Can WvW server be made not pay to win. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can WvW server be made not pay to win.

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Answers

  • @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

    Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

    thief..same have 2
    mesmer...same have 2
    warriar...same have 1
    Guardian...same have 1
    engineer...same have 2
    elementalist have 1

    So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

    Actually, I was thinking you haven't play in a while, came back and found you didn't know how to fight the new classes

    This is largely true because I have no access to the skills on my own toons...so I can only guess what they did or spend hours researching builds and imagining how they can be used. In fact the class design is so bad I thought for sure people were hacking. I send them a tell and they point me at something completely ridiculously OP.

    Further because of this I have no idea what a hack looks like. Yesterday I tried to kill the new thief derivative in a circle at a camp. Tried and tried for a couple minutes on an alt "free" account using a thief. (I win most fights on my free account thief BTW.) With this character I did not hit her once. She repeated a skill over and over that prevented me from hitting her. ...probably repeated the skill 50 times... Finally I just left and she laughed at me. Hack or expansion skill...no idea.

    Not allowing full access to the expansion classes in WvW creates many more problems for ANET than the few bucks it makes off me.

    lol yeah I definitely have screenshots of whispers from this dude claiming I was hacking. Was a good laugh

  • Iris Ng.9845Iris Ng.9845 Member ✭✭✭

    @Junkpile.7439 said:

    @Iris Ng.9845 said:
    The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.

    What!!!! You can only use vanilla specs in EotM? Holy kitten anet. That is awesome.

    There is no one in EoTM so if you so wish, you can even run naked, no trait lines.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A vanilla gw2 in EotM would be awesome. But I'm not holding my breath

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    1.) You need cleaner code.
    2.) You need better programmers.
    Possibly both...as 2 causes 1 to not occur.

    3) You need a less whiny, entitled, freeloading population base.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    I play core traitlines on my main despite having access to both expansions.

    You get a lot of nice stuff from the new professions, but usually you have to give up something equally useful.

    All is vain.

  • I wish life wasn't pay to win. Having to spend money to have a nice TV or a fast car is so BS. Why should those clowns with jobs have better stuff than the bums down the street? Why is the US military so much more powerful than that of say...Romania(just picking a random country)? It's just so unfair.

    That's more or less what I hear when threads like this come up. Not everybody can have everything for nothing. It's just how the world is.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This must be the OP’s first MMO or perhaps game in general. Expansions always adds things that those who only have the base game will not have access to. It’s also generally expected that players continue to purchase expansions.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2018

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    It should all be free
    Anet employees can get food stamps to live just like Wal*Mart employees

    Capitalism is a great system but then they brought it to muh games! You mean I gotta pay?!

  • @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

  • Oh and for those that are believe its about money.
    I had spent a bunch of money on in game purchases that are silly. Outfits. harvesting toys. Transfers. Bag expansions. Dyes. character slots.
    Way way way more than the cost of a game.
    I was a real good customer and felt pretty darned good about ANET other than usual frustrations with bad class designs.
    Then they pull this kitten.

    How much have I spent since they downgraded my character sand tried to force the money out of me? ZERO. for the longest time...then I said OK this one time. NO MORE!
    I'll never spend another cent on ANET as long as they are trying to force it out of me. And yes I'm a libertarian. This is all about me feeling that ANET is manipulating me to extract money from me and reducing my paid for account to the level of a free account. In fact the free account is better because it offers more freedom. Say I have 1 account with 14 characters on it. I better restrict my speech because I could lose 14 toons if I'm naughty. 14 free accounts I only can lose 1 toon max. Be the biggest baddest naughty person...cost 1 toon I can replace in a few days.

    You HAVE to remember the guy that just bought the game yesterday paid the same I did! ALL THAT PLAYING TIME....blah blah bla...again dumb argument.
    Accounts are free now with nearly the same abilities I have (less bag storage is all really). So do they ever have to upgrade? So they get all that play time...don't need to upgrade. How does that "I owe them an upgrade purchase" argument go again that doesn't sound silly in this light?

    How do I know. I have 2 free accounts just to log in and stomp paid for account people. (I stomp them because most people suck at pvp.) I lose to good people not because of skill but lack of access to mobility, CC, stealth that are much more plentiful on expanded characters. But they have to be pretty good. Not great but pretty good. I know a REALLY good player because they stomp me hard and that never happened before the split. I'm pretty sure I'm better than I was before now too.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Oh and for those that are believe its about money.
    I had spent a bunch of money on in game purchases that are silly. Outfits. harvesting toys. Transfers. Bag expansions. Dyes. character slots.
    Way way way more than the cost of a game.
    I was a real good customer and felt pretty darned good about ANET other than usual frustrations with bad class designs.
    Then they pull this kitten.

    How much have I spent since they downgraded my character sand tried to force the money out of me? ZERO. for the longest time...then I said OK this one time. NO MORE!
    I'll never spend another cent on ANET as long as they are trying to force it out of me. And yes I'm a libertarian. This is all about me feeling that ANET is manipulating me to extract money from me and reducing my paid for account to the level of a free account. In fact the free account is better because it offers more freedom. Say I have 1 account with 14 characters on it. I better restrict my speech because I could lose 14 toons if I'm naughty. 14 free accounts I only can lose 1 toon max. Be the biggest baddest naughty person...cost 1 toon I can replace in a few days.

