"You're not Druid/Chrono? Bye bye then..." - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

"You're not Druid/Chrono? Bye bye then..."

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Comments

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only problem with Druid/Chrono is that it contradicts the illusion ANET tries to cast that every profession is equally viable, and that no trinity system exists. Outside of raids, I think that is true, given you don't need Druid/Chrono in T1-3 fractals, and you can complete T4 without them, it just makes it harder / less forgiving of mistakes or poor play.

    I don't have a Mesmer, and my Ranger will be Soulbeast forever, and I have no problem with going into T4 LFG and seeing "LF Chrono / Druid", because I'm sure as kitten glad to see both in my party when I zone into the fractal lobby.

  • Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    The burst is not from a Support build, so yes mesmer has other builds and can spike really well. Please don't come here an bring the "dps, boon share, healing the class can do all build" and expect to get taken seriously.

    The entire comparison with WoW is wierd. WoW has Party wide permanent buffs, dedicated healers, dedicated tanks, cooldowns which reduce damage or which increases damage by a huge fraction even if temporary.

    Not sure what an entire different combat system has to do with GW2. Literally Apples to Oranges.

    Quick ess has been in the game since release and if a permanent application of it was not intended it would not have been changed to a boon and definately not made available to even more classes.

  • @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    The only problem with Druid/Chrono is that it contradicts the illusion ANET tries to cast that every profession is equally viable, and that no trinity system exists. Outside of raids, I think that is true, given you don't need Druid/Chrono in T1-3 fractals, and you can complete T4 without them, it just makes it harder / less forgiving of mistakes or poor play.

    I don't have a Mesmer, and my Ranger will be Soulbeast forever, and I have no problem with going into T4 LFG and seeing "LF Chrono / Druid", because I'm sure as kitten glad to see both in my party when I zone into the fractal lobby.

    The non-trinity idea never applied to raids. That was pretty clear from the first beta we could play them. Also trinity would still exist if you tank with a firebrand and heal with a revenant.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

    I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

    I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

    Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

    Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

    You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

    I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

    Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

    Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

    You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

    Thats true. He argued that 100% uptime on quickness is broken and that this level of dps boost should be only for short burst phases. I countered with the fact that modifire from quickness is not that much better then modifier from might (and definitly on same level as might+fury) but those modifires are completely fine. The fact that quickness is rarer doesnt change the fact that similar modifier is not broken.
    After anet fix the firebrand mantras there will be competition and we can start talking about nerfs.
    But in pve there will always be best option, be it dps slot, might stacker or quickness bot. You can clear raids with core necromancers as you can with firebrands/renegades.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My bad then. You're right - perma quickness isn't "op" any more than perma 25 might.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then maybe expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays cough Nekro minions cough.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then maybe expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays cough Nekro minions cough.

    One of the worst things they can do. It further reduces everything down to damage they deal and utility they bring while removing flavour. Tempest will still not be used as a healer. Renegade will just take the place of druids to get 100% alacrity in all situations. Chronos will be still irreplaceable.
    Druids can already be replaced by soulbeasts. Spotter is just a bonus and not neccessary and the effect of spirits scales with the other players stats. It doesn't matter who brings them. SB can bring one spirit without much DPS loss. All things that druid brings besides some might and Glyph of Empowerment are core skills.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Simple solution....

    Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.
    Then fix the fundemental issues the Revenant class has to actually make them and their elites usable without intentionally pigeonholing them like they've done before.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:
    When i started raiding their where a few times where people decided to take a hammerguard because the group was having troubles. My argument is Chrono is overpowered because it takes away almost all the choice.

    Hammerguard got dropped from meta long before Chaos Chrono times, and it got dropped for reasons that had nothing to do with Chrono, but a lot with its dps. And even when it was still considered to be an option, it was a subpar choice.

    It would change it drasticly but should it be a reason. If you assume giving all the boons is OP (I know we disagree on this but roll with it for a second) should we stop trying to fix it because it would make the content harder?

    But is it? Let's be honest, the group will have all the needed boons anyway. All that might change is only how restictive the group composition would need to be in order to achieve that. If so, is there any gain in making it more restrictive than it already is?

    To make different options equal we can't just buff the underperforming classes. We also should nerf the overperforming classes even it would make the content harder.

    Sure. The question however is whether chrono is overperforming at all (and if it is, to what degree). That cannot be answered if all people do is to compare it with hybrid builds. Any specialized build can be said to overperform compared to hybrid ones (unless it's really, really bad), but it doesn't mean it's overperforming in general.

    Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    When i started raiding their where a few times where people decided to take a hammerguard because the group was having troubles. My argument is Chrono is overpowered because it takes away almost all the choice.

    Hammerguard got dropped from meta long before Chaos Chrono times, and it got dropped for reasons that had nothing to do with Chrono, but a lot with its dps. And even when it was still considered to be an option, it was a subpar choice.

