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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Lucius.2140 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

That's literally all.

I want a 5 man mode, even if they could not be called raids. My gripe about raids its that getting a group of 9 takes time and i dont have that much free time, specially if you are going with friends. Plus its more difficult to carry people if your guild have only 3-5 players that play good and not all are connected.

Im sure im not alone in the time and size problem.

The 5-man mode is called "Fractals of the Mists". There are the dungeons as well, but they are no longer developed/supported.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:

  • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

Just a quick reminder that the current pve legendary armor isn't "pve legendary armor", it's specifically "heart of thorns raid legendary armor".Maybe expansion 3 will add a more universal pve legendary armor?

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

That's literally all.

I want a 5 man mode, even if they could not be called raids. My gripe about raids its that getting a group of 9 takes time and i dont have that much free time, specially if you are going with friends. Plus its more difficult to carry people if your guild have only 3-5 players that play good and not all are connected.

Im sure im not alone in the time and size problem.

The 5-man mode is called "Fractals of the Mists". There are the dungeons as well, but they are no longer developed/supported.

Not the same content, neither the same level of difficulty. I wish that content its playable in a 5 group mode and i dont think im the only one.

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@Sephylon.4938 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:I stand by what I've been saying so far:

  • the actual gameplay difficulty of raids is fine and quite low (to succeed, not master)

  • organisational aspect like grouping and LFG need to be improved and tools for Such improved/implemented

  • the amount of work for multiple difficulties is to high with a not guaranteed positive result it might have. Especially considering a big part of the Pro easy raids crowd just wants the loot and couldn't care less about the game mode

  • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

These are all rational decisions that i can 100% support as they mirror what i've been saying for ages as well.

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@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

I don't get why you're bringing up rotation if the person I'm talking about is a newbie that no one know what this person can do. You're all ignoring that I'm talking about someone that has never done a raid before and the people who would normally play the raids has no idea what kind of skill this newbie has. How is a newbie in exotics and/or below going to be a better choice to try than a newbie that has ascended with infusions? Or are they both going to have the same exact chance of getting in?

I mean are you saying people can actually see what the newbie has done in training or that they would actually follow the newbie into a training and watch them do their rotation? Do you think they'd actually take the time to see all that? Serious question because I'm in that camp of feeling like it'll be too much time to get the equipment before anyone would consider me in a raid.

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@"DaFishBob.6518" said:I don't get why you're bringing up rotation if the person I'm talking about is a newbie that no one know what this person can do. You're all ignoring that I'm talking about someone that has never done a raid before and the people who would normally play the raids has no idea what kind of skill this newbie has. How is a newbie in exotics and/or below going to be a better choice to try than a newbie that has ascended with infusions? Or are they both going to have the same exact chance of getting in?

I mean are you saying people can actually see what the newbie has done in training or that they would actually follow the newbie into a training and watch them do their rotation? Do you think they'd actually take the time to see all that? Serious question because I'm in that camp of feeling like it'll be too much time to get the equipment before anyone would consider me in a raid.

If the person is truly a newbie they have bigger fish to fry than trying to raid. So let's cut from the disngenous "but mah noob friends" sob story argument.

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@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

I don't get why you're bringing up rotation if the person I'm talking about is a
newbie
that no one know what this person can do. You're all ignoring that I'm talking about someone that has never done a raid before and the people who would normally play the raids has no idea what kind of skill this
newbie
has. How is a
newbie
in exotics and/or below going to be a better choice to try than a
newbie
that has ascended with infusions? Or are they both going to have the same exact chance of getting in?

I mean are you saying people can actually see what the
newbie
has done in training or that they would actually follow the
newbie
into a training and watch them do their rotation? Do you think they'd actually take the time to see all that? Serious question because I'm in that camp of feeling like it'll be too much time to get the equipment before anyone would consider me in a raid.

Cause you said it yourself: "but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear", which is wrong. A player who never raided before with full exotics but knowledge of his class and rotations will have a much easier time getting into raids than someone in full asc but doesnt know what he is doing.And yes, regular raid-commanders can see if someone doesnt know his class. Its quite easy if you do raids on a daily basis, which many raider do, being it cause they like to kill the bosses, helping out friends still needing the kills or helping new players in training runs. And i dont nned arc dps for that. If the newbie is just hitting autoattacks and is (as a dh for examble and being the only dh in party) not using traps than i can tell that he doesnt know what he is doing.What new players should do before trying to get into raids is informing themself about their class and the regular setup in raids (tank, supporter, dps). They dont need to hit "metabenchmarks", but they should at least be able to pull of dps if they join on a dps-spot, even in training. Cause trainingsruns arent there to teach people their class. they are there to teach people the raidencounter, and they dont help themself or the others in the squad if they cant pull of their role at least, which can be practised on the golem and fractals before. And learning a rotation isnt hard. Most builds, being them meta or non-meta, only takes maybe some dedicated 30 mins to get a roughly idea behind the build.Its just a fact that most bosses have a timer, so people need to pul ofl some dps. If people can pull of 20-25k dps on the golem, then they should reach 10-15k dps on a boss, which a dps role should at least pull of.

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@Xantaria.8726 said:And yes, regular raid-commanders can see if someone doesnt know his class. Its quite easy if you do raids on a daily basis, which many raider do, being it cause they like to kill the bosses, helping out friends still needing the kills or helping new players in training runs. And i dont nned arc dps for that. If the newbie is just hitting autoattacks and is (as a dh for examble and being the only dh in party) not using traps than i can tell that he doesnt know what he is doing.