    You HAVE to remember the guy that just bought the game yesterday paid the same I did! ALL THAT PLAYING TIME....blah blah bla...again dumb argument.
    Accounts are free now with nearly the same abilities I have (less bag storage is all really). So do they ever have to upgrade? So they get all that play time...don't need to upgrade. How does that "I owe them an upgrade purchase" argument go again that doesn't sound silly in this light?

    How do I know. I have 2 free accounts just to log in and stomp paid for account people. (I stomp them because most people suck at pvp.) I lose to good people not because of skill but lack of access to mobility, CC, stealth that are much more plentiful on expanded characters. But they have to be pretty good. Not great but pretty good. I know a REALLY good player because they stomp me hard and that never happened before the split. I'm pretty sure I'm better than I was before now too.

    Really, what is the problem then? You got what you paid for. If you don't like a company's business practices, no one is forcing you to spend time and money on them. And you get to use free accounts to fight the censorship! I really enjoy how this game isn't engineered to make you feel like you gotta grind through a ton of RNG or spend money to skip the RNG-spam like so many Korean MMOs, but that's just me.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    Well so you want base game to only play with base game players well thats a way to kill off a game I guess.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    I really enjoy how this game isn't engineered to make you feel like you gotta grind through a ton of RNG or spend money to skip the RNG-spam like so many Korean MMOs, but that's just me.

    Precisely. Perhaps there's another game I haven't played or heard of that's cheaper but as far as I know in the MMO market this game is as low cost as it gets. You buy the game, buy the xpacs and you're done.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    There are PVP servers in WoW that have nothing to do with level based. When I played WoW I was wrecked by higher level players. Your example is flawed.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    Mind you, you still pay subs to wow, right? If you don't you can't. So tell me how is $15 per mount is not P2W but a$15-20 expac is one?

    Expacs are the way that Anets easrns money, you want them to juts give up on it? Or would you prefer to pay subs to access any skill, trait line, elit scpe? I bet Anet would be happy to introduce such thing( like ESO) if there are more players wiling to go for it.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Core is still viable as I have friends (who have both expansions) who run core in WvW

    1 runs a guardian symbol build (not meta) that can wreck a lot of PoF and HoT classes.
    1 runs a core ranger that does very well

    Other classes that are viable are:

    sword thief
    Core warrior (see a few of these while roaming and they are still in a good spot)
    I will sometimes pull out my old P/P core engi and run with it. Still does quite well surprisingly. Its far from the best condi build, however it has a positive k/d rate.

    Once you know how the newer classes work, it's not as big of a deal. Just need to learn to play against them.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
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  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    It is P2W, but at the same time, the game doesn't have a subscription model.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2018

    Buying a game, or paying a subscription, is P2W since you have to do that in order to win. I certainly couldn’t win at Skyrim on the console without paying for it first. /s

  • @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    Mind you, you still pay subs to wow, right? If you don't you can't. So tell me how is $15 per mount is not P2W but a$15-20 expac is one?

    Expacs are the way that Anets easrns money, you want them to juts give up on it? Or would you prefer to pay subs to access any skill, trait line, elit scpe? I bet Anet would be happy to introduce such thing( like ESO) if there are more players wiling to go for it.

    Here a novel idea. Have your expansion pack actually have "expansion" in it not reduction. I only play WvW and PvP. What extra content did my players get? Answer: They got down graded in relation to new players. BTW...15-20 expansion pack? Where? 30 bucks for no extra content and 1 trait line for your toon. Oh you want both expansions that 45 bucks. For 1 trait line. That you now HAVE to choose to maximize your wvw toons. What a bad value. How about I just pay for the expansion part I use? Take a guess what that would be? How much did adding the player skill cost them vs new maps and story and etc. Almost nothing. Not going to pay for PVE as a PVP/WVW player. Super bad value.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

  • @Defias.1892 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    Lmao, you are ridiculous. WoW is so poor in design and has been lagging behind GW2 in terms of introducing basic QoL changes. And I say this as someone who has been loyally playing since Classic.
    1. We didn't get multi-mob tagging until WoD
    2. We didn't get a way to pay for subs/Blizzard Credit with gold until WoD patch 6.2 something
    3. World Quests a.k.a. Dynamic Events didn't happen until Legion
    In Design, WoW has been lagging behind GW2 alot, and not much has changed. Mission tables are garbage mobile games and Rep Grinds are still stupidly painful and ridiculous.

    In, PVP, if you want to play WoW F2P, you are outclassed by level 29 twinks. If you play without BFA(the latest expansion), you are outclassed by people with Azerite Gear/HoA (both extremely powerful BFA items) at level 110 PVP. Warmode (OR OPEN WORLD PVP) includes all players from level 1-120, meaning that a level 120 can continually gank lower levels. At some point, Blizzard actually equalized all players, but when a level 80 twink started killing max level players, people complained and Blizzard reverted that scaling.