    I know my point was that this was something that people could do to help the group even if it was not the best choice.

    This is a something which I feel was healthier.
    I don't think hammerguard ever was Meta tho?

    It would change it drasticly but should it be a reason. If you assume giving all the boons is OP (I know we disagree on this but roll with it for a second) should we stop trying to fix it because it would make the content harder?

    But is it? Let's be honest, the group will have all the needed boons anyway. All that might change is only how restictive the group composition would need to be in order to achieve that. If so, is there any gain in making it more restrictive than it already is?

    why have boons in pve at all if you don't have to make choices.

    And I was mostly arguing against the argument that we shouldn't change things cause they will make it harder.

    To make different options equal we can't just buff the underperforming classes. We also should nerf the overperforming classes even it would make the content harder.

    Sure. The question however is whether chrono is overperforming at all (and if it is, to what degree). That cannot be answered if all people do is to compare it with hybrid builds. Any specialized build can be said to overperform compared to hybrid ones (unless it's really, really bad), but it doesn't mean it's overperforming in general.

    Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

    The question is what is sufficient I guess.

  • @Sephylon.4938 said:
    Dd has a boon share build?

    Yes, it basically gives every boon except for alacrity to all 10 players in your squad. It only works on some bosses due to the stolen skill.
    On bosses like Mursaat, this allows your chronos to go duel illu and still share the boons the deadeyes need with help of the daredevil.
    Depending on how fast your squad is with the kill you can even drop well of action for the disenchanter.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:
    I don't think hammerguard ever was Meta tho?

    It was borderline at some point. It was a bit inferior to the normal dps guardian build, but not too much behind, and it offered not only perma prot, but also better cc. Usually you'd also be taking refects on it. It went out of use after a while, and the main reason was that permaprot just wasn't all that useful to justify the dps loss (which became bigger and bigger with every balance patch).

    @yann.1946 said:
    why have boons in pve at all if you don't have to make choices.

    I guess to separate yolo/casual groups from the more organized ones.

    Seriously, i don't remember offhand any point in time/MMO when you really had the choice. The boons were either useful enough to take, in which case they were taken, or they weren't useful enough to justify sacrifices, in which case they were left out of the picture. As far as boons are concerned, there is always the optimal setup. All the variations come only from how you arrive at that goal.

    And I was mostly arguing against the argument that we shouldn't change things cause they will make it harder.

    Except that seems to be the only point of the proposed changes - to make the group setup more restrictive.

    Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

    The question is what is sufficient I guess.

    At this moment it seems that the absolute minimum requirement is being able to give perma Alacrity + Quickness.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Simple solution....

    Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

    No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then maybe expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays cough Nekro minions cough.

    That was Blizzard's approach, and its been a horrible disaster. "Bring the player not the class" was the slope their development team slid down, until currently most classes have a fraction of the abilities they had back in Vanilla or Burning Crusade.

    In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

    I'm perfectly fine with Memsers and Druids being super important because they are not CRITICAL. Last night I did my T4s with a group that didn't have a Chrono, and the Druid was mediocre. Still got the dailies done (lol @ aquatic ruins though).

    Raiding is a different animal though, and as I don't raid, will not comment.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    That was Blizzard's approach, and its been a horrible disaster. "Bring the player not the class" was the slope their development team slid down, until currently most classes have a fraction of the abilities they had back in Vanilla or Burning Crusade.

    In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

    I'm perfectly fine with Memsers and Druids being super important because they are not CRITICAL. Last night I did my T4s with a group that didn't have a Chrono, and the Druid was mediocre. Still got the dailies done (lol @ aquatic ruins though).

    Raiding is a different animal though, and as I don't raid, will not comment.

    I have one of every class and (almost) every build so it is not a problem for me to adapt. I wager to say that it is "easier" in traditional MMOs (at least in LotrO and SW:TOR when I still played those) to change classes on the fly though, as rotations - in my memory at least - were easier to maintain in those than in GW2 where you can see vast differences in performances on pretty much any build. Mind you I know that my idea would probably not work in reality and doing so would probably lead to dropping the warr for a stronger DPS as well as creating another set of problems down the road.
    On the other hand, PUGs and non-elite guilds don't care too much what kind of DPS build you bring (outside, say, Staff Weaver for Matthias i.E.) and bring two healers most of the time already thus I imagine changing banner/spirits in that way would make the content more accessible for the "average" player but on the other hand would lead to top performing groups breezing through the content even faster than they already do by nature of having one more DPS slot available. :shrug:

    Right now the "problem" (if you think it really is a problem, I don't think so though I am biased as a Chrono and Druid player) stems from the fact that great performance is only achievable by having two Chronos, one Warrior and one Druid in your raid squad by nature of how their skills, boons and buffs are designed. The critical aspect being that as long as the numbers of said effects outweight taking another pure DPS instead you will keep a Warrior for the banners.
    Same can be said for Druid as well, even though Soulbeasts can bring spirits too, because while the class is actually mediocre in terms of healing output it provides still a ton of utility via pets, strong buff output (Might, Regeneration, Fury, Swiftness + spirits), powerful rezzes (Search and Rescue, Nature's Spirit), ranged heals for "sniping" etc.