This, oh so much this right here.

If you have run the content so many times as many regulars have, you notice immediately if someone steps out of line and how grave his mistake is/was. This can be as basic as standing just slightly off the group or taking a moment to long movement wise or missing some basic non lethal mechanic. I'm not even talking about basic stuff like Gorseval slams or other obvious things, talking basic positioning of the entire squad which an experienced commander has in view.

I've had training runs where even though we performed fine, killed the boss with no losses, ran through first try more experienced players would friendly call out mistakes (being at 700 LI myself with currently 8 weeks of no GW2 access due to work, I do have friends who are at 1.2k LI and above). The same goes for myself when I run training or normal raids with 250 LI or below.

The only times I've ever seen (or asked for myself) of any type of armor or item linking for raids is when it's legendary armor to meet the LI requirements if some are imposed. Depending on class rotation complexity, 10-20 minutes of golem training will let someone in all exotics vastly pull ahead of someone in full ascended. People severely underestimate how much a little practice and rotation safety can bring performance wise while greatly overestimating how much ascended versus exotic gear provides (not to mention that armor is nearly insignificant in this scenario).

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All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

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@DaFishBob.6518 said:I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

Another way for them to find out is by playing those other pieces of content that provide the gear. If they are having trouble in fractals, chances are they will have trouble in Raids too. If they have trouble in low tier fractals, they will have problems in higher tiers. Difficulty increases progressively in the game so there is plenty of opportunity to learn your skill level.

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IMo its is more a lack of decent A.I(more towards simulated behavior than A.I ofc... ) & mechanics, rather than have more health sponges hitting hard...

Boss mechanics are not clever, just dull aoe cast every mob is most the same and that it, stack in one place and spam...

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@"DaFishBob.6518" said:All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

How would they even know they were a noobie?

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@"DaFishBob.6518" said:And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

You're the one that brought it up. You're trying to force someone whose at baseline 0 into the endgame experience. It's a bad practice built on a bad faith argument.

Either you're1) Under Geared (In which case play the game, craft gear go raid)2) Inexperienced (In which case join a training run)or3) A Greenhorn not just to raids, but to the game. In which case stop rushing and play the game. Raids ain't going anywhere.

So stop using disengious arguments like think of the noobies. I am. I'm thinking they still have a long way to go before contemplating raids if they are actually noobies like you know dungeons to gear up, fractals to gear up etc....There's plenty of 0 cost (outside of time) gear for people to grab to enable them getting started on the path to raids that doesn't involve fake outrage leading to an "easy mode" slippery slope.

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@DaFishBob.6518 said:All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

If it's a training raid, personally I don't care if people are exotic or ascended as long as the stats on the gear are correct or close to correct.

What I'm saying is:The chance of not getting booted for perforing badly will drastically reduce for having rotation experience rather than going in full ascended and clueless.

@DaFishBob.6518 said:And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

Even more of a reason to start with exotic gear which is a fraction of ascended cost.

Though I do agree to what other people are mentioning: taking someone completely inexperienced strait to raids is not in their best interest UNLESS it's maybe a guild training raid and the players are fast learners.

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@Sephylon.4938 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

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@yann.1946 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

Oh let's not get all melodramatic.

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

Yah.. but it could still be applied to thieves, warriors, and other basic DPS classes.

and golems are there for DPS meters, yet we have 3rd party software to help us.. this is the same thing.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

Oh let's not get all melodramatic.

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

nah

Eh.. why not!

Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

Yah.. but it could still be applied to thieves, warriors, and other basic DPS classes.

and golems are there for DPS meters, yet we have 3rd party software to help us.. this is the same thing.

Yeah but if we put it for 1, the others will cry for it as well

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@"DaFishBob.6518" said:And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

You're the one that brought it up. You're trying to force someone whose at baseline 0 into the endgame experience. It's a bad practice built on a bad faith argument.

Either you're1) Under Geared (In which case play the game, craft gear go raid)2) Inexperienced (In which case join a training run)or3) A Greenhorn not just to raids, but to the game. In which case stop rushing and play the game. Raids ain't going anywhere.

So stop using disengious arguments like think of the noobies. I am. I'm thinking they still have a long way to go before contemplating raids if they are actually noobies like you know dungeons to gear up, fractals to gear up etc....There's plenty of 0 cost (outside of time) gear for people to grab to enable them getting started on the path to raids that doesn't involve fake outrage leading to an "easy mode" slippery slope.

I guess if you consider newbie = noob you could say that.

In my mind, a noob is a person that might not actually be new, just plain bad and unwilling to get better and complaining things must be easier to cater to their whims instead of getting down and making the effort to get better. I don't care about noobs, they don't deserve to pass the raid experience because nothing save just leaving a box of rewards at the entrance would satisfy them. "easy mode?" Do you not notice I voted against "easy mode?"

I was trying to focus on those who one way or another have no experience with raids but are interested in getting up to that level of play. Give them a chance to go in, gear up, and fail until they finish it for a paltry reward (just gold and karma) and decide they might want to do it for real. No wasting time on anything else but the experience of learning mechanics and effective character use (AKA dps rotations). Then decide to go all in. Burn me for calling me disingenuous. Is it wrong to suggest that they can demo what a raid is like without bothering the regular raiders?

By the way, how often do you see training runs normally? Because if there are people who would regularly do training runs then I'll admit my ideas and concerns go out the window.

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