    But I mean, I'm guessing you haven't played WoW in a while, or else you would complain about having to spend $15 in addition to $50 for the expansion and call WoW P2W

    You are arguing two different broken things in 2 different games. WoW has terrible level based power differences and gear differences which GW2 does not. GW2 has terrible class design...even worse than Wow because ALL classes are inferior if you don't buy the expansion. If they screwed up class balance in GW2 I wouldn't care because I have all but dragon hunter. If Dragon hunter would dominate all classes then the game would die quickly.

    F2P - not applicable because my GW2 account was paid for. I'd have 20 slots on it if not for F2P.
    In wow I'd be at level 60 with the original account and could twink my level 29 too. So then I'd be exactly the same as a guy who bought ALL the expansions. Because I only WvW. Open world PvP does not apply either. They unequalized things in WoW after equalization - Why? Bad players like pay to win! And... most players are bad. Which is why I win 90% of my fights on my free accounts! So why am I complaining then if I win 90% of the time? Because I want fair fights so I can compete against my peers.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind. Yes you have to pay to get the xpacs yes the hot and pof elites are stronger than the core specs. In that sense it's p2w. But the difference in the degree of p2w between a game like GW2 and a game like Archeage for instance is enormous. If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game. If not suck it up and buy the xpacs and move on with your life because they're not going to set up a legacy server just to save you money why would they?

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    Other players with better skills is not new content. Therte is NO new content for a WvW player. That is why. Period end of story. With that logic they could have just removed skills from non-upgraded accounts and then you'd be saying I was playing new content because I bought back my skills....get a clue.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    Other players with better skills is not new content. Therte is NO new content for a WvW player. That is why. Period end of story. With that logic they could have just removed skills from non-upgraded accounts and then you'd be saying I was playing new content because I bought back my skills....get a clue.

    And yet the new skills, elite spec trait lines, stat combos, and HoT-related additions to wvw ARE new content that you're complaining about having to play against. In the time you've spent arguing about this you could've purchased the expansions or at least recognized how much free new content (skills and traits) you've gotten on core classes from balance patches (core roaming guardian is pretty strong right now and you got it all for free). End.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game.

    If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • So here is the deal. Its only new content if you would find it interesting. I don't. So all it really is to me is a pain the the ___. The expansion because I have no interest in it is not an upgrade but a lesser downgrade. My choices are downgrade in class power or downgrade in choice. I won't complain if they redesign "elite" classes where 1/2 the people revert back to classic ones because now they are choices instead of a clear upgrade.

    There is no upgrade for me. Just choices of downgrades.

  • @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game.

    If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2

    Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version.
    I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now.
    Its like buying a ticket on a boat. You get 1/2 across the river and they ask for the same amount again. If you don't pay people start calling you a free loader.

    The game is supposed to make money off its transactions - ANET has actually lost money with me because I have done no transactions since they did this. I have 12 or 14 toons on my paid for account (I lose count because I have at least 4 free ones too.) How much is a character slot? Well now its 0 because you make an account.

    Previous to this I had bought 14700 gems. Thats like 175 bucks of gems. Further my original account was a digital deluxe.
    ANET throws away its good customers is the lesson they should learn.

    I'm such a freeloader!

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version.
    I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now.

    Sure you got extra value. You spent your money on the gem store stuff. Someone who now buys the latest version doesn't have those things you paid for. Stop saying that a free account has the same stuff as you because it doesn't. It is a ridiculous argument. You got what you paid for. They got what they paid for. And players who paid for the expansion also got what they paid for.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game.

    If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2

    Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version.
    I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now.
    Its like buying a ticket on a boat. You get 1/2 across the river and they ask for the same amount again. If you don't pay people start calling you a free loader.

    The game is supposed to make money off its transactions - ANET has actually lost money with me because I have done no transactions since they did this. I have 12 or 14 toons on my paid for account (I lose count because I have at least 4 free ones too.) How much is a character slot? Well now its 0 because you make an account.

    Previous to this I had bought 14700 gems. Thats like 175 bucks of gems. Further my original account was a digital deluxe.
    ANET throws away its good customers is the lesson they should learn.

    I'm such a freeloader!

    Saying you didn't get any extra value, when you have something longer is factually false. Every MMO, every single one, has barriers to entry. It's hard to start MMOs later, because everyone is ahead of you. Ahead of you in skill, gold, achievement points, whatever. Even though it's relatively easy to catch up on this game, it's not all that easy. For example, new players starting today aren't going to roll into WvW with ascended gear, which you likely have. This gives you an advantage they don't have.

    Furthermore, removing barriers to entry is very important for MMOs, because all MMOs have natural attrition. People leave over time. They leave because life gets busy. Or a change happens they don't like. Or another game comes out they like better. Or their friends don't play any more. Or they get sick. Natural attrition means MMOs need to attract new blood to the game and one way to do it is to give people who are coming in late (who are therefore at a disadvantage) a reason to try the game in the first place.