    Ultimately by the freedom the game itself sets, designing a group for number restricted content boils down to opportunity cost. If keeping players alive and mechanics are dealt with it comes down to maximizing DPS, as was already stated, and for that purpose Chrono and Druid are very good packages all around. Nevermind the lack of other full boon supporters that could compete with Chronomancer rather than boon/dps hybrids.
    Much in the same way, shaking up the Meta as envisioned by some would either lead to a more restrictive meta or another meta but ultimately the players complaining now about being kicked from groups for bringing the wrong class would still be kicked for bringing the wrong class.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Simple solution....

    Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

    No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

    It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.
    So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Simple solution....

    Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

    No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

    It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.
    So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

    Scaling all cool downs by a factor of .8 doesn't make them meaningless. Hyperbolic statements like that are pointless.

    If we want to break all of time down into 2 parts, when gw2 didn't have alacrity (pre-hot) and when gw2 did have alacrity. I can say without any personal doubt the best period of balance in gw2's history was during a time when alacrity was in the game. People might disagree which period, maybe when 4-4-2 was meta, or during epi bounce period, or maybe during the minionmancer days, whatever. But I doubt more than a few percent of the whole community would say the best period was during any of the pre-hot times.

    So, if alacrity is such a problem to balance around, why was balance without alacrity complete kitten compared to modern days? Because alacrity isn't anything special to balance around, Anet just didn't care pre-hot, and now they care a little. If you want better balance, removing alacrity won't do kitten. The answer is straight forward, convince Anet to care.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then maybe expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays cough Nekro minions cough.

    [...]

    In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

    [...]

    It greatly affects the personal gameplay-experience if you can't play the class you enjoy to play and that sucks. ...and yes, you can complete T4 Dailies without a Chrono or a Druid, having one of these classes though is like the difference between night and day - especially if you also do 99CM and 100CM. That leaves us with the problem that there is a huge imbalance between the number of classes the GW2-classpool offers and the classes which are actually mandatory. Mind you: classes, not roles. That's even more so true when you add raids to the equation.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Simple solution....

    Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

    No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

    It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.
    So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

    Scaling all cool downs by a factor of .8 doesn't make them meaningless. Hyperbolic statements like that are pointless.

    If we want to break all of time down into 2 parts, when gw2 didn't have alacrity (pre-hot) and when gw2 did have alacrity. I can say without any personal doubt the best period of balance in gw2's history was during a time when alacrity was in the game. People might disagree which period, maybe when 4-4-2 was meta, or during epi bounce period, or maybe during the minionmancer days, whatever. But I doubt more than a few percent of the whole community would say the best period was during any of the pre-hot times.

    So, if alacrity is such a problem to balance around, why was balance without alacrity complete kitten compared to modern days? Because alacrity isn't anything special to balance around, Anet just didn't care pre-hot, and now they care a little. If you want better balance, removing alacrity won't do kitten. The answer is straight forward, convince Anet to care.

    If cooldowns really don't matter as you're protesting, then why do we have them to begin with ?

    They are a neccessary gate and changing them drastically warps their innate power. This changes how all balance has to be factored and Anet still has not gotten this down and probably wont for a while. Removing 25% of a cooldown is extremely significant considering as you put it " Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking".

    Or are Hyperbolic statements only okay when you make them ?

    The power creep that shared alacrity introduced is immense and needs to be removed for a healthier gamestate. I have no problem with Alacrity existing so long as its only on a personal and never shared basis. Doing so allows for Anet to not only make Chrono unique by allowing it to have greater/stronger Alacrity but also removes some of the balance warping effects that it naturally brings like allowing people to have near permanant uptime on key skills/abilities.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    If cooldowns really don't matter as you're protesting, then why do we have them to begin with ?

    Never said they don't matter, I said, that multiplying cooldowns by .8 doesn't make them meaningless.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    They are a neccessary gate and changing them drastically warps their innate power. This changes how all balance has to be factored and Anet still has not gotten this down and probably wont for a while.

    Yeah all boons drastically warps the power of skills. Most classes can't break 10k with their meta builds without boons. Then with boons they are at 35k or so. You think alacrity is the only factor there?

    Can't I say the same thing about quickness? Isn't the cast time of a skill a "neccessary" gate, and changing it drastically warps its innate power? What makes alacrity so special? Skills like warrior banner res, druid spirit res, and necro signet res, quickness makes these skills way more powerful.

    Name one time in this games life pre-hot where you think Anet was doing great at balancing.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown is extremely significant considering as you put it " Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking".

