New Dagger Storm Is Unfun Power Creep (Please Anet stop doing these arbitrary power creeps) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New Dagger Storm Is Unfun Power Creep (Please Anet stop doing these arbitrary power creeps)

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  • samo.1054samo.1054 Member ✭✭✭

    It's really just like so many other invuln. skills out there and there are also similarities on dealing with it the same way as you deal with Warrior's rampage. Besides that, I'm willing to bet that you will still get killed by warrior on rampage more often than by a thief in daggerstorm. I can't see why people make such a big fuss about it really. The skill has its usage now, while before it really did not. How is that a bad thing?

    All in all, yes, I do not agree with such skills existing and I think that you shouldn't be able to just deal damage while being invuln. to damage and that goes for ALL the classes.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    Every single skill that deals damage while evading is cancer - no matter how much damage it deals and how long the cooldown is. The few counters to evades such as spectral wall are gimmicky at best and easy to avoid.

    It should not be possible to deal damage while sitting in an evade frame. That's bad game design.

    Yes, Dagger Storm was weak before. I even named my thief "Agent Dagger Storm" to troll my team in PvP ("You aren't really running DS, are you? Please change the elite skill or I will go afk!").

    The skill offers too much now. It's extremely versatile. It negates Rampage, Endure Pain, Soulbeast burst, Holo forge burst, Reaper Shroud and lots of other stuff without the need to kite (which means wasting dodges or even Shadowstep). On condi thief it is a very strong time window after dodge- and evade-spamming to refill initiative and endurance while even keeping up pressure without any counterplay except running away which does not work against a thief.

    It's just strong. People just did not figure out until now how strong it has become. I will take it over Basilisk all day now as it's a great baiting and recovering skill.

    Only Deadeyes should not use it for obvious reasons (reveal break).

  • samo.1054samo.1054 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The skill offers too much now. It's extremely versatile. It negates Rampage, Endure Pain, Soulbeast burst, Holo forge burst, Reaper Shroud and lots of other stuff without the need to kite (which means wasting dodges or even Shadowstep). .

    I can't see anything wrong with it negating those things as they are equally kitten.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    It does more than that (as I mentioned) and that's the problem. Besides that you should remember that theef has already had options before to avoid these things.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSin.5682 said:
    That was indeed unnecessary. I mean... evasion of all things?

    Dagger Storm is now the perfect run away tool. Extra speed, reflect, evasion, stability and Cripple. And can clean one condition.

    Spinning.... extra speed... running away... quickly? Fast?

    Gotta go fast!!!

    Let’s rename it Sanic Storm. :lol:

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:
    Anybody want to run 10+ thieves and SS+DS into an enemy zerg? Sounds like hilarious fun.

    Don't forget to bring venoms and also be in full Viper's gear!

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    double venom share s/d viper (or even trailblazer) thief trolling:

    thief1 casts venoms, double sword2 to target, thief1 dagger storm, thief2 kites, double sword2 to teleport back
    thief2 casts venoms, double sword2 to target, thief2 dagger storm, thief1 kites, double sword2 to teleport back

    profit and zero counterplay

    for the case that something goes wrong: just equip shadowstep and instant reflexes as backup

  • Vornollo.5182Vornollo.5182 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Vornollo.5182 said:
    Oh kitten..
    This is the exact opposite of what should happen... Too many classes got too much sustain while dealing damage, that should be toned down gamewide, but instead they add more..?

    Adding sustain is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact some skills could use more sustainability.

    Can't help but feel this a little like "everyone else has it, so why shouldn't we?" sort of thing.
    Just because there's a lot of people saying 1+1=3 doesn't make it right.
    Those others also need toning down.

    [PUSH] Constant Pressure

  • Artaz.3819Artaz.3819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    After some play time:

    • DS is awesome in Zerg v Zerg standoffs. You trigger traps/marks and enemies blow all kinds of alpha on you while you sit pretty in evasion. Your zerg crushes other zerg if bait taken especially if Warriors follow up with the bubble. Hint, trait Payback in Deadeye line for some real OP :open_mouth:
    • DS will be nerfed soon to prevent point capture in PvP for sure.
    • It would be nice if this was an ammo Elite that had 4 charges for 1s each (1s cooldown). I'd like it to play more like a pseudo-Mirage style and for it to really have some more intelligent counter-play use.
  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was using DS nearly all the time in wvw, due to amount of soulbeasts and deadeyes. I already 1 shoted few deadeyes. I like the change, but i can agree its to op. 4,5 s invulnerable with dmg, combo finisher and reflect. :D :D I see the use for that in zerg/blob fights, finally im not gonna be kicked out of a squad ( maybe (i rly hope so)).
    I like the change but i think, it needs nerf, maybe ammunition system or at least shorten the duration to 3/ 3,5 sec.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

    With your reflect only? No you didn't.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

    With your reflect only? No you didn't.

    do you have any idea what happens when ~14 k hp thief 2x double tap u? ^^ check it out

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That wouldn't really be a 1 shot then, but I see how it could down the initial attacker if they don't have much hp. Their power and your ferocity would have to be pretty high for that kind of damage though.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

    With your reflect only? No you didn't.