    You're so worried about you getting ripped off, imagine how badly ripped off you'd feel if there were never any new players at all, because the barrier to entry was too high and there suddenly weren't enough people to play with. I mean I bought a VCR for $600 and five years later it was $100. That doesn't mean I was ripped off. Nor, if people were offered free DVDs with their DVD player, which I didn't get when I bought mine, would mean I'd been treated unfairly. You always pay a premium to get something earlier/faster, and you know, that's okay.

    When people complain about all the great stuff these lucky free to play players have, I always ask the same question. Would you give up all your progress, all your gold, all your achievements, all the skins you've unlocked, all the experiences you had in order to save a few bucks, and start from where they're starting? The overwhelming majority of people would say no to that.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As a separate note, whether or not Anet should or shouldn't have a power increase in expansion specs is one conversation and whether the represents pay to win, which has an existing definition that is being misused in the OP is a different question. It's not the definition of P2W, which doesn't mean that the OP doesn't have a point. The terminology being used, however, immediately muddies the water, because people in general don't consider expansions pay to win. It's hard for the rest of the argument to get traction as long as we're arguing over that term.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    As a separate note, whether or not Anet should or shouldn't have a power increase in expansion specs is one conversation and whether the represents pay to win, which has an existing definition that is being misused in the OP is a different question. It's not the definition of P2W, which doesn't mean that the OP doesn't have a point. The terminology being used, however, immediately muddies the water, because people in general don't consider expansions pay to win. It's hard for the rest of the argument to get traction as long as we're arguing over that term.

    Dictionary definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

    I believe the validity of the term "pay to win" in this instance depends on how literally one interprets the language itself. I take a more literal approach with this term and say that anything that requires some sort of payment in order to have even a slightly better chance of winning can be called "pay to win." This is because strictly speaking you are paying money in order to have a better chance of winning even if that chance isn't 100 percent. The difference between how pay to win a given game is is therefore always a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind. In this particular case I think expansions like the ones Anet has released, where virtually everything new is stronger than everything old, is an obvious albeit forgivable form of pay to win because the people who pay the money to get the expansions will have a very significant competitive advantage over the people who don't in both PvP and PvE.

    I think it's also important to consider the likely intent behind the purchases in these discussions as well. What does someone who buys the expansions for PvP/WvW buy them for? Probably the elite specs and perhaps gliding in WvW. What is the intent behind that decision? Presumably to give themselves a better chance of winning than they think they would otherwise have. So for instance someone who picks up PoF just to have Spellbreaker for WvW is probably doing so because they think they'll have a better chance of winning than if they stuck with vanilla warrior etc etc.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    As a separate note, whether or not Anet should or shouldn't have a power increase in expansion specs is one conversation and whether the represents pay to win, which has an existing definition that is being misused in the OP is a different question. It's not the definition of P2W, which doesn't mean that the OP doesn't have a point. The terminology being used, however, immediately muddies the water, because people in general don't consider expansions pay to win. It's hard for the rest of the argument to get traction as long as we're arguing over that term.

    Dictionary definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

    I believe the validity of the term "pay to win" in this instance depends on how literally one interprets the language itself. I take a more literal approach with this term and say that anything that requires some sort of payment in order to have even a slightly better chance of winning can be called "pay to win." This is because strictly speaking you are paying money in order to have a better chance of winning even if that chance isn't 100 percent. The difference between how pay to win a given game is is therefore always a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind. In this particular case I think expansions like the ones Anet has released, where virtually everything new is stronger than everything old, is an obvious albeit forgivable form of pay to win because the people who pay the money to get the expansions will have a very significant competitive advantage over the people who don't in both PvP and PvE.

    I think it's also important to consider the likely intent behind the purchases in these discussions as well. What does someone who buys the expansions for PvP/WvW buy them for? Probably the elite specs and perhaps gliding in WvW. What is the intent behind that decision? Presumably to give themselves a better chance of winning than they think they would otherwise have. So for instance someone who picks up PoF just to have Spellbreaker for WvW is probably doing so because they think they'll have a better chance of winning than if they stuck with vanilla warrior etc etc.

    Language isn't literal. I'm not talking about a dictionary definition. Certain games were labeled pay to win because you had to constantly shell out money in their cash shop to stay relevant. We knew what they were and what it meant. There was no guess work. That's what pay to win means. You're interpreting those words literally but it had a meaning.

    No one ever once in 15 years that I can remember ever said that the game is pay to win because you have to buy expansions. That thought process never existed, even though expansions gave you more options. You had to buy Factions to get a Rit or a Sin, you couldn't play them in Guild Wars 1 without buying factions but no one called Factions pay to win. It's just misuse of a term.

    No one calls WoW pay to win, even though every expansion that comes out allows you to beat people who don't have it. Just the way it is. But people don't use the term.

    By interpreting it literally you're simply removing it's meaning. By your definition I can find pay to win elements in every single MMO in existence, which one would think would limit the usefulness of the term. By using it to describe all MMOs, how are you actually adding to the conversation?