    See this, you literally don't even know what alacrity does. Alacrity doesn't remove 25% of a cooldown, it speeds your rate through time by 25%. I.e. your dividing your cooldown by 1.25, which is multiplying by .8, i.e. your reducing cooldowns to 80% of original value, or removing 20% of its cool down.

    Considering your proposing the removal of an entire boon, you could at least bother to know what that boon does.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Or are Hyperbolic statements only okay when you make them ?

    I don't think my statement is hyperbolic. If I'm in a raid, and I don't have alacrity, it feels sluggish to me, and I think most experienced raiders can confirm. Not having alacrity feels slow. Maybe that's just because we are use to it, but I use to feel that way a lot more back in dungeon days when low manning. I don't think anyone ever thinks, 'I don't mind when bosses move out of my plague lands because alacrity makes the cooldown irrelevant'.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    The power creep that shared alacrity introduced is immense and needs to be removed for a healthier gamestate.

    Yeah except it didn't. All pve content that existed before alacrity, is almost completely uninfluenced by alacrity. Before alacrity entered the game, pve had dungeons and fractals up to level 50. In that content, if your running in a serious group, nearly all enemies die within the time of a single break bar (or back in pre-hot times, with defiance stacks, within the time of a icebow 5 -2headshots w/unshared basi venom + steal - icebow 5 combo). Alacrity is irrelevant in that context, because you won't be using any skill a 2nd time in such a short fight.

    If anything, you should be complaining that quickness power creeped the game, because all the old content like dungeons have been drastically power creeped by the large availability of quickness. Quickness use to be something you would get once in a dungeon run, maybe twice, from time warp. Now we have wells and firebrands giving it out frequently. Quickness actually does influence burst damage, and is much more relevant in all core content, unless your this worried about world bosses in which case, go to a different forum, because this one is about raids,fractals, and dungeons.

    In short, all pve content where alacrity is relevant, entered the game after alacrity did. So no, alacrity didn't power creep anything besides the sustained dps values at a golem, but the golem also didn't exist before alacrity so....

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    In short, all pve content where alacrity is relevant, entered the game after alacrity did. So no, alacrity didn't power creep anything besides the sustained dps values at a golem, but the golem also didn't exist before alacrity so....

    Not quoting your entire wall of contradictions.

    It's pretty clear just by your last statement here that even you can acknowledge alacrity warped balance. That's before you go back to your "feels" about sluggish gameplay.
    So it is a balance issue at its core. I'll admit that quickness is also a problem and something i'd also reduce significantly, but that's not within my power to do so. Only Anet can acknowledge that they've goofed hard and power crept things to absurd levels and course correct.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    In short, all pve content where alacrity is relevant, entered the game after alacrity did. So no, alacrity didn't power creep anything besides the sustained dps values at a golem, but the golem also didn't exist before alacrity so....

    Not quoting your entire wall of contradictions.

    Yeah because you came into a discussion about alacrity and literally didn't even know what it does, of course your gona downplay that. Have a good one.

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

    I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

    Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

    Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

    You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

    Thats true. He argued that 100% uptime on quickness is broken and that this level of dps boost should be only for short burst phases. I countered with the fact that modifire from quickness is not that much better then modifier from might (and definitly on same level as might+fury) but those modifires are completely fine. The fact that quickness is rarer doesnt change the fact that similar modifier is not broken.
    After anet fix the firebrand mantras there will be competition and we can start talking about nerfs.
    But in pve there will always be best option, be it dps slot, might stacker or quickness bot. You can clear raids with core necromancers as you can with firebrands/renegades.

    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity? Don't deny the fact chrono support is broken. And genious i already mentioned that mesmer can burst in pvp if they run zerk so they have options
    They are meta in both pvp and pve. Compare it to ele now. Hoe many you see in t4 fractal CM's? And in pvp ele are restricted to mediocre support only

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.
    And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

    Firebrand can match quickness.
    Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

    25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

    I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

    Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

    Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

    You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

    Thats true. He argued that 100% uptime on quickness is broken and that this level of dps boost should be only for short burst phases. I countered with the fact that modifire from quickness is not that much better then modifier from might (and definitly on same level as might+fury) but those modifires are completely fine. The fact that quickness is rarer doesnt change the fact that similar modifier is not broken.
    After anet fix the firebrand mantras there will be competition and we can start talking about nerfs.
    But in pve there will always be best option, be it dps slot, might stacker or quickness bot. You can clear raids with core necromancers as you can with firebrands/renegades.

    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity? Don't deny the fact chrono support is broken. And genious i already mentioned that mesmer can burst in pvp if they run zerk so they have options
    They are meta in both pvp and pve. Compare it to ele now. Hoe many you see in t4 fractal CM's? And in pvp ele are restricted to mediocre support only

    STOP using the ALL TRAITS ALL UTILITIES build. No class has all that available. Support build chrono does not burst (not even near what actual burst builds can do). Period.