    On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

    With your reflect only? No you didn't.

    On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

    Only the power is applicable from the original source. The precision and ferocity all come from whomever is reflecting. Many %damage increase traits that have requirements also won't apply their bonuses as well like: Twin Fangs, Ferocious Strikes, No Quarter, Iron Sight, and Exposed Weakness - Unless the person who is reflecting also has those traits equipped and their prerequisites are met. Same with things like Sigil of Force and Scholar Runes 6th piece bonus.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Majic.4801Majic.4801 Member ✭✭✭

    Guess I'm going to have to dust off and try Dagger Storm now...

    "Not the same, real and true. True you feel inside. Always follow what is true." -- Sentry-skritt Bordekka
    "I am so much more important than whatever it is you're doing!" -- Explorer Hiffa
    "Harpy love hurts!" -- Shaman Shoba

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

    With your reflect only? No you didn't.

    On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

    Only the power is applicable from the original source. The precision and ferocity all come from whomever is reflecting. Many %damage increase traits that have requirements also won't apply their bonuses as well like: Twin Fangs, Ferocious Strikes, No Quarter, Iron Sight, and Exposed Weakness - Unless the person who is reflecting also has those traits equipped and their prerequisites are met. Same with things like Sigil of Force and Scholar Runes 6th piece bonus.

    Ah, interesting. Thanks for the info! :)

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I say reduce the duration by 50%.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2018

    i have played the new form, and it's not the game changer some of you are making it out to be.

    it hit up to 8 times if you have enough foes and they are close enough.

    they only skills you can use while doing DS are insta cast like venom of signets

    long cooldown

    doesn't recharge anything.

    it's a long evade with dinky damage.

    before the change it was garbage/very situational

    edit: i guess they can rename the skill to super escape,

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what I've seen it seems like most people are fine with this change (not here but in general).

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    edit: i guess they can rename the skill to super escape,

    Impaling Lotus ++

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

    How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

    All is vain.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

    How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

    I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

    That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that were already applied before activating the skill.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

    How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

    I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

    That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that were already applied before activating the skill.

    I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.

    All is vain.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

    How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

    I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

    That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that were already applied before activating the skill.

    I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.

    Well yes, you would handle it the same if you are power. However not everyone is all power so when EP or SoS is popped against hybrid or condi builds it's just business as usual for them - they'll keep attacking as normal as their condis will still land and do damage.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

    How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

    I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

    That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that were already applied before activating the skill.

    I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.

    Well yes, you would handle it the same if you are power. However not everyone is all power so when EP or SoS is popped against hybrid or condi builds it's just business as usual for them - they'll keep attacking as normal as their condis will still land and do damage.

    I suppose so. Guess I never really saw much difference between evades,invuln, or signet/endure since they all have the same effect to me. I still feel like if I can get used to peeling off classes for a few seconds to wait out cool downs, condi players can get used to it too though.

    All is vain.

  • ParanoidKami.2867ParanoidKami.2867 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2018

    I didn't really think there was anything wrong with it so don't understand why it had to be buffed/nerfed. For those who don't know how to use it you need to get in a hitbox, like a downed opponent, and try to stay there. All your attacks will hit inside the hitbox and you do huge AoE damage(10-15k). It's enough that you can sometimes end an entire sPvP team fight with it. Using it to reflect range attacks, stop people from fleeing, or escaping was just a side thing you could do, but it puts it in cooldown, which you might not want, as it's less of an effect. The evade essentially makes you invulnerable so you can delay a cap or use it in a team fight where you're disadvantaged so it would be suicide to use it before the buff. Honestly, if they were going to buff it a smaller cooldown would be better so you could use it for more things which would have been preferred over increasing the cooldown and making it trolly.

  • alchemyst.2165alchemyst.2165 Member ✭✭
    edited September 1, 2018

    Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

    I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

    Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2018

    @alchemyst.2165 said:
    Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

    I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

    Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

    Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2018

    Instead of making DB a real evade they just overpower the hell out of this elite lol. Now all thieves can chain evades like D/D, without the added punish frames!

    Instead of nerfing the amount of sustain and unblockable projectiles, they add more sustain to counter it.

    It's this rock-paper-scissors nonsense that makes people quit. For %$#&'s sake, JUST UNDO POWERCREEP.

