CC you have on CD when engaging is a viable strategy. If you catch a couple of people out of position and thin numbers. All your aoe bombs are going to be more effective as you limited number of bodies stacking. Positioning and when to engage is so important. Could be the difference between a 20 man Zerg fighting a 50 man or suddenly fighting another 20 man on a good push.

  • @starlinvf.1358 said:
    There is a saying in the business world.... "Ain't nobody got time for that". Its no secret most people in charge of hiring will not bother reading past the first page of a resume, unless they catch something warranting investigating further. This idea builds off the fact that if you can't establish something important quickly, then its likely a person is going with a quantity over quality approach that is as meaningless as it is vast. The more complex the information being conveyed, the more important it needs to be grounded with a proper frame of reference that can be built and easily elaborated on.

    For sure, the prefacing could be better. Yet it is hardly a disaster, nor are any of the points which I convey terribly complex and the grounding is adequate.

    For instance.... long lists can usually be organized by common elements. If a long list of elements have nothing in common, then how do you move between topics, or clearly explain the interactions? Looking at list, and knowing the common arguments around the forums, everything can be boiled down to a problem of raw volume and scaling. Theres simply too much everything. But I can break that down further, with few words, by pointing out the scaling problem goes hand in hand the indiscriminate nature of skill targeting; and that the power scaling problem is the result of skills being balanced around Raids, which are the inverse of the PvP combat the skills were originally designed around.

    The list is organized into sections and subsections, more than that would feel excessive given how each subsection is only a paragraph or two at most and the subsections are categorized more or less anyway.

    If I were to write a thesis, I state that the problems seen in WvW are the indirect result of Raids (which have opposing goals to PvP combat), combined with the direct result of POF Especs being designed to dismantle an entire PvP meta; but ironically made it stronger.

    I get that it's a bit long but thesis is pushing it.

    Gonna finish this by saying, if you wanna discuss how the original post is written, which I will admit isn't perfect, it might be best to continue in private messaging. It really is very off-topic to discuss formatting and writing in a thread about ingame issues.

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