    Yes, the class can re-spec and take different stats on gear and burst. How is that in any way relevant to the support discussion? You are just asking to not be taken serious.

    Tempest is the best healer in game, and until the last nerf weaver was top dps. No elementalist in game had access to both at the same time. Just like mesmer don't have access to all their traits when they go support build.

    EDIT: and about 4 weeks ago the CM meta was 2 weaver, 1 bs, 1 druid and 1 chrono OR 3 weaver, 1 bs, 1 chrono. So as elementalist I'd really not start barking up the fractal tree only because weaver was toned down (yet remains a strong fractal pick). Elementalists had 2-3 CM spots for years.

  • I think you are either in total denial or english is not your language.
    I clearly said mesmers are meta in every game mode and they can have the best of either side.
    They can have the best support build for pve which is 2nd to none or they can also have the best burst in pvp/wvw so they are currently top tier in every single game mode.
    I am not gonna reply you anymore, your avatar is telling the story. Enjoy your broken mesmer while you can

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    I think you are either in total denial or english is not your language.
    I clearly said mesmers are meta in every game mode and they can have the best of either side.
    They can have the best support build for pve which is 2nd to none or they can also have the best burst in pvp/wvw so they are currently top tier in every single game mode.
    I am not gonna reply you anymore, your avatar is telling the story. Enjoy your broken mesmer while you can

    Yet this discussion is about raids and support chrono.

    Sorry you just enjoy lumping everything together without sticking to the issue at hand. It's even in the title: DRUID AND CHRONO.

    Yes, my main is a mesmer, I have played her since 2 weeks after launch through all bugs and years of the class being total craap. No, she was not my main or first raid character.

    I also play 4 other classes in raids and have 23 level 80s with enough ascended gear to gear all 23 out.

    My main interest is in keeping raids balanced and fun both class wise but also group composition and management wise. I don't currently run a full static any more and the hassle which that brings is enough already.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:

    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity?

    Yes, many classes can upkeep might, but those classes break 25k dps. Chrono upkeeping quickness/alacrity doesn't break 10k dps. So the comparison is unfounded. Find me another class that specs for boon support (not healing) while having 9k dps, and Ill show you a class that should have quickness + alacrity.

    But a class like firebrand, that can upkeep quickness with 25k dps, doesn't deserve alacrity without lowering its dps down to 10k.

  • @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    I think you are either in total denial or english is not your language.
    I clearly said mesmers are meta in every game mode and they can have the best of either side.
    They can have the best support build for pve which is 2nd to none or they can also have the best burst in pvp/wvw so they are currently top tier in every single game mode.
    I am not gonna reply you anymore, your avatar is telling the story. Enjoy your broken mesmer while you can

    K bye.

    Not quite sure how much discussion you can add when you come to fractal/raid thread complaining about WvW/PvP.

    Back to the topic. If firebrand got fixed and firebrand/renegade is a thing, which one of them should replace druid in healing without significant dps loss?

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    In short, all pve content where alacrity is relevant, entered the game after alacrity did. So no, alacrity didn't power creep anything besides the sustained dps values at a golem, but the golem also didn't exist before alacrity so....

    Not quoting your entire wall of contradictions.

    It's pretty clear just by your last statement here that even you can acknowledge alacrity warped balance. That's before you go back to your "feels" about sluggish gameplay.
    So it is a balance issue at its core. I'll admit that quickness is also a problem and something i'd also reduce significantly, but that's not within my power to do so. Only Anet can acknowledge that they've goofed hard and power crept things to absurd levels and course correct.

    Hurr i am not here to comment on the discusion you had with @thrag.9740 but there is a thing that bothers me:

    You talking about absurd power creep, i honestly just see more fun mechanic that are added in game. TBH if anet really followed your advices i would probably leave the game and so a lot of other players would do. You basically are suggesting to remove fun mechanics that gives more depth to the gameplay (yeah even having to click 1 more button is depth, cause if you add 5 new mech now you press 5 more buttons! guess what: is what we are doing in this game). I don't really want to get back to 4 warrior 1 mesmer, or 4 ele and 1 mesmer. That was absolutely boring (it made me stop playing gw2 only to come back with the expansion).

    It's obvious that you have sometimes to tweak a thing or two, maybe some mechanics get out of hand. But hell removing some of them totally...would just make playing certain classes really boring. You had 10 tool, now in name of "balance" you have 5 ? Just wth.

    Instead give classes that are low on tools some more of them. Balance new encounters around what you are creating. Honestly raid for example are fun, the difficulty is not absurd, you can even pug them! And honestly in raid you can really play anything you want as long as you know the encounter. Sadly the last part in the community is what is missing the most. I've met players with A LOT of LI that don't know a sloth shroom pattern for instance.

    I dont know who upvoted you for the really crass and absurd false equivocation and slippery slope but really ?
    What i said had nothing to do with being anywhere close to commiting hate crimes or cleansing people based on their orientation. To go there is an even grosser mistake than what the balance team did by introducing alacrity as a shared status and then shifting it to a boon.