    If this is the result of the Systems Team, they've already failed miserably, and it verifies what I've said for a long time: ANet is detached from their own game, and puts PvE roleplay balance in much higher stead than competitive mode balance.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • "dagger storm is completely useless. doesn't do anything and only get yourself killed"
    dagger storm gets an evade
    "omg totally broken op kitten?!?!?!" xD

    yes, those evades, invulns and stuff promote a lazy and passive way of playing, nothing new about that.
    a-net doesn't delete or change such things, as we all witness since quite a while.
    there are thieves wanting more sustain for thief, so a-net gives it to them, while keep walking their path of rather powercreeping skills/traits that are totally ok, instead of nerfing others- that's just how they do it. i neither like it...

    but some comments here are so ridiculously dramatic concerning daggerstorms performance before the buff, aswell as after the buff.

  • alchemyst.2165alchemyst.2165 Member ✭✭
    edited September 2, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @alchemyst.2165 said:
    Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

    I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

    Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

    Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

    Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2018

    @alchemyst.2165 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @alchemyst.2165 said:
    Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

    I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

    Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

    Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

    Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

    The ranged damage is minimal. You are unlikely to get hit by more then two of these daggers. I just spent several hours in WvW and saw a number of thieves using the skill. Some escaped as many and more were downed. The damage THEY inflicted in turn was minimal and could all but be ignored as there far more damage coming from other classes and other skills. Indeed damage wise you got more to fear from a DE NOT doing the spin and using a TRB from stealth instead . As to bland gameplay it no different really then waiting for a thief to leave stealth or the endure pain to run out on a warrior. It 4 seconds and a bit and you are not seeing it again for 90. POWERcreep is defined by an OP skill. This skill is not OP in any way shape or form. Quite frankly when I am playing my warrior or my necromancer, I would much rather see a thief using DS then one using SMELD. Somehing much nastier will be coming your way after an smeld then a few daggers.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2018

    It would be a more interesting skill if it were on around a 20s cooldown, granted 1s evade, 1-1.5s projectile reflect (similar to scrapper hammer reflect) and simply threw daggers at everything in range that bleed, cripple and bounce to more targets (so like a supercharged dagger 4) with an animation of similar timing to a triggered full counter. Lower cooldown means more interaction with trickster, and the lower duration makes it counterable as it's more about timing the skill for a true shot or overcharged shot etc so the stab wouldn't be needed. That's my two cents anyways, numbers are obviously variable for balance etc.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

    From my perspective, DS isn't anywhere from being imbalanced. In fact it compete on the spot with basilisk venom, shadow meld and impact strike.
    So when you see thief has dagger storm you already know that he given up some of its utility/survivability.
    Also from what I've seen, it is being used mostly by sd builds, which already have close to no reliable cc.

    On the other side, I can imagine how strong this ability can be in a masspvp environment. And I'd say there it is needed. Unlike many other classes, and you know it, thief doesn't have a lot of damage reduction. So, getting some sort of fomo button is okay.

    And I consider it fun, unlike OP mentioned, Your stream show that is really fun)

    Out of everything, 4,5 per 90 sec is just a BS to be counted as OP.

    3 ammo for 1,5 sec on 30 sec cooldown,
    Or
    2 ammo for 2,5 sec on 45 sec

    could've make it tho.

  • AikijinX.6258AikijinX.6258 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm easing my way back into this game again, and I've just seen this new DS change. Honestly I like it, however yes the counterplay isnt really there. The Thief in me wants to say "Good this is what we've deserved, and needed to make D.S actually fun to run, plus this is pretty much what Mirages can spec into with traits their dodge, reflect" But the Good natured person in me is calling for abit of a tweak on the skill. I love it just the way it is, however I acknowledge it's abit strong with evasion builds, and a RNG improv proc.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @alchemyst.2165 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @alchemyst.2165 said:
    Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

    I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

    Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

    Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

    Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

    The ranged damage is minimal. You are unlikely to get hit by more then two of these daggers. I just spent several hours in WvW and saw a number of thieves using the skill. Some escaped as many and more were downed. The damage THEY inflicted in turn was minimal and could all but be ignored as there far more damage coming from other classes and other skills. Indeed damage wise you got more to fear from a DE NOT doing the spin and using a TRB from stealth instead . As to bland gameplay it no different really then waiting for a thief to leave stealth or the endure pain to run out on a warrior. It 4 seconds and a bit and you are not seeing it again for 90. POWERcreep is defined by an OP skill. This skill is not OP in any way shape or form. Quite frankly when I am playing my warrior or my necromancer, I would much rather see a thief using DS then one using SMELD. Somehing much nastier will be coming your way after an smeld then a few daggers.

    We're gonna have to agree to disagree then.

    I've been running it and testing it out for the past few days and all it's really turned into is a "yolo" no-thinking skill.

    You're right about it being bland in regards to endure pain or thieves leaving stealth. That's exactly my point; we don't need any more of that type of gameplay. It's nice to finally have a good buff, but truthfully, we didn't need all of that, and it's just a bit ridiculous. We complain about the same types of skills on mirage, but when they're given to us we're happy about it. But that's just my perspective.

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