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine complaining about not being able to be up to date with builds and gear in WoW when not even buying an expansion

    That's the same level of this discussion. Your point doesn't work, because you don't partake in any new releases, you don't get to be up to date because you don't even want to be

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    my gut feel:

    1. all games are pay to win
    2. you must grind, in one way or another, to get the best gear
    3. in all things gw2 50% coordination 30% skill 20% gear.

    no game that goes away from this system lasts.

    all existing games are pay to win, but you can without without paying if you're patient. in this case, anet need only allow expansions to be bought via gems and we're set. since ppl use irl money to buy gems and sell gems to get in game gold. inversely people with gold could buy gems to buy the expansions. in this way - irl money is given to anet in one way or another.

    make it happen

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Great example.
    I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.
    You made my case.
    Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.
    Can't go on expanded questing.
    PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.
    Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

    So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

    Mind you, you still pay subs to wow, right? If you don't you can't. So tell me how is $15 per mount is not P2W but a$15-20 expac is one?

    Expacs are the way that Anets easrns money, you want them to juts give up on it? Or would you prefer to pay subs to access any skill, trait line, elit scpe? I bet Anet would be happy to introduce such thing( like ESO) if there are more players wiling to go for it.

    Here a novel idea. Have your expansion pack actually have "expansion" in it not reduction. I only play WvW and PvP. What extra content did my players get? Answer: They got down graded in relation to new players. BTW...15-20 expansion pack? Where? 30 bucks for no extra content and 1 trait line for your toon. Oh you want both expansions that 45 bucks. For 1 trait line. That you now HAVE to choose to maximize your wvw toons. What a bad value. How about I just pay for the expansion part I use? Take a guess what that would be? How much did adding the player skill cost them vs new maps and story and etc. Almost nothing. Not going to pay for PVE as a PVP/WVW player. Super bad value.

    You seem to miss something so i'll help you out.

    You speak that the "expansions" only provide 1 trait line. For someone that WvW's or PvP's (I personally main WvW), it's up to the player to look into the expansion and decide if they would get their monies worth based on what they do. You chose to purchase it knowing as a PvP'er/WvW'er who doesnt so any stories, gliding, mounting or PvE to buy it anyway. That now makes your argument pointless. Its like buying a new 60" Samsung smart TV, despite you watch TV for maybe 30 minutes/day, then complaining about how bad value it was based on your own poor decision.

    "How about I just pay for the expansion part I use?"

    This kind of cracked me up a bit i admit. Its like someone complaining about needing to buy a bucket of fried chicken just for the skin and ranting about it. It's a valid complaint, however it's also one that cannot be taken seriously. Ever hear the term "taking the good with the bad"? This is also going to boil down to "bad value based on your own poor decision". Its not Anet's fault for these, it's the players.

    Edited for grammar.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Language isn't literal.

    "Concrete" is perhaps the better word. And yes it can be. If we can readily identify a semantic principle underlying a particular phrase such as "pay to win" we can extrapolate that principle and apply it consistently wherever the principle conditions are met.

    I'm not talking about a dictionary definition. Certain games were labeled pay to win because you had to constantly shell out money in their cash shop to stay relevant. We knew what they were and what it meant. There was no guess work. That's what pay to win means. You're interpreting those words literally but it had a meaning.

    But that's entirely arbitrary. Exactly how much money does one have to "shell out" before it's pay to win? one hundred dollars? two hundred? one thousand? one million? To some people ten thousand dollars might seem a reasonable expense to pay to be viable in a video game to others three hundred might seem unreasonable but in both cases they're paying money to have a better chance of winning. The dollar amount is therefore irrelevant.

    No one ever once in 15 years that I can remember ever said that the game is pay to win because you have to buy expansions. That thought process never existed, even though expansions gave you more options. You had to buy Factions to get a Rit or a Sin, you couldn't play them in Guild Wars 1 without buying factions but no one called Factions pay to win. It's just misuse of a term.

    If in principle something is called "pay to win" because they have to "shell out money" to some degree or another in order to stay competitive then in principle all MMO games that sell expansions that offer clear advantages to those who buy them are engaging in "pay to win" to some extent or another. You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line in the sand to suit your own personal level of purchasing power. For you the usual cost of an expansion (60 dollars) might be nothing to spend on a video game but as I said earlier for others ten thousand dollars is nothing to spend on a video game. Would you call their spending habits "pay to win" and yours not? What is the difference except in nominal cost?

    No one calls WoW pay to win, even though every expansion that comes out allows you to beat people who don't have it. Just the way it is. But people don't use the term.

    Then they're being logically inconsistent and drawing a convenient arbitrary line in the sand that suits their own level of purchasing power. They can afford the cost of the expansions and so they have no issues with paying for them but they're still paying for a clear advantage over someone who doesn't buy them whether they realize it or not. In the case of GW2 the advantage of those who buy the expansions versus those who do not is enormous. Just because you can afford to pay for that advantage doesn't make it any less of an advantage. A rose by any other name.