    Now then, it's pretty painfully clear that those here who dont see that alacrity should be personal only do not grasp how drastically it has warped gameplay, even when by their own admission it went from "Slow and 1 button" (which is hyperbolic) to "Fast". The absurd notion that i do not know what alacrity does because i utilized the how its described via the in-game tool tips is also the worst demonstration of appeal to an unqualified authority i've ever seen. Just because i wrote it in the basic sense does not mean i do not understand how it functions, it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.

    Alacrity is a gameplay issue and one that could quite easily be rememdied by limiting it to being a personal only boon. Sharing alacrity is a mistake as it does blow power out of the water because the cooldowns are there to intentionally gate the power of skills, changing those cooldowns however small you may claim has an reprecussion on how powerful skills can be and should be.

  • @TexZero.7910 said:

    @polvere.2805 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    In short, all pve content where alacrity is relevant, entered the game after alacrity did. So no, alacrity didn't power creep anything besides the sustained dps values at a golem, but the golem also didn't exist before alacrity so....

    Not quoting your entire wall of contradictions.

    It's pretty clear just by your last statement here that even you can acknowledge alacrity warped balance. That's before you go back to your "feels" about sluggish gameplay.
    So it is a balance issue at its core. I'll admit that quickness is also a problem and something i'd also reduce significantly, but that's not within my power to do so. Only Anet can acknowledge that they've goofed hard and power crept things to absurd levels and course correct.

    Hurr i am not here to comment on the discusion you had with @thrag.9740 but there is a thing that bothers me:

    You talking about absurd power creep, i honestly just see more fun mechanic that are added in game. TBH if anet really followed your advices i would probably leave the game and so a lot of other players would do. You basically are suggesting to remove fun mechanics that gives more depth to the gameplay (yeah even having to click 1 more button is depth, cause if you add 5 new mech now you press 5 more buttons! guess what: is what we are doing in this game). I don't really want to get back to 4 warrior 1 mesmer, or 4 ele and 1 mesmer. That was absolutely boring (it made me stop playing gw2 only to come back with the expansion).

    It's obvious that you have sometimes to tweak a thing or two, maybe some mechanics get out of hand. But hell removing some of them totally...would just make playing certain classes really boring. You had 10 tool, now in name of "balance" you have 5 ? Just wth.

    Instead give classes that are low on tools some more of them. Balance new encounters around what you are creating. Honestly raid for example are fun, the difficulty is not absurd, you can even pug them! And honestly in raid you can really play anything you want as long as you know the encounter. Sadly the last part in the community is what is missing the most. I've met players with A LOT of LI that don't know a sloth shroom pattern for instance.

    I dont know who upvoted you for the really crass and absurd false equivocation and slippery slope but really ?
    What i said had nothing to do with being anywhere close to commiting hate crimes or cleansing people based on their orientation. To go there is an even grosser mistake than what the balance team did by introducing alacrity as a shared status and then shifting it to a boon.

    Now then, it's pretty painfully clear that those here who dont see that alacrity should be personal only do not grasp how drastically it has warped gameplay, even when by their own admission it went from "Slow and 1 button" (which is hyperbolic) to "Fast". The absurd notion that i do not know what alacrity does because i utilized the how its described via the in-game tool tips is also the worst demonstration of appeal to an unqualified authority i've ever seen. Just because i wrote it in the basic sense does not mean i do not understand how it functions, it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.

    Alacrity is a gameplay issue and one that could quite easily be rememdied by limiting it to being a personal only boon. Sharing alacrity is a mistake as it does blow power out of the water because the cooldowns are there to intentionally gate the power of skills, changing those cooldowns however small you may claim has an reprecussion on how powerful skills can be and should be.

    If you remove might from the game many builds that were viable are usless (most condition builds). Compositions also count 25 might.

    As fir nicenikeshoes question i feel like neither. If you run this composition you go for maximum dps. Would probably be diferent if one of them could heal 10 players

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭

    @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    I think you are either in total denial or english is not your language.
    I clearly said mesmers are meta in every game mode and they can have the best of either side.
    They can have the best support build for pve which is 2nd to none or they can also have the best burst in pvp/wvw so they are currently top tier in every single game mode.
    I am not gonna reply you anymore, your avatar is telling the story. Enjoy your broken mesmer while you can

    K bye.

    Not quite sure how much discussion you can add when you come to fractal/raid thread complaining about WvW/PvP.

    Back to the topic. If firebrand got fixed and firebrand/renegade is a thing, which one of them should replace druid in healing without significant dps loss?

    Well i would go for renegade when they could just add the stats condi dmg/condi duration/healpower/boonduration. And maybe buff renegade alac a little so that he dont need to spam his energy to uphold it.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.
    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown

    no, it wasn't accurate, and people will continue to read this thread, read your numbers, and have inaccurate information.

    For any inexperienced players reading this, let me be clear, alacrity removes 20% of a skills cooldown, if you have it for the entire time that skill is on cool down. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity).

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.
    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown

    no, it wasn't accurate, and people will continue to read this thread, read your numbers, and have inaccurate information.

    For any inexperienced players reading this, let me be clear, alacrity removes 20% of a skills cooldown, if you have it for the entire time that skill is on cool down. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity).

    Right there in the wiki article you linked > Alacrity is a boon unique to mesmers specialized as chronomancers and revenants with the Salvation and the Renegade specializations. It increases the rate at which skills recharge by 25%

    So yes it's what i said. Sorry you are so particularly distraught over this language barrier but the wiki even says what i've said.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    Alacrity is a boon unique to mesmers specialized as chronomancers and revenants with the Salvation and the Renegade specializations. It increases the rate at which skills recharge by 25% , therefore making skills recharge in 80% of the original time. This includes skills triggered by traits like Illusionary Inspiration Illusionary Inspiration, but not internal cooldowns of traits like Confounding Suggestions Confounding Suggestions.

    Simply put:
    Your recharge rate is sped up (by 25%) which leads to skills being available sooner (20% faster).

    Skills recharge 1.25 seconds of their cooldown instead of the base 1 second per second.

    Thus a skill which takes 10 seconds recharges as follows:
    WITHOUT ALACRITY - WITH ALACRITY
    0 - 0
    1 - 1.25
    2 - 2.5
    3 - 3.75
    4 - 5
    5 - 6.25
    6 - 7.5
    7 - 8.75
    8 - 10 (DONE)
    9
    10 (DONE)

    It can be easy to confuse recharge rate with actual skill cool down reduction. The terms are not synonymous though. It actually goes to show that alacrity's effect on skill cool downs is a tad lower than the tool tip might suggest. Overall it remains a very powerful boon even after multiple nerfs. Mostly due to making rotations easier (or at all possible) and mistakes less problematic. Especially for long cool downs of over 60 seconds the reduction in cool down duration, which adds up to multiple seconds, can mean the difference between a skill being up again or not (say Spellbreaker Winds of Disenchantment on Dhuum which need alacrity to be up for each subsequent boon rip).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity? Don't deny the fact chrono support is broken.

    That's not an argument that chrono support is broken. That's an argument that we should have more sources for perma quickness and alacrity
    After all, if perma 25 might is okay, because there are more than one professions that can give it, then perma quickness/alacrity now is not fine only because there are not more sources of it. Because, functionally, there's no difference of impact from those boons at all. If one is OP, they all are. If one is not OP, then they all aren't.

    And genious i already mentioned that mesmer can burst in pvp if they run zerk so they have options

    Yeah, definitely, a viable build in PvP is an alternative option to a build in PvE. Right [/sarcasm]

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity? Don't deny the fact chrono support is broken.

    That's not an argument that chrono support is broken. That's an argument that we should have more sources for perma quickness and alacrity
    After all, if perma 25 might is okay, because there are more than one professions that can give it, then perma quickness/alacrity now is not fine only because there are not more sources of it. Because, functionally, there's no difference of impact from those boons at all. If one is OP, they all are. If one is not OP, then they all aren't.

    Even though I partially agree with you, is this really what we want from the perspective of long term class design? Professions doing the exact same thing just with different coloured animations.

    I would really hate if Anet approach to balance becomes copying boon application from one profession unto others (which seems is where we are going).

    Boons are essentially a fundamental and core part of this game, contrary to their name "boon". And I don't think making professions same in terms of boon applications is smart choice in the long run

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Many professions can have perma 25 stacks of might with trait/build/runes combination.
    How many professions can have perma quickness/alacrity? Don't deny the fact chrono support is broken.

    That's not an argument that chrono support is broken. That's an argument that we should have more sources for perma quickness and alacrity
    After all, if perma 25 might is okay, because there are more than one professions that can give it, then perma quickness/alacrity now is not fine only because there are not more sources of it. Because, functionally, there's no difference of impact from those boons at all. If one is OP, they all are. If one is not OP, then they all aren't.

    Even though I partially agree with you, is this really what we want from the perspective of long term class design? Professions doing the exact same thing just with different coloured animations.

    Apparently, yes, seeing the people's reaction to chrono doing something different than everyone else.

    There would definitely be differences, though, seeing as every potential alternative to chrono has either higher dps or healing. There would need to be some tradeoffs.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.
    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown

    no, it wasn't accurate, and people will continue to read this thread, read your numbers, and have inaccurate information.

    For any inexperienced players reading this, let me be clear, alacrity removes 20% of a skills cooldown, if you have it for the entire time that skill is on cool down. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity).