    By interpreting it literally you're simply removing it's meaning. By your definition I can find pay to win elements in every single MMO in existence, which one would think would limit the usefulness of the term. By using it to describe all MMOs, how are you actually adding to the conversation?

    I'm not removing its meaning I'm simply removing its arbitrary boundaries and applying it consistently across the board wherever I think the principle conditions are met.

    Indeed all MMOs I've played have been pay to win to some extent or another. GW2 included. The difference between games is the degree to which are they pay to win and the nominal cost of the buy in so to speak. I can afford the cost of the buy in for gw2 I cannot afford the buy in cost of a game like BDO or AA where it might cost thousands of dollars to be competitive but then there are games like EVE where I've heard that some people have been willing to drop tens of thousands of dollars to be competitive. It's all pay to win but it exists on a spectrum. Relative to other games the buy in for gw2 is much more affordable for someone like me but I'm still paying money on a regular basis to stay competitive.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Language isn't literal.

    "Concrete" is perhaps the better word. And yes it can be. If we can readily identify a semantic principle underlying a particular phrase such as "pay to win" we can extrapolate that principle and apply it consistently wherever the principle conditions are met.

    I'm not talking about a dictionary definition. Certain games were labeled pay to win because you had to constantly shell out money in their cash shop to stay relevant. We knew what they were and what it meant. There was no guess work. That's what pay to win means. You're interpreting those words literally but it had a meaning.

    But that's entirely arbitrary. Exactly how much money does one have to "shell out" before it's pay to win? one hundred dollars? two hundred? one thousand? one million? To some people ten thousand dollars might seem a reasonable expense to pay to be viable in a video game to others three hundred might seem unreasonable but in both cases they're paying money to have a better chance of winning. The dollar amount is therefore irrelevant.

    No one ever once in 15 years that I can remember ever said that the game is pay to win because you have to buy expansions. That thought process never existed, even though expansions gave you more options. You had to buy Factions to get a Rit or a Sin, you couldn't play them in Guild Wars 1 without buying factions but no one called Factions pay to win. It's just misuse of a term.

    If in principle something is called "pay to win" because they have to "shell out money" to some degree or another in order to stay competitive then in principle all MMO games that sell expansions that offer clear advantages to those who buy them are engaging in "pay to win" to some extent or another. You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line in the sand to suit your own personal level of purchasing power. For you the usual cost of an expansion (60 dollars) might be nothing to spend on a video game but as I said earlier for others ten thousand dollars is nothing to spend on a video game. Would you call their spending habits "pay to win" and yours not? What is the difference except in nominal cost?

    No one calls WoW pay to win, even though every expansion that comes out allows you to beat people who don't have it. Just the way it is. But people don't use the term.

    Then they're being logically inconsistent and drawing a convenient arbitrary line in the sand that suits their own level of purchasing power. They can afford the cost of the expansions and so they have no issues with paying for them but they're still paying for a clear advantage over someone who doesn't buy them whether they realize it or not. In the case of GW2 the advantage of those who buy the expansions versus those who do not is enormous. Just because you can afford to pay for that advantage doesn't make it any less of an advantage. A rose by any other name.

    By interpreting it literally you're simply removing it's meaning. By your definition I can find pay to win elements in every single MMO in existence, which one would think would limit the usefulness of the term. By using it to describe all MMOs, how are you actually adding to the conversation?

    I'm not removing its meaning I'm simply removing its arbitrary boundaries and applying it consistently across the board wherever I think the principle conditions are met.

    Indeed all MMOs I've played have been pay to win to some extent or another. GW2 included. The difference between games is the degree to which are they pay to win and the nominal cost of the buy in so to speak. I can afford the cost of the buy in for gw2 I cannot afford the buy in cost of a game like BDO or AA where it might cost thousands of dollars to be competitive but then there are games like EVE where I've heard that some people have been willing to drop tens of thousands of dollars to be competitive. It's all pay to win but it exists on a spectrum. Relative to other games the buy in for gw2 is much more affordable for someone like me but I'm still paying money on a regular basis to stay competitive.

    Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness.

    It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is.

    Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness.

    Ok well with all due respect I personally think that anecdotal experience, whether yours or mine, is largely irrelevant in a discussion like this. If you accept the semantic framework of what people are trying to say when they talk about "pay to win" then I think you must concede that there's some amount of it present in almost all games, including GW2.

    The term "pay to win" might lose some of its sting as a pejorative to be leveled at a game once people realize that almost all games involve some amount of pay to win but so what? It's a largely nebulous insult that's arbitrarily leveled at games by people who simply can't afford the buy in.

    It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is.

    I don't think the frequency of the purchases matters I think what matters is the competitive advantage the purchases are intended to bestow upon the purchaser regardless of the frequency or nominal dollar value of said purchases.

    So for instance let's say you're playing Archeage and you're trying to get the BiS gear for two years and then someone comes along and spends 20k over a handful of purchases to have all the BiS gear you've been working towards that entire time and now he vastly outgears you despite having done none of the in game work you have done to try acquire the same gear and this gives him a significant competitive advantage over you and anyone else he outgears (which is probably almost everyone) that he wouldn't have had otherwise. He doesn't have to keep making purchases after that point to maintain that enormous advantage until someone either spends more than he did to get the next best thing or alternatively someone gets very very very lucky through in game means (which in that game was extremely time consuming to even attempt.)

    Still you would presumably call that "pay to win" right? If so then I think it's clear that what you would be calling out as "pay to win" would fundamentally be the use of real money purchases to attempt to gain in game competitive advantages regardless of frequency of purchases or nominal dollar amount of said purchases. If you wouldn't call that "pay to win" then why not?

    Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way.

    The point to me is that every single MMO I've ever played has been p2w to some degree or another and for me to pretend otherwise would be intellectually disingenuous on my part and I'd rather be honest about what I think than lie and attempt to perform the mental gymnastics required to try to preserve a gaming pejorative that frankly seems messy to me to begin with.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness.

    Ok well with all due respect I personally think that anecdotal experience, whether yours or mine, is largely irrelevant in a discussion like this. If you accept the semantic framework of what people are trying to say when they talk about "pay to win" then I think you must concede that there's some amount of it present in almost all games, including GW2.

    The term "pay to win" might lose some of its sting as a pejorative to be leveled at a game once people realize that almost all games involve some amount of pay to win but so what? It's a largely nebulous insult that's arbitrarily leveled at games by people who simply can't afford the buy in.

    It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is.

    I don't think the frequency of the purchases matters I think what matters is the competitive advantage the purchases are intended to bestow upon the purchaser regardless of the frequency or nominal dollar value of said purchases.

    So for instance let's say you're playing Archeage and you're trying to get the BiS gear for two years and then someone comes along and spends 20k over a handful of purchases to have all the BiS gear you've been working towards that entire time and now he vastly outgears you despite having done none of the in game work you have done to try acquire the same gear and this gives him a significant competitive advantage over you and anyone else he outgears (which is probably almost everyone) that he wouldn't have had otherwise. He doesn't have to keep making purchases after that point to maintain that enormous advantage until someone either spends more than he did to get the next best thing or alternatively someone gets very very very lucky through in game means (which in that game was extremely time consuming to even attempt.)

    Still you would presumably call that "pay to win" right? If so then I think it's clear that what you would be calling out as "pay to win" would fundamentally be the use of real money purchases to attempt to gain in game competitive advantages regardless of frequency of purchases or nominal dollar amount of said purchases. If you wouldn't call that "pay to win" then why not?

    Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way.

    The point to me is that every single MMO I've ever played has been p2w to some degree or another and for me to pretend otherwise would be intellectually disingenuous on my part and I'd rather be honest about what I think than lie and attempt to perform the mental gymnastics required to try to preserve a gaming pejorative that frankly seems messy to me to begin with.

    There needs to be a line drawn between legit games that don't sell power in the cash shop, and games that do. You need a term to represent that. Up until now, that term has been pay to win. Redefining it serves no purpose whatsoever.

    As for annecdotal experience, sure it's all annecdotal. It's all 15 years and probably hundreds of conversations. It's not like one thing that happened one time. If you weren't there, there's no way you can confirm or not confirm what I'm saying but it doesn't really matter. Go back in time and try to find people talking about expacs as pay to win if you like.

    Either way I'm done with this conversation, I've said my piece.

  • I'm not sure how serious this post actually is but I think the amount of classes that can do well without elite specs (warr, guard, thief, maybe ele for example) show that core accounts can be just as competitive as account with expansions. I have both and regularly play core warrior /shrug

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game.

    If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2

    Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version.
    I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now.

    Correct, your version (Vanilla Gw2) of the game went Free to Play years ago, did you expect the development of the original game to go unto perpetuity?

    Its like buying a ticket on a boat. You get 1/2 across the river and they ask for the same amount again. If you don't pay people start calling you a free loader.

    You got your trip though, now that ticket is toilet paper.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • I’d rather have them keep the elite specializations at the same power level as core. I have plenty of income to spend but I try to spend the least amount possible in this game since I’m not happy with balance. It was pretty obvious what they did to the HOT specs:

    • Nerf unhindered combant for Daredevil
    • Nerf Tempest damage
    • Nerf sustain for Berserker
    • Nerf Reaper shroud

    They don’t need power creep to get me to buy the expansion. I have 14 level 80s and would be willing to invest in the game to have more play options, but I have little goodwill left for this game.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • All games use power creep for sales it’s too bad they try to manipulate the player base instead of trying to create the best game possible...

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness.

    Ok well with all due respect I personally think that anecdotal experience, whether yours or mine, is largely irrelevant in a discussion like this. If you accept the semantic framework of what people are trying to say when they talk about "pay to win" then I think you must concede that there's some amount of it present in almost all games, including GW2.

    The term "pay to win" might lose some of its sting as a pejorative to be leveled at a game once people realize that almost all games involve some amount of pay to win but so what? It's a largely nebulous insult that's arbitrarily leveled at games by people who simply can't afford the buy in.

    It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is.