    Right there in the wiki article you linked > Alacrity is a boon unique to mesmers specialized as chronomancers and revenants with the Salvation and the Renegade specializations. It increases the rate at which skills recharge by 25%

    So yes it's what i said. Sorry you are so particularly distraught over this language barrier but the wiki even says what i've said.

    Increasing the rate of recharge by 25%is not the same as reducing the cool down with 25%

    Imagine a trait which increases the rate of recharge by 100% the cool down would then just be halved not completely gone

    Except i never stated reducing anything. I said Removing, but this is getting absurdly pedantic because people need to feel superior when their own phrasing proves how game warping alacrity is at a base level even before you consider sharing it.

    It should be personal only to restrict how drastically it warps balance for every class (except thieves because for them it's only half as effective)

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    I have written a post about this and healing firebrand is actually viable in fractals and can take on the druid role. However, you cannot expect it to replace the chronomancer, as it doesnt give alacrity.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard.

    Sure, that damage is way too OP [/sarcasm]

    DPS-Chrono isn't actually that bad with a benchmark of avg. 32.000 dps. Stuff like Reaper on the other hand is rejoicing finally beating the 30.000-border. You can also switch to Mirage which is also quite powerful and whose dps-benchmarks actually translate better into actual raid-scenarios due to losing no time due to Mirage's dodge-mechanics and due to having more bursty conditions. Sure, it's not really broken, but that's not the area where Chrono/Mesmer is broken anyway. Chrono is absolutely broken as support.

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I agree, chrono is the only god tier class in the game currently.

    It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

    ...and that's just wrong. Other builds are fairly balanced. Chrono on the other hand brings:

    • every single boon the game offers and the only class with access to both alacrity and quickness,
    • ridiculously powerful defiance-bar-damage through Signet of Moa and various other skills, and
    • several ridiculously powerful utilities/weapon-skills (focus 5, feedback, certain wells, etc.), who are superior in regards of usability and reliability.

    Face it, Chrono as support-build is downright broken. It does nearly everything besides damage far too well. It's Chrono that is utterly broken; it's not that the other support-builds are trash. Especially usability and reliability are huge factors - the Chrono/Druid combo simply outshines other possible combinations like Renegade/Firebrand. Chrono is god-tier in terms of support.

    Well actually scourge is trash tier support actually.Its barrier isn't really enough to compensate and instant rez is nice but niche.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.
    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown

    no, it wasn't accurate, and people will continue to read this thread, read your numbers, and have inaccurate information.

    For any inexperienced players reading this, let me be clear, alacrity removes 20% of a skills cooldown, if you have it for the entire time that skill is on cool down. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity).

    Right there in the wiki article you linked > Alacrity is a boon unique to mesmers specialized as chronomancers and revenants with the Salvation and the Renegade specializations. It increases the rate at which skills recharge by 25%

    So yes it's what i said. Sorry you are so particularly distraught over this language barrier but the wiki even says what i've said.

    Increasing the rate of recharge by 25%is not the same as reducing the cool down with 25%

    Imagine a trait which increases the rate of recharge by 100% the cool down would then just be halved not completely gone

    Except i never stated reducing anything. I said Removing, but this is getting absurdly pedantic because people need to feel superior when their own phrasing proves how game warping alacrity is at a base level even before you consider sharing it.

    It should be personal only to restrict how drastically it warps balance for every class (except thieves because for them it's only half as effective)

    Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%.

    It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong.

    And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The main problem with "support" in this game is that it triples the dps of the team. To my knowledge there is no other game with such a difference in damage, between with-buffs and without-buffs. This essentially means that bosses need to be created with this triple dps in mind (otherwise they'll melt instantly)

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    it also does not change the fact that what i stated was accurate.
    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown

    no, it wasn't accurate, and people will continue to read this thread, read your numbers, and have inaccurate information.

    For any inexperienced players reading this, let me be clear, alacrity removes 20% of a skills cooldown, if you have it for the entire time that skill is on cool down. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity).

    Right there in the wiki article you linked > Alacrity is a boon unique to mesmers specialized as chronomancers and revenants with the Salvation and the Renegade specializations. It increases the rate at which skills recharge by 25%

    So yes it's what i said. Sorry you are so particularly distraught over this language barrier but the wiki even says what i've said.

    Increasing the rate of recharge by 25%is not the same as reducing the cool down with 25%

    Imagine a trait which increases the rate of recharge by 100% the cool down would then just be halved not completely gone

    Except i never stated reducing anything. I said Removing, but this is getting absurdly pedantic because people need to feel superior when their own phrasing proves how game warping alacrity is at a base level even before you consider sharing it.

    It should be personal only to restrict how drastically it warps balance for every class (except thieves because for them it's only half as effective)

    Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%.

    It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong.

    And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant.

    The fact that he continues to say he was right, shows that he did not misspeak, he literally just doesn't know what alacrity does.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%.

    It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong.

    And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant.

    Oh okay let me try this then.

    Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%".

    Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ?

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