    I don't think the frequency of the purchases matters I think what matters is the competitive advantage the purchases are intended to bestow upon the purchaser regardless of the frequency or nominal dollar value of said purchases.

    So for instance let's say you're playing Archeage and you're trying to get the BiS gear for two years and then someone comes along and spends 20k over a handful of purchases to have all the BiS gear you've been working towards that entire time and now he vastly outgears you despite having done none of the in game work you have done to try acquire the same gear and this gives him a significant competitive advantage over you and anyone else he outgears (which is probably almost everyone) that he wouldn't have had otherwise. He doesn't have to keep making purchases after that point to maintain that enormous advantage until someone either spends more than he did to get the next best thing or alternatively someone gets very very very lucky through in game means (which in that game was extremely time consuming to even attempt.)

    Still you would presumably call that "pay to win" right? If so then I think it's clear that what you would be calling out as "pay to win" would fundamentally be the use of real money purchases to attempt to gain in game competitive advantages regardless of frequency of purchases or nominal dollar amount of said purchases. If you wouldn't call that "pay to win" then why not?

    Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way.

    The point to me is that every single MMO I've ever played has been p2w to some degree or another and for me to pretend otherwise would be intellectually disingenuous on my part and I'd rather be honest about what I think than lie and attempt to perform the mental gymnastics required to try to preserve a gaming pejorative that frankly seems messy to me to begin with.

    It seems to me you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing. If every game you have ever played is pay to win, then the way you use the term has no meaning. If every game ever played was pay to win, why would the term even be brought up? We are obviously discussing something different. Now, if you choose to open your eyes and realize this discussion is about something different than your self imposed literal definition, then maybe you would have something meaningful to add.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MachineManXX.9746 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness.

    Ok well with all due respect I personally think that anecdotal experience, whether yours or mine, is largely irrelevant in a discussion like this. If you accept the semantic framework of what people are trying to say when they talk about "pay to win" then I think you must concede that there's some amount of it present in almost all games, including GW2.

    The term "pay to win" might lose some of its sting as a pejorative to be leveled at a game once people realize that almost all games involve some amount of pay to win but so what? It's a largely nebulous insult that's arbitrarily leveled at games by people who simply can't afford the buy in.

    It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is.

    I don't think the frequency of the purchases matters I think what matters is the competitive advantage the purchases are intended to bestow upon the purchaser regardless of the frequency or nominal dollar value of said purchases.

    So for instance let's say you're playing Archeage and you're trying to get the BiS gear for two years and then someone comes along and spends 20k over a handful of purchases to have all the BiS gear you've been working towards that entire time and now he vastly outgears you despite having done none of the in game work you have done to try acquire the same gear and this gives him a significant competitive advantage over you and anyone else he outgears (which is probably almost everyone) that he wouldn't have had otherwise. He doesn't have to keep making purchases after that point to maintain that enormous advantage until someone either spends more than he did to get the next best thing or alternatively someone gets very very very lucky through in game means (which in that game was extremely time consuming to even attempt.)

    Still you would presumably call that "pay to win" right? If so then I think it's clear that what you would be calling out as "pay to win" would fundamentally be the use of real money purchases to attempt to gain in game competitive advantages regardless of frequency of purchases or nominal dollar amount of said purchases. If you wouldn't call that "pay to win" then why not?

    Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way.

    The point to me is that every single MMO I've ever played has been p2w to some degree or another and for me to pretend otherwise would be intellectually disingenuous on my part and I'd rather be honest about what I think than lie and attempt to perform the mental gymnastics required to try to preserve a gaming pejorative that frankly seems messy to me to begin with.

    It seems to me you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing. If every game you have ever played is pay to win, then the way you use the term has no meaning. If every game ever played was pay to win, why would the term even be brought up? We are obviously discussing something different. Now, if you choose to open your eyes and realize this discussion is about something different than your self imposed literal definition, then maybe you would have something meaningful to add.

    I'm essentially just agreeing with the op about the xpacs being pay to win. Maybe read the thread next time before posting in a thread just a suggestion.

    With pay to win in mmos the difference is always in the degree which is where people draw arbitrary lines in the sand depending on their own purchasing power and relative willingness to spend money on a given game. As I said before some people have no problem spending thousands on a game whereas others might draw the line at a hundred dollars. Gw2 has what I consider to be very affordable pay to win expansions but for some it might be too expensive.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Aleen.8561 said:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

    Good post to bump. This is a buy to play game. If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

    Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

    You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.

    Other players with better skills is not new content. Therte is NO new content for a WvW player. That is why. Period end of story. With that logic they could have just removed skills from non-upgraded accounts and then you'd be saying I was playing new content because I bought back my skills....get a clue.

    Here's what I'm hearing. "I am entitled to everything regardless of whether I support the game at all." Expacs, and new content are generally something ALL games put out in order to raise new revenue. You don't want the new content? Great. Core Warrior, Core Thief, Core Mesmer, Core Guard, Core Ranger, etc are all still playable, usable, and can be strong if played well. You want a buy to play game that you don't have to buy. This is not happening, and complaining about it makes you look foolish.

This discussion has been closed.
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